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This post will get updated periodically, as I doubt I can think of everything I would write all at once. So, let's do this by topics!
Obligatory OP credentials..
+ Show Spoiler [As of 12/01/2010] +2407 Diamond 2v2 RT, #7 World #3 NA on SC2Ranks, and #1 Protoss World/NA
11.30.2010
This new post should be relatively long - have plenty of time to waste while watching GSL  . Noting something involving the games currently going on... the topic of the day is when to attack. Before we go into matchup specifics, it will be necessary to look at the different variety of 2v2 maps, as the type of map has a severe effect on whether or not you have good chances with aggression. We will proceed from the viewpoint of either a PZ or PT team (sorry I hate PP so much).
The SAFE maps
All 4 maps share the property of a shared ramp. High Orbit has a backdoor entrance via destructible rocks whereas Twilight Fortress does not, but the ramp on Twilight Fortress is somewhat large, and the back rocks on High Orbit can only be accessed from the main ramp via a long path when attacking. So, once they commit at one location, they cannot have a large number of forces at the other very quickly, so you have an advantage defending due to the extremely short distance you need to move in order to go from one entrance to the other. Tempest is a bit special - I'll get to that.
In order of safeness from supersafe to less supersafe,
- Tempest + Show Spoiler [Map Image] +
- Discord IV + Show Spoiler [Map Image] +
- High Orbit + Show Spoiler [Map Image] +
- Twilight Fortress + Show Spoiler [Map Image] +
The AVERAGE maps
In the same decreasing order of safeness,
- Scorched Haven + Show Spoiler [Map Image] +
Scorched Haven has the property that while there is not a shared ramp, the entrance between the two cliffs is not very large. In fact, if you are a PT team, you can safely wall it off. You may have to cut probes to do it though.
- War Zone + Show Spoiler [Map Image] +
War Zone is interesting. While there is a common ramp, there are 2 side entrances blocked by destructible rocks, for which you actually have a slight defender's disadvantage since the attacker can actually bounce from location to location faster than you can. You are forced into building a lot of early units, especially sentry, unless you are absolutely certain there is no early pressure coming. So, this map CAN be safe, but at the same time it can be very, very difficult to defend, due to the general slowness of protoss and the wideness of each ramp.
The DIVORCED rest
These maps all share the property of separate ramps wherein the space between is not particularly easy to defend. If the opponents push hard early and you are both defending on your own ramps, you will have a very difficult defending time as PZ, and even as PT, though to a lesser extent. If you are out in the open there are many harassive options open to the opponent unless you went double early pressure as well.
In no particular order of safeness...
We will discuss the safe maps from a PT perspective.
On Safe Maps
On the safe maps, it is not recommended that you go for any early game all in, or any early game push that involves econ cutting due to the ease with which any such shenanigans can be defended - you're really relying on your opponent to make a trivial error if you want any success with such play.
On Twilight Fortress, due to the fact that you can both expo fairly easily, and due to the long rush distance (if you don't want to be spotted by watch towers which are not easy to take simultaneously without being caught), any attack that does not rely heavily on opponent error will hit mid game. So, if you want to all in (bring scvs and whatnot) do it after you take your nat, then cut probes at around 44 (16 per base on minerals, 3 on each gas), and you may have slightly more probes on minerals, and go for an all in push once you have a few colossus and a few tank or thor. Otherwise, try to take position at the ramp in front of the opponent's nat, hold it, and expand whenever you scout that your army is capable of holding theirs, and you have at least equivalent reinforcing ability.
Note that the shared ramp is quite large, so if you scout a 10 pool speed or 7 pool coming along with comparable early game pressure from the zerg's ally, you will have to help your terran ally wall off. Thus, you should build your first pylon at the ramp. Choose the side you will be walling off - your ally starts from the other side of the ramp. In case of double 7 pool, cut probes and wall off immediately with 2 gateways to help your ally wall off - do not build a forge UNLESS you intend on pushing after 4 warpgate, because if you do so intend, then immediately put down a forge after first gateway at 12, and get +1 attack. Then,
- Go for 4 warpgate with double gas, chronoing the warpgate research. Your ally goes 4rax pure marine, no tech. Do get combat shield and stime though
- Scan one of the zerg mains after first round of gateway units warp in.
Now, if you scout very few drones still, you do not need to push (although you can, and will probably win - slight element of risk though, and if you do, make sure to chrono +1 attack and have a lot of zealot). Spend chrono boost on probes, expand, and make a lot of sentries. Your ally expands as well, and techs medivac. You don't need to worry about banelings EXCEPT through burrowed banelings, as any unborrowed ones will be dealt with via your copious sentry energy. You can then transition into a mid game attack with 1/0/1 (def/shield/atk) upgrades.
Other than this, there is no early game pressure you really need to worry about. Anything else you can handle through a 3rax expand and a 3 gate expand. Mid-game play is really quite variable based on what your opponents do. Just make sure to get a robo immediately after expand, or, if you suspect fast dt rush, go 3 gate robo expand. Really funny stuff can happen in 2v2 that seems crazy but is hard to deal with if you don't scout it - for example, cloaked banshee + phoenix. It may sound funny, but when you can safely expand relatively quickly by 2v2 standards, such play is completely possible, and has a tendency of killing observers and forcing scan. You have to go phoenix yourself in such cases, and have terran go marine, and some thor if possible, as thor prevent his phoenix from clumping, and if his phoenix cannot clump but yours can, you can always engage a small portion of his force with your entire force.
High Orbit and Discord IV are similar in that while the shared ramp is easy to defend and easy to fully wall off if necessary, expos are harder to secure. On High Orbit, expoing at the double natural is hard to defend since it makes the distance you have to move to defend your destructible rocks abhorrent. It is possible to for you to both expo by your rocks and hold the cliff by the watch tower, but then your main is very, very vulnerable to mobile air play. On Discord IV, expoing past the sole natural is difficult.
On Discord IV your best option is either to play to take a natural, leaving your team with 2 bases + 1 base, or double one base tech cheese. For the former, you then either power units to push down their team's 4th base whenever it is about to finish OR, if you want to play it safer, temporarily gas trade to one person so as to gain more t2 units of a particular flavor faster - the strongest version I think is 2 robo colossus + 1 gate zealot (which is actually sustainable off 1 protoss base funny enough, with terran resource support). Your terran ally builds barracks units (this is before expanding). You will almost certainly have a timing window wherein you have more colossus than they have colossus + tank due to your chrono boost being used purely for robo, and your terran ally will have more bio than the opposing team does. At this time you can push them purely for the intent of at least trading armies and forcing them to cancel any expands, and you both expand behind it whereas they cannot unless they mirrored your build due to the power of many colossus.
