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On September 12 2012 10:16 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:14 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us" His entire rant was a response to the criticism of the idea that EG players sacrificing being better players in order to put this content out there. If you really think that these sorts of things are the only gap between being incontrol and being MVP then I don't know what to tell you. You are taking one simple sentance of something he said to drive a point home and trying to start an argument about it. I dont understand. I'm trying to start a discussion, because that didn't happen on the show. If people are so interested in discussing the inner workings of the esports industry, this is a perfect topic to debate. Every time it comes up, though, EG has the definitive answer (the stephano video, Incontrol filibustering on ITG...). It's boring and completely transparent. Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:15 walklightwhat wrote:On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - MarineKing (same thing - reddit loves him but there's no weekly marineking youtube series) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. To imply that all these people are 'dry as shit' is more xenophobic western esports talk, basically. If the korean audience cared more about marketing than gameplay, there would be a marineking sitcom airing every night of the week. It's been said a million times, but it's a cultural difference. Top korean players aren't incapable of performing for cameras and that side of things...they just don't care about it and don't need to. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us" Koreans don't care about performing for cameras? Quick, pass on a memo that ceremonies and manner mules and all that are now banned. Firebathero went dancing on the beach after he won a tournament.
He wasn't responding about the "inner working of the esports industry" or w/e sidetrack you want to concentrate on. Like I said, and what should be obvious, is that he was extrapolating on Idra's response to the criticism that EG players are somehow sacrificing tournament results in order to do these things, for their fans, for their team, and for their sponsors. I dont understand you. If you wanted to ask a more specific question then call in. What kind of answer were you expecting?
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On September 12 2012 10:16 CEPEHDREI wrote:
weird all the EG koreans are dry as shit as well
Good point.
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On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - MarineKing (same thing - reddit loves him but there's no weekly marineking youtube series) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. To imply that all these people are 'dry as shit' is more xenophobic western esports talk, basically. If the korean audience cared more about marketing than gameplay, there would be a marineking sitcom airing every night of the week. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us"
guess who has more money, eg or team mvp? guess whos more accomplished, drg or any 1 of our players? and drg is more relateable than most koreans because he speaks english well and is a funny nice guy. doesnt matter. having your logo on the shirt of a player winning a tournament is really good, until 2 months later when the entire community forgets it and focuses on the new player whos on a hot streak. but people are still talking about videos we made a year ago, they see us and interact with us every single week even when we're going through the periodic slumps that every single player goes through. is nestea performing as well as he used to? nope. are people talking about him being washed up or not putting in enough effort? nope. but he also doesnt get nearly as much attention as he used to.
viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean, and only players like mc and mkp who are more likeable and personable help that at all. most koreans are dry as shit. the ones you listed are actually exceptions, and many of them still arent as liked by the community as a whole as big western names.
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On September 12 2012 10:18 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:17 walklightwhat wrote:On September 12 2012 10:16 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:14 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us" His entire rant was a response to the criticism of the idea that EG players sacrificing being better players in order to put this content out there. If you really think that these sorts of things are the only gap between being incontrol and being MVP then I don't know what to tell you. You are taking one simple sentance of something he said to drive a point home and trying to start an argument about it. I dont understand. I'm trying to start a discussion, because that didn't happen on the show. If people are so interested in discussing the inner workings of the esports industry, this is a perfect topic to debate. Every time it comes up, though, EG has the definitive answer (the stephano video, Incontrol filibustering on ITG...). It's boring and completely transparent. On September 12 2012 10:15 walklightwhat wrote:On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - MarineKing (same thing - reddit loves him but there's no weekly marineking youtube series) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. To imply that all these people are 'dry as shit' is more xenophobic western esports talk, basically. If the korean audience cared more about marketing than gameplay, there would be a marineking sitcom airing every night of the week. It's been said a million times, but it's a cultural difference. Top korean players aren't incapable of performing for cameras and that side of things...they just don't care about it and don't need to. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us" Koreans don't care about performing for cameras? Quick, pass on a memo that ceremonies and manner mules and all that are now banned. Firebathero went dancing on the beach after he won a tournament. He performed for a camera. Yes, after he won a tournament. He excelled at his craft, and then celebrated. He didn't just celebrate nothing and try to hang out with the other guys winning tournaments like he's their equal.
