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Acrofales
Spain17856 Posts
I have no time to finish my analysis. I like willz's defense, but have not read yomi's stuff yet. I am sticking with this afternoon's vote because tipsy+rushed makes for a bad voteswitch. If willz dies and he's town the so be it, I'll deal with the flak tomorrow. Switching now is just too much of a risk to take. Fridays are bad days for day endings. | ||
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yomi
United States773 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 14 2012 03:06 KharadBanar wrote: About the bus: I don't have 100% scum reads on both you and Dittert. The fact that you're my strongest reads doesn't mean there is not actually a higher possibility of only one of you being scum, where this isn't a bus but either a scum member accusing a townie or a townie being right in his speculation. I just see a high possibility of there being a scum between the two of you. If you manage to explain your motivations behind the things Acrofales pointed out about you, I'd probably be willing to take my vote off you, because yomi and HiroPro then seem more scummy to me at this point, so please go ahead. Can you be more specific about what you want me to explain? Acrofales case is really long and I don't know what exactly you're looking for. I'd like to be as transparent as I can even if I still die, because I know this will help town. Please respond with what you wish to know and I will answer as best I can. I can already say that I have not played nearly as well as I thought, and I agree with my hypocrisy in calling for transparency yet holding onto my own opinions. Other than that part of his post, I was overly defensive against Dittert because he wouldn't leave me alone, that got me angry and asking him why he keeps insisting that I'm Mafia without reinforcing his case when I asked him what I have done to draw his suspicions. Wouldn't you be annoyed at someone if they were saying you were calling for their mis-lynch when I did nothing of the sort, and that was the basis of his original argument and the one he just used? That is a flat out lie, yet he seems to not realize it himself, then he goes on about how his RL is important and he has no time to play this game as much as others. Fine, RL obviously takes precedence, but that means in his limited time playing Mafia, he won't switch off accusing me constantly, he won't look at anyone else, but I can't call him out on it because he doesn't have enough time, that's part of why I was angry as well. | ||
imallinson
United Kingdom3482 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
That's 3 guaranteed, and it's probably not worth it to change the vote now. The best move for town is to confirm my lynch and flip and see who voted for me and while, along with getting my opinion on ANYTHING or ANYONE before I die since I won't be able to speak again after tonight. | ||
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imallinson
United Kingdom3482 Posts
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BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
On April 14 2012 01:47 willz22912 wrote: My case against BroodKingEXE: I advise everyone to in addition to this case where I point out his most glaring scumminess, take a look at his filter as a whole and see how much contribution he's really done. If you are accusing me of contributing without contributing, then what has he been doing? 1. Initially is suspicious of Dittert here, one of the top targets considering his RNG proposal and how hard it was shut down by myself and ArcticFox: 2. Calls for a consolidation of the vote here to narrow down the likely suspects for a lynch so that Mafia have a easier time to hide behind the bandwagon: 3. Next, he follows up on his "suspicions" of Dittert by posting this: 4. I immediately call BroodKingEXE out for his vote on Dittert and here is his response: Notice that his reasoning for Dittert is very flimsy, he's willing to change his vote at anytime, but feels like picking on the easiest target with the most suspicion and gives little to no weight to his case. Then take a look at the part I highlighted in red, here he starts arguing against transparency and having town not release scumlists. How is that not anti-town behavior? Releasing scumlists helps us hunt scum, it's as simple as that, information not shared is information not known. Very scummy in my mind. 5. BroodKingEXE lets Dittert off the hook with 1 post! Here: So basically, the whole vote on Dittert was pointless, one post (not even saying what parts of it was "good information") lets him take off the vote? How strong are BroodKingEXE's convictions, how readily is he willing to drop his vote and change it to the most easiest target, currently myself? He calls out Yomi here: Did BroodkingExe in your minds declare a pressure vote, or make a decent case against Dittert? No? Then why is he calling out Yomi for his own hypocrisy? 6. When I defend myself against Dittert's accusation, and tell him to stop because he's not helping. I was admittedly angry because of how relentless he had become in his tunneling of me and took it out on Dittert. BroodkingEXE however, jumps in with this: He says there is no wasted discussion, and every post is important, but he doesn't contribute anything of value except for commenting on my posts against Dittert. But note the red part I highlighted here, What is that sentence supposed to mean? How does he know who is mafia and who is town, and whose opinion is important, does he have the inside knowledge of who's who that only a Mafia would have at this point? You decide. 