Whatever builds you choose, know that on High Orbit and Discord IV you must have a mobile army if you intend on playing a macro game past 3 bases. There are just so many directions from which you can be harassed when your team has 4 bases. For example, on Discord IV warpins can be done into your main across the gap from the 3 and 9 o'clock double expands. There may also be warp prism play, or a warp in to the main while pushing your team's 4th, or a small warp in to your 3rd via warp prism. Nydus is actually not as worrisome, because it is not really cheap and you can scout for that.
I don't really have a set build for High Orbit because so many things can happen on that map, as there is not a single "safe" expo. However, against TZ I often go fast upgrade (it's in one of the replays in the part 2 replay pack), where I get fast +3 armor with blink stalkers, or 2/0/1 if I see them get an armor upgrade + roach/marauder. That build lets us expand pretty safely after blink is complete. and we have good mobility. Plus, marines and zerglings don't do anything to you! You will need colossus or templar for later in the game though. You don't play aggressively with this build though, as they can defend in prepared positions. However, if you are the one in the prepared positions, you can defend as well, and your mobility allows you to move to new prepared positions quickly, so this is really a management build despite the fast upgrades (literally all chronos going to upgrades).
In general, on the safe maps I'd prefer to play a safe, macro game where I work to never be vulnerable, take expansions, and play my opponent into an inferior position from which I gain accumulated advantages. I usually don't try to force a win until the advantage is pretty high. That's not to say you shouldn't be constantly harassing, because you should. Just shouldn't be devoting too much to a concentrated attack in early or mid game.
The "odd" safe map
I did mention that Tempest is a bit of an oddity. Indeed it is because it actually is a 4 team 2v2 map. So, one extra consideration on this map is that you must double scout - both you and your terran ally send out an early scout, so you can quickly determine if there is some sort of a superb all in coming. However, once you scout it, you will be able to prepare against whatever it is they are trying to throw at you.
Notice that although you don't have a shared ramp, the space between the ramps is actually quite small, so you can easily do a shared block at that common choke. You can then play for an expand. However, any bases beyond your natural are not easy to take unless you control the watchtower and have mobility to deal with any attacks, as the ground distance that you will have to cover to defend your bases is quite large. As such, if your opponents go air, you will have to as well unless they do it badly and there is a window of opportunity for you to simply push them down.
In practice, there are often many vulnerabilities and the army positioning and base setup weaknesses on this map due to the many angles of attack, so do poke around and look for openings after taking your nat. In particular, there are openings for drops and reapers from the direction of the adjacent spawn positions, so reaper transitions are quite powerful here if they do not expect it.
On Average maps
Although Scorched Haven is a bit safer than the "divorced" maps, oftentimes the opponents do not or cannot wall their common choke. Thus, they effectively have separate ramps. Now, on separate ramps, early attacks are very strong. If you can get into position before they have many units, you can permanently ff one of them in their base. I like to 4gate (but with 2 gas) + 3rax into expand quite a bit.
Otherwise, if you do not go for early game fun, note that you cannot take a 3rd base very easily - there are so many attack routes into any 3rd you can take, and the golds are spectacularly difficult to hold. Thus, if you are diligent on scouting and find then taking a third, and you have tanks/colo (which you should if you didn't go for early game weirdness and there is not something strange coming out of the opposing team), scout where their army is, and then position yourself so as to split their base + army in half, so that there is some base they cannot defend without attacking into your pre-set army.
On War Zone, if your opponent is 1 basing, you are forced into 1 basing until you have a sufficiently large force to defend your ramps. If there is a zerg on the opposing team, I like to take the initiative and get a lot of units out as fast as possible due to the ridiculous mobility of zerg. If he tries to expand, or if I scout that there seems to be slightly fewer units than usual, and both of my rocks are still up, I go balls deep on the other team, which is easy to do since at any rate my terran ally opens up 3rax regardless. With no zerg on the opposing team, I try to play a management game with a slightly faster expand than they get, and go for a mid game push with the goal of at least gaining map control and preventing them from expanding past their elevated area.
There is a lot of air space around your elevated area, so be wary of drops and warp prisms. Your main and side naturals are not as safe as they seem to be....
On a related note regarding your naturals, notice that you actually have 3 - one on each side and one in the middle. I prefer to take the middle and the one by the closest rocks. For example, if you spawn at the bottom, then you take the middle natural + the right natural. The reason for this is the two ramps there are the easiest ones for the attacking force to bounce between, so chances are that they will be harassing both simultaneously while have a smaller force breaking down the left rocks. At any rate, you will want to wall off two then 3 ramps as quickly as economically feasible if there is a zerg on the other team, because otherwise the threat of speedling backstabs makes it very difficult to hold your entire plateau safely.
On "Divorced" maps
These maps feature separate main ramps without easily wallable common chokes. As such, early pressure is a very common thing to do. In fact, I really like to do high early game pressure on these maps. Sometimes it kills the opponent outright, if they are a bit too greedy, sometimes we end up expoing and doing a mid game push, and sometimes it goes late game, but these maps are really built for early game aggression, so that is what I will be discussing here.
There are a few different considerations based on the different map structures. Note that Tarsonis Assault has a large ramp, so if you scout zergling cheese, then you must cut probes and quickly wall off. Otherwise, you will be in some trouble. Also, it is possible to warp in across the ditch into either base, so be aware of proxy pylons above your main! Note that Arid Wastes has a nromal ramp at the mains, but a Tarsonis Assault type ramp at the naturals. Note also how far apart the mains are, and how if an attacking army manages to go up one of the naturals, they effectively have split the opposition in half, because you will not be able to easily go up that natural ramp against two armies. As such, I prefer to wall off at the natural ramp, with my terran ally doing the same. Note also that there is a backdoor for exactly one person of each team. Whoever spawns in the position with the backdoor will have to make extra early game units in order to be able to hold so that your ally can get into position to help defend. Arid Wastes is simply a normal ramp at each main with separate ramps, so it is similar in considerations to Scorched Haven, with the caveat that you can't really do an effective combined wall off even if you wanted to.
Now, on to the build order matchups. Here we assume your terran ally opens 3 rax regardless, and the protoss might 4 gate with 20 probes, or maybe not chrono the warpgate research and instead chrono unit production off 3 gate and get a slightly later warpgate, or a variety of other builds. If you end up going to midgame, I prefer having my terran ally going part mech part bio, and I go 2x chronoed robo if there is not heavy air play from the opposition (scouted by scan + obs), or otherwise transition into stargate + gateway.
These will necessarily be brief - ask in thread for any clarifications/more detailed explanations.
- vs ZZ
- vs double 7 pool
Immediately wall off your ramp (COMPLETE wall off - no gaps at all, no pylon in wall in), with the protoss going 12 gate, then forge (+another gateway on wide ramps) before restarting probe production. Then transition into a 4gate + 4 rax push, spending an extra chrono on probes.
