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On March 16 2013 12:48 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 12:40 tomatriedes wrote:On March 16 2013 08:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 16 2013 08:09 Gatesleeper wrote:On March 16 2013 07:53 fuzzylogic44 wrote:
I thought it was great. I don't look for amazing story arcs and complex characters in video games, and with that in mind I give it a 10 out of 10. This kind of sentiment has been expressed many times over this thread, and I think it speaks to perhaps the most central facet of this argument. What should our expectations be for Starcraft? For any video game? A lot of people have said that people who didn't like the game simply had too high expectations for what the story of Starcraft could be and do. I disagree, and think that if you "don't look for amazing story arcs and complex characters in video games", your expectations are too low. Sure, if you set the bar low enough, the story for HotS is a "10 out of 10", but that is a very low bar indeed. I am holding Starcraft to a higher standard, one set by Blizzard and by Starcraft 1/BW. If you're one of those people who keep saying that the story/writing in SC2 is actually not much worse than SC1, you're simply wrong. Watch the goddamn cinematics from Starcraft 1/BW. This is pacing, this is atmosphere. This is writing. This is drama, and more writing. If you can watch those cinematics and tell me Kerrigan jumping around beating up Zeratul or Narud or killing marines DBZ style is just as good, well, then that's an opinion I couldn't possibly change with arguments. The first movie is a cheesy ripoff of Aliens...and no, that's no me comparing any space alien thing to Aliens, it's a blatantly cheesy copy of Aliens. It also had zero relevance to the mission, the campaign or the story. 2nd one is Mengst pontificating. Yes, SC1 and BW has very good monologues, but having a good 5 minute long speech is not remotely the same as having a good story. 3rd...I swear it's exactly the same as the suicide scene from A Few Good Men. And yet they're still far better than any cinematics in WOL and HOTS where the cheese factor is about ten times higher. The cinematics in WoL and HotS are phenomenal. Say what you will about the dialogue, but the quality is damn near 2nd to none. If there is one thing Blizzard is exceptional at, it's cinematics.
Yeah the cinematics are pretty polished from a technical viewpoint. I think many people aren't impressed by that these days since games with shiny graphics aren't exactly uncommon, but Bliz certainly isn't lagging behind there.
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On March 16 2013 11:00 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 10:34 Lauriel wrote:On March 16 2013 09:46 Dfgj wrote:On March 16 2013 09:32 Bagi wrote:
My problem with the campaign is that very little actually happens. What happens is utterly predictable. I was actually a little excited when I thought they might make Jimmy hate Kerrigan, but no, they had to make him a corny sidekick towards the end.
Kerrigan hates Mengsk. Kerrigan kills Mengsk. Did we really need 20 missions to tell this story? The only redeeming part was to me was Zerus and the interesting origin of the zerg, the rest was utterly forgettable. Its just a shallow, predictable plot that is spread way too thin over too many expansions with lots of pretty cinematics trying to hide how little it has to tell. In the BW days this plot would've been done in an arc of 3 missions at most. And even that was a retcon, heh. I don't see what that was necessary given the existing backstory that was already developed. I don't think so. Earth was a volcanic world too long ago. Look what happened over time. It evolved along with the life on it. Seems reasonable to think Zerus could be the same. Also, Duran was in BW and hinted heavily that he worked for someone much bigger that we hadn't met. There were even hybrids. They had to introduce him sometime. The scope of time between the Xel'Naga upbringing of the Zerg is probably a bit less than billions of years. Introducing someone Duran works for is fine. Changing the motivations and nature of a tremendous number of characters to fit the reveal is a retcon.
That's an assumption you can't make. All I'm saying is that there's precedent.
Whose motivations and natures were arbitrarily changed with no explanation or justification? Or if you're being honest with youraelf, is it that you just don't like the justification because you imagined it differently?
By the way, it's a good thing nobody ever changes their mind or motivations in real life about anything. Jesus, that'd be so intolerable.
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On March 15 2013 07:33 mordk wrote:
There's one thing about all the complaints I don't really ever begin to understand. Why are people so upset that Jim loves Kerrigan and doesn't have the guts to kill her?
I seriously do not understand how anyone who played SC doesn't really know Jim was ALWAYS in love with Kerrigan. This was always as obvious as it gets. And I got that when I played SC, being like.. 14? It isn't weird at all for me that Blizzard took this course for the Raynor-Kerrigan plot line, it seems rather obvious to me that Jim wouldn't be so heartless to just kill her, since he is hopelessly in love with her and has always been.
Otherwise, I agree, the story is weak, but I still have enjoyed the campaigns immensely.
I also liked the new characters, even though I agree that they're kinda forgettable. I have my hopes up for Zeratul, main character of LotV.
I've always thought there's 2 main problems with the people complaining.
First, people have COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC expectations of this game's story, of Diablo's storyline, and of any game's storyline really. If compared to more mature storytelling media, there's only a handful of good stories throughout the ENTIRETY of gaming's history. And that's fine, because it's evolving, it's a very young media. If you want deep storylines without the cheesiness, the plotholes, etc, either pick your games really carefully, or go back to books and movies.
Second, people seem to have a nostalgia-filled vision of the original SC's storyline. While it wasn't nearly as cheesy as this one, the truth is SC's storyline was pretty basic, and just as bad as this one. Blizzard's writers weren't geniuses then, and they aren't now. That doesn't stop me from enjoying it though, you just need to look at it for what it is and get off that high flying cloud you people live in. Please remember most of us were KIDS when we played starcraft. OF COURSE IT WAS IMPRESSIVE.
Did you even play the BW story? Raynor probably has the single most famous line in any SC game when he says "I'm the man that's gonna kill you some day". He hates her by the end of BW, and is dead-set on killing her for all of the atrocious things that happened. Then he does a complete 180 in the beginning of WoL and all we ever hear about is how he's so desperate to get her back. There's NO character development where he really struggles with the fact that he's trying to save the single most evil entity in the sector. Sure, they had something between them, but it was by no means an actual relationship; this is blatantly clear by the dialogue shortly before Kerrigan is infested the first time. It was something that was budding but hiding under the surface. Then, all of a sudden, despite the billions that Kerrigan's killed, WoL curtains rise and he's madly in love.
Back to the original point, yes, the writing was fucking terrible. It was marginally better than WoL, but it was still absolutely atrocious.
There is no character consistency and only Raynor, Kerrigan, and Valerian have any depth to them whatsoever. Handling Narud in that was was just stupid, and Mengsk is just "superblandvillain #10000000", with no personality or interesting things about him whatsoever.
The script was just awful. The voice acting for all of the new Zerg characters was pathetic; they sounded more like the Adjutant than they did Zerg, and their lines were very cheesy and out-of-place. I've never been a fan of Kerrigan's new voice actress, and her delivery of Kerrigan's script reeked of too much effort (of course, her script was trashy and soap-opera-esque so she had little to work with).
The story elements were non-existent or just terribly done. There was very little actual content in the story; Kerrigan escapes, gets power, gets power, gets power, kills Narud, kills Mengsk. So much more could've been done with the Protoss on Khaldir, but they had little to no personality behind them and all we did was just kill them. The appearance of Zeratul was mind-numbingly stupid, and the entire Zerus plotline was unnecessary. The Feral Zerg bit just felt completely out-of-place and the whole thing about gaining more and more power is just ridiculous. She's a fucking Class 10 psionic entity, and was already by far the most powerful individual in the sector during BW. Why travel to ZERUS to have the exact same thing done to you that Abothur (SP?) could've just done? Especially when the art team was too lazy to actually make the change look different and at least symbolize that there was something different about her, but no; she's basically the exact same Queen of Blades as she was in WoL, making the entire WoL storyline moot.
