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[I] Proper Mineral Placement - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Flopjack
Profile Joined July 2009
United States51 Posts
November 15 2012 00:20 GMT
#21
^I agree, which is why I made a thread about having the occasional tournament/event where maps are not seen until the loading screen, going fairly all out on what you could find in the map; to test their adaptability rather than memorization, so to speak.
Kuato
Profile Joined November 2011
United States5 Posts
November 28 2012 18:32 GMT
#22
This is really great. I just started playing with the map editor. Thank you.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
November 28 2012 21:00 GMT
#23
On November 13 2012 17:36 moskonia wrote:
Can any "pro" map maker confirm those to be the standard mineral placement?

Eh, they aren't exactly standard, but standard is an odd thing to be thinking about when it comes to minerals. Most of the common mineral layouts can be found in Blizzard maps, but Korean mapmakers tend to use rather unique mineral layouts, Daybreak is a prime example of this. Back when I was a newb, I just wanted my mineral lines to be shaped properly, and have a similar overall look, which I suppose these do. There is some room for personal style in mineral placement, but it's an odd place to look for it.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Drake Merrwin
Profile Joined July 2012
Canada130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-29 05:15:38
November 29 2012 05:12 GMT
#24
I've accually done a lot of testing on what's best.
- Close minerals have a max of 2 workers to saturate fully and far take 3. This is important to note because standard base normally has 2 close 6 far or 4 close 4 far. Some times, like Ohana's main, 3 close.
- Vertically aligned minerals should have a space of at least 1 block. If they don't it can be easy for players to miss click.
- Gas cannot be further than 2 blocks past the town hall. This also helps with building placement.

It's easy to see how you can rework this to function the same from all angles.

Standard 4 close 4 far
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Standard 2 close 6 far
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Buildings (applies to Zerg buildings as well)
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
November 30 2012 00:06 GMT
#25
I thought it was a no-no to put geysers directly next to a min patch?
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
iamcaustic
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1509 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-30 00:26:33
November 30 2012 00:12 GMT
#26
On November 30 2012 09:06 TheFish7 wrote:
I thought it was a no-no to put geysers directly next to a min patch?

It is. Take those bottom three mineral patches in that first example, and shift them left 1 unit.

EDIT: Okay, so since everyone keeps messing up the basic, standard mineral placements, here you are:

[image loading]

This is as standard as you can get. Cardinal and 45 degree mineral lines, one geyser on either side. If you're a new mapmaker and aren't comfortable doing non-standard things like having 2 geysers on one side or unique resource placement, just use this image for reference and you should be good to go.
Twitter: @iamcaustic
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
December 11 2012 18:25 GMT
#27
This should be the standard for 45s, shouldn't it?

[image loading]

It's got better positional balance (both geysers are at the same position relative to the main building,) and on that other one it might take 4 workers to mine fully in some positions.
all's fair in love and melodies
iamcaustic
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1509 Posts
December 11 2012 18:59 GMT
#28
On December 12 2012 03:25 Gfire wrote:
This should be the standard for 45s, shouldn't it?

[image loading]

It's got better positional balance (both geysers are at the same position relative to the main building,) and on that other one it might take 4 workers to mine fully in some positions.

This way works great as well; just a minor shift of a couple of the top minerals compared to my example (in the post above Gfire's) to allow units another space to pass through the mineral field. Geyser locations are identical. New mapmakers should definitely use either one of these examples for making 45 degree mineral lines -- NOT what's posted in the OP.
Twitter: @iamcaustic
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
December 11 2012 19:27 GMT
#29
Oh you're right, those ones you posted have the same geyser spots. Some of the ones in the OP are pretty messed up, though.
all's fair in love and melodies
ScorpSCII
Profile Joined April 2012
Denmark499 Posts
December 11 2012 20:49 GMT
#30
Wouldn't a symmetric mineral placement work the best?

[image loading]
Mapmaker | Author of Atlas, Rao Mesa & Paralda
Monochromatic
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
United States1000 Posts
December 11 2012 21:58 GMT
#31
On December 12 2012 03:59 iamcaustic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2012 03:25 Gfire wrote:
This should be the standard for 45s, shouldn't it?