And he cared about performing for the camera. I don't care about any of your other drivel.
Saying Koreans don't care about -content- is bullshit.
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On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - MarineKing (same thing - reddit loves him but there's no weekly marineking youtube series) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. To imply that all these people are 'dry as shit' is more xenophobic western esports talk, basically. If the korean audience cared more about marketing than gameplay, there would be a marineking sitcom airing every night of the week. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us" guess who has more money, eg or team mvp? guess whos more accomplished, drg or any 1 of our players? and drg is more relateable than most koreans because he speaks english well and is a funny nice guy. doesnt matter. having your logo on the shirt of a player winning a tournament is really good, until 2 months later when the entire community forgets it and focuses on the new player whos on a hot streak. but people are still talking about videos we made a year ago, they see us and interact with us every single week even when we're going through the periodic slumps that every single player goes through. is nestea performing as well as he used to? nope. are people talking about him being washed up or not putting in enough effort? nope. but he also doesnt get nearly as much attention as he used to. viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean, and only players like mc and mkp who are more likeable and personable help that at all. most koreans are dry as shit. the ones you listed are actually exceptions, and many of them still arent as liked by the community as a whole as big western names.
I understand that part of making it a career is being liked and promoting yourself. However, I think EG especially puts too much focus on talking about that (how you promote yourselves, how/why it's successful, and so on). This post is a perfect example. It's hard to express, but it just seems out of place to be lecturing on business models and stuff like that.
Do you wish that all the korean teams (all teams?) followed in EG's steps? Do you think they can? Do you think there's a place for less marketing-driven esports careers? Success has a different meaning to different people, but it seems like that isn't being put across to viewers..
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did i imagine hearing that energy drink story? either way someone needs to get checked.
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Hey guys, it appears that the baneling is a bad unit in Sc2 since it's require no micro, it's just an a-move unit.
Srsly, I think that the warhound is too good, but not because it's a-move unit, but because it has too long range. Terran already have to micro way more than both the races, I think the warhound will be great for terran if they just reduce the range.
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On September 12 2012 10:28 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - MarineKing (same thing - reddit loves him but there's no weekly marineking youtube series) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. To imply that all these people are 'dry as shit' is more xenophobic western esports talk, basically. If the korean audience cared more about marketing than gameplay, there would be a marineking sitcom airing every night of the week. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us" guess who has more money, eg or team mvp? guess whos more accomplished, drg or any 1 of our players? and drg is more relateable than most koreans because he speaks english well and is a funny nice guy. doesnt matter. having your logo on the shirt of a player winning a tournament is really good, until 2 months later when the entire community forgets it and focuses on the new player whos on a hot streak. but people are still talking about videos we made a year ago, they see us and interact with us every single week even when we're going through the periodic slumps that every single player goes through. is nestea performing as well as he used to? nope. are people talking about him being washed up or not putting in enough effort? nope. but he also doesnt get nearly as much attention as he used to. viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean, and only players like mc and mkp who are more likeable and personable help that at all. most koreans are dry as shit. the ones you listed are actually exceptions, and many of them still arent as liked by the community as a whole as big western names. I understand that part of making it a career is being liked and promoting yourself. However, I think EG especially puts too much focus on talking about that (how you promote yourselves, how/why it's successful, and so on). This post is a perfect example. Do you wish that all the korean teams (all teams?) followed in EG's steps? Do you think they can? Do you think there's a place for less marketing-driven esports careers? Success has a different meaning to different people, but it seems like that isn't being put across to viewers..
EG's business model creates a self-sustaining organization where players are paid wages that keep them in SC2, without relying on venture capital or other "loan" type investments.
Sports careers in general are market-driven. Tennis players get a fraction of their money from tournament winnings, and the vast majority from commercials and endorsements. Same with race-car drivers, Olympic athletes, and essentially every professional in an individual sport. Team sports, they rely on selling on stadiums and selling tons and tons of T-Shirts and foam hands.
Teams don't market well, then they don't have money, and that's all there is to it.
On September 12 2012 10:33 M7Jagger wrote:
Hey guys, it appears that the baneling is a bad unit in Sc2 since it's require no micro, it's just an a-move unit.
Have you actually tried A-moving Banelings? That's the worst thing you could ever do.