Let's take a moment here to appreciate the complete retcons with Zerus. The planet was originally a volcanic ash planet that was left lifeless (quoted from the original SC manual) when the Zerg left it. Furthermore, the original Zerg were parasitic entities, not massive beasts.
Let's also talk about the crap we get from the Zerg and how they try to portray them as misunderstood and just trying to survive. Really? Because you fuckers haven't already done this before? I swear, Metzen is willfully retarded to think that he isn't blatantly ripping off the Orc storyline for the Zerg one. Not only that, everything is pointing to a Protoss-Zerg-Terran vs. Amon finale, an obvious ripoff of the RoC finale against Archimonde.
Stukov was just bullshit filler to get a reaction from the old-time players; he served all of zero purpose in the actual story. Narud was a character that had been alive for thousands of years and completely fooled Kerrigan during the Brood War; now he's just "superblandvillain #1000001" and dies in one of the cheesiest ways possible. And of course, on and on with the dumbass prophecy bullshit that ruins so many stories. And Amon? "Yes, I went to the trouble of creating two separate, intricate races, died, and now all I want to do is destroy the universe." Bland, Sauron-esque villain with no purpose that heavily retcon's previous lore. Killing Mengsk? We fucking copy-pasted the UED invasion of Korhal, but actually killed Mengsk in the end. I mean really. It was like a fucking ten-year-old wrote this story.
The ending made me want to bitch slap Metzen across the face. Another cheesy, substance-less ending where characters go off into the sunset, either saying nothing or saying meaningless bullshit.
This story is playing out like a terrible, terrible movie. I mean people should be fired over this shit writing. If any other company did this kind of crap, they wouldn't be able to get away with it.
I don't think I can truly express how fucking atrocious the writing for WoL, HotS, and D3 have been. Metzen, you are a genuinely horrific writer and absolutely nothing that you've done with SC2 or D3 has been any good.
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On March 16 2013 12:29 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 12:22 iamcaustic wrote:On March 16 2013 11:57 Dfgj wrote:On March 16 2013 11:49 iamcaustic wrote:On March 16 2013 11:41 Dfgj wrote:On March 16 2013 11:38 iamcaustic wrote:On March 15 2013 07:41 Alzadar wrote:On March 15 2013 07:33 mordk wrote:
There's one thing about all the complaints I don't really ever begin to understand. Why are people so upset that Jim loves Kerrigan and doesn't have the guts to kill her?
I seriously do not understand how anyone who played SC doesn't really know Jim was ALWAYS in love with Kerrigan. This was always as obvious as it gets. And I got that when I played SC, being like.. 14? It isn't weird at all for me that Blizzard took this course for the Raynor-Kerrigan plot line, it seems rather obvious to me that Jim wouldn't be so heartless to just kill her, since he is hopelessly in love with her and has always been.
Otherwise, I agree, the story is weak, but I still have enjoyed the campaigns immensely.
I also liked the new characters, even though I agree that they're kinda forgettable. I have my hopes up for Zeratul, main character of LotV.
I've always thought there's 2 main problems with the people complaining.
First, people have COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC expectations of this game's story, of Diablo's storyline, and of any game's storyline really. If compared to more mature storytelling media, there's only a handful of good stories throughout the ENTIRETY of gaming's history. And that's fine, because it's evolving, it's a very young media. If you want deep storylines without the cheesiness, the plotholes, etc, either pick your games really carefully, or go back to books and movies.
Second, people seem to have a nostalgia-filled vision of the original SC's storyline. While it wasn't nearly as cheesy as this one, the truth is SC's storyline was pretty basic, and just as bad as this one. Blizzard's writers weren't geniuses then, and they aren't now. That doesn't stop me from enjoying it though, you just need to look at it for what it is and get off that high flying cloud you people live in. Well, one of the climactic moments of BW is Jim's anger after Fenix is killed: I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan! For Fenix, and all the others who got caught between you and your mad quest for power! It may not be tomorow, darlin', it may not even happen with an army at my back. But rest assured; I'm the man who's gonna kill you one day. I'll be seeing you. Basically all off the SC2 plot is subverting this, which sucks because it was such a cool scene. Uh, did you not play the HotS campaign or something? + Show Spoiler [HotS Story] +When Kerrigan breaks Jim out of the prison ship, the cut scene brings that whole situation to the forefront. Raynor basically repeats what he said in Brood War: "Tell that to Fenix. Tell that to the millions you butchered". Kerrigan hands him a gun and places the barrel on her forehead, saying specifically: "You promised you would kill the Queen of Blades".
You might be surprised by this, but sometimes a situation is more complicated than making a statement and following through. That you can't appreciate the depth of this scene isn't the fault of Blizzard's writers.
That's not depth. That's rewriting a character. The entire story of BW and the climax of Jim's character was hand-waved away by a few lines in that cutscene, meanwhile he was rewritten as utterly lovesick where no such thing was present before. Where "no such thing" was present before...? Please take a moment to actually play StarCraft 1 and follow up with some reading of StarCraft lore. I've played SC1 and SCBW. Recently. Then why are you being so utterly dishonest about Raynor/Kerrigan? I'm afraid people sharing a couple conversations doesn't mean they're desperately in love, except possibly in a Bioware game.
B-b-but he pictured her naked once! (or whatever else resulted in the "you pig!")
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This storyline is without a doubt the worst I've ever seen. Like, I'm in shock that I'm not dreaming or this isn't some joke. This makes the ME3 ending look incredible...
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
pretty much the only enjoyable parts of the story were those without human characters. zerg history was pretty cool and in character with the lore. but once you get to the romance and the revenge and the miraculous revivals, forget it.
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Lauriel I've read every one of your posts, I just haven't directly replied to any of them because I think they're perhaps the most deluded and bogus rationalizations in this entire thread and not worth opinionating on. But let me just pick 1 solitary bone with you here.
How can you in good conscience continue to argue that the whole idea of the "Primal Zerg" doesn't rewrite everything we've come to know about the history of the Zerg race, or that the "Amon's taint" plotline is a good explanation for Kerrigan's character progression and not a retcon. (And please, can we start calling it something else other than that terrible phrase? It makes it sound like we're talking about a certain area of Amon's genitals...)
On March 16 2013 00:00 Lauriel wrote:
Nothing was retconned.
Retcon:
Wikipedia wrote:
Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work.
tvtropes wrote:
Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. When the inserted events work with what was previously stated, it's a Revision; when they outright replace it, it's a Rewrite. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on.
Wiktionary wrote:
A situation, in a soap opera or similar serial fiction, in which a new storyline explains or changes a previous event or attaches a new significance to it.
Let's look at all the "not retcons" as told by Lauriel in HotS/SC2.
On March 15 2013 22:07 Lauriel wrote:
Amon's taint wasn't minor at all. It explained why Kerrigan was so much more humanized after the blast, even when she returned to being the queen of blades. That's a major reason some people are so up in arms right now, and it was explained right there in the story.
