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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 10:45 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 09:44 las91 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:40 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I know as of MLG arena qualifier he didnt hack because I cheesed him 2 games in a row and won. Considering this is a series not mentioned in the scope of this particular (213 page O.o) thread I don't really understand the point of your post sir. This isn't a trial, character witnesses aren't exactly necessary... Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Nerchio is hardly multiple. cArn and Attero are pretty biased since cArn has lived with him in the GOM house and they're friends and Attero was his former teammate and they're friends.
Shouldn't you out the people who are accusing him too? I mean Mirhi is out for Spades blood by all accounts. A few other pros have lost matches against him in ladder and they just can't comprehend how in the world a mediocre player was able to beat them so it must be hacking.. ah well, we could go on with this fruitless discussion, the crux of the matter is in the accuser and so far there is no conclusive evidence of maphacking. period.
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On June 06 2012 10:30 warshop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:27 skeptic916 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:07 Monochromatic wrote:
Why doesn't someone download the maphacks and see how they work so we can just get this whole thing cleared up. I think it would be productive if we had someone who was familiar with these hacks to a degree that they could point out certain definitive things in the replay that proves without a doubt that some tomfoolery happened. I hear a lot of people talking about camera lock, positioning insights that are unlikely and certain other potentially damning clues, but I am reluctant condemn him as a cheater without having a bit more knowledge of the means by which he potentially hacked and how they operate. I myself am unwilling to even go to a website that hosts this sort of thing, let alone install them and use them even for research into the matter. But maybe someone like the Zergthrowaway guy on reddit or someone who knows a few people who use SC2 hacks intimately could weigh in on the subject with a little more depth, despite their now nefarious rep in the community. The one part of this that really does stink to me is the apparent multiplicity of instances. Although they are few and far between enough to seem, on one level, purely circumstantial, the fact that this issues has come up numerous times with a single personality in our community does bother me a great deal. That compounded by more replays slowly trickling into light that confirm the darkest suspicions about Spades make for an all in all ruinous set of circumstances for him, innocent or not. I hope someone can figure out more surefire ways of detecting cheating and hacking as discussed in this thread. Firstly to protect innocent players who could be wrongly accused, but most importantly to protect the integrity of our game, scene and tournaments. I'll quote myself. See the description of both Camera lock and Watch player camera. Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 09:50 warshop wrote:An exhaustive list of features of a paid maphack : + Show Spoiler +Features:
Warden Protection
Version checker
Configurable hotkeys
3-state Maphack
-> Show units on mainmap & minimap
-> Show invisible/burrowed units
-> Show hallucinated units
-> Show Zerg creep
-> Hear sounds under fog of war
-> Enable selections under fog of war (client-sided)
-> View what your enemy is training/researching or the contents of selected
-> Graphical bugs fixed
Camera Lock
Show player selections
Show player clicks
Enable observer panel
-> Set to Production tab when game starts
-> Filter out local player
-> Filter out allied players
-> Filter out unwanted units and researches
-> Apply filtering for units and researches after X game seconds
-> Allow clicks through Production and Units tab information
Enable color/race icon
Watch player camera
Auto-start
-> Auto-mine minerals
-> Auto-create 1 worker
-> Auto-rally main building to local mineral patch
Auto-larva
-> Auto-group queens
Auto-mule
Auto-group buildings
Award achievements
Tac nuke strike alert
Nydus worm alert
Unit alert
Camera zoom out
Instant win against A.I. Also, here's a description of the interesting features : Camera lockLock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it on by accident. Watch player cameraWatch the camera movement of any player in real time, it also works like camera lock so everything is client-sided and not saved into the replay.
It says if camera lock is turned on and you try to move units it cancels the camera lock as a fail safe. Which means that whilst camera lock is on you shouldn't be able to issue commands to units. Not are what other commands you are unable to issue without deactivating camera lock, but shouldn't it mean his whilst the camera lock is supposedly on, his APM drops to zero? Somebody said earlier his APM only dropped to zero like once in 7 games.
Also I find the '10-15 second' camera locks people keep saying happened whilst he was allegedly peeking into FOW a bit redundant. Given all the features of these hacks why would anyone (a pro especially) feel the need to look into FOW for 10 seconds at a time? Surely they could just look at the rest of the UI production tabs the hack provides. Wouldn't spending 10 seconds at a time looking into FOW and hence being unable to do anything else at this time be counter productive?
This + the debunking magic scan that a caster did in a YouTube vid should at least cause people to question whether he really is guilty.
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On June 06 2012 10:27 skeptic916 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:07 Monochromatic wrote:
Why doesn't someone download the maphacks and see how they work so we can just get this whole thing cleared up. I think it would be productive if we had someone who was familiar with these hacks to a degree that they could point out certain definitive things in the replay that proves without a doubt that some tomfoolery happened. I hear a lot of people talking about camera lock, positioning insights that are unlikely and certain other potentially damning clues, but I am reluctant condemn him as a cheater without having a bit more knowledge of the means by which he potentially hacked and how they operate. I myself am unwilling to even go to a website that hosts this sort of thing, let alone install them and use them even for research into the matter. But maybe someone like the Zergthrowaway guy on reddit or someone who knows a few people who use SC2 hacks intimately could weigh in on the subject with a little more depth, despite their now nefarious rep in the community. The one part of this that really does stink to me is the apparent multiplicity of instances. Although they are few and far between enough to seem, on one level, purely circumstantial, the fact that this issues has come up numerous times with a single personality in our community does bother me a great deal. That compounded by more replays slowly trickling into light that confirm the darkest suspicions about Spades make for an all in all ruinous set of circumstances for him, innocent or not. I hope someone can figure out more surefire ways of detecting cheating and hacking as discussed in this thread. Firstly to protect innocent players who could be wrongly accused, but most importantly to protect the integrity of our game, scene and tournaments.
people have been trying to figure out a surefire way to detect hacks for years, punkbuster is in a constant arms race with the hackers and are always one step behind. For instance back in BF2, punkbuster would use submitted screenshots to help detect hacks, my clan set up a feed of punkbuster ss's and we would all look thru as many as we could each day and submit any that showed someone hacking. punkbuster would then do the research and suddenly that hack was busted, but the moment people started receiving bans, the hack makers would just update the hack to be undetectable again and we would start the process over again and again and again.
There was a very well known hack in BF2 that was basically paid for but the hack makers didn't sell it to you like that, you paid for "premium" forum access which just happened to be the only place to get the hack download (which you had to log in with ur forum account info to use to play, yes we did our research) and Punkbuster openly had an account on the site which they used to foil the hackers.... to no avail. Every time they cracked the new code, it got updated. It's stupid. This is an issue that will simply never go away.
As for spades, I have a few things that bug me about his alleged hacking:
1) Why would you hack during a show match set up by your own team in the first place? Spades is supposedly a "good" hacker. Anyone with a brain knows that using a hack when your own team is setting up the match is a bone headed thing to do.
2) why would he stream so many games without using hacks and then all of a sudden use them in a show match? again, seems like a completely bone headed thing to do.
3) A good hacker knows how to keep a low profile, I spent years admining FPS servers and the good hackers took weeks and weeks to catch because they wouldn't be stupid and go 100-0 KDR every single game and make impossible sniper shots every few seconds. A good hacker plays clever, Spades isn't some kid who just discovered hacking and decided to abuse it to its full potential... he is a proven hacker from BW and would surely know about the screen lock feature and not use it. He's a good enough player that simply having a minimap hack would give him all the info he would need.
4) good hackers don't change their game play when hacking vs not hacking. So basically if Spades is hacking, he is not only a moron for doing it, a bigger moron for doing during his own teams show match but a terrible hacker to boot.