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On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:
viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean
while foreigner vs foreigner doesnt even have an audience.
Its korean vs foreigner -> korean vs korean -> foreinger vs foreigner.
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and the only reason korean vs foreigner > korean vs korean is because there's a ton of naive people who are hoping that their great white hope defeats the korean player.
Gameplay wise kroean vs korean is still the best.
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On September 12 2012 10:34 CEPEHDREI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:
viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean
while foreigner vs foreigner doesnt even have an audience. Its korean vs foreigner -> korean vs korean -> foreinger vs foreigner.
Yeah, TSL3 finals vs TSL4 finals makes this statement obv..... wait a minute...
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On September 12 2012 10:38 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:34 CEPEHDREI wrote:On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:
viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean
while foreigner vs foreigner doesnt even have an audience. Its korean vs foreigner -> korean vs korean -> foreinger vs foreigner. Yeah, TSL3 finals vs TSL4 finals makes this statement obv..... wait a minute...
tsl3 was the first sc2 tsl.
There are less ppl who like f vs f than k vs k.
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On September 12 2012 10:39 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:38 seiferoth10 wrote:On September 12 2012 10:34 CEPEHDREI wrote:On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:
viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean
while foreigner vs foreigner doesnt even have an audience. Its korean vs foreigner -> korean vs korean -> foreinger vs foreigner. Yeah, TSL3 finals vs TSL4 finals makes this statement obv..... wait a minute... tsl3 was the first sc2 tsl. There are less ppl who like f vs f than k vs k.
Mana vs Dimaga was quite popular.
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On September 12 2012 10:34 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:28 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - MarineKing (same thing - reddit loves him but there's no weekly marineking youtube series) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. To imply that all these people are 'dry as shit' is more xenophobic western esports talk, basically. If the korean audience cared more about marketing than gameplay, there would be a marineking sitcom airing every night of the week. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us" guess who has more money, eg or team mvp? guess whos more accomplished, drg or any 1 of our players? and drg is more relateable than most koreans because he speaks english well and is a funny nice guy. doesnt matter. having your logo on the shirt of a player winning a tournament is really good, until 2 months later when the entire community forgets it and focuses on the new player whos on a hot streak. but people are still talking about videos we made a year ago, they see us and interact with us every single week even when we're going through the periodic slumps that every single player goes through. is nestea performing as well as he used to? nope. are people talking about him being washed up or not putting in enough effort? nope. but he also doesnt get nearly as much attention as he used to. viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean, and only players like mc and mkp who are more likeable and personable help that at all. most koreans are dry as shit. the ones you listed are actually exceptions, and many of them still arent as liked by the community as a whole as big western names. I understand that part of making it a career is being liked and promoting yourself. However, I think EG especially puts too much focus on talking about that (how you promote yourselves, how/why it's successful, and so on). This post is a perfect example. Do you wish that all the korean teams (all teams?) followed in EG's steps? Do you think they can? Do you think there's a place for less marketing-driven esports careers? Success has a different meaning to different people, but it seems like that isn't being put across to viewers.. EG's business model creates a self-sustaining organization where players are paid wages that keep them in SC2, without relying on venture capital or other "loan" type investments. Sports careers in general are market-driven. Tennis players get a fraction of their money from tournament winnings, and the vast majority from commercials and endorsements. Same with race-car drivers, Olympic athletes, and essentially every professional in an individual sport. Team sports, they rely on selling on stadiums and selling tons and tons of T-Shirts and foam hands. Teams don't market well, then they don't have money, and that's all there is to it.
I agree with all of this, but I also think there's an underlying ethical issue.
MVP and Incontrol are both marketed as 'pro gamers'. However, what they do in their roles is completely different.
There are tons of sports heroes who do commercials and interviews, yes...but most of them continue to excel at their craft while doing this. That or they're billed as "former ..." ("former GSL champion", as opposed to "professional gamer"). There are also people (like Rodney Mullen) who excel at their craft while being humble, soft-spoken and not at all focused on "growing their brand" (and yet they do).
For me, money/sponsorships/branding isn't interesting. I don't understand it (in the sense that I haven't studied it deeply, and don't want to take what people say for granted), and it doesn't impact how I enjoy esports. I just want to see good games from people who play the game way better than me and love to do that. I'm not entertained by how somebody can talk for hours about how cool their manager's business plan is. Clearly lots of people are, but it still seems creepy and braindead.