- vs double 10 pool
Wall off completely again, but this time do a 4gate + 3rax expand, as the zerg can actually manage to defend if you go for a real serious push. Threaten pressure though - if there are overlords nearby, kill them, and keep pushing towards their base, showing a probe along with your army as if you are going for a forward pylon into serious pressure, but then pull back after the remnant overlord vision fades away.
- vs both pools after overlord
Go for a double gas 4 gate, with your terran ally going 3rax. Make sure you have a lot of sentries, and then push hard into one of the zergs, making sure to use ff to split the other zerg away.
- vs 7 pool + a non rushing ally
Full wall off again, but this time when you transition into 4gate + 4rax, push hard.
- 10 pool + non rushing ally
3gate 3rax expand.
- vs any sort of double fe or double tech or fe/tech build
Mass marine/zealot all in. All chrono on zealot after you scout the double eco/tech.
- vs TZ
- vs mass speedling + marine
Quite a powerful early game rush this is, especially on wide ramps. If you don't scout a gas on terran, or it is late, or scout the zerg and see that he is going speedling and foregoing expand, then spend all your chrono on units, and your terran ally going mass marine, with combat shield and stim as fast as possible. You need stalker sentry as fast as possible - don't wait for warpgate research to finish before building units. It will be too late. Your job is hold until you have a noticeably superior force of stalker as opposed to the opposing marines, and then you and your army can move out simultaneously and push.
- vs 3rax + mass speedling
Same as vs mass speedling + marine, but you can get your second gas and have a stronger economy, as the early game push is actually not as strong at the outset. you then transition into stalker sentry, and let ff win the day for you. Don't screw up on micro though - the entire point is to keep your units alive and get a lot of sentries with a lot of energy. You then push before siege tank, and you should be able to deal a lot of damage and possibly kill the opponent. Make sure to use ff to block reinforcements from the player you choose NOT to attack. Preferably, this would be the terran, as going up a terran ramp is difficult.
- vs bio/roach
Same 4 gate with sentry + 3rax, but do not go up the zerg's ramp until you have cleared out any nearby terran units and ff the terran's ramp. Bad things can happen if you are shooting at roaches up a ramp and stimmed bio shows up in your rear.
- vs one or more fast teching/expanding
All-in fast and hard.
- vs PZ
- Korean 4 warpgate + mass speedling
Full wall of at ramp, and then just play to counter a 4 warpgate, that is, chrono your units. Don't bother trying to push them, just play for an expand.
- Korean 4 warpgate + econ or tech
Move out and kill the pylon/probe - you cannot risk doing this against mass speedling zerg. When you are sure there is not a hidden pylon somewhere that will bite you in the ass, push them. Immediately.
- Korean 4 warpgate + roach
Once again you can move out and kill the pylon/probe, but this time pushing them is not a good idea until you have sentries, which you should have faster than the opposing protoss. Make sure to ff his zealots out of the battle, and shoot/pull back to kill as many zealots as possible before stimming and engaging the bulk of their army.
- 4 warpgate + non fast expo/tech
All up to your control . Enjoy!
- One or more fast tech/expand
Just attack. No need even to make it all in.
Against PT, it's a mirror, so whoever executes better... wins! I actually don't particularly like doing early aggression against mirrors unless one of them techs or expands. Otherwise, I just try to defend into expo.
Haven't really played against much TT or PP  . I think PP sucks though ^^;;
Whew, finally finished typing all that. Ask away ~!
+ Show Spoiler [Part 2 (Replay Pack)] +11.12.2010Haven't had the time lately for a lot of writing. Hopefully I'll get some done during the upcoming thanksgiving break >< Until then, here are some replays (7) of various qualities to maybe keep you 2v2 lovers entertained! Played all of these today, finally remembering to save them since there is no lovely iccup autosave . All of the games are playing while above 2k diamond in RT (currently 2072 diamond RT, 189-117). Hope you enjoy! http://www.2shared.com/file/CtXYSB86/2v2.htmlPS I'm Protoss.
+ Show Spoiler [Part 1 (Outdated - patch 1.1.1 stuff)] +Episode 1: What should I play?Well, that depends on what you are asking. Perhaps you are concerned with team composition, that is, should I play PT or PP or ZZ, etc. Or, perhaps you are thinking of a playstyle, about how you want to try to control the game. Let's start with the former. You cannot simply choose any two races, combine them together, and expect to get to the top unless you are insanely better than everyone else you play. Some combinations just are no good, or rather, they seem no good at my current level (1299 Random 2v2, 107-61 as P). Consider PP vs TZ on Scorched Haven: + Show Spoiler [Scorched Haven preview] +Terran opens with 7 rax reaper, zerg with 7 pool. There a few popular options currently for protoss. Either you initially 1 gate, with gate around 10 to 12, or you 2gate, or you build at the common choke and try to expand. If you try to do the latter as PP again TZ, it doesn't matter if you go the forge route or with gateway. With gateway, you cannot cover all your options against reaper. If you go forge, you certainly cannot cover all the reapers' options. Suppose you don't build at your choke. Let's say you build at your ramp. The TZ focus on one protoss, whichever one seems more vulnerable. The other one will not be able to help him. Stalkers will not be out, only zealots. The reaper/ling will deal with zealots easily. If you go down your ramp to try to help your ally, TZ can simply pull back, surround your zealot, and kill. If you don't block at your ramp, you have even less of a chance because now the TZ has plenty of maneuvering room in your base. Another possibility is to simply sac one of the protosses, so that they simply try to delay/mine resources and give it to their ally for a timing push. While this might work against lower level TZ as they focus too heavily on completely killing someone before moving on, the weakness with this strategy is that the TZ need only conquer the ramp. Once that is done, it is expedient to keep just one reaper in the base of the protoss that has just been defeated, and immediately turn the rest of the army and reinforcements to the other protoss so that he cannot execute a timing attack. Note this assumes that the first protoss to be attacked built at his ramp. If not, simply unpower the gateways/any cannons and proceed from there. The amazing thing about opening 7rax/7pool again PP is that even if by some miracle the protosses pull off the sexiest micro ever and survive, you are NOT dead. You do not go hardcore reaper or hardcore ling. Terran immediately switches to factory + tech lab for siege tanks around 22 supply assuming that the protosses are being controlled well, which they should be, and zerg transitions into roach/hydra. You research siege immediately, hold your choke, and expand. You then attack in that time interval where you have expansion, the effects of theirs have not kicked in yet, and the difference between your forces is greatest. All in all, TZ vs PP is pretty damn hard for the PP, if it is even possible given equally (very) skilled players... I like playing as PT the most. I play either the P or T in this, I'm about the same with both, and perhaps a little better with T in 2v2. The reason is that the T can exert insane map control while the P helps, expands, and utilizes the amazing power of protoss warpgate/robo tech along with casters. Terran has the amazing ability to be extremely effective at harassing no matter how small the numbers, especially on 2v2 maps, which have many avenues of entry for reapers, vikings, banshees, medivacs. One of my favorite builds as T against PZ is to open 2 or 3 rax reaper into helion if the Z goes ling, or banshee if he goes roach, while my protoss ally goes stalker/sentry. I strive to keep my reapers alive as long as