I am no expert in SC2 or hacking SC2 but I was at finding them in BF2, punkbuster can chalk up over 1000 hack detections to me scouring thru screenshots and noticing the tiny things that gave it away. It just doesn't make sense to me that Spades would go from playing clean on ladder and streaming it all to hacking a show match and losing to boot. Maybe he hacked, maybe he didn't but no one has yet to show me something that is anything near what I would call concrete proof.
One of the things on that Antiga game that catz reviewed was his movement around the watch tower, at one point he moves down and then he sees a hellion moving back up and around the other way and sends his troops back up, when catz was reviewing said replay he didn't seem to note that fact. I noticed it and thought, well if i saw that hellion going back the other way, I'd assume the rest of the army was goin that way too. I honestly don't know either way for sure and in any court of law, that makes him innocent. He doesn't have to prove his innocence, his accusers have to prove his guilt.
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On June 06 2012 10:50 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:45 IcedBacon wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 09:44 las91 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:40 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I know as of MLG arena qualifier he didnt hack because I cheesed him 2 games in a row and won. Considering this is a series not mentioned in the scope of this particular (213 page O.o) thread I don't really understand the point of your post sir. This isn't a trial, character witnesses aren't exactly necessary... Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Nerchio is hardly multiple. cArn and Attero are pretty biased since cArn has lived with him in the GOM house and they're friends and Attero was his former teammate and they're friends. Shouldn't you out the people who are accusing him too? I mean Mirhi is out for Spades blood by all accounts. A few other pros have lost matches against him in ladder and they just can't comprehend how in the world a mediocre player was able to beat them so it must be hacking.. ah well, we could go on with this fruitless discussion, the crux of the matter is in the accuser and so far there is no conclusive evidence of maphacking. period.
You say CatZ and co's analysis was bad and biased yet the majority of pros who say he wasn't hacking are his friends. And the most important things from their analysis was not disproven. All it needs to come down to is why his mechanical play is so different in the series compared to the 50 other replays, with the FOW issues and whatnot.
It's conclusive enough given his history and how that point still remains undebated.
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On June 06 2012 08:16 Bogeyman wrote:
32:44 - Class 4 - ... he reacts too fast (after Lucifron let the pressure off on the 3rd) and too drastically for it to be anything other than a hack.
If I point out that the 3rd he was leaving was mined out and therefore expendable, would you still consider this Class 4
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No one is going to read this, but I want to inform noobs.
If you're bad, and you hack, you can be very good. You can't beat players whose mechanics are simply superior IE superior Macro, but you can heavily outperform equal skill.
If you're GOOD, and you hack, you go straight to #1 GM. Because the game is about missing information, when you have that, how can you possibly lose? Well, the answer is that sometimes you can still mess up, especially if you're trying to make it look like you don't hack. How do you make it look like you don't hack? The obvious ways are to use a production hack overlay, and to use maphack on only the minimap. The reason is because that way you have no reason to go looking around fog of war, you have all the information you 'need' right there.
And how else do you make it look like you aren't hacking? You send BS scouts that you don't need, you make intentional, minor mistakes. You do actions that you would do while you're not hacking.
But ultimately, if you are a good player and hacker, you don't even need the hack, so the only time you would use it is when it matters. Like to win a showmatch to get your name more credibility, or to rise to #1 GM for the awareness. You'd probably have to throw some games otherwise it would start to get really obvious with a 85%+ win rate.
For the record I have never hacked, but I've played SC1, WC3, and SC2 at the Master+ level in all three games. If you know what to look for and have played enough strategy games, you can spot hackers easily. Another example was Sorcery who would hack in 2v2, and maybe still does to this day. His teams would never, ever scout, always blind hard counter you, yet he would never look in fog of war or any other signs. Because having a production hack alone turns a good player into a god player.
Anyway, I hope that helps clear up some of the really poor arguments trying to defend the hacker, Spades. There is no doubt, he is a hacker and he hacked in those showmatch games and others.
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On June 06 2012 08:54 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 08:16 Bogeyman wrote:On June 06 2012 05:10 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 05:05 Bogeyman wrote:On June 06 2012 01:38 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 06 2012 01:17 Bogeyman wrote:
Okay fine... instead of jumping the band-waggon "blindly" (I saw Catz and co stream their analysis) I'll look through the replays myself. I haven't even looked at the exact points brought up in the OP, and I'll just look through the replays myself and see if I find anything strange. I'll rate everything in terms of how suspicious I find it. Even though I'm not exactly qualified to make exact judgments on how suspicious something is, it is a clear way for me to explain myself.
Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play
Class 2 - Rather odd
Class 3 - Seems fishy
Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior
Class 5 - Clear proof
Map: Shattered Temple
6:03 - Class 1 - Blindly builds a raven a few seconds after cloak and a banshee starts for Lucifron. In Spades' defense he was already going for double-gas and was looking to go for either banshees or a raven way before it was clear that Lucifron was gonna go banshees.
7:09 -> 7:20 - Class 2 - Spades is staring at his base for a long time. What is he doing? With the screen right there, why isn't he building SCVs?
7:20 - Class 1 - Ravens and marines move into a good position to intecept the incoming banshee. Spades has no vision of it nor does he have any conclusive evidence that Lucifron is going banshees. However, he does see a hellion at his front, and since it's close-by-air it's not a bad idea to prepare for banshees so it could just be smart play.
8:00 - Class 4 - Screen pans towards Lucifron's main but stops dead before it reaches the fog. His raven+viking is issued a command to move over the gap between the bases, and shortly thereafter Spades also clicks them into the main without looking there, so unless he hacks he would have to click the minimap. It seems highly unlikely to pan towards a location, stop right before the fog, click over the gap on screen then move your cursor to the minimap and click in the main from there. The more likely behavior is to keep panning into the main (if you're already panning, and it's a short distance) and click when you reach the end location. This type of behavior, if consistent during e.g. a showmatch but basically never happens in normal play on ladder and such, should be enough to be considered as some sort of proof. On it's own it's just really weird behavior.
11:59 - Class 0 - Here Spades genuinely looks through the fog, at Lucifron's main base. It is part of moving his medivac over here, so he's obviously right-clicking the ground (three times, nothing weird about that). So this makes me wonder about what I heard regarding over-riding the screen lock if you right-click. We really need some sort of confirmation on that until this point can be dismissed as counter-evidence.
11:57 - Class 0? - Upon further examination I noticed some clicking in the main of Lucifron. It's right-clicking with the medivac, but you can't see these initial clicks if you stick the the Spades cam. These clicks probably only mean he first right-clicked on the minimap, then left-clicked and continued to right-click on the ground. There's even a brief pause between these clicks before looking at the fog and then the subsequent clicks looking at the fog. So there's really no doubt this is what happened, and it's not anything weird. I still mention it because it may be important once we know exactly how the screen locking works. Spades did look straight into the fog before right-clicking there on the ground but after right-clicking there via the minimap. Can this be replicated with the screen locking hack? If not, well then that's in Spades' favor. If it can be replicated, well then it just means that it's not in favor of either side of the argument.