[image loading]

It's got better positional balance (both geysers are at the same position relative to the main building,) and on that other one it might take 4 workers to mine fully in some positions.

This way works great as well; just a minor shift of a couple of the top minerals compared to my example (in the post above Gfire's) to allow units another space to pass through the mineral field. Geyser locations are identical. New mapmakers should definitely use either one of these examples for making 45 degree mineral lines -- NOT what's posted in the OP.


What you posted is in the OP for a 45 degree one.

I should probably label them, as I have 2 different ways to make 45 degree bases. One of them was from Bel'Shir Vestige, which was the newest map at the time.

Also, I'd like to know which ones are messed up, so I could fix them in the OP.

Thanks for correcting my mistakes, though.
MC: "Guys I need your support! iam poor make me nerd baller" __________________________________________RIP Violet
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
December 11 2012 22:37 GMT
#32
On November 12 2012 09:03 TheFish7 wrote:
The last one under "Standard" has one patch behind 2?

imo should look like this

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


I would also include the configurations from Cloud Kingdom's main, and 3rd base. I am fond of those configurations (lol)

Also, the first one can also look like this
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


this is the ohana formation
SC2 Mapmaker
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
December 11 2012 22:37 GMT
#33
I think over all we should encourage new mineral formation styles. As long as they yield the same results.
SC2 Mapmaker
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
December 11 2012 22:51 GMT
#34
On November 12 2012 08:52 Timetwister22 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 08:08 AbideWithMe wrote:
Just a general question of somebody who has no idea about map making. Would it be a problem to make a mineral line with every mineral patch equally far away from the CC location?
This would make early double worker stacking and such obsolete. What is the downside of this? Why does nobody do it? It could also be used to get rid of the "mule wasting minerals" problem.


Mineral lines will take up way too much space, making for some very awkward base proportions. Also, making mineral stacking obsolete is a bad thing imo.

Mineral stacking will always apply because there will always be 1 or 2 patches centered closest to the face of the CC, which are optimal. The closest you could place mineral patches is probably this (below) which is as compact if not more so than typical mineral patch placements.

[image loading]

Or maybe this.

[image loading]

In any case it's better (or standard at least) to have 2-3 patches that are 4 squares away instead of 3 squares away, which causes the base to require 2-3 more workers for full saturation and lets high APM players eek out a slim mineral advantage with worker micro in the early game.

Nice thread, good basic resource. Now we need a thread about advanced mineral placements.... :O
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
iamcaustic
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1509 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-11 22:56:30
December 11 2012 22:51 GMT
#35
On December 12 2012 05:49 ScorpSCII wrote:
Wouldn't a symmetric mineral placement work the best?

[image loading]

That type of mineral placement puts 4 mineral fields at 4 units distance, whereas the standard is 2 mineral fields at 4 units distance. Basically means income is gonna be a bit slower than is standard and puts a greater emphasis on forcing workers to mine from closer patches.

---------------------


On December 12 2012 06:58 Monochromatic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2012 03:59 iamcaustic wrote:
On December 12 2012 03:25 Gfire wrote:
This should be the standard for 45s, shouldn't it?

[image loading]

It's got better positional balance (both geysers are at the same position relative to the main building,) and on that other one it might take 4 workers to mine fully in some positions.

This way works great as well; just a minor shift of a couple of the top minerals compared to my example (in the post above Gfire's) to allow units another space to pass through the mineral field. Geyser locations are identical. New mapmakers should definitely use either one of these examples for making 45 degree mineral lines -- NOT what's posted in the OP.


What you posted is in the OP for a 45 degree one.

I should probably label them, as I have 2 different ways to make 45 degree bases. One of them was from Bel'Shir Vestige, which was the newest map at the time.

Also, I'd like to know which ones are messed up, so I could fix them in the OP.

Thanks for correcting my mistakes, though.

The reason I don't recommend the OP is because there are a number of non-standard placements masquerading as standard. While you do have the placement that Gfire posted in there, it's buried in with a bunch of weird ones, making it overly confusing for new mapmakers.
Twitter: @iamcaustic
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-11 23:15:49
December 11 2012 23:15 GMT
#36
On December 12 2012 07:51 iamcaustic wrote:
The reason I don't recommend the OP is because there are a number of non-standard placements masquerading as standard. While you do have the placement that Gfire posted in there, it's buried in with a bunch of weird ones, making it overly confusing for new mapmakers.