possible, so that hopefully by the time my next phase of harass arives, be it helion/medivac or banshee, the reapers are still alive, so I can attack from many angles at once, while my ally safely expands and goes colossus. I really cannot imagine playing without a T in 2v2 - they are just so good for it. Also, if you are playing PT, please Mr. P, go scout at 9. It makes a terran sad to have to go scout Controlling the gameIf you plan to play aggressively, play very aggressively. If you plan to play a passive macro game, do it like Savior in 2006. It's really hard to strike a balance between the two extremes and do well. Of course, if you have just dealt a tremendous blow to your opponents, say you killed their expansions and they will momentarily be mined out. You should stop your aggression and play defensively so as to absorb the attack that is almost certainly imminent, assuming you have and they know you have a great economic advantage. That's an easy case of walking the line between the extremes. In general you just have to play a lot and get experience so as to better judge what you need to do. The general rules are just like those in 1v1, so I won't get into those. However, it is supremely important to coordinate with your ally. One should not simply mass units. Coordinate with your ally what you are building. Zerg forced to switch to mass ling because of something you did to his economy? Fine, let the protoss continue with stalker/sentry to deal with what the zerg's ally could do. You go helion and everything is fine if you keep your armies positioned together properly. If you go helion, don't say anything, and he goes zealot, well, that's a waste. It probably won't make you lose, but it's a waste regardless because you already have what you needed to counter the lings, and not having stalkers makes you more vulnerable against say, mutas. Are you harassing from a certain angle? Well, have your ally hit from another simultaneously. Count it down if you must. Alternatively, have your ally focus purely on his economy and army while you keep the opponents busy. Your actions should complement each other. Playing two 1v1s on the same map is not how one plays 2v2. Force different counters -> if my ally goes speedling/baneling, a PP team will be hard pressed if they go stalker/sentry because I will have marauder. In that case, they will have to build some zealots and rely on positioning along with force field. Well, I will just make some ghosts and bring them with our attack, and emp the zealots and sentries. If possible, empd stalkers are nice too. The point is that once the zealots are dead, the stalkers are done for. Sentries that can't cast force field are a bonus, so they get the next priority. Ghosts are super powerful in 2v2, especially against protoss. It is incredible how fast you will melt the protoss army if you have ghosts. The best part is that if the protoss goes heavily stalker/sentry, his concave will take a lot of space. Stalkers have long range, so it is possible that they might block his terran ally, and prevent his mmm from hitting you until the stalkers die. Given that your ally can make whatever while you making ghosts, and Stalker/sentry die easily enough as it is in 1v1.... you can imagine what happens when you give an army (your ally's) free emps. Do not get caught in places where there is not much room for your army to arc! 2v2 maps are not that much more open than 1v1 maps - in many cases, they are even less open in important areas. That is disastrous if you and your ally get stuck in a place where half your army can't attack while the other part fights! To keep this from happening, keep observers or burrowed units in the areas where armies would normally have to pass through. Well, that's a few things that I could find off the top of my mind. Any suggestions for the next topic? Post it here if you have any D: P.S. CSL has 2v2 this season fuck yea~!
Time's a burning while weaiting for GSL. Give me an Episode 2 topic suggestion someone!
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Im pretty sure that any combo can be viable in 2v2.
Just because you lost as PP against TZ cheese doesnt mean its unbeatable. If you scout on 8, you can just make a forge and a cannon next to your nexus when you scout the double cheese, and then go on as normal.
The cannon and forge arent wasted, they will be good against possible muta/banshee harass later on, and your opponents sacrificed a ton of economy, and probably dont have any idea how to play a non-cheese game.
Depending on your combo, and what kind of double cheese your opponent is doing, you might have to make bigger adjustments, but its never impossible.
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On September 30 2010 16:54 morimacil wrote:
Im pretty sure that any combo can be viable in 2v2.
Just because you lost as PP against TZ cheese doesnt mean its unbeatable. If you scout on 8, you can just make a forge and a cannon next to your nexus when you scout the double cheese, and then go on as normal.
The cannon and forge arent wasted, they will be good against possible muta/banshee harass later on, and your opponents sacrificed a ton of economy, and probably dont have any idea how to play a non-cheese game.
Depending on your combo, and what kind of double cheese your opponent is doing, you might have to make bigger adjustments, but its never impossible.
Cannon at nexus nevertheless leaves angles from which reapers can hit mineral line and or nexus or at least assimilators without receiving return fire. As such, you are limited to either no gas units or your nexus is dead. You simply cannot get enough cannons up to cover all angles in time. And obviously, whoever does it cannot help their ally for quite a while, and that ally will simply be 2v1'd. If both do it, just exploit the angles on one of them.
p.s. i usually win vs it with a competent ally simply because most people who do it on bnet cant control and multitask well 
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Thanks for the nice introduction, Ethereal!
Some suggestions: No matter what the combo (i myself play with my allys dual random) the basics of 2on2 is scouting the enemies. If i see reapers and a 7 pool, i have the chance to react in a correct way, no matter which race i got.
The second important thing is, to know when to help your ally to defend or when to counter - push the eco of your enemies. It needs quite some time to get a feeling for the "what could turn this game around", thus making 2on2 so interesting.
Cheers!
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PP vs TZ/TP is unbeatable with the early reaper/zealot reaper/ling. Don't try to make it out like scouting will help, you can not even counteract it at that point. This does not even have to assume same skill, just a minimum skill for the TZ/TP.
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On September 30 2010 17:09 Jaug wrote:
PP vs TZ/TP is unbeatable with the early reaper/zealot reaper/ling. Don't try to make it out like scouting will help, you can not even counteract it at that point. This does not even have to assume same skill, just a minimum skill for the TZ/TP.
TP reaper/zealot is a bit easier to deal with. Problem is that i can't effectively deal with lings while keeping reapers busy due to their speed and ability to surround due to numbers. Zealots have neither of those properties, so while it is still damn hard to defend, it is at least a bit easier. It is actually possible you can survive with enough probes intact for your ally to get stalkers while you get enough zealots... but it is a razor thin edge you walk.
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On September 30 2010 17:07 FetTerBender wrote:
Thanks for the nice introduction, Ethereal!
Some suggestions: No matter what the combo (i myself play with my allys dual random) the basics of 2on2 is scouting the enemies. If i see reapers and a 7 pool, i have the chance to react in a correct way, no matter which race i got.
The second important thing is, to know when to help your ally to defend or when to counter - push the eco of your enemies. It needs quite some time to get a feeling for the "what could turn this game around", thus making 2on2 so interesting.