On March 15 2013 22:28 Lauriel wrote:
The primal zerg don't and never did serve the overmind, so my guess is that Amon created the Overmind to rule the Zerg he took and shaped. Again, just my interpretation.
On March 16 2013 00:00 Lauriel wrote:
Nothing was retconned. Kerrigan pre-xel'naga artifact cleansing was NOT the same as post. The xel'naga artifact cleansed her of Amon's taint, which was corrupting her and her motivations. She didn't even remember what she did as the Queen of Blades, and had to be re-informed of what she was. When she allowed herself to become the queen of blades, she did so without being corrupted by Amon, and kept elements of her humanity.
I swear this has been posted several times before. If you just hate that aspect of the story, you're free to do so, but nothing was retconned as far as her motivations.
On March 16 2013 00:02 Lauriel wrote:
The Overmind didn't make her without the taint. He made a being that was capable of being cleansed of it, as she was not fully zerg and not created by Amon, and cunning and powerful enough to one day rule the swarm. His relief (as described in WoL) over being killed was due to the fact that with her in control of the swarm, if she were to be cleaned, the swarm would be free. His plan was one step closer to being carried out.
On March 16 2013 01:00 Lauriel wrote:
I think you misunderstood me. The Overmind wasn't prophetic in the sense that it knew Kerrigan would be cleansed. Rather, he realized that it was the only chance the Zerg had to ever be free. He took a long shot, and it paid off.
In other words, he realized that he had no chance to ever be freed, and that in order for the Zerg to ever be free, a leader would have to take power who could, potentially, be rid of Amon's influence. He never knew how (or if) it would happen, but he planted a seed and hoped that one day it would work, and it did.
On March 16 2013 09:49 Lauriel wrote:
The backstory that was developed was that of the swarm, IE the zerg that Amon took and corrupted from Zerus. Not the primals.
And my personal favourite hilarious 1-2 punch:
On March 16 2013 10:34 Lauriel wrote:
I don't think so. Earth was a volcanic world too long ago. Look what happened over time. It evolved along with the life on it. Seems reasonable to think Zerus could be the same.
On March 16 2013 11:00 Dfgj wrote:
The scope of time between the Xel'Naga upbringing of the Zerg is probably a bit less than billions of years.
On March 16 2013 13:13 Lauriel wrote:
That's an assumption you can't make. All I'm saying is that there's precedent.
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On March 16 2013 13:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 07:33 mordk wrote:
There's one thing about all the complaints I don't really ever begin to understand. Why are people so upset that Jim loves Kerrigan and doesn't have the guts to kill her?
I seriously do not understand how anyone who played SC doesn't really know Jim was ALWAYS in love with Kerrigan. This was always as obvious as it gets. And I got that when I played SC, being like.. 14? It isn't weird at all for me that Blizzard took this course for the Raynor-Kerrigan plot line, it seems rather obvious to me that Jim wouldn't be so heartless to just kill her, since he is hopelessly in love with her and has always been.
Otherwise, I agree, the story is weak, but I still have enjoyed the campaigns immensely.
I also liked the new characters, even though I agree that they're kinda forgettable. I have my hopes up for Zeratul, main character of LotV.
I've always thought there's 2 main problems with the people complaining.
First, people have COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC expectations of this game's story, of Diablo's storyline, and of any game's storyline really. If compared to more mature storytelling media, there's only a handful of good stories throughout the ENTIRETY of gaming's history. And that's fine, because it's evolving, it's a very young media. If you want deep storylines without the cheesiness, the plotholes, etc, either pick your games really carefully, or go back to books and movies.
Second, people seem to have a nostalgia-filled vision of the original SC's storyline. While it wasn't nearly as cheesy as this one, the truth is SC's storyline was pretty basic, and just as bad as this one. Blizzard's writers weren't geniuses then, and they aren't now. That doesn't stop me from enjoying it though, you just need to look at it for what it is and get off that high flying cloud you people live in. Please remember most of us were KIDS when we played starcraft. OF COURSE IT WAS IMPRESSIVE. Did you even play the BW story? Raynor probably has the single most famous line in any SC game when he says "I'm the man that's gonna kill you some day". He hates her by the end of BW, and is dead-set on killing her for all of the atrocious things that happened. Then he does a complete 180 in the beginning of WoL and all we ever hear about is how he's so desperate to get her back. There's NO character development where he really struggles with the fact that he's trying to save the single most evil entity in the sector. Sure, they had something between them, but it was by no means an actual relationship; this is blatantly clear by the dialogue shortly before Kerrigan is infested the first time. It was something that was budding but hiding under the surface. Then, all of a sudden, despite the billions that Kerrigan's killed, WoL curtains rise and he's madly in love. Back to the original point, yes, the writing was fucking terrible. It was marginally better than WoL, but it was still absolutely atrocious. There is no character consistency and only Raynor, Kerrigan, and Valerian have any depth to them whatsoever. Handling Narud in that was was just stupid, and Mengsk is just "superblandvillain #10000000", with no personality or interesting things about him whatsoever. The script was just awful. The voice acting for all of the new Zerg characters was pathetic; they sounded more like the Adjutant than they did Zerg, and their lines were very cheesy and out-of-place. I've never been a fan of Kerrigan's new voice actress, and her delivery of Kerrigan's script reeked of too much effort (of course, her script was trashy and soap-opera-esque so she had little to work with). The story elements were non-existent or just terribly done. There was very little actual content in the story; Kerrigan escapes, gets power, gets power, gets power, kills Narud, kills Mengsk. So much more could've been done with the Protoss on Khaldir, but they had little to no personality behind them and all we did was just kill them. The appearance of Zeratul was mind-numbingly stupid, and the entire Zerus plotline was unnecessary. The Feral Zerg bit just felt completely out-of-place and the whole thing about gaining more and more power is just ridiculous. She's a fucking Class 10 psionic entity, and was already by far the most powerful individual in the sector during BW. Why travel to ZERUS to have the exact same thing done to you that Abothur (SP?) could've just done? Especially when the art team was too lazy to actually make the change look different and at least symbolize that there was something different about her, but no; she's basically the exact same Queen of Blades as she was in WoL, making the entire WoL storyline moot. Let's take a moment here to appreciate the complete retcons with Zerus. The planet was originally a volcanic ash planet that was left lifeless (quoted from the original SC manual) when the Zerg left it. Furthermore, the original Zerg were parasitic entities, not massive beasts. Let's also talk about the crap we get from the Zerg and how they try to portray them as misunderstood and just trying to survive. Really? Because you fuckers haven't already done this before? I swear, Metzen is willfully retarded to think that he isn't blatantly ripping off the Orc storyline for the Zerg one. Not only that, everything is pointing to a Protoss-Zerg-Terran vs. Amon finale, an obvious ripoff of the RoC finale against Archimonde. Stukov was just bullshit filler to get a reaction from the old-time players; he served all of zero purpose in the actual story. Narud was a character that had been alive for thousands of years and completely fooled Kerrigan during the Brood War; now he's just "superblandvillain #1000001" and dies in one of the cheesiest ways possible. And of course, on and on with the dumbass prophecy bullshit that ruins so many stories. And Amon? "Yes, I went to the trouble of creating two separate, intricate races, died, and now all I want to do is destroy the universe." Bland, Sauron-esque villain with no purpose that heavily retcon's previous lore. Killing Mengsk? We fucking copy-pasted the UED invasion of Korhal, but actually killed Mengsk in the end. I mean really. It was like a fucking ten-year-old wrote this story. The ending made me want to bitch slap Metzen across the face. Another cheesy, substance-less ending where characters go off into the sunset, either saying nothing or saying meaningless bullshit. This story is playing out like a terrible, terrible movie. I mean people should be fired over this shit writing. If any other company did this kind of crap, they wouldn't be able to get away with it. I don't think I can truly express how fucking atrocious the writing for WoL, HotS, and D3 have been. Metzen, you are a genuinely horrific writer and absolutely nothing that you've done with SC2 or D3 has been any good.