7. He continues to post comments about my "discussion" with Dittert: I stated that I believed Dittert to be a newbie town who is tunneling me because of a misguided notion that I was trying to mis-lynch him (when did I ever do this, where in the thread did I call on others to vote for Dittert?) Even if I was defending Dittert he doesn't owe me anything, what cause would I have for defending him other than believing he was town, and that town should defend other town? What possible reason could I have as Mafia to defend Dittert? Also note the red part I highlighted again, What is this statement mean as well? How are we supposed to prove the alignment of one another, how am I supposed to change Dittert's opinion of me if he continues to think I am Mafia when I am not? 8. I call BroodKingEXE out on his comments about my posts, and whether or not he has enough spine to actually adhere to a stance: His response is this: So for all the posts he's made about me, he doesn't see anything wrong with any of my other posts, but currently thinks Yomi is still more suspicious than me. He was not willing to go out on his own and make a case against me supporting Dittert's accusations, he was willing to just post fluff and seem like he's contributing. 9 Finally, his last post and the vote he makes on me: So now when 4 other people are against me and my lynch is all but assured, he jumps in at the last moment with this? This is plurality vote, 4 should have been enough already, but 5 is all but pointless. Even if you don't change your vote on me, please look at BroodKingEXE for bandwagoning on my lynch with little to no support when I flip town. Posting my rebuttal of all of your accusations now. My Response 1. I saw dittert acting with questionable evidence, so I voted for him. Yomi was pointing baseless accusations, but I wanted him to respond so I put my vote on dittert, since he was my main suspect. 2. This point is irrelevant I explained that the Mafia have more voting power if the vote is scattershot. Your point is as valid as mine the Mafia could do either, I just think it would be easier to see a bandwagoner than if the whole town voted scattershot. 3. Reiteration 4. Scumlists are bad in cases, if the Mafia knows what everyone is thinking they can guide the conversation away to a suspected (but innocence. Scumlists are often too brief to put in a lot of hard evidence, so why not post your top scum? We can only lynch one person at a time anyway. 5. His reasoning in this post was valid to me. No one has yet to prove otherwise. I think it was AFox that asked me to post my reasoning and I did. Dittert was a pressure vote to me your quote in 4 shows that, I said "My vote is by no means confirmed by his inactivity". I felt at the time dittert voting for you was quite flimsy, but he continued to reinforce his case in the post that convinced me he wasn't scum. 6. The "except mafia" was put by me to imply that I didn't think mafia's opinions didn't matter. It wouldn't have been better if others read into it and thought I supported the opinions of Mafia members. 7. The problem I am having with this statement is that that you were arguing that since you were defending dittert he shouldn't be attacking you. You never actively took apart dittert's statement to clear your name. If you say his evidence is bad don't blame his newbie status, blame his reasoning 8. You weren't answering any of my questions, so I chose to wait until the morning to make a desicion. This is exactly what you did. You chose to wait until the morning to look for evidence against me, I chose to wait to go after you. 9. Reiteration | ||
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
>Can you be more specific about what you want me to explain? Acrofales case is really long and I don't know what exactly you're looking for. I specifically found the first part (I. The Non-Contribution) to be very damning, where he points out that you accused people of picking easy targets without explanation and then picked easy targets without explanation. And please give another explanation than "I played badly" because that's also truthful if you actually are scum failing to cover up your laziness. Also, the OMGUS on BroodKing that Acrofales elaborated upon needs some explanation, because it looks as if you're Mafia and didn't like that he just pointed out your game plan. >I was overly defensive against Dittert because he wouldn't leave me alone, that got me angry and asking him why he keeps insisting that I'm Mafia without reinforcing his case when I asked him what I have done to draw his suspicions. This is actually quite believable to me. I can understand people getting emotional when they are accused of something and don't know what exactly to respond to. If you can explain yourself, I am willing to accept your defense and switch my vote probably to HiroPro because he has been lurking the whole time, posting some fluff in between with even less content than my posts in my lurkier period. Maybe if he gathers more than 3 votes you'll live, if you're really a townie don't pull an IdrA and prematurely gg. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
I'm obviously going to be willing to stay alive, but who could I support to lynch in my place without looking desperate? The two votes not in yet are the lurkers. ArcticFox thinks Yomi is still Mafia, I personally disagree with this, I won't support that lynch. imallinson, you think trumpetarn is a valid lynch, I think he's a newb town still, but he is also the most inactive and lurker of us all and hardly a benefit to town. I would be willing to switch my vote to him, but that still wouldn't get him lynched over me, and would reek of desperation. No I'm content with my fate, just going to try and be as useful to town as I can and then hopefully see you guys win in the end. | ||