I'll analyze the rest of the replays later. I've already missed quite a bit of E3. I look forward to more of your analysis. Edit: Papaz and others interested in the OP's identity will find a more suitable thread here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14942771 It's nice to see someone appreciates it. ^^ So, moving on to the next replay. I'm probably doing them backwards but whatever... Again, these are my rates of suspicion: Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play Class 2 - Rather odd Class 3 - Seems fishy Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior Class 5 - Clear proof Map: MLG Daybreak 2:52 - Class 2 - His SCV arrives and sits idle in Lucifrons main, and Spades jumps to it, clicks three times in the general direction of the ramp, then comes back to his own main and sends the SCV back home. He does not scout the left gas, get a good view of the saturation or attempt to look for anything that may be hidden in the fog inside Lucifron's main. He could just suspect a one-rax fast expand given the map and what he has seen Lucifron do in other matches, but it's still odd that he doesn't even try to scout both geysers. On his way out he does not catch of glimpse of the SCV that is ready to build a CC at the nat (in fact Lucifron purposely hides it). If perhaps Spades has brilliant minimap awareness he might have noticed that the SCV that built the barracks went down the ramp just as Spades' SCV enters. He was busy in his own main at the time, and it was only visible for a split second. 2:57 - Class 2 - Without any clear scouting information Spades sends an SCV to build the CC on the low-ground in his nat. Lucifron also does this, but he did check both geysers beforehand. It's just a bit odd though, that Spades wouldn't even try to check both geysers with that in mind. 4:06 - Class 2 - I was considering this might be a class 3, but... he could just be taking a huge risk, hoping Lucifron does what he has done before. It's still a stupid risk. Either way, at 4:06 Spades selects an SCV and sends it to his 3rd with the obvious intent of building another CC. At this time Lucifron still has no gas and only one barracks, but of course Spades has no vision of this, nor does he control any of the watchtowers. Once the SCV reaches the 3rd Lucifron has just recently started building his 3rd CC, smartly inside his main. Spades subsequently builds his CC at the 3rd. A couple seconds afterwards Spades takes the watchtower on his side with 2 marines. 12:39 - Class 1 - A marine in a scouting position is attacked and killed by Lucifrons main army moving towards Spades' constructing 4th. Spades doesn't try to look at the army to see the army composition, which is a bit weird, but it is also understandable and plausible that he wanted to focus on his commencing drop in Lucifron's 3rd, and he may well have simply assumed Lucifron's army composition would be as expected. Also, Spades had seen the double e-bay, 3rax with a techlab and two reactors, and a factory building a reactor for the a starport, so he was right to assume what unit composition would be there, except of course if there are any vikings mixed in with the medivacs or not. 14:30 - Class 2 - I remember Catz and the boys mentioning this. As far as Spades knows (shown by a scan a little while ago) Lucifron is sieged up right in front of his army, and just out of siege range. Lucifron's medivacs come into his vision, and Spades sends his entire marine force forward, straight into potential siege attacks. Why would he do that? Luckily (unless hacking) for Spades, Lucifron just unsieged his tanks and moved back with everything except his medivacs. Still, people make mistakes like this in positional TvT games, just not quite so obvious mistakes. 14:38 - Class 0 - If you want to argue Spades made mistakes he wouldn't have if he was hacking, this might be one of them. Spades moves a medivac into position for yet another drop at the 3rd of Lucifron, but now there's a turret there waiting for him and it kills the medivac with all but one marine in it. It really doesn't prove anything one way or another though, as even with maphack it's by no means certain that Spades would look there and/or notice the turret. Also, after some more looking around it seems the turret wasn't actually there when Spades sent the medivac in the first place. Hey, maybe Lucifron is the one hacking, building turrets when he sees medivacs coming? No... let's get back to being serious... 16:00 - Class 3 - Shortly up to this point there has been a lot of weird shadow-boxing going on. Granted Spades could just be moving his army around based on guess-work (an army killed a marine, then he had no idea where it kept moving, sent one marine to spot if the army went via the potential 5th base, and a scan from Lucifron. All the army movement of Spades' main army was based on that limited intel, and it mirrors Lucifron's hidden army movement rather well.) But it's possibly legit, and such things can happen. What stands out more to me the weird movement right at 16:00. He's about to go kill the rocks, but suddenly turns around and goes straight up the ramp where there may be an army of tanks sieged up for all Spades can see. He leads with his tanks and moves in a big clumped ball. The prize that's awaiting is unguarded medivacs once again, this time they were not even close to being in his vision and yet he sends his army straight to their location. Why doesn't he stim right away and pick them off? Well that would be too obvious. That would be a class 4 or even a 5, definitely a 5 if he stimmed a big group of marines. A single stimmed marine would be less suspicious to me than the clumped ball. Anyway, to make matters even more weird: as his army moves in a ball up the ramp, before he spots the unguarded medivacs, he goes back into his main and just leaves his army to it's fate. What does he do in the main? He seems to be selected the factories and starport, then switches to the barracks, and back and forth for a little bit. He's maxed so he doesn't actually need to do anything there except maybe add more barracks, which he doesn't. 17:31 - Class 2 - He sends his army towards the 3rd of Lucifron without scanning. He doesn't scan a single time to get positional information. He doesn't even look at his army as it approaches the 3rd. When it gets there he looks over and starts sieging, stimming etc. Why no scans? He has a total of 7 scans saved up before the attack, but instead of scanning he lands 3 mules at his 4th as his tanks are moving into who knows what. In his defense, and why I don't see this as a class 3 (though perhaps I should) is that in the last couple of minutes Lucifron has lost quite a bit of tanks, so perhaps Spades just isn't afraid. Still, he's leading with 8 tanks, 2 marines and 4 medivacs. If he's caught out of position he could lose a lot, but it could be prevented by a scan. It's really weird, but not conclusive evidence. I just gotta say my respect for Lucifron grew like hell watching that game. Even at the end when he ggs he's actually got a big lead in army size. His macro is amazing, it looked like Spades was just copying what Lucifron was doing, only taking slightly bigger risks (like not scout correctly and still build everything on the low-ground, scanning very rarely etc). I'll review another game soon I guess. + Show Spoiler +
I really like the way you've broken this down fair and objectively. I was going to do this but you beat me to it. :D Please continue. Also please analyze the Theognis vs Spades pack that Illusion posted, with the same format?