That was well said. I'm a screenwriter and we consider ourselves to be a very low form of writing. I do play a lot of RPGs/MMOs as well and it's very hard for me to pick one that has good writing. Almost non-existent. The good news for me is I don't play for the story, but the game play. I normally just skip it nowadays.
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On March 16 2013 14:10 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 13:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 15 2013 07:33 mordk wrote:
There's one thing about all the complaints I don't really ever begin to understand. Why are people so upset that Jim loves Kerrigan and doesn't have the guts to kill her?
I seriously do not understand how anyone who played SC doesn't really know Jim was ALWAYS in love with Kerrigan. This was always as obvious as it gets. And I got that when I played SC, being like.. 14? It isn't weird at all for me that Blizzard took this course for the Raynor-Kerrigan plot line, it seems rather obvious to me that Jim wouldn't be so heartless to just kill her, since he is hopelessly in love with her and has always been.
Otherwise, I agree, the story is weak, but I still have enjoyed the campaigns immensely.
I also liked the new characters, even though I agree that they're kinda forgettable. I have my hopes up for Zeratul, main character of LotV.
I've always thought there's 2 main problems with the people complaining.
First, people have COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC expectations of this game's story, of Diablo's storyline, and of any game's storyline really. If compared to more mature storytelling media, there's only a handful of good stories throughout the ENTIRETY of gaming's history. And that's fine, because it's evolving, it's a very young media. If you want deep storylines without the cheesiness, the plotholes, etc, either pick your games really carefully, or go back to books and movies.
Second, people seem to have a nostalgia-filled vision of the original SC's storyline. While it wasn't nearly as cheesy as this one, the truth is SC's storyline was pretty basic, and just as bad as this one. Blizzard's writers weren't geniuses then, and they aren't now. That doesn't stop me from enjoying it though, you just need to look at it for what it is and get off that high flying cloud you people live in. Please remember most of us were KIDS when we played starcraft. OF COURSE IT WAS IMPRESSIVE. Did you even play the BW story? Raynor probably has the single most famous line in any SC game when he says "I'm the man that's gonna kill you some day". He hates her by the end of BW, and is dead-set on killing her for all of the atrocious things that happened. Then he does a complete 180 in the beginning of WoL and all we ever hear about is how he's so desperate to get her back. There's NO character development where he really struggles with the fact that he's trying to save the single most evil entity in the sector. Sure, they had something between them, but it was by no means an actual relationship; this is blatantly clear by the dialogue shortly before Kerrigan is infested the first time. It was something that was budding but hiding under the surface. Then, all of a sudden, despite the billions that Kerrigan's killed, WoL curtains rise and he's madly in love. Back to the original point, yes, the writing was fucking terrible. It was marginally better than WoL, but it was still absolutely atrocious. There is no character consistency and only Raynor, Kerrigan, and Valerian have any depth to them whatsoever. Handling Narud in that was was just stupid, and Mengsk is just "superblandvillain #10000000", with no personality or interesting things about him whatsoever. The script was just awful. The voice acting for all of the new Zerg characters was pathetic; they sounded more like the Adjutant than they did Zerg, and their lines were very cheesy and out-of-place. I've never been a fan of Kerrigan's new voice actress, and her delivery of Kerrigan's script reeked of too much effort (of course, her script was trashy and soap-opera-esque so she had little to work with). The story elements were non-existent or just terribly done. There was very little actual content in the story; Kerrigan escapes, gets power, gets power, gets power, kills Narud, kills Mengsk. So much more could've been done with the Protoss on Khaldir, but they had little to no personality behind them and all we did was just kill them. The appearance of Zeratul was mind-numbingly stupid, and the entire Zerus plotline was unnecessary. The Feral Zerg bit just felt completely out-of-place and the whole thing about gaining more and more power is just ridiculous. She's a fucking Class 10 psionic entity, and was already by far the most powerful individual in the sector during BW. Why travel to ZERUS to have the exact same thing done to you that Abothur (SP?) could've just done? Especially when the art team was too lazy to actually make the change look different and at least symbolize that there was something different about her, but no; she's basically the exact same Queen of Blades as she was in WoL, making the entire WoL storyline moot. Let's take a moment here to appreciate the complete retcons with Zerus. The planet was originally a volcanic ash planet that was left lifeless (quoted from the original SC manual) when the Zerg left it. Furthermore, the original Zerg were parasitic entities, not massive beasts. Let's also talk about the crap we get from the Zerg and how they try to portray them as misunderstood and just trying to survive. Really? Because you fuckers haven't already done this before? I swear, Metzen is willfully retarded to think that he isn't blatantly ripping off the Orc storyline for the Zerg one. Not only that, everything is pointing to a Protoss-Zerg-Terran vs. Amon finale, an obvious ripoff of the RoC finale against Archimonde. Stukov was just bullshit filler to get a reaction from the old-time players; he served all of zero purpose in the actual story. Narud was a character that had been alive for thousands of years and completely fooled Kerrigan during the Brood War; now he's just "superblandvillain #1000001" and dies in one of the cheesiest ways possible. And of course, on and on with the dumbass prophecy bullshit that ruins so many stories. And Amon? "Yes, I went to the trouble of creating two separate, intricate races, died, and now all I want to do is destroy the universe." Bland, Sauron-esque villain with no purpose that heavily retcon's previous lore. Killing Mengsk? We fucking copy-pasted the UED invasion of Korhal, but actually killed Mengsk in the end. I mean really. It was like a fucking ten-year-old wrote this story. The ending made me want to bitch slap Metzen across the face. Another cheesy, substance-less ending where characters go off into the sunset, either saying nothing or saying meaningless bullshit. This story is playing out like a terrible, terrible movie. I mean people should be fired over this shit writing. If any other company did this kind of crap, they wouldn't be able to get away with it. I don't think I can truly express how fucking atrocious the writing for WoL, HotS, and D3 have been. Metzen, you are a genuinely horrific writer and absolutely nothing that you've done with SC2 or D3 has been any good. That was well said. I'm a screenwriter and we consider ourselves to be a very low form of writing. I do play a lot of RPGs/MMOs as well and it's very hard for me to pick one that has good writing. Almost non-existent. The good news for me is I don't play for the story, but the game play. I normally just skip it nowadays.
Ever write anything I'd have seen?
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On March 16 2013 12:29 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 12:22 iamcaustic wrote:On March 16 2013 11:57 Dfgj wrote:On March 16 2013 11:49 iamcaustic wrote:On March 16 2013 11:41 Dfgj wrote:On March 16 2013 11:38 iamcaustic wrote:On March 15 2013 07:41 Alzadar wrote:On March 15 2013 07:33 mordk wrote:
There's one thing about all the complaints I don't really ever begin to understand. Why are people so upset that Jim loves Kerrigan and doesn't have the guts to kill her?
