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On April 21 2012 15:17 slOosh wrote:
Haven't had a chance to properly read the thread yet, but what's to say scum won't just shoot the vigs?
Then let them, vigs are a hindrance this game and we'd be better without them.
Of course, we'd be better with them being killed at night (where they will flip GF and we will know 100% they are vigs) and not by lynching them at day (where we won't know whether they were vigs or GFs).
I'm waiting for your other thoughts sloosh
Oh, another thing:
If we ever kill a Goon, and it's confirmed that there are at least 2 JKs, then they should claim and medic each other each night to make us win 100%.
That can happen if:
-No vigs claim, AND only 1 tracker claims after all trackers are told to claim (for instance).
-Or none of them claim or something.
And of course if scum don't cc, but in that case there will be 1 more claim than usual who will be confirmed scum.
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I'm done talking about claiming plans. Anyone who has a role is free to speculate however they choose. You're giving scum all the information they need.
I've made my opinion known. I feel like it town wants to adopt this ridiculous claim plan, then JKs and Trackers are going to be forced to participate. I wouldn't advocate participating in the plan in the first place.
Anyway, my vote on gonzaw stands - especially now that he thinks I'm scum because I disagree with a mass-claim plan. Unbelievable.
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Here's my take on the whole vig claiming issue. I think it's a bad idea for a vig to shoot without claiming. The problem for me is that if vigs don't claim and get lynched, we won't really have any idea that the GF flip wasn't true, which would cause confusion. The only solution is for them to claim ahead of time.
However, I'm not ok with just a mass claim on N1 like Gonzaw has suggested, as that could lead to scum just shooting the vigs before they can shoot, taking away a valuable asset to the town.
What I would suggest is that on N1, vigs claim AND fire, shooting into any lurkers we have. If mafia want to fake-claim, then what this policy would force them to do is use a night kill on a lurker instead of an active town, which would actually help the town weed out lurkers, and make it harder on scum to hide, and save an active town member. Therefore it's less likely that a fake-claim will occur (WIFOM I know, but I still think it's logical) It will also get all the vig shots out of the way so scum can't claim vig later on.
The problem with this is that in a way it's a waste of the town's resources by aiming at lurkers and not directly at scum. I still think that minimizing the confusion caused if vigs flip is at least potentially worth something, though. The other problem is that we may not HAVE any lurkers, in which case we'd need to try something else. What that would be I'm not sure, but this plan WILL NOT work without obvious lurkers to shoot, since one of it's major advantages is making it less likely that scum will claim.
Any thoughts/comments? Think this is a good idea? Tell me why. Same for if you think it's a terrible plan.
I'll be going to bed in a minute, I'll be back tomorrow.
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On April 21 2012 15:50 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm done talking about claiming plans. Anyone who has a role is free to speculate however they choose. You're giving scum all the information they need.
I've made my opinion known. I feel like it town wants to adopt this ridiculous claim plan, then JKs and Trackers are going to be forced to participate. I wouldn't advocate participating in the plan in the first place.
Anyway, my vote on gonzaw stands - especially now that he thinks I'm scum because I disagree with a mass-claim plan. Unbelievable.
Okay, so you are going to ignore my case against you then?
I already said that you disagreeing with my plan was totally expected of you. What was not expected of you was::
-Discrediting my plan based on a stupid "You can't assume the JKs will cooperate" point
-You contradicting yourself by actually saying that you would want the JKs to cooperate.
Anyways, it seems you didn't pressure me like others said (it was obvious you didn't just "pressure" me though, just reading your filter makes it apparent) and will stick to your "gonzaw scumslipped" version.
Also, you seem to ignore everything else as well. We were discussing Paqman's behaviour, and Matt's suspicious behaviour too (for instance). That discussion wasn't about "claiming plans", so why didn't you feel like discussing it?
To Janaan:
On April 21 2012 15:52 Janaan wrote:
Here's my take on the whole vig claiming issue. I think it's a bad idea for a vig to shoot without claiming. The problem for me is that if vigs don't claim and get lynched, we won't really have any idea that the GF flip wasn't true, which would cause confusion. The only solution is for them to claim ahead of time.
However, I'm not ok with just a mass claim on N1 like Gonzaw has suggested, as that could lead to scum just shooting the vigs before they can shoot, taking away a valuable asset to the town.
What I would suggest is that on N1, vigs claim AND fire, shooting into any lurkers we have. If mafia want to fake-claim, then what this policy would force them to do is use a night kill on a lurker instead of an active town, which would actually help the town weed out lurkers, and make it harder on scum to hide, and save an active town member. Therefore it's less likely that a fake-claim will occur (WIFOM I know, but I still think it's logical) It will also get all the vig shots out of the way so scum can't claim vig later on.
The problem with this is that in a way it's a waste of the town's resources by aiming at lurkers and not directly at scum. I still think that minimizing the confusion caused if vigs flip is at least potentially worth something, though. The other problem is that we may not HAVE any lurkers, in which case we'd need to try something else. What that would be I'm not sure, but this plan WILL NOT work without obvious lurkers to shoot, since one of it's major advantages is making it less likely that scum will claim.
Any thoughts/comments? Think this is a good idea? Tell me why. Same for if you think it's a terrible plan.
I'll be going to bed in a minute, I'll be back tomorrow.
I like it that you are trying to bring new ideas to the table (so I guess this is not a "very bad 1st post" from yours  )
Okay, answer me these questions then:
1)What happens if we lynch a GF (someone flips GF) on D1 then? (in your plan vigs claim in N1)
2)If all vigs shoot "lurkers" on N1, what happens if there are 3 vigs and the 3 lurkers are town? What happens if there is a KP unaccounted for? What happens if town wanted someone else dead, and some people actually thought a targeted lurker was town or had better candidates in mind?
