On October 23 2011 03:50 EnclaveUSA wrote: What the problem? Terran lose mule (270 minerals later), protoss only from photons and from Robotics Bay. Why not zerg can't get it from spire?
But I want it from separate building.
Because spire is actually kind of slow to tech to. In fact, it's faster to tech to dt's than to tech to spire. That seems strange if mobile detection require spire tech. It's faster to tech to thors than it is to spire. And, of course, it's faster to tech to ravens than to mutas.
Imagine if terran's scan can't detect units. The raven would be rather slow to tech to, no? It would be a similar position for zerg, but only the detector would be even slower to tech to.
Consider that a lair takes 100 seconds to morph, and a spire takes another 100 seconds to morph, you can see that when a zerg spawning pool finishes, and when a protoss gateway finishes, the time it takes for a protoss to get a cybercore and then a robo and then a robotics facility is faster than it takes for zerg to get lair and spire up. Of course, making observers require robo-bay would be absurd not just in the resources required, but also in the time necessary. In fact, the cost to get the tech available for a muta and for a colossus is fairly equivalent. Spire costs 250/200, compared to 200/100 and 200/200, and then you have lair cost of 150/100. 400/300 in tech costs from spawning pool/gateway. Pretty absurd, no?
On October 23 2011 04:50 HiTeK532 wrote: I think the biggest problem will come ZvZ with burrowed move banelings .
Burrow is lair tech, though. I doubt banelings will be as relevant as they are in the early game when roaches hit the field. Unless you mean harassment, in which case spores.
This change doesn't harm Zerg in detection at all. It helps them late game and barely affects them early game. Like you said, Overseers are easy to deny. The Ocular Parasite can give any unit detection, meaning you don't have to make multiple Overseers, and you could use the ability on units that don't stick out much. You could even use it on a drone at an expansion with some Spine Crawlers for defense. Late game, detection is much better. Early game the only change is that the Spore Crawler went from highly recommended to necessary. It's not a big deal though, one Spore Crawler at the choke and you're set 'til Vipers hit the battlefield.
YOu can't possibly be having a conversation about worrying about Protoss detection units. We have TWO. Like thats it! As opposed to you're 3, which you can kill our observer with.. Look at Terran.. They shouldn't EVER lose to cloaked units or take near as much damage as any other race because they have an object that can SCAN a section of the map with a HUGE radius. This thread is so pointless.
On October 23 2011 05:23 Antares777 wrote: This change doesn't harm Zerg in detection at all. It helps them late game and barely affects them early game. Like you said, Overseers are easy to deny. The Ocular Parasite can give any unit detection, meaning you don't have to make multiple Overseers, and you could use the ability on units that don't stick out much. You could even use it on a drone at an expansion with some Spine Crawlers for defense. Late game, detection is much better. Early game the only change is that the Spore Crawler went from highly recommended to necessary. It's not a big deal though, one Spore Crawler at the choke and you're set 'til Vipers hit the battlefield.
ok so because overseers are easily denied and zerg looses them the scouting options are better??
it's kinda obvious that the scouting options get worse. a drone between spine crawlers to deny expansion might as well be a spore. so I can really think of any examples were the viper provides better scouting. none at all
On October 23 2011 05:23 Antares777 wrote: This change doesn't harm Zerg in detection at all. It helps them late game and barely affects them early game. Like you said, Overseers are easy to deny. The Ocular Parasite can give any unit detection, meaning you don't have to make multiple Overseers, and you could use the ability on units that don't stick out much. You could even use it on a drone at an expansion with some Spine Crawlers for defense. Late game, detection is much better. Early game the only change is that the Spore Crawler went from highly recommended to necessary. It's not a big deal though, one Spore Crawler at the choke and you're set 'til Vipers hit the battlefield.