I seriously do not understand how anyone who played SC doesn't really know Jim was ALWAYS in love with Kerrigan. This was always as obvious as it gets. And I got that when I played SC, being like.. 14? It isn't weird at all for me that Blizzard took this course for the Raynor-Kerrigan plot line, it seems rather obvious to me that Jim wouldn't be so heartless to just kill her, since he is hopelessly in love with her and has always been.
Otherwise, I agree, the story is weak, but I still have enjoyed the campaigns immensely.
I also liked the new characters, even though I agree that they're kinda forgettable. I have my hopes up for Zeratul, main character of LotV.
I've always thought there's 2 main problems with the people complaining.
First, people have COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC expectations of this game's story, of Diablo's storyline, and of any game's storyline really. If compared to more mature storytelling media, there's only a handful of good stories throughout the ENTIRETY of gaming's history. And that's fine, because it's evolving, it's a very young media. If you want deep storylines without the cheesiness, the plotholes, etc, either pick your games really carefully, or go back to books and movies.
Second, people seem to have a nostalgia-filled vision of the original SC's storyline. While it wasn't nearly as cheesy as this one, the truth is SC's storyline was pretty basic, and just as bad as this one. Blizzard's writers weren't geniuses then, and they aren't now. That doesn't stop me from enjoying it though, you just need to look at it for what it is and get off that high flying cloud you people live in. Well, one of the climactic moments of BW is Jim's anger after Fenix is killed: I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan! For Fenix, and all the others who got caught between you and your mad quest for power! It may not be tomorow, darlin', it may not even happen with an army at my back. But rest assured; I'm the man who's gonna kill you one day. I'll be seeing you. Basically all off the SC2 plot is subverting this, which sucks because it was such a cool scene. Uh, did you not play the HotS campaign or something? + Show Spoiler [HotS Story] +When Kerrigan breaks Jim out of the prison ship, the cut scene brings that whole situation to the forefront. Raynor basically repeats what he said in Brood War: "Tell that to Fenix. Tell that to the millions you butchered". Kerrigan hands him a gun and places the barrel on her forehead, saying specifically: "You promised you would kill the Queen of Blades".
You might be surprised by this, but sometimes a situation is more complicated than making a statement and following through. That you can't appreciate the depth of this scene isn't the fault of Blizzard's writers.
That's not depth. That's rewriting a character. The entire story of BW and the climax of Jim's character was hand-waved away by a few lines in that cutscene, meanwhile he was rewritten as utterly lovesick where no such thing was present before. Where "no such thing" was present before...? Please take a moment to actually play StarCraft 1 and follow up with some reading of StarCraft lore. I've played SC1 and SCBW. Recently. Then why are you being so utterly dishonest about Raynor/Kerrigan? I'm afraid people sharing a couple conversations doesn't mean they're desperately in love, except possibly in a Bioware game.
Yeah, totally. When we meed Kerrigan in BW she talks to Raynor and it is mentioned that they were an item, and then later she tells him not to try and be a knight in shining armour or something, and THAT'S IT. There's no love story in BW between them, and at the very end Raynor vows to kill her, and then at the start of WoL he is a lovesick drunkard...
edit: Also, I'm gonna get mad over Narud/Duran and Stukov. Duran had the shittiest ending of any mysterious character in SC. He was some cool black guy in BW who helped the UED, who then fooled the shit out of them, revealed that he's infested, and killed Stukov. The bonus mission then revealed that he was somehow in league with Amon, was thousands of years old, and that he was doing some Hybrid stuff. In HotS he is some mad scientist who makes Hybrids and gets killed by Kerrigan in a mission cyu bye.
Stukov is an infested terran and was tortured by Duran? How? In BW we saw his coffin get ejected into space in a cinematic after he was killed. So Duran randomly picked up his coffin in space and was like, "YO, I KILLED THIS GUY LOL, LET'S INFEST HIM!"
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On March 16 2013 11:57 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 11:49 iamcaustic wrote:On March 16 2013 11:41 Dfgj wrote:On March 16 2013 11:38 iamcaustic wrote:On March 15 2013 07:41 Alzadar wrote:On March 15 2013 07:33 mordk wrote:
There's one thing about all the complaints I don't really ever begin to understand. Why are people so upset that Jim loves Kerrigan and doesn't have the guts to kill her?
I seriously do not understand how anyone who played SC doesn't really know Jim was ALWAYS in love with Kerrigan. This was always as obvious as it gets. And I got that when I played SC, being like.. 14? It isn't weird at all for me that Blizzard took this course for the Raynor-Kerrigan plot line, it seems rather obvious to me that Jim wouldn't be so heartless to just kill her, since he is hopelessly in love with her and has always been.
Otherwise, I agree, the story is weak, but I still have enjoyed the campaigns immensely.
I also liked the new characters, even though I agree that they're kinda forgettable. I have my hopes up for Zeratul, main character of LotV.
I've always thought there's 2 main problems with the people complaining.
First, people have COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC expectations of this game's story, of Diablo's storyline, and of any game's storyline really. If compared to more mature storytelling media, there's only a handful of good stories throughout the ENTIRETY of gaming's history. And that's fine, because it's evolving, it's a very young media. If you want deep storylines without the cheesiness, the plotholes, etc, either pick your games really carefully, or go back to books and movies.
Second, people seem to have a nostalgia-filled vision of the original SC's storyline. While it wasn't nearly as cheesy as this one, the truth is SC's storyline was pretty basic, and just as bad as this one. Blizzard's writers weren't geniuses then, and they aren't now. That doesn't stop me from enjoying it though, you just need to look at it for what it is and get off that high flying cloud you people live in. Well, one of the climactic moments of BW is Jim's anger after Fenix is killed: I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan! For Fenix, and all the others who got caught between you and your mad quest for power! It may not be tomorow, darlin', it may not even happen with an army at my back. But rest assured; I'm the man who's gonna kill you one day. I'll be seeing you. Basically all off the SC2 plot is subverting this, which sucks because it was such a cool scene. Uh, did you not play the HotS campaign or something? + Show Spoiler [HotS Story] +When Kerrigan breaks Jim out of the prison ship, the cut scene brings that whole situation to the forefront. Raynor basically repeats what he said in Brood War: "Tell that to Fenix. Tell that to the millions you butchered". Kerrigan hands him a gun and places the barrel on her forehead, saying specifically: "You promised you would kill the Queen of Blades".
You might be surprised by this, but sometimes a situation is more complicated than making a statement and following through. That you can't appreciate the depth of this scene isn't the fault of Blizzard's writers.
That's not depth. That's rewriting a character. The entire story of BW and the climax of Jim's character was hand-waved away by a few lines in that cutscene, meanwhile he was rewritten as utterly lovesick where no such thing was present before. Where "no such thing" was present before...? Please take a moment to actually play StarCraft 1 and follow up with some reading of StarCraft lore. I've played SC1 and SCBW. Recently.
I would say that there really is a "love story" in the whole SC1 campaign, BUT it isnt shoved into our face as the main focus / motivation of some characters there. SC2 is totally different and we have the full focus on that element as the core motivation behind everything Raynor does while everything Kerrigan does is motivated by a need for revenge. Personally I hate this "soap opera story focus", but thats the way they write the story ... cheesy and with cheap lines, kinda like Arnie saying "I'll be back" in every movie.