Cheers!
How would you defend 7rax/7pool as PP?
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2v2 team 1231 (107-77) TP
2v2 random 989 (52-37) T+whatever
2v2 team (35-15) TT
I am a TP or TT 2v2 player (can someone I know please learn zerg lol). I feel that the reaper nerf was a great thing for 2v2 and since then we can survive the reaper/ling rush. It's also decreasing in popularity as far as I have noted anyways.
I would also like to note that I never lost a game to the racial matchup being unbalanced against my favor. I think people focus to much one these things. This is why we lose:
Positioning is still the number one reason for us to lose the game. As described in the OP you can get fucking owned if you get the stalkers in the front and silly terran units doing nothing in the back.
Number two reason for losing games is that our teams second expand comes to fast. Taking that first one was often a winning idea as we had good control of the game so far but the second one gets scouted and they just attack and have more stuff and win. Not saying you can't have 2 expand but you need to time it well.
We get rushed and die Yes, this includes losses from the reaper+ling rush, rally rushes, banelings busts and whatever you can think of. We die a lot from rushes still. BUT this used the be the number one reason and it feels like we keep getting better at blocking these things
ps: I would also imagine the builds being very similar on the asian server because I've heard casters say that. Europe people do all kinds of things and reaper ling not even standard play (talking about my experience only here could be wrong)
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On September 30 2010 17:15 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 17:07 FetTerBender wrote:
Thanks for the nice introduction, Ethereal!
Some suggestions: No matter what the combo (i myself play with my allys dual random) the basics of 2on2 is scouting the enemies. If i see reapers and a 7 pool, i have the chance to react in a correct way, no matter which race i got.
The second important thing is, to know when to help your ally to defend or when to counter - push the eco of your enemies. It needs quite some time to get a feeling for the "what could turn this game around", thus making 2on2 so interesting.
Cheers! How would you defend 7rax/7pool as PP?
I have no experience with the race protoss so it's hard for me to imagine. But using offensive cannons could be one idea.
as TT/TP If we have the same base Discord IV, High Orbit, Twilight Fortress then I wall off and get bunker after 9 barrack and he just goes all out to get maruders/stalkers.
If we get any time to take a breath I make a tech addon and start going reapers to or if my ally is terran he gets the reapers and I get a reactor focusing on the lings.
Maps were the bases are seperate we have nothing solid figured out. Just get shit out early and try to defend
edit: I will repair that first stalker with all my scvs if it comes down to that. we won several times by doing that
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t/z is like unbeateble in 2n2 except vs t/z ofc. Zerg has the speed, terran has the harras options and support tools aka medivacs/tanks its just damm hard to play vs tihs combo.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On September 30 2010 16:10 EtherealDeath wrote:
Oops general forumed ~_~
Moved to strategy!
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On September 30 2010 17:15 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 17:07 FetTerBender wrote:
Thanks for the nice introduction, Ethereal!
Some suggestions: No matter what the combo (i myself play with my allys dual random) the basics of 2on2 is scouting the enemies. If i see reapers and a 7 pool, i have the chance to react in a correct way, no matter which race i got.
The second important thing is, to know when to help your ally to defend or when to counter - push the eco of your enemies. It needs quite some time to get a feeling for the "what could turn this game around", thus making 2on2 so interesting.
Cheers! How would you defend 7rax/7pool as PP?
I tend to play "crazy" vs. such (obviously strong vs team) openings. However, i have to admit the success rate being ~30% at best.
At a 8 scout, i would possibly suggest to go instant forge and def at my mineral line. At the same time, the scout probes starts placing pylons in the gas and the mineral line of the Terran, to put pressure on the economy. If the reapers do not defend but attack, my focus would be on trying to warp in a cannon in the minerals of the Terran and defend the home bases with the rest. If the Terran can be economically crippeled, you stand a chance to pull 2 Gate mixed vs. the Zerg.
This is - in fact - not a sexy situation to be in. But with Pylons in the mineral and gas lines of the Terran you can delay the income massively, thus slowing down the reapers and reducing the threat to your home bases from 1v2 (cannons cant come help) to 1v1.5...
Suggestions?
Cheers!
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I always play Zerg with a good Terran friend. I'm much better than him, so we aren't really a top team(we're hovering at 900-950). We never cheese though, so I hope we will improve quickly.
Anyway, what I find is THE strategy for any 2v2 on any map, is denying the opponents 3rd base. Naturals on 2v2 maps are usually easily defendable, so you have to hurt them when they are trying to take their 3rd base. I think after we hit mid/high diamond we won 70%+ of our games by just starving them out, while we desperately defend the 1 base we have more than them. We've also started doing a build, where I hatch before pool, while he places some bunkers smartly and goes M&M. This deals very well with a lot of 1 base timing attacks I see a lot from TP teams, and leaves us with the economic advantage.
Another thing is air is extremely strong on the bigger 2v2 maps, so I always go mass mutalisk, no matter what I'm facing. roach hydra is terrible in team games imo, unless your opponents are noobs and don't deny your creeo spread. In 2v2 if you have 2+ bases to defend, you need speedy units, not slow ass roach hydra.
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On September 30 2010 17:04 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 16:54 morimacil wrote:
Im pretty sure that any combo can be viable in 2v2.
Just because you lost as PP against TZ cheese doesnt mean its unbeatable. If you scout on 8, you can just make a forge and a cannon next to your nexus when you scout the double cheese, and then go on as normal.
The cannon and forge arent wasted, they will be good against possible muta/banshee harass later on, and your opponents sacrificed a ton of economy, and probably dont have any idea how to play a non-cheese game.
Depending on your combo, and what kind of double cheese your opponent is doing, you might have to make bigger adjustments, but its never impossible. Cannon at nexus nevertheless leaves angles from which reapers can hit mineral line and or nexus or at least assimilators without receiving return fire. As such, you are limited to either no gas units or your nexus is dead. You simply cannot get enough cannons up to cover all angles in time. And obviously, whoever does it cannot help their ally for quite a while, and that ally will simply be 2v1'd. If both do it, just exploit the angles on one of them.
If both protoss make cannons, then the lings are pretty much useless. After that, you can make a gateway, and a cybercore, to get a stalker and repel the reaper(s). Send the sacrificial zealot to chase the reaper around for a bit while the stalker gets chronoboosted.
Sure, you cant cover your whole base with cannons, but as long as your mineral line doesnt get raped, you will be fine. a reaper wont kill your nexus in the time it takes to make a cybercore and a chronoboosted zealot.
And he definitly wont be able to kill it in time if he has to kite and kill the zealot you make while the cybercore is building.
If needed, you can pull a few probes to repel the reaper from your nexus. Thats a worse case scenario, but even if that does happen, and you lose a few probes, what you are left with, is one protoss with a bad economy, and one with a good economy, against a terran and a zerg, with both terrible economy.