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
I think you still look pretty scummy after Acrofales' post, but if you manage to explain that behaviour I'm willing to vote someone else. If you are "content with your fate" of getting lynched, I view that as an admission to not being able to properly explain yourself, and it makes you feel scummier. Just putting that thought process out there. | ||
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BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
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BroodKingEXE
United States829 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Okay, I accused people of picking easy targets at the time because the only people under suspicion were: Dittert for his RNG proposal, and ArcticFox by Xatalos. I defended both of these people because of the weak reasoning used in attacking them. I did not really pick easy targets without explanation, if you look through my filter earlier in the game, I posted many questions to many of the lurkers and told them to post their top town/scum reads in order for them to be more active. I was waiting to see how they would respond, and I was keeping the time difference in mind(since we have a lot of EU folks) in order to give them enough time to post. The distinction here is that I never called out anyone for suspicious behavior other than lurking. I just told them to post, how is that picking easy targets without explanation? I am a hypocrite about transparency, but don't accuse me of calling suspicions on anyone. The only suspicions I posted were about imallinson's readiness to support Xatalos (which Xatalos even commented on was worth looking at) because I couldn't get a firm read on anyone that early into the game. I took a look at BroodKingEXE's filter midway through the day and decided that he wasn't being firm enough in his stances and that sounded scummy to me. Later that night, myself Dittert and BroodKingEXE were the only ones posting and BroodKingEXE continued to post comments about me without any opinion on them. My case against BroodKingEXE shouldn't be considered OMGUS, he has been flaky multiple times without any concrete opinion on anything, he always follows the opinions of others. He claims in his defense of my case that he just waited to post to make a decision in the morning, conveniently after Acrofales makes his case and everyone voted for me? He just said the night before that he did not find any other post I made suspicious, why not at least say I have some suspicions of you but I'll wait till I hear more? He made a 180 in opinion and you guys are letting him get away with it, the only mistake I made was waiting too long on my opinions and not calling him out earlier. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 14 2012 03:43 KharadBanar wrote: willz: This is not what I meant when I said "If you're really a townie don't gg yet" >_> I think you still look pretty scummy after Acrofales' post, but if you manage to explain that behaviour I'm willing to vote someone else. If you are "content with your fate" of getting lynched, I view that as an admission to not being able to properly explain yourself, and it makes you feel scummier. Just putting that thought process out there. You need to look at the math I already posted. I am dead by voting, but that doesn't mean I'm not posting. My alignment flip will show the town that I really was green all along, and that the people pushing my case made a mistake. I'm not going to convince anyone I'm not Mafia until then, but I know I have been right all along. Don't say that I'm content with my fate and that is an admission to not being able to explain myself. I already stated why I'm already dead, I could just shut up entirely and not contribute but I'm not doing that am I? Acrofales, Dittert, BroodKingEXE are three votes that won't switch for various reasons, that means I won't be able to save myself even if I wanted to, so I'm not even going to try and waste time trying to change the vote, and I'm trying to be as productive as I can until I get lynched. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On April 14 2012 03:01 yomi wrote: My case against Dittert It all starts with this bizarre proposal This is sort of humorous but I think it is a leveling play. I think he saw a strategy that DIDN’T work in other games, and wanted to employ it here. Believing it would again not work. Now Dittert starts really posting and seems like a noob but really is just playing dumb. It doesn’t scream scum because he, like many others, is pointing out that a bad strategy is bad. Why does Dittert keep pushing us to employ bizarre tactics? Because if people use their intuition they will correctly land on him as a mafia player. He is saying that all lynches have risk but lynching you is less risky as our worst case scenario is lynching a bad player. Him accusing willz who I am still the most confident in only raises my suspicion further. Derp? I don’t know how you read my post as implying an order of suspicion. Playing dumb again and trying to redirect. The mafia already know who their teammates are and you know this. There are no neutrals. Playing dumb to get out of an accusation. Typical dittert. Contrast these statements: Willz is ONE OF the first to make a suspicious list. Unfortunately I’m on it, but still. Dittert is a ridiculous player that puts words in people’s mouths and