On April 26 2011 20:52 decaf wrote: I'm bumping quite an old thread but due to the removal of the overseer I think it might be time to start discussing things again.
I think the viper replacing the overseer brings along a couple of new problems. This is only based on theory though, but I'm fairly sure I'm right about it. One can only imagine that the Viper is further up the tech tree than the overseer.
this is probably wrong
I think we can all agree that a flying spell caster will at least be lair tech and probably need some kind of other building to be made.
no, I don't see that. Another building to be made to activate abilities probably, although I think it will be in the hydralisk den personally.
Now the overseer was Zerg's only mobile detection and it was essential when taking a third base vs DT play. You could not get the third up if you hadn't removed the DT that was waiting at the expansion. With the the removal of the overseer and the addition of the Viper I think Zergs now have to wait significantly longer in order to take that third.
Other problems like scouting difficulties that derive from not having that overseer will be left out for now. What do you guys think?
Hello!
I've been thinking a lot about Zerg detection lately and I have come across some minor things that bug me. This discussion is exclusively about the ZvP matchup, since you don't really need detection in ZvT / ZvZ. This isn't about DT rushes either, if you scout it in time you can get a spore crawler no prob.
First of all, let's take a look at what kind of detection capabilities Zerg got: Spore Crawler - Static defense that loses detection when unrooted; requires evo chamber; only hits air and costs 125 (including the drone) Overseer - Flying unit (fast but with crappy acceleration); costs 150 100; speed upgradeable Infestor Fungal Growth
In comparision the Protoss detectors: Cannon - Static defense; requires forge; hits both air and ground and costs 150 Oberserver - Flying unit; costs 25 75 (and more importantly robo build time), speed upgradeable
What would you need detection for in a ZvP as Zerg: DTs, Oberservers, hallucinated units and as Protoss: All kinds of burrowed units (especially roaches), creep
The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep. Burrowed Zerg units that are able to attack (lurker) are not a threat in sc2. Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable.
burrow banelings have an upgrade to move now. That will make them more deadly against stalkers and zealots. The new "lurker" is not like the broodwar lurker, it is an artillery unit.
The biggest threat as Zerg are DTs, which can be used as part of the protoss army or as harassing units - both, though the same unit, need different kind of defenses to be dealt with. Sure you can use Overseers and Spore Crawlers for both situations but that's rather suboptimal (especially the spore crawler vs DTs in army solution).
This is why the viper has an ability to attach parasites to friendly units to give them detection. It will be much harder for protoss to make the equivalent move of sniping overseers now.
Since we're talking about late game DTs usage here, there really isn't a timing for when they are gonna come - every toss likes to mix them in at different point in times and the early and mid game dictates the pace of the late game. This is a huge problem when dealing with DTs. As Zerg you have to prepare in advance in order not to be caught off guard. But it's hard to prepare when there are no timings so you cannot scout properly. You're left with planting spores and spines at all your expansions at random times when you feel it's time to do so. You need about 2 spores and 2 spines per base to deal with DT harass, which can be 12 to 16 drones in late game. But this is only a minor problem, he has to invest in DTs so I have to invest in static defenses to be safe.
vipers are ideal in this situation, because they provide detection both directly and by putting parasites in ground units which cannot be sniped by pheonix, but are also not a useless unit in the army, as they can be used to snipe immortals and colossi, and create no combat zones for stalkers. The viper is the ideal detection solution for DT mixed into the army situations.
The major problem I see is DTs being used as part of the protoss army. First of all it's very hard to figure that they are doing so, cuz DTs are kinda hard to see. If you know that there's a possibility of him doing that then oyu need something more mobile than static defenses - the Overseer. The Overseer is a fast, flying unit that got detection, however its acceleration is really bad. At this point I'd like to compare the Overseer to the mobile detection capabilites of Protoss for one more time. This time we're interested in how easy it is to deny those detectors. Overseer - Not cloacked, bad acceleration, expensive and takes a rather long time ro rebuild: Observer - Cloacked, Cheap (however uses up robo time)
The overseer is farily easy to kill, especially with blink. If the protoss has DTs out then he also has a reason to kill it, which is very important. The Overseer is also VERY key in dealing with offensive stuff like DTs. The observer is fairly hard to kill, it's cloacked and there's not really a reason to kill it (sure it can be nice, but not that important) and its only use is killing defensive abilities.