Thanks! I'll see if I can get to the Theognis games before I tire or it feels like the discussion is over anyways. I guess with Spades leaving WW and possibly sc2 (?) we may not need to talk much more about it. But just for the sake of making sure I'll keep analyzing some more replays. Also, thanks to BoZiffer for the nice comment as well. Rates of suspicion: Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play Class 2 - Rather odd Class 3 - Seems fishy Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior Class 5 - Clear proof Map: MLG Tal'Darim Altar 4:03 - Class 0 - He sends his marines to the watchtower. He clicks once to get the marines to move a bit, then switches over to the watchtower and clicks once there. So I don't know exactly how the screen locking hack works but this time at least he didn't click into the fog of war before looking at it, unlike the game on Shattered Temple where he right-clicked on the minimap first. Unless you can replicate that with a hack active (move screen to a location with fog of war, then right-click) and it still showing in the replay as if you move there before right-clicking your units there, this so far looks like he didn't hack in this game. Of course, you may still argue that he's stream-cheating or maybe using a different version of the hack this game. x:xx - Class 1 - So Spades is making a crapton of hellions in this game, from double-factory with tech-lab/reactor for blue-flame, and he really doesn't have any way to know if his opponent went 3-rax into gas or quick double gas and maybe banshees. But I will give him the benefit of a doubt, because at least he did see no gas at the start, so that's probably a 1-rax fast expand, and Spades is free to cross his fingers and hope there won't be any banshees incoming. Either way, at 7:20 he moves out with his hellions and checks the front and finds a bunker with two marines in it and 5 additional marines outside (though in fact there are 8 outside of the bunker, but Spades doesn't see it). That's a few marines, but not too many to say there can't be a banshee coming. Still Spades waits to build a starport for almost another minute, instead getting an armory first. Seems very risky, but it could just be that Spades was convinced of how Lucifron would play the map. 17:03 - Class 0 - Not much weird happens up until now (like 5 minor things occur, like movements with the hellions and such, but they really don't prove anything), and what happens now was pointed out as something hackish, but I just don't see it. What happens is Lucifron loads up a big drop to attack Spades' nat. What seemed suspicious was how Spades grouped his vikings and put them in a good position. The thing is the rally for the starport was right there anyway, and Spades only really selected all the vikings, added them to a control group (over-riding the hellions' group), and moved them an inch north. And before that he sieged his tanks. But this can't even have been a reaction to the drop, as the medivacs weren't loaded when the tanks sieged and the vikings were grouped basically at exactly the same time as the medivacs were loading. Sure, the positioning of Lucifron's units (if Spades' was hacking) was indicating he was going to drop, but it wasn't that certain. Regardless, Spades positioned himself well for an attack at the nat, whether by ground or air. The back/north of the main was protected by turrets, the hellions recently saw the position of the army, so even if an attack might come from way the fuck around the right side, it wasn't gonna come just yet. Well I guess there's always the possibility for a drop, but Spades had a pretty good setup at the time. 18:22 - Class 1 - This might seem suspicious, so I'll mention it even if I don't think it means much. Spades unsieges and moves closer to the ramp, and also a bit closer to his 3rd. He stays unsieged, which of course would be bad if a full-on frontal assault comes marching in. However, he just defeated a decent portion of Lucifron's army, and he hasn't seen where the rest if his army is, and he has basically no map vision. So unsieging his tanks gives him a chance to react to an attack at both his nat or his 3rd. Now maybe it would be even better if he set up a siege-line to cover both his nat and his 3rd, but I'm not sure if he has enough tanks (5) to do that without just spreading himself too thin and die from a flank with any decent amount of marauders in it. Either way this doesn't prove much of anything, and perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it at all. 19:13 - Class 1 - Another thing I think was mentioned by someone on the call with Catz. As Lucifron's army approaches, without Spades seeing any of it, Spades sets up a great siege-line from his nat to his 3rd. It's not such a weird thing to do though, since now he has a much better tank count, and he can try to defend both locations. 32:14 - Class 0 - Here's a great scan from Spades, catching the army trying to approach the 3rd. I'm not sure, but I think catz and the boys mentioned this scan? I know it's not the magic scan they refer to, and it looks nothing like those scans regardless of them being magic or not. Anyway, this one can't be seen as a hack scan (scanning so you can act on what you already know) as he scans two other key locations that are empty before he finally finds the army. So far the game looks mostly legit. 32:44 - Class 4 - I might consider this a Class 4 (well actually, I do... I changed my mind after finishing this segment) if it wasn't for the fact that it's been a long game, Spades is probably stressed out, and Lucifron has been drilling the back of his main all game long, so now that he has fended off an attack at the 3rd (though the threat remains), I'm not entirely convinced he can't just snap and think "oh holy crap I don't have a spotter for the back of my main!" and totally over-react. However, it's also entirely possible that he's been so busy dealing with the attack at the 3rd and is exhausted from all the other attacks all over the place that he wasn't watching the minimap, seeing the army unloading in his main (with a maphack), and when he finally looked down and saw a blob of blue there he panicked and grabbed way too many units, even though he should've known the threat on the right side was just as bad, with or without a hack. At 32:39 it is very apparent that he wants to send his units straight towards that area (well, right next to it) in the main where Lucifron is unloading. You can see the air units are selected and there's a right-click a bit to the right of where the army is. Now, even if I think that perhaps Spades could think "oh crap, is my back protected?", he reacts too fast (after Lucifron let the pressure off on the 3rd) and too drastically for it to be anything other than a hack. I mean, that's what I think, but it's still not hard evidence. Also, if his thought-process is "I have to make sure my main isn't dropped" he would either instantly drop a scan (he does that much later, when his army is more or less in place to defend already) or he would at least let the vikings keep flying to scout the area. Instead he hesitates and stops his air units and moves them a bit to the right instead. Why the heck would he do that if he wants to stop a potential drop? The only thing I can think of is that if he is using a hack, he would think "I can't let him know that I'm getting in position. I need him to stay put while I get there". Maybe, just maybe he thinks he needs his vikings with his clump of tanks at his natural in case of an attack there. But why is this not true a couple seconds later when he moves lots of tanks and all the air units to his main and THEN scans Lucifron's army? He had a ton of energy for scans saved up! So that's enough for today... I could look at the Theognis games tomorrow if anyone still cares. As for the verdict so far: it's surely leaning towards guilty. But we really do need to clear up exactly how the screen lock works, and replicate the results we see in the game to see if it's possible. Because I have found a few situations where he does look into the fog of war right before he right-clicks on the ground. Wouldn't the hack let me see the place right as the click is done, not before? Of course, it may just manipulate the replay file. But then if you're watching a hacker live from his point of view, can the hack prevent an observer/referee to notice he's looking into the fog? These are things we need to clear up before we can say for sure that Spades is a hacker. Read every word, thanks a lot for all the work. It really helps put things in focus. I do not know if I agree with your tentative conclusion of guilty, yet, though. There are a number of class 0's which require some more analysis from the perspective of how the hack works (but you already know this). As for the 32nd minute of the Tal'darim game, there's a blue blip on the minimap for Spades a bit earlier. That could be the cause of grabbing that army and then scanning. What do you think? Thanks again.
Well, if you saw a blip, you'd scan to see what it was (or at least move your camera to the location), rather than blindly move your entire army, no? Even with the blip, he didn't know it was a massive drop, and he still stopped his army a good ways before the drop, and scanned at a completely suboptimal time.
I'm super suspicious personally because I had actually discussed with a few other people on ladder Spades maphacking about 2 months ago. I wish I didn't delete my replays. He went 4-0 vs me as rank 1 GM, and countered my builds pretty well all four matches. Last match I also took a hidden expansion, which at first I thought "oh, he didn't scout it so he doesn't MH because he never killed it" but upon analyzing later, I realized it was the only match in our 4 games he actually went for a really quick 2 base allin (despite him telling me earlier he doesn't do them anymore) that really punished that quick third. He said he was super uncomfortable with 2 base pressure in TvZ and rather had "just really figured out the matchup in its entirety in the last 2 months."
Was super strange to me, as I used to consistently beat Spades pretty handedly. That and I asked another friend, who said he used to pretty much stomp Spades and then suddenly went 0-5 vs him on ladder, and he suspected MH by his play which was why he messaged me. We concluded it was possible, but certainly not definite by any means, and just kinda let it go.
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On June 06 2012 10:50 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:45 IcedBacon wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 09:44 las91 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:40 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I know as of MLG arena qualifier he didnt hack because I cheesed him 2 games in a row and won. Considering this is a series not mentioned in the scope of this particular (213 page O.o) thread I don't really understand the point of your post sir. This isn't a trial, character witnesses aren't exactly necessary... Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Nerchio is hardly multiple. cArn and Attero are pretty biased since cArn has lived with him in the GOM house and they're friends and Attero was his former teammate and they're friends. Shouldn't you out the people who are accusing him too? I mean Mirhi is out for Spades blood by all accounts. A few other pros have lost matches against him in ladder and they just can't comprehend how in the world a mediocre player was able to beat them so it must be hacking.. ah well, we could go on with this fruitless discussion, the crux of the matter is in the accuser and so far there is no conclusive evidence of maphacking. period.
Why is Mirhi out for Spades blood by all accounts?
