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On September 24 2012 11:11 Ponera wrote:
What would you propose as a reasonable starting point for "this substance can literally be anything in a universe that apparently doesn't follow physics properly"?
I never said it could be anything, I said that once you've eliminated any obvious biological materials you can think of, then try and find a material that does fit, which is what I was doing by suggesting the foam.
Anyway, I was doing some independent research and came across something that was quite interesting. So fungi can form things called appressorium, which they use to push against and eventually penetrate plant tissues. These things are capable of generating forces upwards of 8 megapascals [MPa] (for reference, the Earth's atmosphere is 0.101325 MPa). This force is more than enough to penetrate the ceramic plates used in bulletproof vests. Seeing as how Zerg biology is capable of handling stresses that would reduce normal biology to a bloody mess, it's not a stretch to imagine a Zerg equivalent capable of many times this. That would explain FG's ability to damage targets and even an apparent "growth" capability based on how the appressorium forums. Then after watching your video on Animals sci-fi can learn from I learned about the velvet worm, that the slime they spray, which you described as expanding in the atmosphere due to moisture, would certainly fit in well too as the component that holds the units in place to give the fungi time to deal damage. Also, it fits in with the limited time of effect for FG since the slime eventually dries out too much and becomes brittle, making it self-limited in terms of its ability to hold a target in place. Of course, all of the above need to be enhanced to Zerg levels of impossible biology.
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That is actually a really, really awesome suggestion. I will have to ask Az as to the specifics of that. Are you honestly telling me that I have spurred someone to do (GASP!) Independent learning?
:D You just made my night a lot better, you did a great job synthesizing that data. You are completely on to something with that- a little more research and I think you will have unlocked the secret of how fungal works! I stole that word for word and put it up on the thread on the bnet forum. I gave you full credit, of course, but feel free to step forward and claim your awesome idea:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6713581585?page=1#20
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On September 26 2012 12:23 Ponera wrote:
I actually have an extremely cool idea for how the lurker attacks. I will be definitely thinking outside the box on that one! Part of the fun of this for me is that, while I am bound to what I can see, what I can't see is something that I get to have fun with...and the lurker attack is as ambiguous as it gets!
I thought it was canon that they extended tentacles with spikes on them under the ground and "snapped" them like whips, forcing the wave attack motion?
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On September 26 2012 15:44 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 12:23 Ponera wrote:
I actually have an extremely cool idea for how the lurker attacks. I will be definitely thinking outside the box on that one! Part of the fun of this for me is that, while I am bound to what I can see, what I can't see is something that I get to have fun with...and the lurker attack is as ambiguous as it gets! I thought it was canon that they extended tentacles with spikes on them under the ground and "snapped" them like whips, forcing the wave attack motion?
Source? I would love to see it and how that might actually work!
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 26 2012 16:28 Ponera wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 15:44 iKill wrote:On September 26 2012 12:23 Ponera wrote:
I actually have an extremely cool idea for how the lurker attacks. I will be definitely thinking outside the box on that one! Part of the fun of this for me is that, while I am bound to what I can see, what I can't see is something that I get to have fun with...and the lurker attack is as ambiguous as it gets! I thought it was canon that they extended tentacles with spikes on them under the ground and "snapped" them like whips, forcing the wave attack motion? Source? I would love to see it and how that might actually work!
I don't think that would make sense though. Considering how large the spikes are (almost as large as a marine), the lurker's proposed tentacles would have to be quite large and muscular to perform a wave motion for those spines. Underground it becomes even more complicated to do this motion because of all the soil/rock/metal the tentacles would have to displace to perform the action. The lurker's body also doesn't look to have the kind of tentacles suggested (they'd be huge and obvious and I don't see any).