On September 12 2012 10:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:39 rysecake wrote:On September 12 2012 10:38 seiferoth10 wrote:On September 12 2012 10:34 CEPEHDREI wrote:On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:
viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean
while foreigner vs foreigner doesnt even have an audience. Its korean vs foreigner -> korean vs korean -> foreinger vs foreigner. Yeah, TSL3 finals vs TSL4 finals makes this statement obv..... wait a minute... tsl3 was the first sc2 tsl. There are less ppl who like f vs f than k vs k. Mana vs Dimaga was quite popular.
Mana and Dimaga are perfect examples of non-koreans who don't act in commercials, aren't at the absolute top of the game, and mostly just play SC2. Get someone from their organizations to explain why they don't make as many videos as EG. It would be legitimately interesting to hear.
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On September 12 2012 10:43 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:34 WolfintheSheep wrote:On September 12 2012 10:28 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - MarineKing (same thing - reddit loves him but there's no weekly marineking youtube series) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. To imply that all these people are 'dry as shit' is more xenophobic western esports talk, basically. If the korean audience cared more about marketing than gameplay, there would be a marineking sitcom airing every night of the week. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us" guess who has more money, eg or team mvp? guess whos more accomplished, drg or any 1 of our players? and drg is more relateable than most koreans because he speaks english well and is a funny nice guy. doesnt matter. having your logo on the shirt of a player winning a tournament is really good, until 2 months later when the entire community forgets it and focuses on the new player whos on a hot streak. but people are still talking about videos we made a year ago, they see us and interact with us every single week even when we're going through the periodic slumps that every single player goes through. is nestea performing as well as he used to? nope. are people talking about him being washed up or not putting in enough effort? nope. but he also doesnt get nearly as much attention as he used to. viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean, and only players like mc and mkp who are more likeable and personable help that at all. most koreans are dry as shit. the ones you listed are actually exceptions, and many of them still arent as liked by the community as a whole as big western names. I understand that part of making it a career is being liked and promoting yourself. However, I think EG especially puts too much focus on talking about that (how you promote yourselves, how/why it's successful, and so on). This post is a perfect example. Do you wish that all the korean teams (all teams?) followed in EG's steps? Do you think they can? Do you think there's a place for less marketing-driven esports careers? Success has a different meaning to different people, but it seems like that isn't being put across to viewers.. EG's business model creates a self-sustaining organization where players are paid wages that keep them in SC2, without relying on venture capital or other "loan" type investments. Sports careers in general are market-driven. Tennis players get a fraction of their money from tournament winnings, and the vast majority from commercials and endorsements. Same with race-car drivers, Olympic athletes, and essentially every professional in an individual sport. Team sports, they rely on selling on stadiums and selling tons and tons of T-Shirts and foam hands. Teams don't market well, then they don't have money, and that's all there is to it. I agree with all of this, but I also think there's an underlying ethical issue. MVP and Incontrol are both marketed as 'pro gamers'. However, what they do in their roles is completely different. There are tons of sports heroes who do commercials and interviews, yes...but most of them continue to excel at their craft while doing this. That or they're billed as "former ..." ("former GSL champion", as opposed to "professional gamer"). There are also people (like Rodney Mullen) who excel at their craft while being humble, soft-spoken and not at all focused on "growing their brand" (and yet they do). For me, money/sponsorships/branding isn't interesting. I don't understand it (in the sense that I haven't studied it deeply, and don't want to take what people say for granted), and it doesn't impact how I enjoy esports. I just want to see good games from people who play the game way better than me and love to do that. I'm not entertained by how somebody can talk for hours about how cool their manager's business plan is. Clearly lots of people are, but it still seems creepy and braindead.
Ah, so we finally got to the root of the issue. EG doesn't conform to your vision of what an e-sports organization should do, and yet they're doing fine and that angers you to no end.