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On June 06 2012 10:47 JustTray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:44 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:11 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 09:44 las91 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:40 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I know as of MLG arena qualifier he didnt hack because I cheesed him 2 games in a row and won. Considering this is a series not mentioned in the scope of this particular (213 page O.o) thread I don't really understand the point of your post sir. This isn't a trial, character witnesses aren't exactly necessary... Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Name them. Nerchio and Attero come to mind. Haha, I've played Attero. No WAY he says this guy isn't hacking. Show me a quote. Also, where was the discrepency between ladder games and the play in his show match disproven? Would love to see how that is rationally explained, since there is only one possible explanation.
Somehow I don't connect the dots between you playing Attero and you being absolutely certain about his opinions... being that prejudiced can only blind your reasoning imho. The guy above you said the same about Attero.. look it up yourself.
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On June 06 2012 10:07 GoonSack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 09:40 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I know as of MLG arena qualifier he didnt hack because I cheesed him 2 games in a row and won. Ok thanks for telling us how well he plays when not hacking. When at home with no one watching though he's rank 1 GM..
And all the replays of him hacking into #1 GM is where now?
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On June 06 2012 10:47 JustTray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:44 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:11 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 09:44 las91 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:40 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I know as of MLG arena qualifier he didnt hack because I cheesed him 2 games in a row and won. Considering this is a series not mentioned in the scope of this particular (213 page O.o) thread I don't really understand the point of your post sir. This isn't a trial, character witnesses aren't exactly necessary... Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Name them. Nerchio and Attero come to mind. Haha, I've played Attero. No WAY he says this guy isn't hacking. Show me a quote. Also, where was the discrepency between ladder games and the play in his show match disproven? Would love to see how that is rationally explained, since there is only one possible explanation.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
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On June 06 2012 10:55 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:50 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:45 IcedBacon wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 09:44 las91 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:40 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I know as of MLG arena qualifier he didnt hack because I cheesed him 2 games in a row and won. Considering this is a series not mentioned in the scope of this particular (213 page O.o) thread I don't really understand the point of your post sir. This isn't a trial, character witnesses aren't exactly necessary... Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Nerchio is hardly multiple. cArn and Attero are pretty biased since cArn has lived with him in the GOM house and they're friends and Attero was his former teammate and they're friends. Shouldn't you out the people who are accusing him too? I mean Mirhi is out for Spades blood by all accounts. A few other pros have lost matches against him in ladder and they just can't comprehend how in the world a mediocre player was able to beat them so it must be hacking.. ah well, we could go on with this fruitless discussion, the crux of the matter is in the accuser and so far there is no conclusive evidence of maphacking. period. Why is Mirhi out for Spades blood by all accounts?
Look it up yourself
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On June 06 2012 10:51 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:30 warshop wrote:On June 06 2012 10:27 skeptic916 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:07 Monochromatic wrote:
Why doesn't someone download the maphacks and see how they work so we can just get this whole thing cleared up. I think it would be productive if we had someone who was familiar with these hacks to a degree that they could point out certain definitive things in the replay that proves without a doubt that some tomfoolery happened. I hear a lot of people talking about camera lock, positioning insights that are unlikely and certain other potentially damning clues, but I am reluctant condemn him as a cheater without having a bit more knowledge of the means by which he potentially hacked and how they operate. I myself am unwilling to even go to a website that hosts this sort of thing, let alone install them and use them even for research into the matter. But maybe someone like the Zergthrowaway guy on reddit or someone who knows a few people who use SC2 hacks intimately could weigh in on the subject with a little more depth, despite their now nefarious rep in the community. The one part of this that really does stink to me is the apparent multiplicity of instances. Although they are few and far between enough to seem, on one level, purely circumstantial, the fact that this issues has come up numerous times with a single personality in our community does bother me a great deal. That compounded by more replays slowly trickling into light that confirm the darkest suspicions about Spades make for an all in all ruinous set of circumstances for him, innocent or not. I hope someone can figure out more surefire ways of detecting cheating and hacking as discussed in this thread. Firstly to protect innocent players who could be wrongly accused, but most importantly to protect the integrity of our game, scene and tournaments. I'll quote myself. See the description of both Camera lock and Watch player camera. On June 06 2012 09:50 warshop wrote:An exhaustive list of features of a paid maphack : + Show Spoiler +Features:
Warden Protection
Version checker
Configurable hotkeys
3-state Maphack
-> Show units on mainmap & minimap
-> Show invisible/burrowed units
-> Show hallucinated units
-> Show Zerg creep
-> Hear sounds under fog of war
-> Enable selections under fog of war (client-sided)
-> View what your enemy is training/researching or the contents of selected
-> Graphical bugs fixed
Camera Lock
Show player selections
Show player clicks
Enable observer panel
-> Set to Production tab when game starts
-> Filter out local player
-> Filter out allied players
-> Filter out unwanted units and researches
-> Apply filtering for units and researches after X game seconds
-> Allow clicks through Production and Units tab information
Enable color/race icon
Watch player camera
Auto-start
-> Auto-mine minerals
-> Auto-create 1 worker
-> Auto-rally main building to local mineral patch
Auto-larva
-> Auto-group queens
Auto-mule
Auto-group buildings
Award achievements
Tac nuke strike alert
Nydus worm alert
Unit alert
Camera zoom out
Instant win against A.I. Also, here's a description of the interesting features : Camera lockLock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it on by accident. Watch player cameraWatch the camera movement of any player in real time, it also works like camera lock so everything is client-sided and not saved into the replay. It says if camera lock is turned on and you try to move units it cancels the camera lock as a fail safe. Which means that whilst camera lock is on you shouldn't be able to issue commands to units. Not are what other commands you are unable to issue without deactivating camera lock, but shouldn't it mean his whilst the camera lock is supposedly on, his APM drops to zero? Somebody said earlier his APM only dropped to zero like once in 7 games. Also I find the '10-15 second' camera locks people keep saying happened whilst he was allegedly peeking into FOW a bit redundant. Given all the features of these hacks why would anyone (a pro especially) feel the need to look into FOW for 10 seconds at a time? Surely they could just look at the rest of the UI production tabs the hack provides. Wouldn't spending 10 seconds at a time looking into FOW and hence being unable to do anything else at this time be counter productive? This + the debunking magic scan that a caster did in a YouTube vid should at least cause people to question whether he really is guilty.
That is one hack you heard about so all hacks work that way? Metalopolis map at 2:50 shows a camera lock while microing a SCV that couldn't get into a blocked base. My theory is autoscout hack while he was taking a sip of whatever beverage he enjoys but a lot of other people think he blocked the camera while checking stuff out and microed the SCV while accidentally looking at things he couldn't see thus we cant see what orders were given to that scv or why he turned around at that sign and headed back randomly seemingly as if he had his own AI. And SCGears again shows at neither time frame did he hit the hotkey to select 10298 until he panicked and said wait come back to my base.
You can analyze everything to death but it really just takes one unexplained event to prove hacking and I think this short 10 min game shows that in spades.
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On June 06 2012 10:53 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:50 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:45 IcedBacon wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 09:44 las91 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:40 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I know as of MLG arena qualifier he didnt hack because I cheesed him 2 games in a row and won. Considering this is a series not mentioned in the scope of this particular (213 page O.o) thread I don't really understand the point of your post sir. This isn't a trial, character witnesses aren't exactly necessary... Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Nerchio is hardly multiple. cArn and Attero are pretty biased since cArn has lived with him in the GOM house and they're friends and Attero was his former teammate and they're friends. Shouldn't you out the people who are accusing him too? I mean Mirhi is out for Spades blood by all accounts. A few other pros have lost matches against him in ladder and they just can't comprehend how in the world a mediocre player was able to beat them so it must be hacking.. ah well, we could go on with this fruitless discussion, the crux of the matter is in the accuser and so far there is no conclusive evidence of maphacking. period. You say CatZ and co's analysis was bad and biased yet the majority of pros who say he wasn't hacking are his friends. And the most important things from their analysis was not disproven. All it needs to come down to is why his mechanical play is so different in the series compared to the 50 other replays, with the FOW issues and whatnot. It's conclusive enough given his history and how that point still remains undebated.