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what would a "normal" opening as PT vs TZ be, if you face lings and reapers?
the T could get reapers himself I guess, but what to do as Protoss? Can I get a 10 Gate 12/13 Gas and then a zealot and a core as soon as the gate finishes and then get stalkers? Can this hold a rush like this?
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On September 30 2010 18:06 mathemagician1986 wrote:
Anyway, what I find is THE strategy for any 2v2 on any map, is denying the opponents 3rd base. Naturals on 2v2 maps are usually easily defendable, so you have to hurt them when they are trying to take their 3rd base. I think after we hit mid/high diamond we won 70%+ of our games by just starving them out, while we desperately defend the 1 base we have more than them. We've also started doing a build, where I hatch before pool, while he places some bunkers smartly and goes M&M. This deals very well with a lot of 1 base timing attacks I see a lot from TP teams, and leaves us with the economic advantage.
This is very interesting for me. Could you please elaborate on the "he places some bunkers smartly" ? Where does he place them ? On which map ? My zerg friend and I have a rather good mid-end game but we find ourself in difficult situations early game despite me going 3 rax + 1 bunker. Do you think several bunkers are necessary before first expand ?
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I've recently started playing some 2v2 and my introduction to 2v2 was games where i was rushed every single time.
I play TT, originally we tried to use similar tactics to those we use in 1v1 and go for a macro style game, but literally everyone, in the lower leagues at least, rushes. I guess beacuse attacking with an all-in rush is far easier than defending an all-in rush. The only problem with this is that it becomes very difficult to improve at 2v2 simply beacuse unless i rush myself i face losing in around 5-7mins.
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On September 30 2010 19:26 WrathOfAiur wrote:
what would a "normal" opening as PT vs TZ be, if you face lings and reapers?
the T could get reapers himself I guess, but what to do as Protoss? Can I get a 10 Gate 12/13 Gas and then a zealot and a core as soon as the gate finishes and then get stalkers? Can this hold a rush like this?
Depends on how early it is. If the Terran is proxying, then go 2 gate zealots (10/12-13 gate works) and the Terran needs to go Marauder, or reapers preferably. Either build so that you can funnel the zerglings at your ramp, or build close to your nexus. The point is that you want to protect your probes as much as possible. You should be able to hold off the lings easily, and just send a zealot around to chase a reaper until Terran help arrives.
Save your chronoboosts.
Now, the proxy is less common, but (bad) people do try saving up 4-5 reapers and then assaulting your front. If you suspect reaper/ling, scout it well but just go gate/gas/cyber (10,12,15 works).
Here a good wall and a few stalker/zealots/single sentry should hold you off just fine.
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My main 2v2 team usually plays with a TZ or TP combo, me being Terran. We have been RL friends since like 4th grade, which really helps. Our communication is probably a lot better than some of the online friends I have.
We moved from silver to top platinum (should be diamond soon), and have played about 200 games. We used to lose to cheese nearly everytime. I attribute this mainly to bad scouting. For example, my SCV would see a toss with nothing in his base except nexus, and then try to run back to near my base with that scout to find him. By then, it would be too late. Now, we will usually find the cheese much faster, and its pretty easy to deal with. Usually a matter of dancing back and forth between our bases and separating the enemy troops.
2v2 is super fun if you can find the right partner. I have done some 2v2 randoms, and man, it can be frustrating.
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On September 30 2010 16:54 morimacil wrote:
Just because you lost as PP against TZ cheese doesnt mean its unbeatable. If you scout on 8, you can just make a forge and a cannon next to your nexus when you scout the double cheese, and then go on as normal.
I think you dont understand. The nexus is so huge that reapers will find a spot to snipe the nexus from.
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On September 30 2010 17:54 FetTerBender wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 17:15 EtherealDeath wrote:On September 30 2010 17:07 FetTerBender wrote:
Thanks for the nice introduction, Ethereal!
Some suggestions: No matter what the combo (i myself play with my allys dual random) the basics of 2on2 is scouting the enemies. If i see reapers and a 7 pool, i have the chance to react in a correct way, no matter which race i got.
The second important thing is, to know when to help your ally to defend or when to counter - push the eco of your enemies. It needs quite some time to get a feeling for the "what could turn this game around", thus making 2on2 so interesting.
Cheers! How would you defend 7rax/7pool as PP? I tend to play "crazy" vs. such (obviously strong vs team) openings. However, i have to admit the success rate being ~30% at best. At a 8 scout, i would possibly suggest to go instant forge and def at my mineral line. At the same time, the scout probes starts placing pylons in the gas and the mineral line of the Terran, to put pressure on the economy. If the reapers do not defend but attack, my focus would be on trying to warp in a cannon in the minerals of the Terran and defend the home bases with the rest. If the Terran can be economically crippeled, you stand a chance to pull 2 Gate mixed vs. the Zerg. This is - in fact - not a sexy situation to be in. But with Pylons in the mineral and gas lines of the Terran you can delay the income massively, thus slowing down the reapers and reducing the threat to your home bases from 1v2 (cannons cant come help) to 1v1.5... Suggestions? Cheers!
The problem with that is the TZ can easily choose to not cheese, and then your positioning at your mineral line will give you difficulties later on, not to mention that your forge(assuming you built it before your 8 scout found them) would be useless. It's just not an equilibrium point. Also, doing that gives up map control/threat and allows really early expand for both T and Z.
I have no idea what an equilibrium point would be for this ~_~
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Looking for episode 2 suggestions! Give me one someone! What topic do you have a burning desire to hear about!
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Vote for defending cheese on split bases, that goes beyond the usual vague advices about scouting, stalling and helping your ally. I think those being so much more powerful than in 1v1 discourages a lot of people from even trying 2v2. Since taking all the possibilities into account would be an enormous task, maybe pick the already mentioned reaper / ling rush as reference - which is the hardest of them all anyway - and explain how the various comps should respond.
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Update - haven't had the time for a lot of long writing recently, between various other things ><. Uploaded some replays to partially make up for it hopefully
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Made a bit of an update which is not quite finished yet, have a couple more sections to write ~_~
The part on the "divorced" maps which I will be writing might be of particular interest, since it will cover the lovely early game all ins which are very popular and hard to defend on those maps. For now, the "safe' maps are up!
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Great update, can't wait for info on the new maps!
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Thanks for the great update Ethereal! It sure helps a ton with my 2v2.
However, I am wondering which race combo do you find to be the most challenging to go up against? I myself have the most problem with ZZ teams due to their insane mobility on most 2v2 maps. Do you find ZZ to be the hardest to beat as well?
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Reaper/ling cheese has gotten rather unpopular due to the amount of time it takes to get reapers, and the fact that they will not have reaper speed ever during the rush because it requires factory now.