Edit: There are 6 spikes, each about 6 feet high and perhaps 2 feet in diameter. Assuming they are all perfect cones that's about 6.28 cubic feet per spike, multiplied by 6. That's 38 cubic feet of spikes. An average elephant's tusk is around 60kg (source: google) each, and we can probably assume a lurker's spike is slightly heavier as it is thicker, probably made of a similar material. Maybe 75kg or more per spike. That's almost 500lbs of spike to lift by the tentacle. Add the weight of the soil/rocks/metal that the tentacle would have to displace to move itself in a wave motion, and that's... really heavy. To be honest the lurker's attack makes little sense. :p
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On September 26 2012 16:42 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 16:28 Ponera wrote:On September 26 2012 15:44 iKill wrote:On September 26 2012 12:23 Ponera wrote:
I actually have an extremely cool idea for how the lurker attacks. I will be definitely thinking outside the box on that one! Part of the fun of this for me is that, while I am bound to what I can see, what I can't see is something that I get to have fun with...and the lurker attack is as ambiguous as it gets! I thought it was canon that they extended tentacles with spikes on them under the ground and "snapped" them like whips, forcing the wave attack motion? Source? I would love to see it and how that might actually work! I don't think that would make sense though. Considering how large the spikes are (almost as large as a marine), the lurker's proposed tentacles would have to be quite large and muscular to perform a wave motion for those spines. Underground it becomes even more complicated to do this motion because of all the soil/rock/metal the tentacles would have to displace to perform the action. The lurker's body also doesn't look to have the kind of tentacles suggested (they'd be huge and obvious and I don't see any). Edit: There are 6 spikes, each about 6 feet high and perhaps 2 feet in diameter. Assuming they are all perfect cones that's about 6.28 cubic feet per spike, multiplied by 6. That's 38 cubic feet of spikes. An average elephant's tusk is around 60kg (source: google) each, and we can probably assume a lurker's spike is slightly heavier as it is thicker, probably made of a similar material. Maybe 75kg or more per spike. That's almost 500lbs of spike to lift by the tentacle. Add the weight of the soil/rocks/metal that the tentacle would have to displace to move itself in a wave motion, and that's... really heavy. To be honest the lurker's attack makes little sense. :p
As I recall, zerg units burrow by basically "swimming" through the ground, so as for the effort it makes a bit more sense that way  They do this by vibrating millions of tiny muscles, according to ingame research, which basically breaks up the ground as they move. You're right it'd take a ton of muscle force though!
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what happens when they are up against bedrock?
SWIM THROUGH CANADIAN SHIELD lol
Edit: I will review these when it comes time for lurker, everyone throw down and lets make this happen...I might do lurker next, after we discuss it, as our first "community" write up! If you guys can legitimately discuss lurker anatomy without crying about balance, I would LOVE to tackle it with you all as references. I think I've already set a precedent for what a great contributor should do for this thread: contribute. It might take some research and effort so...
perhaps we should all discuss lurker anatomy! I really want this to be a community effort rather than a derp preaching about something he went to university for. :D
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 26 2012 17:11 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 16:42 lichter wrote:On September 26 2012 16:28 Ponera wrote:On September 26 2012 15:44 iKill wrote:On September 26 2012 12:23 Ponera wrote:
I actually have an extremely cool idea for how the lurker attacks. I will be definitely thinking outside the box on that one! Part of the fun of this for me is that, while I am bound to what I can see, what I can't see is something that I get to have fun with...and the lurker attack is as ambiguous as it gets! I thought it was canon that they extended tentacles with spikes on them under the ground and "snapped" them like whips, forcing the wave attack motion? Source? I would love to see it and how that might actually work! I don't think that would make sense though. Considering how large the spikes are (almost as large as a marine), the lurker's proposed tentacles would have to be quite large and muscular to perform a wave motion for those spines. Underground it becomes even more complicated to do this motion because of all the soil/rock/metal the tentacles would have to displace to perform the action. The lurker's body also doesn't look to have the kind of tentacles suggested (they'd be huge and obvious and I don't see any). Edit: There are 6 spikes, each about 6 feet high and perhaps 2 feet in diameter. Assuming they are all perfect cones that's about 6.28 cubic feet per spike, multiplied by 6. That's 38 cubic feet of spikes. An average elephant's tusk is around 60kg (source: google) each, and we can probably assume a lurker's spike is slightly heavier as it is thicker, probably made of a similar material. Maybe 75kg or more per spike. That's almost 500lbs of spike to lift by the tentacle. Add the weight of the soil/rocks/metal that the tentacle would have to displace to move itself in a wave motion, and that's... really heavy. To be honest the lurker's attack makes little sense. :p As I recall, zerg units burrow by basically "swimming" through the ground, so as for the effort it makes a bit more sense that way They do this by vibrating millions of tiny muscles, according to ingame research, which basically breaks up the ground as they move. You're right it'd take a ton of muscle force though!