AFAIK Nerchio isn't Spades friend.
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The following is a critical analysis of some additional games posted by QuanticIllusion in reference to the scandal previously discussed over the Lucifron vs Spades showmatch. I will be using the format laid out already by Bogeyman (thanks) as he has critically reviewed the previous showmatch replays in a very factual and objective fashion. This is intended simply to provide observable items to the reader in an attempt to examine and explain the events in a clear manner in order to help people understand why certain play is questionable and to allow people unable to view the replays to form an opinion based on unbiased information.
Here is the replay in question that will be examined: http://drop.sc/192066
It is Game 1 in a series of three. Further critical analysis will be provided of Game 2 and 3 as I have time.
Please review the replay for yourself. Don't take anyone's word for it. Fact check me. If you think I am stretching, guilty of bias, or simply just plain wrong about something, please inform me and I will thank you and edit accordingly. Here we go.
The following is a chart of how to rate a move or incident during the game. If the play is normal and solid, it would recieve a zero. If the replay contains visual, repeatable evidence of a hack program (ie clicking on buildings covered by fog of war, frequent looks through fog of war at key structures or army makeup) it would receive a 5. Everything else is in between, as defined here:
Rates of suspicion:
Class 1 - Could be co-incidence or just smart/prepared play
Class 2 - Rather odd
Class 3 - Seems fishy
Class 4 - Highly unlikely behavior
Class 5 - Clear proof
Map: MLG Cloud Kingdom (Game 1of3)
x:xx - Class 0 - Spades performs a very standard TvT opening. Nothing about this opening should lead us to believe that he is building specifically to counter something from Theognis. But Theognis has no observable early pressure coming out (banshee build, hellion drops, 111, etc). However Spades has chosen an appropriate build, and does not make any reactionary choices, as there is nothing to react to...either scouted or otherwise. This is a completely normal decision though, and we cannot draw any conclusions from this opening and lack of early reactionary or defensive measures.
3:11 - Class 1 - Spades chooses to add on a 2nd gas. This is not a suspicious move, and is not out of the ordinary in his normal repertoire of builds. The only thing is that Theognis has chosen a gasless fast expand build, which Spades has not scouted in the least. Now, with the common quick walls up front in TvT, it is understandable that choosing not to scout and choosing a build ahead of time based on map choice, opponent's habits on maps like this, and current metagame for larger maps says early expo, so this is very common and is not odd. This is why this could easily be written off as simply a build order choice and nothing more. It is reading too much into it to call it odd or reactionary based on the unscouted build of Theo. (A build which as it happens can be very susceptible to early pressure by double gas openings.)
4:07 - Class 1 - Theognis scouts that Spades has no expo. Spades continues down the 1base path despite the fact that Theognis knows that he has not yet expo'd.
6:15 - Class 1 - Spades still has zero scouting. He does not know if Theo has an expo, he has not scouted the front, he has not seen any defensive bunkers or what units he has. He has not scanned and knows nothing of unit comp or buildings. By now he has taken control of the forward watchtower. Spades stops scv production. He begins his moveout to mid with his first tank and 8 marines.
6:33 - Class 0 - Theognis scans the main of Spades. Spades shows an idle CC for 3/4 of the scan duration, then starts an additional scv. Theognis isn't looking when he starts his scv. Theognis drops safety turret and we can surmise is now pretty sure he's facing 1 base play.
7:00 - Class 1 - With 2 tanks and 10 marines, Spades moves out to the forward watchtower he controls with 1 marine.
7:50 - Class 1 - First medivac arrives, joins the force and Spades moves into the natural choke. With the medivac he gains the first glimpse of Theognis structure - a bunker in the choke. He begins to siege it. Mismicro causes him to lose his medivac.
9:00 - Class 0 - Spades takes his natural expansion behind the pressure. Bunker has been destroyed. Spades moves marines into range of Theo's natural min line.
9:34 - Class 0 - Spades destroys the natural CC of Theo using marines. he falls back to his tanks at the choke.
9:50 - Class 3 - Spades selects his siege tanks. For 2 seconds he sits with the screen 'locked in place' over top of them, very strange considering he has previously been moving the screen around when selecting offensive units/when moving them and looking around at where he is going to move. For these two seconds, he does not unsiege them, and he does not perform any other actions like selecting production or selecting marines. He simply sits with his camera over selected siege tanks and does not unsiege them. This is strangely one of the lowest points of apm in the game. Even stranger, the reason I rate this "FISHY" is the fact that after the temporary lapse in actions or camera movement, the camera seems to 'snap back' into action and move oddly, as if it were moving during the moment of being stationary and suddenly the camera view of the replay caught up with it again (as if it were being held in place then continued moving from a previously unseen movement.) Also strange is that the weird camera movement after the lapse in action swings down above the unseen Fog of War in Theo's base, where Theo's army is dancing around. The lack of action is odd, but still explainable by the following rationale: "He was thinking about something very deeply" "He had to scratch his nose" etc. But the camera movements after were just questionable.
Then he seems to wake up, make up his mind, and chooses to unsiege them at 9:52. It is important to note that during this time, Theo is moving his army back and forth inside his main base furtively, on a path toward the cliff above the tanks, then back again. Spades chooses a time, when he decides to unsiege that, coincidentally, happens to be when Theo's army is a safe distance away and does not have vision of any of Spades'.
9:55 - Class 4 - At 9:55, the unsiege animation finishes and the tanks move .5 onscreen inch to the left into the nat, before suddenly sieging again. The marines had vision of the ramp out of the main and saw it was clear, and the viking had vision of the edge of the cliff. It was safe to move into the Nat and siege in a good position there, there was no reason to resiege so quickly in such a seemingly useless position that was only a microscopic distance away from the previous position. But the sudden tank siege again at 9:58, after just the tiniest movement to the left, cannot be rationally explained. The most suspicious thing in this whole replay happened along with the sudden siege: at 9:56 the camera swings down to look at Theo's Fog-of-War-hidden base and army. It was just a split second look, but nonetheless very very obvious, and telling. If we were able to see through the FoW, we would see Spades looking directly at Theo's army moving up to the edge of the cliff, but still hidden to the view of the viking (the viking can only see about 2 blocks up the very tip of the cliff, it cant even see the missile turret that shot the medivac down earlier.) The resiege .5 seconds later has no rational explanation in my mind other than he saw the army moving up to the edge of the cliff THROUGH the fog of war. Just in the nic of time his tanks were resieged and all 3 were able to take huge shots on the entire ball that had just "randomly" walked into viking vision range at the edge of the cliff. Again, I can think of no plausible way to justify this other than pure luck and the freakiest bonjwa game sense, and that just doesn't sound plausible.
11:07 - Class 1 - Spades moves two tanks, leaving two sieged. He begins moving them toward the edge of the ramp. Theognis scans and sees this, and stims in hoping to catch them unsieged. Spades quickly sieges the tanks as the bio stims in, and they finish the siege animation in time to wreck all the bio of Theognis. The reason I have rated this as just good play and not very suspicious is because A) good terrans in TvT know that if you get caught unsieged when you are that close to your opponent's bio, you had better get sieged quick regardless of whether you see that he is stimming in on you or not and B) he did actually see the bio stimming in with viking vision the very instant he pressed siege, so this could easily be explained by just having good reaction time. This is just smart play in my opinion.