On the safe maps, if it is a 7rax reaper + whatever pool, just cut probes the moment you scout this (scouting at 9), and block off your ramp completely. There is no way the zerg is coming up your base, and your ally who now has 3 barracks will hold off the 7rax easily.
On the other maps (excluding War Zone), if you see it, immediately completely the wall off at both of your ramps (do not try walling off the common choke on Scorched Haven), with the extra detail in which your terran ally builds his 2nd barracks asap in your base. You will want a forge for cannon at your ramp so that you can stall any push on your ramp. Your ally should be fine, as he will have marines (he should have 2 barracks in his main).
If the zerg went 10 pool speed along with 7 rax, they shouldn't be able to break up your ramp. However, he may see this and go roaches - with a bad economy. Either way it is unlikely they will be able to transition out of this unless you play very passively or they somehow do a lot of damage. You should be transitioning into 4 gate as fast as possible after you get a cannon up at your ramp. Do build stalkers though after cyber core finishes. That way the marines your ally built in your base can help defend one of the important positions (min line + ramp) and you can cover the other with something other than 1 cannon. You should not have any part of your ramp blocked by a supply depot or pylon. Reapers + ling can kill these ridiculously quickly, and if they get in you lose.
Your ally should be going 3rax (3 tech lab) after he has a decent number of marines and can hold his choke even if a tech lab got killed. He will then be going pure marauder. Get stim and combat shield - concussive shell is last.
If you do take inordinate damage or are stalled in your base with no threat of pressure for a long time, then you may need to expand instead of trying to pressure, because it is possible for them to get a factory at 17, get fast siege mode, and then siege at their common choke, take expands, and then drone up. However, if they do this and you were not really damaged, then you can just break their choke down. Just don't clump your units up too much while within siege tank range, and hug whatever cliff does not have siege tanks on top of it (going for the zerg's main preferrably).
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On December 01 2010 04:03 DragoNite wrote:
Thanks for the great update Ethereal! It sure helps a ton with my 2v2.
However, I am wondering which race combo do you find to be the most challenging to go up against? I myself have the most problem with ZZ teams due to their insane mobility on most 2v2 maps. Do you find ZZ to be the hardest to beat as well?
ZZ is hard to beat on War Zone because they can switch between the rocks and the main ramp so well, and they can just go one base each, one going roaches, the other mass speedling.
Otherwise, I'd say TZ because of their ridiculous mobility and firepower until late game, at which point PZ gets to be ridiculous.
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Feels good to see a fellow toss up there so high
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Thanks for this thorough map analysis, I definitely learned a thing or two about Twilight Fortress.
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On December 01 2010 18:58 Geiko wrote:Wow, very nice insight, thanks a lot for those answers. It's true reaperling is less common nowadays, but still can hurt quite a lot if it catches you offguard. I posted a 2v2 strategy some time ago, what would you say is the proper response ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170655
If your strat is executed properly there is no response without maphack. You have to KNOW from the start it's coming or you can't stop it (when its done right). I would say ZZ could maybe stop it but any other race combination no...
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On December 01 2010 18:58 Geiko wrote:Wow, very nice insight, thanks a lot for those answers. It's true reaperling is less common nowadays, but still can hurt quite a lot if it catches you offguard. I posted a 2v2 strategy some time ago, what would you say is the proper response ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170655
If I don't scout at 9 (which I do anyways) I am done. Otherwise, the 10 gate is a telltale sign of rush, and once I don't see the 2nd chrono it cements it. At this point, if we do not have a shared ramp (it's easy to block on shared ramp), then I go 3 gate, no chrono on warpgate, just chronoing my units. Complete wall off on my part. I will have enough units to stop a 5 warpgate by killing the first wave, and getting a gradual advantage until I have enough stalkers that it doesn't matter.
Similarly, terran ally fully walls off, and goes 4 barracks, putting tech lab on 4th barracks, making pure marine until then. We will get to the point where we can stop any warp in zealots of yours, and then kill the overlord which is giving vision (or at least forcing to screw off!). Actually against this earlier when I was around 2300 (now 2407), and we were a PP team.
Once we defeat the initial warp in, we do not push. We gather units - and I get 2nd gas for sentry, and then we expand, taking care to watch out for more overlord pylon shenanigans. I dislike pushing after defense unless you do not stop warping in zealots, and I kill multiple waves, in which case I will push.
It's not really anything different than an unkilled pylon on Tarsonis Assault - which is imo the most dangerous map to play against this on, due to the ridiculously wide ramp, which you can dps very well against (as zerg).
So, in summary, full wall in so that whoever you attack, it is really a 1v1, with the zerglings being a nonissue.
Protoss should not die to 5 warpgate rush.
Terran should not die to 5 warpgate rush.
And if your warpgate rush doesn't work, we're slightly up, though not won yet! Of course lots of various things can happen, and your build isn't bad by any means. Note that on Tempest, since there are 3 possible places for you to spawn, we actually do a double early scout so we can find you in time to prepare against any such rushes.
edit - working on the "average" maps now while watching GSL. Also noticed I left out Tempest in the map analysis.
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Alright, wrote up the rest of the maps. Enjoy ~!
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Do you ever forge fast expand? I play PT, and I've found some success with FFE. It's worked well on scorched earth and twilight fortress. It lets both us expand quite early while holding off early pressure, and our macro kicks in before any bigger attacks. I get the forge blind, but then only build cannons based on what I scout. Forge ends up being super handy if they end up going mutas, too.
We've recently been playing around with phoenix harass on one person, and stim dropping the other side if they overreact. It does great on keeping them busy while the macro has time to kick in for a four-base push.
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Forge FE has a weakness in that a zerg protoss team will be able to nydus + warp into one of your bases via the side, bypassing your cannons. Also, if the other team is tz and goes mass speedling + marine, you won't be able to cover the entire choke with cannons, so there will be a vulnerable angle, and especially 10pool speed will give you troubles if you get your forge blind at the bottom in the common choke. Of course if you scout early before putting the forge down then you can avoid this. It is usually a decent opening though. I don't usually do it because it destroys any early game mobile pressure options.
What's your timing for the phoenix harass + stim drop? Seems like if you open forge into that, there is a window where they can push you with primarily gateway units + bio/tank and break your choke.
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How do u deal with 3 roach rush and very fast 3 marauders or 2 marauders + 2 marines. This strikes 4:30 (in ur base).