Everytime the Overseer dies (which is almost immediately due to blink) oyu have to remake it, which takes a pretty long time considering that DTs are out killing your army. You can get several of them simultaneously, but truth is, Overseers are not for free. I consider 150 100 quite a huge investment. Sure, DTs cost money too, but DTs are able to kill stuff as opposed to the Overseer.
Viper. All these problems solved.
Fungal Growth can be good to deal with DTs, especially if he caught you with your pants down and you got no spores at all. It's very situational though. If oyu run out of that very important FG that is meant to soften up his army then you will lose the straight up fight. HTs are also very good at feedbacking infestors and if you try to fungal DTs he brought along with his army then you will waste FGs on DTs and zealots, since the ranged units will be further back and thus out of range. FG can't really be the solution to cloacked units. It's more an emergency scan for Zerg.
Viper doesn't need energy to detect cloaked crap. He should have already casted his parasites well in advance.
I think Zerg detection is too weak to deal with late game DTs with blink. Overseers are too expensive, accelerate too slowly and are very easy to deny.
What do you think? Should Overlords get detection with lair or maybe with overlord speed? That way DT rushes would still be a viable option. Not sure what else Overseers would be useful for then.
edit: Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more: Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units. This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked. Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.
Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed). Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.
Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem.
man you post like u read it all, but fail to read that the detection spell is a one use only spell.
so unless you invest like 1000 gas, you'll have to babysit the roach
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
I don't know if u REALLY played that unit or just talking shit. can someone confirm this? if you're right, then I'm sorry.
Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem.
man you post like u read it all, but fail to read that the detection spell is a one use only spell.
so unless you invest like 1000 gas, you'll have to babysit the roach
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
I don't know if u REALLY played that unit or just talking shit. can someone confirm this? if you're right, then I'm sorry.
Looks like a spire gonna be pretty much needed ASAP, as well as preemptive spores. Imagine you don't have spire and have only 1 spore, 3 DTs comes and snipes that in 1 hit and what are you going to do then without spire lol?
1. it is pretty much comfirmed that this is lair only. no spire needed
also, it is def NOT a detector by default. as u can see in this vid
this hovering eye is the detector, I also think it can't be casted on themselves
edit: @swiftspear:
zerg will still not really force detection. burrow baneling is hive tech and the swarm lord doesnt really force detection immediately.
imo it will be even easier to snipe "the overseer" now. it will be an overlord or an attacking unit with a huge hovering eye on it. I still can't think of any example where the viper detection should be any better than the overseer. maybe u guys can help me.
Maybe the enemy won't be able to see the detector icon, thus making it a slight bit safer. If the enemy can see the icon then zerg detection would be pretty shit indeed.
Nestea style time out a spore crawler to walk to the third as it pops... alternatively, walk it there preemptively and cancel your hatch close by so that you can plant your spore.
Seriously... Zerg getting detection that is both invisible and has superfast health regen doesn't feel at least powerful enough to make up for its lack of "15 seconds and I can have a cheap detector anywhere"?
(if you can put a detect over ANY UNIT you could potentially have an ULTRALISK as a detector.... queen ultra for perma detect xDDD Muta detect for fastest detector in the game sans scan, roach detect for invisible health-regen detect... so many options...)
I think that the viper itself is going to be makeable as soon as lair tech finishes, but then you need to buy upgrades from hatcheries/lairs that will allow it to use the hook pull/blinding swarm spells (like with psi storm and NP), while ocular parasite will be available as soon as it spawns. I think the only trouble then would be how much the viper initially costs. That's what I think would probably be most practical.
I played HotS at blizzcon and I can answer your guys' questions.
Viper only requires a lair and spawns with all it's abilities.
The detection spell costs 50 energy and lasts forever.
The unit gets a little symbol over its head which the enemy can see. (I was 1v1ing my friend who was sitting next to me and I looked on his screen to check.)
The viper can cast detection on itself.
And I know this wasnt specifically asked here but blinding cloud does not work on air units.
On October 24 2011 01:02 Robonord wrote: I played HotS at blizzcon and I can answer your guys' questions.
Viper only requires a lair and spawns with all it's abilities.
The detection spell costs 50 energy and lasts forever.
The unit gets a little symbol over its head which the enemy can see. (I was 1v1ing my friend who was sitting next to me and I looked on his screen to check.)
The viper can cast detection on itself.