11:45 - GG
This concludes the analysis of Game 1. The play at 9:55 with the mirace siege is VERY suspect to say the least, but this game alone is not even remotely enough to definitively say anything. We must look at the evidence of the whole game, the whole series, how Spades plays in other series, and compare this to how his games look as compared to his ladder games. We must question if mechanics and basic game decision making change drastically in these questionable, random-lucky-coincidence laden tourney series as compared to the control group of his ladder games.
The reason we must analyze it in this way is because looking at one game alone is not definitive, and we are not able to prove anything definitely such as with a hack-detector, or with a VoD of the FPV stream of Spades. These tools don't exist for us. So we must do our best to determine whether the suspicious play over all these games adds up to being too suspicious to explain away with luck. We must also compare the sum total of this evidence with what we already know to be true about Spades: that he has been willing in the past to use different forms of cheating in competitive play.
Bear this in mind: most modern hacks are very subtle if the user is careful. And most modern hackers who play competitively go to extra precautions not to get caught, as they have alot more on the line with their reputation as competitors, sponsorships, prizes for winning, and their popularity in the community. The caution of modern hackers will make them nearly undetectable if we don't over-analyze illogical steps in their games and very strange coincidences. This is all we can use to judge. If there are enough of these, we must at some point cross the line from suspicion to condemnation.
MY OPINION:
I submit that that line has already been exceeded by the sheer number of inconsistincies and coincidences from a mid master leaguer that went to grandmaster rank 1 in a month. For you the line may be further. Please discuss where you think the line should be drawn further and why.
GAME 2 Analysis coming soon.
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On June 06 2012 10:58 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:47 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 10:44 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:11 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 09:44 las91 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:40 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I know as of MLG arena qualifier he didnt hack because I cheesed him 2 games in a row and won. Considering this is a series not mentioned in the scope of this particular (213 page O.o) thread I don't really understand the point of your post sir. This isn't a trial, character witnesses aren't exactly necessary... Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Name them. Nerchio and Attero come to mind. Haha, I've played Attero. No WAY he says this guy isn't hacking. Show me a quote. Also, where was the discrepency between ladder games and the play in his show match disproven? Would love to see how that is rationally explained, since there is only one possible explanation. Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
I actually don't seem him disprove even a single piece of evidence against him in this quote, but thank you for it.
The idea that if you didn't hack in one game, therefore you could never hack is simply idiotic. "Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do."
Sad, I thought Attero wasn't so blindly bias. If he is serious, he'll come back here and explain why the way he uses the minimap vs fog of war changes so much from the games where he's not hacking (cherry picked ladder games) vs the ones he is (showmatch, other people bringing up older replays)
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On June 06 2012 10:58 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:55 Sein wrote:On June 06 2012 10:50 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:45 IcedBacon wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 09:44 las91 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:40 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I know as of MLG arena qualifier he didnt hack because I cheesed him 2 games in a row and won. Considering this is a series not mentioned in the scope of this particular (213 page O.o) thread I don't really understand the point of your post sir. This isn't a trial, character witnesses aren't exactly necessary... Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Nerchio is hardly multiple. cArn and Attero are pretty biased since cArn has lived with him in the GOM house and they're friends and Attero was his former teammate and they're friends. Shouldn't you out the people who are accusing him too? I mean Mirhi is out for Spades blood by all accounts. A few other pros have lost matches against him in ladder and they just can't comprehend how in the world a mediocre player was able to beat them so it must be hacking.. ah well, we could go on with this fruitless discussion, the crux of the matter is in the accuser and so far there is no conclusive evidence of maphacking. period. Why is Mirhi out for Spades blood by all accounts? Look it up yourself
Give me a hint on where I could look it up? Should I be searching for "Spades" "Mirhi" on TL SC2 forums?
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On June 06 2012 10:51 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:27 skeptic916 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:07 Monochromatic wrote:
Why doesn't someone download the maphacks and see how they work so we can just get this whole thing cleared up. I think it would be productive if we had someone who was familiar with these hacks to a degree that they could point out certain definitive things in the replay that proves without a doubt that some tomfoolery happened. I hear a lot of people talking about camera lock, positioning insights that are unlikely and certain other potentially damning clues, but I am reluctant condemn him as a cheater without having a bit more knowledge of the means by which he potentially hacked and how they operate. I myself am unwilling to even go to a website that hosts this sort of thing, let alone install them and use them even for research into the matter. But maybe someone like the Zergthrowaway guy on reddit or someone who knows a few people who use SC2 hacks intimately could weigh in on the subject with a little more depth, despite their now nefarious rep in the community. The one part of this that really does stink to me is the apparent multiplicity of instances. Although they are few and far between enough to seem, on one level, purely circumstantial, the fact that this issues has come up numerous times with a single personality in our community does bother me a great deal. That compounded by more replays slowly trickling into light that confirm the darkest suspicions about Spades make for an all in all ruinous set of circumstances for him, innocent or not. I hope someone can figure out more surefire ways of detecting cheating and hacking as discussed in this thread. Firstly to protect innocent players who could be wrongly accused, but most importantly to protect the integrity of our game, scene and tournaments. people have been trying to figure out a surefire way to detect hacks for years, punkbuster is in a constant arms race with the hackers and are always one step behind. For instance back in BF2, punkbuster would use submitted screenshots to help detect hacks, my clan set up a feed of punkbuster ss's and we would all look thru as many as we could each day and submit any that showed someone hacking. punkbuster would then do the research and suddenly that hack was busted, but the moment people started receiving bans, the hack makers would just update the hack to be undetectable again and we would start the process over again and again and again. There was a very well known hack in BF2 that was basically paid for but the hack makers didn't sell it to you like that, you paid for "premium" forum access which just happened to be the only place to get the hack download (which you had to log in with ur forum account info to use to play, yes we did our research) and Punkbuster openly had an account on the site which they used to foil the hackers.... to no avail. Every time they cracked the new code, it got updated. It's stupid. This is an issue that will simply never go away. As for spades, I have a few things that bug me about his alleged hacking: 1) Why would you hack during a show match set up by your own team in the first place? Spades is supposedly a "good" hacker. Anyone with a brain knows that using a hack when your own team is setting up the match is a bone headed thing to do. 2) why would he stream so many games without using hacks and then all of a sudden use them in a show match? again, seems like a completely bone headed thing to do. 3) A good hacker knows how to keep a low profile, I spent years admining FPS servers and the good hackers took weeks and weeks to catch because they wouldn't be stupid and go 100-0 KDR every single game and make impossible sniper shots every few seconds. A good hacker plays clever, Spades isn't some kid who just discovered hacking and decided to abuse it to its full potential... he is a proven hacker from BW and would surely know about the screen lock feature and not use it. He's a good enough player that simply having a minimap hack would give him all the info he would need. I am no expert in SC2 or hacking SC2 but I was at finding them in BF2, punkbuster can chalk up over 1000 hack detections to me scouring thru screenshots and noticing the tiny things that gave it away. It just doesn't make sense to me that Spades would go from playing clean on ladder and streaming it all to hacking a show match and losing to boot. Maybe he hacked, maybe he didn't but no one has yet to show me something that is anything near what I would call concrete proof. One of the things on that Antiga game that catz reviewed was his movement around the watch tower, at one point he moves down and then he sees a hellion moving back up and around the other way and sends his troops back up, when catz was reviewing said replay he didn't seem to note that fact. I noticed it and thought, well if i saw that hellion going back the other way, I'd assume the rest of the army was goin that way too. I honestly don't know either way for sure and in any court of law, that makes him innocent. He doesn't have to prove his innocence, his accusers have to prove his guilt.