It might be best just to use caustic's picture with the 8 basic directions as the first image. I think it's good to have examples with geysers on one side and other options that are centered on NNW instead of N or NW, or whathaveyou. The important thing is that it shows examples of mineral placements that have the correct proportion of close/far patches and a few holes between the minerals.

It doesn't really matter that much what the minerals look like as long as it's symmetric across both sides or all 4 sides of the map, and it's a small issue for a map to have.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Daumen
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany1073 Posts
December 12 2012 00:32 GMT
#37
Is it right that in the last picture of "Standard" the Top Minerals are 3 Squares far away from the Main Building and the lower Minerals are 4 Squares away? :O
President of the ReaL Fan Club.
iamcaustic
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1509 Posts
December 12 2012 04:22 GMT
#38
On December 12 2012 09:32 Daumen wrote:
Is it right that in the last picture of "Standard" the Top Minerals are 3 Squares far away from the Main Building and the lower Minerals are 4 Squares away? :O

No, it is not. Please refer to this post or this post for standard 45-degree mineral placement.
Twitter: @iamcaustic
thenexusp
Profile Joined May 2009
United States3721 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-12 05:10:01
December 12 2012 05:09 GMT
#39
On December 12 2012 07:51 EatThePath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 08:52 Timetwister22 wrote:
On November 12 2012 08:08 AbideWithMe wrote:
Just a general question of somebody who has no idea about map making. Would it be a problem to make a mineral line with every mineral patch equally far away from the CC location?
This would make early double worker stacking and such obsolete. What is the downside of this? Why does nobody do it? It could also be used to get rid of the "mule wasting minerals" problem.


Mineral lines will take up way too much space, making for some very awkward base proportions. Also, making mineral stacking obsolete is a bad thing imo.

Mineral stacking will always apply because there will always be 1 or 2 patches centered closest to the face of the CC, which are optimal. The closest you could place mineral patches is probably this (below) which is as compact if not more so than typical mineral patch placements.

[image loading]

Or maybe this.

[image loading]

In any case it's better (or standard at least) to have 2-3 patches that are 4 squares away instead of 3 squares away, which causes the base to require 2-3 more workers for full saturation and lets high APM players eek out a slim mineral advantage with worker micro in the early game.

Nice thread, good basic resource. Now we need a thread about advanced mineral placements.... :O

another concern is aesthetics. Those mineral placements simply don't look as good or "natural" as the standard ones.
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-12 05:42:38
December 12 2012 05:42 GMT
#40
On December 12 2012 14:09 thenexusp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2012 07:51 EatThePath wrote:
On November 12 2012 08:52 Timetwister22 wrote:
On November 12 2012 08:08 AbideWithMe wrote:
Just a general question of somebody who has no idea about map making. Would it be a problem to make a mineral line with every mineral patch equally far away from the CC location?
This would make early double worker stacking and such obsolete. What is the downside of this? Why does nobody do it? It could also be used to get rid of the "mule wasting minerals" problem.


Mineral lines will take up way too much space, making for some very awkward base proportions. Also, making mineral stacking obsolete is a bad thing imo.

Mineral stacking will always apply because there will always be 1 or 2 patches centered closest to the face of the CC, which are optimal. The closest you could place mineral patches is probably this (below) which is as compact if not more so than typical mineral patch placements.

[image loading]

Or maybe this.

[image loading]

In any case it's better (or standard at least) to have 2-3 patches that are 4 squares away instead of 3 squares away, which causes the base to require 2-3 more workers for full saturation and lets high APM players eek out a slim mineral advantage with worker micro in the early game.

Nice thread, good basic resource. Now we need a thread about advanced mineral placements.... :O

another concern is aesthetics. Those mineral placements simply don't look as good or "natural" as the standard ones.

Yeah definitely. I could see some special aesthetic settings like an industrial/science facility with squared up minerals and gas platforms, but everyone is used to staggered arc.

btw does anyone else spend way too much timing choosing which mineral model to use for each particular patch? ><
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
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