And I know this wasnt specifically asked here but blinding cloud does not work on air units.
one time use or multiple?
to the guy with the ultralisk proposal. it's bound to be non-massive.
On October 24 2011 01:02 Robonord wrote: I played HotS at blizzcon and I can answer your guys' questions.
Viper only requires a lair and spawns with all it's abilities.
The detection spell costs 50 energy and lasts forever.
The unit gets a little symbol over its head which the enemy can see. (I was 1v1ing my friend who was sitting next to me and I looked on his screen to check.)
The viper can cast detection on itself.
And I know this wasnt specifically asked here but blinding cloud does not work on air units.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I was sure i had not seen anywhere they had said the Viper itself was a detector but many had made the assumption it was.
How much energy does the Viper spawn with?
Considering it can cast it on itself, i would imagine we will need to keep at least 1 around our base and expansions and in combination with spores should be good to go as the main concern in bases is DT's and Banshees, so with neither being able to snipe the Viper even if Spores are taken out we are still right to go.
Out on the map maybe a combination of a Viper, which you are most likely going to want to have with your army anyway for there shit hot spells, and an Ocular Parasite cast on either an Ovie with speed or a unit in the army.
My biggest concern with the removal of the overseer (not so much the viper but that it replaces the overseer) is that our mobile detection will now cost 200 gas instead of 50 (formerly 100) and that our scouting ability is reduced accordingly (forcing us back into 100/100 for overlord speed to get a reasonable scout or pay 200 gas for the viper).
On October 24 2011 08:32 Swwww wrote: No good scouting unit, no mobile detection before lair and infestation pit. Sounds like zerg is going to be a good race. Wait nopenopenopenopenope
Another guy who was there also backs up what Belial88 was saying about the Ocular Parasite being a multiple use spell.
Ocular Parasite can just be used on one unit at a time, the Viper starts with just enough energy to use this. Lasts on the unit forever until it dies, looks like a mini overseer floating above that unit that the enemy can also see.
The unit doesn't have to die, you can cast it as many times as you have energy from what I tested. I didn't exactly try to put it on my entire 200/200 army or anything, but I don't think there is a limit.
Apparently you can cast it on a unit and burrow it as well.
On October 24 2011 00:08 ddrddrddrddr wrote: Maybe the enemy won't be able to see the detector icon, thus making it a slight bit safer. If the enemy can see the icon then zerg detection would be pretty shit indeed.
They can already tell which overlord is the overseer. I don't think that knowing which unit is a detector will make it any more difficult to keep the detector alive than any other races' detectors (barring scans).
I think the idea of turning a muta into a detector when going muta/ling in TvZ sounds like a novel idea. Also turning queens into detectors because they typically defend banshee/DT rushes anyhow is probably going to become standard. Really, if you have several different control groups operating independently, then you could have a detector in each group.
Primarily, I think zerg will have more available detection than they know what to do with - especially if the detection spell endures after the caster is killed. This will of course be opposed by the fact that zerg units die in droves in large engagements, but if you choose your detectors intelligently then the amount of detectors you have should increase over the duration of the game.
On April 26 2011 21:04 Scorch wrote: Zerg detection is very hard to come by compared to Broodwar. Back then, every overlord had detection, and still corsair/DT was a legitimate strategy against zerg. I don't know why phoenix/DT isn't used nowadays.
You can burrow a detector zergling, or even better if you're there in tech, a roach or infestor. Honestly? Deal with it. You guys talk as if Spores don't exist. DTs aren't the problem here...
The problem is ghosts; sniping a unit with a giant eye on it is going to be no problem. You could make 5 infestors 50/50 x5 no supply, right? Now it costs 100/200/2? x5, and would probably be on an overlords (most hp zerg unit non massive that is really accessible - it being on a brood lord is laughable given its speed). The only zerg mobile detection is alluvasudden very vulnerable and in limited supply. This will be reworked before release of course no point crying over it now.
On October 24 2011 11:59 NATO wrote: Um. Viper only requires lair tech, and it can cast the detection spell upon spawn. So the timing is the same as overseer if you go that route...
If that's the only reason to resurrect this thread, can a mod please close this?
Yet it is 200 gas, which isn't always available when you have just spent gas upgrading to lair.
Why should the thread be closed when there has been some good new information revealed because of it and there are HOTS threads all over the board.
EPT