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On September 12 2012 10:47 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:43 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:34 WolfintheSheep wrote:On September 12 2012 10:28 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - MarineKing (same thing - reddit loves him but there's no weekly marineking youtube series) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. To imply that all these people are 'dry as shit' is more xenophobic western esports talk, basically. If the korean audience cared more about marketing than gameplay, there would be a marineking sitcom airing every night of the week. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us" guess who has more money, eg or team mvp? guess whos more accomplished, drg or any 1 of our players? and drg is more relateable than most koreans because he speaks english well and is a funny nice guy. doesnt matter. having your logo on the shirt of a player winning a tournament is really good, until 2 months later when the entire community forgets it and focuses on the new player whos on a hot streak. but people are still talking about videos we made a year ago, they see us and interact with us every single week even when we're going through the periodic slumps that every single player goes through. is nestea performing as well as he used to? nope. are people talking about him being washed up or not putting in enough effort? nope. but he also doesnt get nearly as much attention as he used to. viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean, and only players like mc and mkp who are more likeable and personable help that at all. most koreans are dry as shit. the ones you listed are actually exceptions, and many of them still arent as liked by the community as a whole as big western names. I understand that part of making it a career is being liked and promoting yourself. However, I think EG especially puts too much focus on talking about that (how you promote yourselves, how/why it's successful, and so on). This post is a perfect example. Do you wish that all the korean teams (all teams?) followed in EG's steps? Do you think they can? Do you think there's a place for less marketing-driven esports careers? Success has a different meaning to different people, but it seems like that isn't being put across to viewers.. EG's business model creates a self-sustaining organization where players are paid wages that keep them in SC2, without relying on venture capital or other "loan" type investments. Sports careers in general are market-driven. Tennis players get a fraction of their money from tournament winnings, and the vast majority from commercials and endorsements. Same with race-car drivers, Olympic athletes, and essentially every professional in an individual sport. Team sports, they rely on selling on stadiums and selling tons and tons of T-Shirts and foam hands. Teams don't market well, then they don't have money, and that's all there is to it. I agree with all of this, but I also think there's an underlying ethical issue. MVP and Incontrol are both marketed as 'pro gamers'. However, what they do in their roles is completely different. There are tons of sports heroes who do commercials and interviews, yes...but most of them continue to excel at their craft while doing this. That or they're billed as "former ..." ("former GSL champion", as opposed to "professional gamer"). There are also people (like Rodney Mullen) who excel at their craft while being humble, soft-spoken and not at all focused on "growing their brand" (and yet they do). For me, money/sponsorships/branding isn't interesting. I don't understand it (in the sense that I haven't studied it deeply, and don't want to take what people say for granted), and it doesn't impact how I enjoy esports. I just want to see good games from people who play the game way better than me and love to do that. I'm not entertained by how somebody can talk for hours about how cool their manager's business plan is. Clearly lots of people are, but it still seems creepy and braindead. Ah, so we finally got to the root of the issue. EG doesn't conform to your vision of what an e-sports organization should do, and yet they're doing fine and that angers you to no end.
Nope, that's not it. It's that the talk show about esports didn't address anything but EG's way of doing things. It was used as a forum to say (without any dissent/discussion) that anyone who disagrees with EG's "business model" is simply wrong. Again, it's intellectually dishonest to simply say "MVP is dry as shit, and this is why people don't like him as much as EG" and close the book on a big open topic.
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On September 12 2012 10:43 yeastiality wrote:
I agree with all of this, but I also think there's an underlying ethical issue.
MVP and Incontrol are both marketed as 'pro gamers'. However, what they do in their roles is completely different.
There are tons of sports heroes who do commercials and interviews, yes...but most of them continue to excel at their craft while doing this. That or they're billed as "former ..." ("former GSL champion", as opposed to "professional gamer"). There are also people (like Rodney Mullen) who excel at their craft while being humble, soft-spoken and not at all focused on "growing their brand" (and yet they do).
For me, money/sponsorships/branding isn't interesting. I don't understand it (in the sense that I haven't studied it deeply, and don't want to take what people say for granted), and it doesn't impact how I enjoy esports. I just want to see good games from people who play the game way better than me and love to do that. I'm not entertained by how somebody can talk for hours about how cool their manager's business plan is. Clearly lots of people are, but it still seems creepy and braindead.
There are plenty of pro athletes who have no accomplishments, but are well known names purely on hype and advertising. Michelle Wie and Anna Kournikova, for example.