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On December 01 2010 19:43 EtherealDeath wrote:If I don't scout at 9 (which I do anyways) I am done. Otherwise, the 10 gate is a telltale sign of rush, and once I don't see the 2nd chrono it cements it. At this point, if we do not have a shared ramp (it's easy to block on shared ramp), then I go 3 gate, no chrono on warpgate, just chronoing my units. Complete wall off on my part. I will have enough units to stop a 5 warpgate by killing the first wave, and getting a gradual advantage until I have enough stalkers that it doesn't matter. Similarly, terran ally fully walls off, and goes 4 barracks, putting tech lab on 4th barracks, making pure marine until then. We will get to the point where we can stop any warp in zealots of yours, and then kill the overlord which is giving vision (or at least forcing to screw off!). Actually against this earlier when I was around 2300 (now 2407), and we were a PP team. Once we defeat the initial warp in, we do not push. We gather units - and I get 2nd gas for sentry, and then we expand, taking care to watch out for more overlord pylon shenanigans. I dislike pushing after defense unless you do not stop warping in zealots, and I kill multiple waves, in which case I will push. It's not really anything different than an unkilled pylon on Tarsonis Assault - which is imo the most dangerous map to play against this on, due to the ridiculously wide ramp, which you can dps very well against (as zerg). So, in summary, full wall in so that whoever you attack, it is really a 1v1, with the zerglings being a nonissue. Protoss should not die to 5 warpgate rush. Terran should not die to 5 warpgate rush. And if your warpgate rush doesn't work, we're slightly up, though not won yet! Of course lots of various things can happen, and your build isn't bad by any means. Note that on Tempest, since there are 3 possible places for you to spawn, we actually do a double early scout so we can find you in time to prepare against any such rushes. edit - working on the "average" maps now while watching GSL. Also noticed I left out Tempest in the map analysis.
Wow, thanks a lot, you're actually the first to give a detailed solution that seems to work ! I will have to try this.
I wonder what would happen though if protoss didn't engage your army with the initial 5 zealots but instead ran around the base harassing probes etc... while the zerg bites off the wall in. When the second wave of 5 zealots comes, its 10 zealots (maybe 9 if you killed one) vs your army, and the wall in is almost broken.
I'll see, enough derailing of this thread :D
Once again thanks for the quality posts, it's nice to read someone who knows what he is doing
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On December 02 2010 02:09 Jarlax wrote:
How do u deal with 3 roach rush and very fast 3 marauders or 2 marauders + 2 marines. This strikes 4:30 (in ur base).
Really early pool = cannon + full wall in, 3 rax marine for terran. Not relying on gateway units, transition into them. Just have to position cannon so only one or two ranged units can hit them at a time from below.
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On December 02 2010 02:11 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 19:43 EtherealDeath wrote:On December 01 2010 18:58 Geiko wrote:Wow, very nice insight, thanks a lot for those answers. It's true reaperling is less common nowadays, but still can hurt quite a lot if it catches you offguard. I posted a 2v2 strategy some time ago, what would you say is the proper response ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170655 If I don't scout at 9 (which I do anyways) I am done. Otherwise, the 10 gate is a telltale sign of rush, and once I don't see the 2nd chrono it cements it. At this point, if we do not have a shared ramp (it's easy to block on shared ramp), then I go 3 gate, no chrono on warpgate, just chronoing my units. Complete wall off on my part. I will have enough units to stop a 5 warpgate by killing the first wave, and getting a gradual advantage until I have enough stalkers that it doesn't matter. Similarly, terran ally fully walls off, and goes 4 barracks, putting tech lab on 4th barracks, making pure marine until then. We will get to the point where we can stop any warp in zealots of yours, and then kill the overlord which is giving vision (or at least forcing to screw off!). Actually against this earlier when I was around 2300 (now 2407), and we were a PP team. Once we defeat the initial warp in, we do not push. We gather units - and I get 2nd gas for sentry, and then we expand, taking care to watch out for more overlord pylon shenanigans. I dislike pushing after defense unless you do not stop warping in zealots, and I kill multiple waves, in which case I will push. It's not really anything different than an unkilled pylon on Tarsonis Assault - which is imo the most dangerous map to play against this on, due to the ridiculously wide ramp, which you can dps very well against (as zerg). So, in summary, full wall in so that whoever you attack, it is really a 1v1, with the zerglings being a nonissue. Protoss should not die to 5 warpgate rush. Terran should not die to 5 warpgate rush. And if your warpgate rush doesn't work, we're slightly up, though not won yet! Of course lots of various things can happen, and your build isn't bad by any means. Note that on Tempest, since there are 3 possible places for you to spawn, we actually do a double early scout so we can find you in time to prepare against any such rushes. edit - working on the "average" maps now while watching GSL. Also noticed I left out Tempest in the map analysis. Wow, thanks a lot, you're actually the first to give a detailed solution that seems to work ! I will have to try this. I wonder what would happen though if protoss didn't engage your army with the initial 5 zealots but instead ran around the base harassing probes etc... while the zerg bites off the wall in. When the second wave of 5 zealots comes, its 10 zealots (maybe 9 if you killed one) vs your army, and the wall in is almost broken. I'll see, enough derailing of this thread :D Once again thanks for the quality posts, it's nice to read someone who knows what he is doing
Hmm... I wonder if scvs can repair protoss buildings.....
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Exceptional read. I knew everything that was in this post but it is always nice to read it again, it just makes a link in your brain when you read it.
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On December 02 2010 02:12 EtherealDeath wrote:
Really early pool = cannon + full wall in, 3 rax marine for terran. Not relying on gateway units, transition into them. Just have to position cannon so only one or two ranged units can hit them at a time from below.
So if u see like 2x 10 rax with teh lab and lets say 10 pool with gas u wall in with cannons ? Sounds quite good but what happen if terran instead of getting marauders will make reapers - 2-3 fast reapers would rape protos without units like no tomorrow.
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On December 02 2010 02:31 Jarlax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 02:12 EtherealDeath wrote:
Really early pool = cannon + full wall in, 3 rax marine for terran. Not relying on gateway units, transition into them. Just have to position cannon so only one or two ranged units can hit them at a time from below. So if u see like 2x 10 rax with teh lab and lets say 10 pool with gas u wall in with cannons ? Sounds quite good but what happen if terran instead of getting marauders will make reapers - 2-3 fast reapers would rape protos without units like no tomorrow.
Well if you let me see 2x 10 rax with tech lab in your base then I am not going to build cannons at all. Just going to chain chrono my gateway while teching to stalker, and have my ally mass marine. Should be fine dealing with it, every chrono is going to go to gateway.
It's just the threat of proxy rax mass marine that would lead me to build a cannon.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/4/46/Tempest.jpg/400px-Tempest.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/3/3f/Discord_IV.jpg/400px-Discord_IV.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/c/c2/High_Orbit.jpg/400px-High_Orbit.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/e/e4/Twilight_Fortress.jpg/400px-Twilight_Fortress.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/f/f6/War_Zone.jpg/400px-War_Zone.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/b/bb/Arid_Wastes.jpg/400px-Arid_Wastes.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/4/4d/Monlyth_Ridge.jpg/400px-Monlyth_Ridge.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/e/ed/Tarsonis_Assault.jpg/400px-Tarsonis_Assault.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/a/aa/Scorched_Haven.jpg/800px-Scorched_Haven.jpg)
