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On September 30 2010 16:54 morimacil wrote:
Just because you lost as PP against TZ cheese doesnt mean its unbeatable. If you scout on 8, you can just make a forge and a cannon next to your nexus when you scout the double cheese, and then go on as normal.
I think you dont understand. The nexus is so huge that reapers will find a spot to snipe the nexus from.
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On September 30 2010 17:54 FetTerBender wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 17:15 EtherealDeath wrote:On September 30 2010 17:07 FetTerBender wrote:
Thanks for the nice introduction, Ethereal!
Some suggestions: No matter what the combo (i myself play with my allys dual random) the basics of 2on2 is scouting the enemies. If i see reapers and a 7 pool, i have the chance to react in a correct way, no matter which race i got.
The second important thing is, to know when to help your ally to defend or when to counter - push the eco of your enemies. It needs quite some time to get a feeling for the "what could turn this game around", thus making 2on2 so interesting.
Cheers! How would you defend 7rax/7pool as PP? I tend to play "crazy" vs. such (obviously strong vs team) openings. However, i have to admit the success rate being ~30% at best. At a 8 scout, i would possibly suggest to go instant forge and def at my mineral line. At the same time, the scout probes starts placing pylons in the gas and the mineral line of the Terran, to put pressure on the economy. If the reapers do not defend but attack, my focus would be on trying to warp in a cannon in the minerals of the Terran and defend the home bases with the rest. If the Terran can be economically crippeled, you stand a chance to pull 2 Gate mixed vs. the Zerg. This is - in fact - not a sexy situation to be in. But with Pylons in the mineral and gas lines of the Terran you can delay the income massively, thus slowing down the reapers and reducing the threat to your home bases from 1v2 (cannons cant come help) to 1v1.5... Suggestions? Cheers!
The problem with that is the TZ can easily choose to not cheese, and then your positioning at your mineral line will give you difficulties later on, not to mention that your forge(assuming you built it before your 8 scout found them) would be useless. It's just not an equilibrium point. Also, doing that gives up map control/threat and allows really early expand for both T and Z.
I have no idea what an equilibrium point would be for this ~_~
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Looking for episode 2 suggestions! Give me one someone! What topic do you have a burning desire to hear about!
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Vote for defending cheese on split bases, that goes beyond the usual vague advices about scouting, stalling and helping your ally. I think those being so much more powerful than in 1v1 discourages a lot of people from even trying 2v2. Since taking all the possibilities into account would be an enormous task, maybe pick the already mentioned reaper / ling rush as reference - which is the hardest of them all anyway - and explain how the various comps should respond.
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Update - haven't had the time for a lot of long writing recently, between various other things ><. Uploaded some replays to partially make up for it hopefully 
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Made a bit of an update which is not quite finished yet, have a couple more sections to write ~_~
The part on the "divorced" maps which I will be writing might be of particular interest, since it will cover the lovely early game all ins which are very popular and hard to defend on those maps. For now, the "safe' maps are up!
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Great update, can't wait for info on the new maps!
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Thanks for the great update Ethereal! It sure helps a ton with my 2v2.
However, I am wondering which race combo do you find to be the most challenging to go up against? I myself have the most problem with ZZ teams due to their insane mobility on most 2v2 maps. Do you find ZZ to be the hardest to beat as well?
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Reaper/ling cheese has gotten rather unpopular due to the amount of time it takes to get reapers, and the fact that they will not have reaper speed ever during the rush because it requires factory now.
On the safe maps, if it is a 7rax reaper + whatever pool, just cut probes the moment you scout this (scouting at 9), and block off your ramp completely. There is no way the zerg is coming up your base, and your ally who now has 3 barracks will hold off the 7rax easily.
On the other maps (excluding War Zone), if you see it, immediately completely the wall off at both of your ramps (do not try walling off the common choke on Scorched Haven), with the extra detail in which your terran ally builds his 2nd barracks asap in your base. You will want a forge for cannon at your ramp so that you can stall any push on your ramp. Your ally should be fine, as he will have marines (he should have 2 barracks in his main).
If the zerg went 10 pool speed along with 7 rax, they shouldn't be able to break up your ramp. However, he may see this and go roaches - with a bad economy. Either way it is unlikely they will be able to transition out of this unless you play very passively or they somehow do a lot of damage. You should be transitioning into 4 gate as fast as possible after you get a cannon up at your ramp. Do build stalkers though after cyber core finishes. That way the marines your ally built in your base can help defend one of the important positions (min line + ramp) and you can cover the other with something other than 1 cannon. You should not have any part of your ramp blocked by a supply depot or pylon. Reapers + ling can kill these ridiculously quickly, and if they get in you lose.
Your ally should be going 3rax (3 tech lab) after he has a decent number of marines and can hold his choke even if a tech lab got killed. He will then be going pure marauder. Get stim and combat shield - concussive shell is last.