On September 12 2012 10:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Mana and Dimaga are perfect examples of non-koreans who don't act in commercials, aren't at the absolute top of the game, and mostly just play SC2. Get someone from their organizations to explain why they don't make as many videos as EG. It would be legitimately interesting to hear.
And Mouz and mTw are also perfect examples of foreign teams that can't retain players because of money.
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On September 12 2012 10:28 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - MarineKing (same thing - reddit loves him but there's no weekly marineking youtube series) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. To imply that all these people are 'dry as shit' is more xenophobic western esports talk, basically. If the korean audience cared more about marketing than gameplay, there would be a marineking sitcom airing every night of the week. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us" guess who has more money, eg or team mvp? guess whos more accomplished, drg or any 1 of our players? and drg is more relateable than most koreans because he speaks english well and is a funny nice guy. doesnt matter. having your logo on the shirt of a player winning a tournament is really good, until 2 months later when the entire community forgets it and focuses on the new player whos on a hot streak. but people are still talking about videos we made a year ago, they see us and interact with us every single week even when we're going through the periodic slumps that every single player goes through. is nestea performing as well as he used to? nope. are people talking about him being washed up or not putting in enough effort? nope. but he also doesnt get nearly as much attention as he used to. viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean, and only players like mc and mkp who are more likeable and personable help that at all. most koreans are dry as shit. the ones you listed are actually exceptions, and many of them still arent as liked by the community as a whole as big western names. I understand that part of making it a career is being liked and promoting yourself. However, I think EG especially puts too much focus on talking about that (how you promote yourselves, how/why it's successful, and so on). This post is a perfect example. It's hard to express, but it just seems out of place to be lecturing on business models and stuff like that. Do you wish that all the korean teams (all teams?) followed in EG's steps? Do you think they can? Do you think there's a place for less marketing-driven esports careers? Success has a different meaning to different people, but it seems like that isn't being put across to viewers..
if idiots dont understand something and their views annoy me enough i will correct them.
if you dont want us to talk about business models take the time to inform yourselves and stop pretending like an hour or two of videos a week means we can't practice sufficiently.
you also critique me posting about business and then ask me 3 questions about it. its not sustainable to just play for the vast,vast majority of progamers. you have to win a ridiculous amount for a long time for that to provide a career for you and there simply aren't that many things to win and its stupidly difficult to maintain that kind of performance over a period of time. most of the koreans make shit money because they dont bring a ton of exposure to their sponsors so they get almost no salaries, and theres not enough prize money to go around for everyone to be making a good living off of it.
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On September 12 2012 10:50 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 10:28 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:20 IdrA wrote:On September 12 2012 10:10 yeastiality wrote:On September 12 2012 10:07 Leth0 wrote:On September 12 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:
Did you seriously just say MVP is 'dry as shit'?
I know western esports is all about "growing your brand" and other buzzwords, but the dude is the king of SC2. You almost make it sound like it's more important to be a reddit celebrity than it is to excel at the game.
Uggghhh. There are a lot of people who think someone winning the GSL is a much bigger event than 100 new EG youtube videos. To basically declare that they're wrong and don't understand "business models" is really intellectually dishonest (reminder: you're on a talk show). Should probably get somebody on the show with a different perspective so it isn't all softballs! I have been watching the same show and I never heard him say that. Maybe you are reading into what he's saying in a way just so you can complain about it. He made a simple comment about MVP not doing the same type of content because he is "dry as shit". I happen to agree with him in the fact that, of the koreans, MVP doesn't come off as the most charismatic. Maybe someone like an MC. But you are assuming to much from one simple comment that was said in a pretty straightforward way. Well, maybe they should address more players than just MVP. Here, I'll list some people who are wildly successful in SC2 and don't "produce content": - Nestea - MVP - MC (he's a "personality" but doesn't spend time acting in commercials and go to great lengths to justify it) - MarineKing (same thing - reddit loves him but there's no weekly marineking youtube series) - Violet - Dongraegu - Boxer - .. To imply that all these people are 'dry as shit' is more xenophobic western esports talk, basically. If the korean audience cared more about marketing than gameplay, there would be a marineking sitcom airing every night of the week. The 'other side' to this topic is completely worth discussing, but instead it was just used as a springboard for EG promotion. Again, this is why you