There are tons of tiny things that together becomes something very fishy, but what sets it on stone is his habits.
No one change his playstyle overnight. Any player has their mechanic habits(I don't know if this is the right word for it), like MKP's way of boxing or Polt's relaxed and low-apm play. Those aspects are completely unrelated to what BO you are using or which strategy you are facing, it your digital signature on SC2.
Don't you think really strange Spades changing it for Lucifron showmatch only?
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On June 06 2012 10:58 BalanceFx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:51 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 10:30 warshop wrote:On June 06 2012 10:27 skeptic916 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:07 Monochromatic wrote:
Why doesn't someone download the maphacks and see how they work so we can just get this whole thing cleared up. I think it would be productive if we had someone who was familiar with these hacks to a degree that they could point out certain definitive things in the replay that proves without a doubt that some tomfoolery happened. I hear a lot of people talking about camera lock, positioning insights that are unlikely and certain other potentially damning clues, but I am reluctant condemn him as a cheater without having a bit more knowledge of the means by which he potentially hacked and how they operate. I myself am unwilling to even go to a website that hosts this sort of thing, let alone install them and use them even for research into the matter. But maybe someone like the Zergthrowaway guy on reddit or someone who knows a few people who use SC2 hacks intimately could weigh in on the subject with a little more depth, despite their now nefarious rep in the community. The one part of this that really does stink to me is the apparent multiplicity of instances. Although they are few and far between enough to seem, on one level, purely circumstantial, the fact that this issues has come up numerous times with a single personality in our community does bother me a great deal. That compounded by more replays slowly trickling into light that confirm the darkest suspicions about Spades make for an all in all ruinous set of circumstances for him, innocent or not. I hope someone can figure out more surefire ways of detecting cheating and hacking as discussed in this thread. Firstly to protect innocent players who could be wrongly accused, but most importantly to protect the integrity of our game, scene and tournaments. I'll quote myself. See the description of both Camera lock and Watch player camera. On June 06 2012 09:50 warshop wrote:An exhaustive list of features of a paid maphack : + Show Spoiler +Features:
Warden Protection
Version checker
Configurable hotkeys
3-state Maphack
-> Show units on mainmap & minimap
-> Show invisible/burrowed units
-> Show hallucinated units
-> Show Zerg creep
-> Hear sounds under fog of war
-> Enable selections under fog of war (client-sided)
-> View what your enemy is training/researching or the contents of selected
-> Graphical bugs fixed
Camera Lock
Show player selections
Show player clicks
Enable observer panel
-> Set to Production tab when game starts
-> Filter out local player
-> Filter out allied players
-> Filter out unwanted units and researches
-> Apply filtering for units and researches after X game seconds
-> Allow clicks through Production and Units tab information
Enable color/race icon
Watch player camera
Auto-start
-> Auto-mine minerals
-> Auto-create 1 worker
-> Auto-rally main building to local mineral patch
Auto-larva
-> Auto-group queens
Auto-mule
Auto-group buildings
Award achievements
Tac nuke strike alert
Nydus worm alert
Unit alert
Camera zoom out
Instant win against A.I. Also, here's a description of the interesting features : Camera lockLock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it on by accident. Watch player cameraWatch the camera movement of any player in real time, it also works like camera lock so everything is client-sided and not saved into the replay. It says if camera lock is turned on and you try to move units it cancels the camera lock as a fail safe. Which means that whilst camera lock is on you shouldn't be able to issue commands to units. Not are what other commands you are unable to issue without deactivating camera lock, but shouldn't it mean his whilst the camera lock is supposedly on, his APM drops to zero? Somebody said earlier his APM only dropped to zero like once in 7 games. Also I find the '10-15 second' camera locks people keep saying happened whilst he was allegedly peeking into FOW a bit redundant. Given all the features of these hacks why would anyone (a pro especially) feel the need to look into FOW for 10 seconds at a time? Surely they could just look at the rest of the UI production tabs the hack provides. Wouldn't spending 10 seconds at a time looking into FOW and hence being unable to do anything else at this time be counter productive? This + the debunking magic scan that a caster did in a YouTube vid should at least cause people to question whether he really is guilty. That is one hack you heard about so all hacks work that way? Metalopolis map at 2:50 shows a camera lock while microing a SCV that couldn't get into a blocked base. My theory is autoscout hack while he was taking a sip of whatever beverage he enjoys but a lot of other people think he blocked the camera while checking stuff out and microed the SCV while accidentally looking at things he couldn't see thus we cant see what orders were given to that scv or why he turned around at that sign and headed back randomly seemingly as if he had his own AI. And SCGears again shows at neither time frame did he hit the hotkey to select 10298 until he panicked and said wait come back to my base. You can analyze everything to death but it really just takes one unexplained event to prove hacking and I think this short 10 min game shows that in spades.
Um, no, it doesn't take one unexplained event to prove hacking. You could go through replays of any pro and I can almost guarantee you there will be at least one unexplained event. You don't 'prove' hacking through one unexplained event, at best you can determine with reasonable confidence that someone is hacking with many unexplained events.
And I didn't say all hacks work that way, but this seems to be the main hack that everyone is referring to. Perhaps if you can go find the hack that works the way you say it does it will provide your statement more credibility.
I really can't get over this 'one unexplained event to prove someone is hacking'. This guys career is on the line and you think all it takes is one unexplained event to ruin it? Absolutely disgusting attitude my friend.
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On June 06 2012 11:02 JustTray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:58 hinnolinn wrote:On June 06 2012 10:47 JustTray wrote:On June 06 2012 10:44 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:11 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:08 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 10:05 Tewks44 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:02 s4life wrote:On June 06 2012 09:44 las91 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:40 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I know as of MLG arena qualifier he didnt hack because I cheesed him 2 games in a row and won. Considering this is a series not mentioned in the scope of this particular (213 page O.o) thread I don't really understand the point of your post sir. This isn't a trial, character witnesses aren't exactly necessary... Character witnesses is all what the accusers have for evidence. Nothing conclusive has come out of all the replays so far. except for the multiple expert opinions that say he was hacking based on the replays. Which counters the multiple expert opinions which stated he didn't seem to have hacked.. Name them. Nerchio and Attero come to mind. Haha, I've played Attero. No WAY he says this guy isn't hacking. Show me a quote. Also, where was the discrepency between ladder games and the play in his show match disproven? Would love to see how that is rationally explained, since there is only one possible explanation. On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best. I actually don't seem him disprove even a single piece of evidence against him in this quote, but thank you for it. The idea that if you didn't hack in one game, therefore you could never hack is simply idiotic. "Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do." Sad, I thought Attero wasn't so blindly bias. If he is serious, he'll come back here and explain why the way he uses the minimap vs fog of war changes so much from the games where he's not hacking (cherry picked ladder games) vs the ones he is (showmatch, other people bringing up older replays)
They aren't cherry picked, they are the last 100 games he played on ladder. God, I don't know or really care if hes innocent but people need to spot making shit up in this thread.
Edit 2: I also honestly don't think he would be dumb enough to use autoscout hack. Why would he take additional risk of getting caught by using one when it won't add anything to his play? He is a good enough player to scout efficiently himself.
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On June 06 2012 10:43 dumrednek wrote:
No one has responded to the fact that spades' game mechanics changed during the series with lucifron.
Well one explanation is there is a difference between relatively meaningless ladder games against random people and a showmatch against a particular opponent you have prepared for. Last night I linked a couple of MLG replays where players do things like absolutely zero scouting - not even one scan of the opponent - the entire game.
If you have a plan and you get to stick to it you'll play different than you would in a game where you don't have a good guess on what to expect.
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EPT