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It's pretty funny the number of people debating the story so hotly in this thread who very clearly haven't played Resurrection or read any of the novels, particularly Flashpoint.
Anyway, I liked it, doesn't mean I thought it was particularly incredible, but I did. It's good, but it's a good example of a not particularly great genre of storytelling - western love story. I'd like to see the reasons for some of the stuff on Zerus, they did a pretty good job of explaining/changing/whatever the Overmind isn't a good guy stuff just before the release of HotS, so I think they'll have some good explanations.
If they don't, eh. Shame. Amazing campaign even if everyone had been named "man" "woman" "undecided" and the cutscenes had been done with play dough.
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On March 16 2013 15:17 ChaosSmurf wrote:
It's pretty funny the number of people debating the story so hotly in this thread who very clearly haven't played Resurrection or read any of the novels, particularly Flashpoint.
Bingo bingo!
So many people here just have no clue about an extremely large portion of the plot.
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On a side note, I would have bet large, important, sexual parts of my body that Resurrection wasn't actually canon up until the release of HotS but all those guys asking about Stukov and the UED at Blizzcon got through to someone I guess.
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My favorite mission was the very starting, when Kerrigan was labeled "Sarah Kerrigan" and she along with Jim Raynor were fucking Dominion shit up. I loved seeing Kerrigan with a canister rifle, it reminded me of the very early missions of the original starcraft and I dreaded that she reverted back to the Queen of Blades. I wasn't expecting her to do so, seeing as how there's really no reason at all other than Zeratul saying that she had to. She could've accomplished everything without reverting back (and with greater success seeing as how she wouldn't have fallen to the artifact twice in a row). Just shoot Mengsk in the face and be done with it.
Anyway, I enjoyed Hots' story but I would've enjoyed it more if Kerrigan remained Sarah Kerrigan, still had a gun, still did badass ghost power things, took control of the swarm and fought the Dominion alongside Matt Horner and Valerian for the entire story. It would've allowed Kerrigan to interact with all these other characters that we were introduced to in WoL and flesh them out more (the Space Mission was entertaining).
Mengsk didn't have nearly enough lines. He was a great villain in the original because first he was your ally, and then he betrayed you and he talked for a lot of the game. A non-speaking antagonist is really stupid, makes you feel like most of the missions are just you doing things for the sake of doing things. Remember in the original when everyone would talk shit to each other in the briefing room? Funny times.
More Zeratul missions would've been appreciated (if the Zeratul side-missions were omitted to make room for the tutorial 'evolution missions', this was a huge mistake) he could've fleshed out the story more, fought Duran or some more hybrids, foreshadowed some more events, be all Dark Templar-ish.
Actually, more Zeratul/Protoss in general. If Stukov gets revived for absolutely no reason, you could at least give Artanis a cameo. I feel like I've been fighting mindless Tal'darim protoss for the past two games (cause I have). Its just an excuse to include the protoss race and have you fight them without any actual consequences.
I actually liked seeing Stukov again, even if he served like no purpose and made no sense to have him there.
Instead I want to rage about Duran and his shitty resolution. He could've been such an amazing antagonist, and has been up till this game. His great character was developed over a MULTITUDE of missions and campaigns and backstabs everyone. To have him die in one mission in such a lackluster manner was just a poor decision in general. Also, Kerrigan should've referred to him as Duran or revealed him to be Duran AT SOME POINT. That's what she called him during the entire Brood War, and yet shes content to call him Narud, as if his crappy disguise were still working?
If it were up to me, Kerrigan would've still been human and she and Duran would've hashed it out with a ghost sniper duel while Duran did the egotistical bad-guy thing and explained most of the story during the fight.
Ending was mediocre. Kerrigan floats off into the sunset and says like two things, she doesn't even apologize for murdering millions on Korhal and becoming a complete monster that Raynor obviously can't have sexual relations with now. Whatever though, I did enjoy the campaign for the most part, obviously I would've enjoyed it more if I had it my way, but duh. /rant
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On March 16 2013 15:19 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 15:17 ChaosSmurf wrote:
It's pretty funny the number of people debating the story so hotly in this thread who very clearly haven't played Resurrection or read any of the novels, particularly Flashpoint. Bingo bingo! So many people here just have no clue about an extremely large portion of the plot.
It's true, I've never played Starcraft 64 or read any of the tie in novels. I played Starcraft, Brood War, Wings of Liberty, and Heart of the Swarm, and I imagine most of the people in this thread are the same.
If you're trying to tell me that I need to have read a Starcraft novel to understand or make sense of HotS, then that's a testament to the weakness of the HotS story, that it can't stand on its own merits.
If I were to talk about how I thought the plot of The Hobbit was weak, you can't say "oh, well you haven't read LotR, or The Silmarillion, or Unfinished Tales, or The Children of Hurin, so obviously your opinion on how The Hobbit functions as a distinct story is irrelevant."
Or, more to the point, it's like telling me that I can't say Star Wars Episode 3 was bad because I didn't read the dozens of shitty Star Wars paperbacks to supplement my knowledge of the Star Wars canon.
I found the HotS story and plot, as it follows from WoL and SC1/BW, to be terrible. If you're telling me I need to have played an N64 port of the game and read some tie in paperbacks to appreciate the game, well, then it wasn't a well told story.
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On March 16 2013 14:05 Gatesleeper wrote:Lauriel I've read every one of your posts, I just haven't directly replied to any of them because I think they're perhaps the most deluded and bogus rationalizations in this entire thread and not worth opinionating on. But let me just pick 1 solitary bone with you here. How can you in good conscience continue to argue that the whole idea of the "Primal Zerg" doesn't rewrite everything we've come to know about the history of the Zerg race, or that the "Amon's taint" plotline is a good explanation for Kerrigan's character progression and not a retcon. (And please, can we start calling it something else other than that terrible phrase? It makes it sound like we're talking about a certain area of Amon's genitals...) Retcon: Show nested quote +Wikipedia wrote:
Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work. Show nested quote +tvtropes wrote:
Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. When the inserted events work with what was previously stated, it's a Revision; when they outright replace it, it's a Rewrite. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on. Show nested quote +Wiktionary wrote:
A situation, in a soap opera or similar serial fiction, in which a new storyline explains or changes a previous event or attaches a new significance to it. Let's look at all the "not retcons" as told by Lauriel in HotS/SC2. Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 22:07 Lauriel wrote:
Amon's taint wasn't minor at all. It explained why Kerrigan was so much more humanized after the blast, even when she returned to being the queen of blades. That's a major reason some people are so up in arms right now, and it was explained right there in the story.
Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 22:28 Lauriel wrote:
The primal zerg don't and never did serve the overmind, so my guess is that Amon created the Overmind to rule the Zerg he took and shaped. Again, just my interpretation. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 00:00 Lauriel wrote:
Nothing was retconned. Kerrigan pre-xel'naga artifact cleansing was NOT the same as post. The xel'naga artifact cleansed her of Amon's taint, which was corrupting her and her motivations. She didn't even remember what she did as the Queen of Blades, and had to be re-informed of what she was. When she allowed herself to become the queen of blades, she did so without being corrupted by Amon, and kept elements of her humanity.