need someone from outside western esports. Put on Hwanni or Mr. Chae and see if they agree with what Incontrol said. Even if they do, I bet they would have a much more interesting way of explaining it than saying "actually, this is why EG is the best and everyone else wishes they were us" guess who has more money, eg or team mvp? guess whos more accomplished, drg or any 1 of our players? and drg is more relateable than most koreans because he speaks english well and is a funny nice guy. doesnt matter. having your logo on the shirt of a player winning a tournament is really good, until 2 months later when the entire community forgets it and focuses on the new player whos on a hot streak. but people are still talking about videos we made a year ago, they see us and interact with us every single week even when we're going through the periodic slumps that every single player goes through. is nestea performing as well as he used to? nope. are people talking about him being washed up or not putting in enough effort? nope. but he also doesnt get nearly as much attention as he used to. viewership of tournaments drops when it gets down to only korean vs korean, and only players like mc and mkp who are more likeable and personable help that at all. most koreans are dry as shit. the ones you listed are actually exceptions, and many of them still arent as liked by the community as a whole as big western names. I understand that part of making it a career is being liked and promoting yourself. However, I think EG especially puts too much focus on talking about that (how you promote yourselves, how/why it's successful, and so on). This post is a perfect example. It's hard to express, but it just seems out of place to be lecturing on business models and stuff like that. Do you wish that all the korean teams (all teams?) followed in EG's steps? Do you think they can? Do you think there's a place for less marketing-driven esports careers? Success has a different meaning to different people, but it seems like that isn't being put across to viewers.. if idiots dont understand something and their views annoy me enough i will correct them. if you dont want us to talk about business models take the time to inform yourselves and stop pretending like an hour or two of videos a week means we can't practice sufficiently. you also critique me posting about business and then ask me 3 questions about it. its not sustainable to just play for the vast,vast majority of progamers. you have to win a ridiculous amount for a long time for that to provide a career for you and there simply aren't that many things to win and its stupidly difficult to maintain that kind of performance over a period of time. most of the koreans make shit money because they dont bring a ton of exposure to their sponsors so they get almost no salaries, and theres not enough prize money to go around for everyone to be making a good living off of it.
Do you think this is the only way for esports to be sustainable? I'm asking questions like this because you guys have the insight to answer them.
There's basically a dichotomy between korean and non-korean players in this regard. I don't see anything like that in other sports. In golf or basketball, any player who can be promoted is promoted (regardless of how humble or dedicated to the craft they are). Is it just a phase that esports will pass as it becomes more mainstream? Is it a cultural difference that won't be changed? Someone else pointed out that "all the EG koreans are dry as shit too" - why?
I understand it's hard to win consistently, slump periods happen and so on. It's the same in any line of work (but you get grilled a lot more for it than I do). I find it weird to poke fun at it with a video like 'geniuses falling', though. Doesn't that kind of undercut the competitive mindset? It might be tough, but you should want to be disappointed in losing. I know the intent is to call out people who act like nobody on EG ever wins anything, but it seems like a bad precedent to set..
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how is correcting people who are incorrect a bad precedent? and how does the video preclude being disappointed with poor performances?
the more money there is in tournaments and the bigger the community is the less need there is for players to make themselves marketable. but as is we're a niche community around a competition where performance is very difficult to sustain. that means you need to be able to draw consistant attention from a very, very big percentage of all the people interested in sc2, because theres not that many to begin with. and its very difficult to do this purely through fandom as people are pretty fickle about who theyre fans of. there is also a higher amount of understanding involved in appreciating a lot of the things that happen in a sc2 game as opposed to a traditional sport, most of our fans dont actually understand much about whats going on while we're playing. but its pretty easy to recognize and appreciate an amazing shot in tennis. another disadvantage is we dont really have built in home town hero fans. ya you get some based on nationality, but most american football fans are fans of the team that was local to them when they were growing up. we dont have that. so combine the fact that we have to draw attention from pretty much the entire community consistantly and the fact that its very hard for a player to actually be appreciated purely for being a player and ya, players are probably going to have to be entertainers if they want to make a good living off this until esports actually blows up and becomes a mainstream thing, if it does. and to get it to become mainstream we definitely need players as entertainers, as being interesting and cool beyond the gameplay is the easiest way to get casual viewers to take a look at the game.
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EPT