posts a lot of nonsensical and stupid things. A lot of people had him pegged as noob town and I almost swung over to that belief but I just don’t buy it anymore. I thought he was mafia before and I still think he is. I’m staying on dittert and I think you guys need to reconsider willz. I wasn't sure about voting for yomi over Willz before this post, but now I am. There are several things about yomi that make me very suspicious of him: A) He has been lurking extremely hard and contributing nothing until this moment. Right as Willz starts defending himself, yomi suddenly appears and makes a case against Dittert to improve his filter while avoiding any real attention with this Willz debate going on. Is this a coincidence? It MIGHT be, but I'm leaning on this being a purposeful play. Yesterday he said he would start contributing for real today, but all I see is this one post and then he's already going away until deadline. B) yomi doesn't try to defend Willz or sway the vote away from him, but he says some empty one-liners like "if I were you I'd reconsider lynching Willz", "I have the most confidence in Willz as town", stuff like that. To me, this looks like pure Mafia play. He knows Willz is town, so he leaves these remarks on his post history to look better later on. When Willz inevitably flips town, he can be "safe" tomorrow by claiming he knew Willz was innocent all along and vote for somebody who voted for Willz. Easy offence and defence in one tactic! C) His case on Dittert is pretty lackluster and, in my opinion, only a cover for avoiding attention for tomorrow. Dittert has been talked about to death already and yomi's case against him doesn't really bring anything new to the table. Still, he's a safe target for his noobie errors earlier and rather stubborn tunneling on Willz (which is not necessarily a Mafia tell IMO, because Mafia don't want to be the figureheads of mislynches). I think most share the opinion that Dittert is a noob townie who doesn't quite realize what he's doing. Focusing on him now isn't very productive in my eyes, especially since yomi merely repeats earlier accusations against him (plus some stuff about Willz's innocence only to improve his own credibility for tomorrow). I'm pretty confident about yomi being Mafia - reconsider voting for him after reading this post, Willz. If you voted for him, it would be 3 for yomi and 4 for you. I still see it as somehow possible to lynch yomi instead of you and I think it's the better solution. Lynching you isn't too bad either, since you had some pretty suspicious stuff (or if you flip town, your words will be noted tomorrow with more importance and we can study this bandwagon more closely) but I'm much more confident in lynching yomi than you right now. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
##Unvote ##Vote: yomi | ||
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
##Unvote As I explained earlier, I am missing contribution by HiroPro, and I said earlier I would vote him for that. I stand by my word, so: ##Vote: HiroPro Anyone else with a vote on willz at this time please reconsider, taking into account what he said on the last pages. | ||
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vonKlaust
Sweden158 Posts
Right now I'm really unsure about all this. I think Willz is holding up pretty good and he seems sincere. I must reread Willz' case on Brood, Willz defence and Broods defence and try to formulate my thoughts. I'm semi-bizzi tonight, so I need to know how much time I've got. | ||
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 14 2012 03:43 BroodKingEXE wrote: @dittert Even if you are dead, a townie would look for scum. If you really are a townie build a case against someone else. You've been asking questions all game, why not use the errors you found when you asked those to guide your suspicions. Would building a case against someone else convince you to not vote me? Then why should I bother building another case when I believe you're really Mafia? I've already stated my suspicions are on HiroPro (mostly for lurking), imallinson (for readily following Xatalos, although he has rebutted this, and I'm not so sure of this) and KharadBanar, who I feel is under-performing considering how he played in Newbie VI. His explanation for this is that he needs time to ramp up and his D1 isn't very good. Yomi: I feel he was overly defensive, a trait that newbie town usually display (he also posted this was his first game as well) He thinks Dittert is still Mafia, which I don't agree with, but that doesn't make him Mafia in my eyes. Still newbie town to me. Dittert: I feel he is going to be unhappy with himself when I flip green, but hopefully the town won't lynch him in response. He tunneled me and he played poorly as town, but that still means he's town in my mind. Xatalos: I feel the most town vibe from him for his willingness to at least start discussion with his case on ArcticFox, but he needs to step up his game since he has experience from GoT Acrofales: Also played in GoT Mafia, probably one of the more experienced newbs, have a good town vibe about him, his case against me is not without cause, and has good logic in it. I cannot blame him for reaching his conclusions because it was my own mistakes he pointed out. vonKlaust: Newbie town, pretty indecisive but without malicious intent, needs to be more assertive and stand by his opinions. Probably town in my eyes. Trumpetarn: Lurking the most out of anyone, probably newbie town with the way he entered the conversation and how he presented himself. Anything else I need to post? | ||
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