I swear this has been posted several times before. If you just hate that aspect of the story, you're free to do so, but nothing was retconned as far as her motivations. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 00:02 Lauriel wrote:
The Overmind didn't make her without the taint. He made a being that was capable of being cleansed of it, as she was not fully zerg and not created by Amon, and cunning and powerful enough to one day rule the swarm. His relief (as described in WoL) over being killed was due to the fact that with her in control of the swarm, if she were to be cleaned, the swarm would be free. His plan was one step closer to being carried out. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 01:00 Lauriel wrote:
I think you misunderstood me. The Overmind wasn't prophetic in the sense that it knew Kerrigan would be cleansed. Rather, he realized that it was the only chance the Zerg had to ever be free. He took a long shot, and it paid off.
In other words, he realized that he had no chance to ever be freed, and that in order for the Zerg to ever be free, a leader would have to take power who could, potentially, be rid of Amon's influence. He never knew how (or if) it would happen, but he planted a seed and hoped that one day it would work, and it did. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 09:49 Lauriel wrote:
The backstory that was developed was that of the swarm, IE the zerg that Amon took and corrupted from Zerus. Not the primals. And my personal favourite hilarious 1-2 punch: Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 10:34 Lauriel wrote:
I don't think so. Earth was a volcanic world too long ago. Look what happened over time. It evolved along with the life on it. Seems reasonable to think Zerus could be the same. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 11:00 Dfgj wrote:
The scope of time between the Xel'Naga upbringing of the Zerg is probably a bit less than billions of years. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 13:13 Lauriel wrote:
That's an assumption you can't make. All I'm saying is that there's precedent.
Thing 1: It's pretty funny that you don't want to use the term "retcon" and then proceed to use it repeatedly, including in three separate definitions.
Thing 2: For someone who doesn't find my opinions worth commenting on, you certainly spent a lot of time digging through my posts to find all the things I wrote you disagree with. I'm almost flattered.
Thing 3: The actual question you had is confusing with all the disjointedness of your post, but I'll take a stab at it.
"How can you in good conscience continue to argue that the whole idea of the "Primal Zerg" doesn't rewrite everything we've come to know about the history of the Zerg race..."
Because we lacked the full spectrum of the lore behind them to start with? I'm sorry, was there a Tolkien-esque, leather bound volume written about the complete history of the Zerg that I'm not aware of, or are you going off of the info we had from SC1/BW that basically amounts to a paragraph worth of description, and using that as the entire and complete origin of the race? If fleshing out a history of an aspect of a story is your description of the term "retcon" (which it really seems to be), then doing so would practically never be allowed in fiction. However, it happens all the time in the works of some excellent writers. (The Hobbit, anyone?).
"...or that the "Amon's taint" plotline is a good explanation for Kerrigan's character progression and not a retcon."
They were already going in this direction at the end of Brood War. Did you think they didn't have ideas for who Duran worked for? Did you think they didn't already know where they wanted to take the story? Did you not expect that there was going to be a bigger, badder villain out there for them to focus on in Starcraft 2? I know I did, and I was freaking 12 when I played the game, so I'd hope you picked up on that when you played it. People are screaming and yelling bloody murder about this in this thread, when in reality, I would bet that this is very much the story they wanted to tell from the end of Brood War. The setup was already there for it.
Also, just out of curiosity, why do you care so much about what I think? I'm just a guy on the internet, just like you.
Cheers.
Edit: I just realized you're the person who re-started this thread, and now I'm not even sure why I'm bothering. The way you even started the discussion is so biased and condescending that it's clear the only reason you're even here is to try to flex your literary critic muscle on the internet.
By the way, how'd the results of that poll turn out for you?
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On March 16 2013 14:30 Shebuha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 12:29 Dfgj wrote:On March 16 2013 12:22 iamcaustic wrote:On March 16 2013 11:57 Dfgj wrote:On March 16 2013 11:49 iamcaustic wrote:On March 16 2013 11:41 Dfgj wrote:On March 16 2013 11:38 iamcaustic wrote:On March 15 2013 07:41 Alzadar wrote:On March 15 2013 07:33 mordk wrote:
There's one thing about all the complaints I don't really ever begin to understand. Why are people so upset that Jim loves Kerrigan and doesn't have the guts to kill her?
I seriously do not understand how anyone who played SC doesn't really know Jim was ALWAYS in love with Kerrigan. This was always as obvious as it gets. And I got that when I played SC, being like.. 14? It isn't weird at all for me that Blizzard took this course for the Raynor-Kerrigan plot line, it seems rather obvious to me that Jim wouldn't be so heartless to just kill her, since he is hopelessly in love with her and has always been.
Otherwise, I agree, the story is weak, but I still have enjoyed the campaigns immensely.
I also liked the new characters, even though I agree that they're kinda forgettable. I have my hopes up for Zeratul, main character of LotV.
I've always thought there's 2 main problems with the people complaining.
First, people have COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC expectations of this game's story, of Diablo's storyline, and of any game's storyline really. If compared to more mature storytelling media, there's only a handful of good stories throughout the ENTIRETY of gaming's history. And that's fine, because it's evolving, it's a very young media. If you want deep storylines without the cheesiness, the plotholes, etc, either pick your games really carefully, or go back to books and movies.
Second, people seem to have a nostalgia-filled vision of the original SC's storyline. While it wasn't nearly as cheesy as this one, the truth is SC's storyline was pretty basic, and just as bad as this one. Blizzard's writers weren't geniuses then, and they aren't now. That doesn't stop me from enjoying it though, you just need to look at it for what it is and get off that high flying cloud you people live in. Well, one of the climactic moments of BW is Jim's anger after Fenix is killed: I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan! For Fenix, and all the others who got caught between you and your mad quest for power! It may not be tomorow, darlin', it may not even happen with an army at my back. But rest assured; I'm the man who's gonna kill you one day. I'll be seeing you. Basically all off the SC2 plot is subverting this, which sucks because it was such a cool scene. Uh, did you not play the HotS campaign or something? + Show Spoiler [HotS Story] +When Kerrigan breaks Jim out of the prison ship, the cut scene brings that whole situation to the forefront. Raynor basically repeats what he said in Brood War: "Tell that to Fenix. Tell that to the millions you butchered". Kerrigan hands him a gun and places the barrel on her forehead, saying specifically: "You promised you would kill the Queen of Blades".
You might be surprised by this, but sometimes a situation is more complicated than making a statement and following through. That you can't appreciate the depth of this scene isn't the fault of Blizzard's writers.
That's not depth. That's rewriting a character. The entire story of BW and the climax of Jim's character was hand-waved away by a few lines in that cutscene, meanwhile he was rewritten as utterly lovesick where no such thing was present before. Where "no such thing" was present before...? Please take a moment to actually play StarCraft 1 and follow up with some reading of StarCraft lore. I've played SC1 and SCBW. Recently. Then why are you being so utterly dishonest about Raynor/Kerrigan? I'm afraid people sharing a couple conversations doesn't mean they're desperately in love, except possibly in a Bioware game. edit: Also, I'm gonna get mad over Narud/Duran and Stukov. Duran had the shittiest ending of any mysterious character in SC. He was some cool black guy in BW who helped the UED, who then fooled the shit out of them, revealed that he's infested, and killed Stukov. The bonus mission then revealed that he was somehow in league with Amon, was thousands of years old, and that he was doing some Hybrid stuff. In HotS he is some mad scientist who makes Hybrids and gets killed by Kerrigan in a mission cyu bye.