That would solve getting the tentacle in position. But assuming the spikes don't have those vibrating muscles, getting them in place would still be an incredible burden. I can't imagine how the lurker would even do that, unless the spikes are somehow retractable or collapsible, and the tentacles would get in place before the spikes come out. The spikes would then have to be more hollow (so it can collapse in on itself and pop-up with a muscle or something) or more flexible (along the base of the spike) and thinner (to be retractable along the tentacle). The first option is probably not great, because the spike would not be hard enough to pierce or bludgeon armored units. I suppose a workaround could be that the spike fills with a semi-liquid (creep??) when extended to make it harder. The second option might work better, but the tentacle would have to be even stronger to ensure the spikes don't bend at the retracting hinge when hitting hard objects, but would lose its ability to bludgeon.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 26 2012 17:13 Ponera wrote:
perhaps we should all discuss lurker anatomy! I really want this to be a community effort rather than a derp preaching about something he went to university for. :D
Don't be so modest. I usually skip reading all of the posts in this thread and only read yours, since you know a bit more about what you're talking about than the average poster. :p
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On September 26 2012 17:28 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 17:13 Ponera wrote:
perhaps we should all discuss lurker anatomy! I really want this to be a community effort rather than a derp preaching about something he went to university for. :D Don't be so modest. I usually skip reading all of the posts in this thread and only read yours, since you know a bit more about what you're talking about than the average poster. :p
To be fair, I am the most modest person on the planet.
I kind of think it would be fun for people to make observations on the lurker, how it moves, how it attacks, how it ~loves~ and then I can synthesize it and learn myself.
Or better yet, I'd actually love to have some people get the chance to ask me questions about anything relevant to what I do best on skype! It would be really a cool experience for me to talk to you all and answer questions about zerg or any of my adventures! I love interaction, I'd even love someone organizing a live "lets catch him off guard live on skype" with some thoughtful contributors. I am really loving this as a tool for educating, it's really engaging!
If anyone wants to organize this, by all means do it behind my back or in front of my back (wait...)
As always, I am available (and fresh of the helicopter, this time!) to throw down!! :D My new fungal friend has me so energized about this it's stupid, I think my F5 Key will break.
In defense of this post, I will submit to you: would have read that amazing reply to me if I hadn't pointed it out? Praise is fast to wane, but people who want to engage will actually try! :D
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I am rather curious as to what you do Ponera; story time is always a good time ^^
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I have been reading this thread for the past hour or so. I study Biology at Uni and have just done a lot of work about Evolutionary Biology, so I can see where a lot of your ideas are coming from.
Going back to your ideas on the Drone: I see the Drone as the Stem Cells of the Zerg. They have the capabilities to become any other cell (or structure) but will not begin this transformation until a certain signal (in real stem cells these signals are still unclear and much researched, in Zerg these signals would be player actions  ) is received.
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On September 27 2012 07:44 Ponera wrote:
I'm a paleontologist.
oooh,
What is your favorite pre-historic organism?
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I must say as someone who studies biology this is awsome .
I for once would like to see how you explain the broodlord and its ability to produce broodings so fast also its ability to fly consider it doesnt seems to work on hot gas? maybe it using thermal columns, like big birds do? this would make them not work on night maps :D sounds fair to me
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If you guys want, later on tonight, I will be availble on skype to answer your questions (I will record it and chuck it up on youtube.) Ask me anything you want about biology or the zerg, or any alien for that matter.
:D
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Leave a message here to sign up! Forgot that part.
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Okay! I am looking to reschedule this event, let me know via PM or post here if you want to be included!
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I'm still waiting for you do an episode on the Protoss TT
Awesome so far though.
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EPT