If you do take inordinate damage or are stalled in your base with no threat of pressure for a long time, then you may need to expand instead of trying to pressure, because it is possible for them to get a factory at 17, get fast siege mode, and then siege at their common choke, take expands, and then drone up. However, if they do this and you were not really damaged, then you can just break their choke down. Just don't clump your units up too much while within siege tank range, and hug whatever cliff does not have siege tanks on top of it (going for the zerg's main preferrably).
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On December 01 2010 04:03 DragoNite wrote:
Thanks for the great update Ethereal! It sure helps a ton with my 2v2.
However, I am wondering which race combo do you find to be the most challenging to go up against? I myself have the most problem with ZZ teams due to their insane mobility on most 2v2 maps. Do you find ZZ to be the hardest to beat as well?
ZZ is hard to beat on War Zone because they can switch between the rocks and the main ramp so well, and they can just go one base each, one going roaches, the other mass speedling.
Otherwise, I'd say TZ because of their ridiculous mobility and firepower until late game, at which point PZ gets to be ridiculous.
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Feels good to see a fellow toss up there so high
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Thanks for this thorough map analysis, I definitely learned a thing or two about Twilight Fortress.
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On December 01 2010 18:58 Geiko wrote:Wow, very nice insight, thanks a lot for those answers. It's true reaperling is less common nowadays, but still can hurt quite a lot if it catches you offguard. I posted a 2v2 strategy some time ago, what would you say is the proper response ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170655
If your strat is executed properly there is no response without maphack. You have to KNOW from the start it's coming or you can't stop it (when its done right). I would say ZZ could maybe stop it but any other race combination no...
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On December 01 2010 18:58 Geiko wrote:Wow, very nice insight, thanks a lot for those answers. It's true reaperling is less common nowadays, but still can hurt quite a lot if it catches you offguard. I posted a 2v2 strategy some time ago, what would you say is the proper response ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170655
If I don't scout at 9 (which I do anyways) I am done. Otherwise, the 10 gate is a telltale sign of rush, and once I don't see the 2nd chrono it cements it. At this point, if we do not have a shared ramp (it's easy to block on shared ramp), then I go 3 gate, no chrono on warpgate, just chronoing my units. Complete wall off on my part. I will have enough units to stop a 5 warpgate by killing the first wave, and getting a gradual advantage until I have enough stalkers that it doesn't matter.
Similarly, terran ally fully walls off, and goes 4 barracks, putting tech lab on 4th barracks, making pure marine until then. We will get to the point where we can stop any warp in zealots of yours, and then kill the overlord which is giving vision (or at least forcing to screw off!). Actually against this earlier when I was around 2300 (now 2407), and we were a PP team.
Once we defeat the initial warp in, we do not push. We gather units - and I get 2nd gas for sentry, and then we expand, taking care to watch out for more overlord pylon shenanigans. I dislike pushing after defense unless you do not stop warping in zealots, and I kill multiple waves, in which case I will push.
It's not really anything different than an unkilled pylon on Tarsonis Assault - which is imo the most dangerous map to play against this on, due to the ridiculously wide ramp, which you can dps very well against (as zerg).
So, in summary, full wall in so that whoever you attack, it is really a 1v1, with the zerglings being a nonissue.
Protoss should not die to 5 warpgate rush.
Terran should not die to 5 warpgate rush.
And if your warpgate rush doesn't work, we're slightly up, though not won yet! Of course lots of various things can happen, and your build isn't bad by any means. Note that on Tempest, since there are 3 possible places for you to spawn, we actually do a double early scout so we can find you in time to prepare against any such rushes.
edit - working on the "average" maps now while watching GSL. Also noticed I left out Tempest in the map analysis.
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Alright, wrote up the rest of the maps. Enjoy ~!
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Do you ever forge fast expand? I play PT, and I've found some success with FFE. It's worked well on scorched earth and twilight fortress. It lets both us expand quite early while holding off early pressure, and our macro kicks in before any bigger attacks. I get the forge blind, but then only build cannons based on what I scout. Forge ends up being super handy if they end up going mutas, too.
We've recently been playing around with phoenix harass on one person, and stim dropping the other side if they overreact. It does great on keeping them busy while the macro has time to kick in for a four-base push.
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Forge FE has a weakness in that a zerg protoss team will be able to nydus + warp into one of your bases via the side, bypassing your cannons. Also, if the other team is tz and goes mass speedling + marine, you won't be able to cover the entire choke with cannons, so there will be a vulnerable angle, and especially 10pool speed will give you troubles if you get your forge blind at the bottom in the common choke. Of course if you scout early before putting the forge down then you can avoid this. It is usually a decent opening though. I don't usually do it because it destroys any early game mobile pressure options.
What's your timing for the phoenix harass + stim drop? Seems like if you open forge into that, there is a window where they can push you with primarily gateway units + bio/tank and break your choke.
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How do u deal with 3 roach rush and very fast 3 marauders or 2 marauders + 2 marines. This strikes 4:30 (in ur base).
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EPT