2 port banshee.
make 3 banshees. go to opponents base, burst the 1-2 spores really quickly.
holy cow why was this bumped? u guys need to chill with the theory crafting. For god sakes the game doesnt even have a release date and you are all ready to jump all over it. You know how many patch and balance changes / units that will be added or removed in the game by the time it launches? Just chill and wait
On October 23 2011 06:21 BloodThirsty wrote: holy cow why was this bumped? u guys need to chill with the theory crafting. For god sakes the game doesnt even have a release date and you are all ready to jump all over it. You know how many patch and balance changes / units that will be added or removed in the game by the time it launches? Just chill and wait
But...but.. but that's all the low level players have left when they can't play the game at a high level. Don't take that away from them, please.
On October 23 2011 06:21 BloodThirsty wrote: holy cow why was this bumped? u guys need to chill with the theory crafting. For god sakes the game doesnt even have a release date and you are all ready to jump all over it. You know how many patch and balance changes / units that will be added or removed in the game by the time it launches? Just chill and wait
But...but.. but that's all the low level players have left when they can't play the game at a high level. Don't take that away from them, please.
I don't even play starcraft. still I like to talk about it.
I also don't play soccer and talk about it all the time, how good players are and stuff.
what's wrong with that?
and this thread was bumped because the zerg detection is changed significantly and now comes later. that's a fact and not theory crafting. or is that in any kind argueable?
Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem.
man you post like u read it all, but fail to read that the detection spell is a one use only spell.
so unless you invest like 1000 gas, you'll have to babysit the roach
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
Edit: Wow, it sounds like a LOT of people simply don't understand the new units. I don't know if the info hasn't been posted or people don't read, but I was at blizzcon and I'll clear some things up:
1. Viper is available as soon as lair done. It's very slow, and hatches from larva. It builds fairly quickly. There is a concern that, because of the 200 gas cost and having to hatch it, you can't scout in the early midgame with a prepositioned overlord. No idea what they plan to do about it, but right now zerg has no midgame scouting options. Flying an extremely slow viper of 200 gas over the opponents base is really dumb, and you'd have to slowly fly across the whole map. I get that overseer is bad, but they shouldn't completely remove the role, they should replace it. it DOES NOT need spire.
2. Burrow move banes are hivetech. Just like hydra speed. While these changes are super cool, it's not going to change the game dynamics. The viper, for example, may force ghosts, different play styles, more bunkers, et cetera. But hive tech is super late game, it gives options to zerg but this stuff comes too late to alter the course of a game, it only makes them more dynamic in end-game.
Which was never an issue. While I guess Ultra vs BL may be bland, Zerg's late game is mostly fine.
What I think Zerg needs:
1. As evidenced in Nestea vs MVP final game, zerg needs a way to deal with drops once mutas become less viable (thors, aoe, crazy lategame armies, need to have t3 units instead of t2, etc) and zerg is less mobile. Spines just absolutely don't cut it. I really hope we see something like what protoss got with the nexus (i've 'nexus-cannon' rushed so many people. You make a gateway like normal, then get a far pylon. Then make another pylon closer. You can now cannon rush witohut a forge rofl).
2. Lair tech. Zerg's problem is early and mid-game diversity and options (like what terran has i suppose), not end game. Make the hive stuff lair tech (obviously nerfs necessary) or make new stuff. I don't have any suggestions, it's just weird late game was buffed when late game z isn't the prob
How about giving the lair the changeling ability, and making changelings detectors? That way changelings can be used as early game detection, but not really viable late-game, which is where the viper comes in.
^NO ADDITIONAL BUILDINGS NEEDED FOR VIPER. AVAILABLE IMMEDIATELY AFTER LAIR IS DONE.
Swarm host = infestation pit. 2 units! (infestor) for the price of 1 tech building!
The point of the swarm host is to apply mild pressure to hardcore 2/3 base turtles. If you are owning the map, you put crappy swarm hosts out front. They won't do much, but annoying and the opponent has to deal with them somehow, as in move out or waste more in defense.
Why did zerg only get 2 units and the other races get 3, and protoss even get additional base abilities. wtf. no creep or base or queen stuff?
On October 23 2011 17:33 Belial88 wrote: You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
*blinks* There's some summary out there which says the Viper "gives its ocular eye" or whatever to a unit and that it's a one time cast. Where'd they pull that from I wonder...
Edit: Found it in a few places. Unfortunately none of them I've heard of.
EPT