Duran got probably the best death ever. In SC1 he was experimenting on hybrids, which is what he was doing in SC2. So I don't see how you can criticize this particular aspect of SC2 without being a complete hypocrite.
What did you expect?
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On March 15 2013 07:41 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 07:33 mordk wrote:
There's one thing about all the complaints I don't really ever begin to understand. Why are people so upset that Jim loves Kerrigan and doesn't have the guts to kill her?
I seriously do not understand how anyone who played SC doesn't really know Jim was ALWAYS in love with Kerrigan. This was always as obvious as it gets. And I got that when I played SC, being like.. 14? It isn't weird at all for me that Blizzard took this course for the Raynor-Kerrigan plot line, it seems rather obvious to me that Jim wouldn't be so heartless to just kill her, since he is hopelessly in love with her and has always been.
Otherwise, I agree, the story is weak, but I still have enjoyed the campaigns immensely.
I also liked the new characters, even though I agree that they're kinda forgettable. I have my hopes up for Zeratul, main character of LotV.
I've always thought there's 2 main problems with the people complaining.
First, people have COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC expectations of this game's story, of Diablo's storyline, and of any game's storyline really. If compared to more mature storytelling media, there's only a handful of good stories throughout the ENTIRETY of gaming's history. And that's fine, because it's evolving, it's a very young media. If you want deep storylines without the cheesiness, the plotholes, etc, either pick your games really carefully, or go back to books and movies.
Second, people seem to have a nostalgia-filled vision of the original SC's storyline. While it wasn't nearly as cheesy as this one, the truth is SC's storyline was pretty basic, and just as bad as this one. Blizzard's writers weren't geniuses then, and they aren't now. That doesn't stop me from enjoying it though, you just need to look at it for what it is and get off that high flying cloud you people live in. Well, one of the climactic moments of BW is Jim's anger after Fenix is killed: I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan! For Fenix, and all the others who got caught between you and your mad quest for power! It may not be tomorow, darlin', it may not even happen with an army at my back. But rest assured; I'm the man who's gonna kill you one day. I'll be seeing you. Basically all off the SC2 plot is subverting this, which sucks because it was such a cool scene.
Reading this reminded me that dialogue that wasn't along the lines of "you will never defeat me!" or "we must help before it is too late!" actually existed in Starcraft once.
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On March 16 2013 14:05 Gatesleeper wrote:Lauriel I've read every one of your posts, I just haven't directly replied to any of them because I think they're perhaps the most deluded and bogus rationalizations in this entire thread and not worth opinionating on. But let me just pick 1 solitary bone with you here. How can you in good conscience continue to argue that the whole idea of the "Primal Zerg" doesn't rewrite everything we've come to know about the history of the Zerg race, or that the "Amon's taint" plotline is a good explanation for Kerrigan's character progression and not a retcon. (And please, can we start calling it something else other than that terrible phrase? It makes it sound like we're talking about a certain area of Amon's genitals...) Retcon: Show nested quote +Wikipedia wrote:
Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work. Show nested quote +tvtropes wrote:
Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. When the inserted events work with what was previously stated, it's a Revision; when they outright replace it, it's a Rewrite. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on. Show nested quote +Wiktionary wrote:
A situation, in a soap opera or similar serial fiction, in which a new storyline explains or changes a previous event or attaches a new significance to it. Let's look at all the "not retcons" as told by Lauriel in HotS/SC2. Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 22:07 Lauriel wrote:
Amon's taint wasn't minor at all. It explained why Kerrigan was so much more humanized after the blast, even when she returned to being the queen of blades. That's a major reason some people are so up in arms right now, and it was explained right there in the story.
Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 22:28 Lauriel wrote:
The primal zerg don't and never did serve the overmind, so my guess is that Amon created the Overmind to rule the Zerg he took and shaped. Again, just my interpretation. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 00:00 Lauriel wrote:
Nothing was retconned. Kerrigan pre-xel'naga artifact cleansing was NOT the same as post. The xel'naga artifact cleansed her of Amon's taint, which was corrupting her and her motivations. She didn't even remember what she did as the Queen of Blades, and had to be re-informed of what she was. When she allowed herself to become the queen of blades, she did so without being corrupted by Amon, and kept elements of her humanity.
I swear this has been posted several times before. If you just hate that aspect of the story, you're free to do so, but nothing was retconned as far as her motivations. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 00:02 Lauriel wrote:
The Overmind didn't make her without the taint. He made a being that was capable of being cleansed of it, as she was not fully zerg and not created by Amon, and cunning and powerful enough to one day rule the swarm. His relief (as described in WoL) over being killed was due to the fact that with her in control of the swarm, if she were to be cleaned, the swarm would be free. His plan was one step closer to being carried out. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 01:00 Lauriel wrote:
I think you misunderstood me. The Overmind wasn't prophetic in the sense that it knew Kerrigan would be cleansed. Rather, he realized that it was the only chance the Zerg had to ever be free. He took a long shot, and it paid off.
In other words, he realized that he had no chance to ever be freed, and that in order for the Zerg to ever be free, a leader would have to take power who could, potentially, be rid of Amon's influence. He never knew how (or if) it would happen, but he planted a seed and hoped that one day it would work, and it did. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 09:49 Lauriel wrote:
The backstory that was developed was that of the swarm, IE the zerg that Amon took and corrupted from Zerus. Not the primals. And my personal favourite hilarious 1-2 punch: Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 10:34 Lauriel wrote:
I don't think so. Earth was a volcanic world too long ago. Look what happened over time. It evolved along with the life on it. Seems reasonable to think Zerus could be the same. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 11:00 Dfgj wrote:
The scope of time between the Xel'Naga upbringing of the Zerg is probably a bit less than billions of years. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 13:13 Lauriel wrote:
That's an assumption you can't make. All I'm saying is that there's precedent.
Lauriel is right. None of these are retcons.
On the primal zerg, there was nothing revealed that directly contradicted previously established continuity. The closest would be the retcon that Zerus was a volcanic world, now it's a lush jungle. But maybe different parts of the planet have different environments. In SC1 it was explained the zerg were created without an Overmind at first, so they were free before the creation of the Overmind. There's no retcon here.
On Kerrigan as the Queen of Blades being different from pre-infestation Kerrigan and Amon's corruption, this also doesn't directly contradict previous continuity. In SC1, Kerrigan clearly says that she likes who she has become and is in full control. It obviously implied that she has free will as the Queen of Blades. But in SC2, it's reveal that she didn't: that Sarah Kerrigan is a separate personality from the Queen of Blades. But this isn't a retcon, because she could have said those things due to not having free will and because of Amon's corruption.
On this point, it's awful storytelling. It clearly goes against the original storywriter's intent that Kerrigan as the Queen of Blades had free will, that the Queen of Blades is precisely Sarah Kerrigan. But it's not a contradiction. It's taking the story in lame direction, completely destroying the character that was built up in SC1. So you can argue that is bad, because it is, but it's not a a recton.
They should have kept Sarah Kerrigan as the Queen of Blades, a powerful and evil villainess, that enjoys by her own free will, being powerful and evil
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