3)Why would you want to protect vigs? They are Millers who flip GF upon death and can't actually shoot GFs. Why would you NOT want scum to shoot them on N1? How are they a "valuable asset" in this case?
4)Who decides who shoots who? Remember this from the OP:
Two Vigilantes shooting the same target use both their bullets.
2 or more vigs can shoot the same guy, which leads me to the next point:
5)What happens if a scum claims vig "after" someone else claimed vig and he claims he targeted a "lurker" that another vig targeted? Would you believe they are 2 vigs that were lucky enough to target the same player, or that one is a vig and the other one a scum that just chose to "hide" behind the other vig so he didn't have to waste the Goon's KP?
Final question:
What do you think about VE, his "case" and my case against him? And what about other players that have been the focus of attention lately?
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Don't worry guys I'm here to save you~ reading up on thread now. Only had like 3 beers so I'm basically set for some mad analyzing. "Ohs hit BlazinghandJitsu what are you gonna do" I'm gonna read the threadand rheumatically shit on all the scum scumming up this game"why rheumatically" well i was trying to write something else and the spellcheck changed it to that.
Maybe this is best expressed in terms of an audio-visual medium for you'
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5kSNwYUx5o
Q: oh shit BlazingJitsu that was the raddest shit I've ever seen in my life
A: yeah thanks xsplit can be a bitch but I got it up
Q:" so why did you do that ifrst instead of reading the thread
;_; cmon dude yit was worth like the 10 minutes. I'm reading the thread now ok
Q: so would the shortening for BlazingJitsu be BJ?
A: Well yeah. Alphabetical order and all that! Just refer to me as BJ unless you're addressing one head specifically. All our posts will be signed by the writer.
Q: ISn't that kind dirty'
A: dude it's a coincicdence shut up
[b]Q: ok so is the video a metphaor or something[b/]
A I'm just reading the thread now and wanted to post something. But yeah feel free to address me, BJ, if you have any questions while I catch up. I will only respond to questions addressed to "BJ" or "BH", but as USUAL I PREFER BJS SO PLEASE CALL ME BJ
kekekekkeke
seriously though if you gots a question just ask. I'm reading atm
hehe bj
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On April 21 2012 09:08 BlazingJitsu wrote:
Pssh, I disregard anything that guy says. My lesser head is a jerk.
~Jitsu
AT LEAST I'M NHOT HITTING MYSELF LIKE A MORON
+ Show Spoiler [HITSU IS HITTING HIMSELF] +
STOP HITTING YOURSELF JITSU?? WHY ARE YOU HITTING YOURSELF!! STOP HITTING YOURSELF
Also, ok you guys know krillin from DBZ right? (also from dragon ball) well I got a question for you
Why isn't krillin killing everything?+ Show Spoiler + we know for sure that his destructo-disk can cut ANYTHING. It can't be blocked. you see it cut through mountains, planets, etc. Now, it isn't the fastest attack-- in fact it uses most of his energy and is fairly slow. Typically what happens is Krillin is getting his ass kicked by some bad guy then he's like "ok i'm using destructo disk" and the bad guy is generall some Muscle (not the head honcho) and is like "pshaw I can c atch whatever you throw" and krillin is like "ok catch this" and then the bad guy is getting all ready to BLOCK the unblockable attack-- cause it's a secret attack and he doesn't know it'll kill him. But then the boss is like "NO DONT BLOCK IT, DODGE IT!" and then he dodges it and it cuts through a mountain behind him or something and they're like "oh shot Krillin isn't useless" except he IS because he just used his one attack, and he's out of energy and it wouldn't work a second time anyways.
Now, this all seems pretty reasonable but there are a few problems that immediately become apparent with even the slightest application of critical thought.
ONE: how is Krillin the only guy who ever uses this ability? it's not like it's something only he should be capable of doing right? Like he's just a regular human. Goku should learn it or something. Or maybe it's something secret or only unique to Krillin right? But this segways into
TWO: Seriously, how is Krillin the only guy who uses destructodisks? Clearly bad guys are like "oh we shoudl dodge this instead of blocking it" so they've SEEN it before. It's the only attack that CANT be blocked. Even Goku's episodes-long-charging spirit bomb can be blocked, but NOT THE DESTRUCTODISK. Like, how can you recognize this attack if you haven't seen it before?
"Oh but Blazinghandl clearly it moves too slow, they just dodge it, etc"
NO YOU'RE SO WRONG look ok so Krillin's other thing he does a lot is "Solar Flare" right? Basically when shit goes bad (As it always does for Krillin cause he's a weakling) he uses this Solar Flare, and it briefly stuns his opponent (for like 20ish seconds) and Krillin uses this opportunity to escape. He teaches it to his bros Goku and Gohan (who apparently can learn this even though they can't learn destructodisk). bUT THE MAIN POINT is that he has this ability. But, if you think about it, an ability that uses no spirit energy stuns your opponent for a moderate amoutn of time is the most advantageous technique you could possibly know if you use Destructodisk. Whenever Krillin stuns the main victim to get away, he should just fucking cut the guy in half with a destructodisk while the guy spends like 30 seconds clutching his eyeballs.
Literally every person in DBZ except Piccolo (and Cell who has Piccolo's regenerative ability) could be defeated in like 10 seconds by Krillin in this fashion. In fact, almost every person in DBZ gets solar-flared by him (or hell, a friend of his when he's nearby) at some point! Krillin could be the strongest guy!
But no, NO that would make WAY TOO MUCH SENSE
-BlAzinghand, the manly head
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On April 21 2012 11:21 VisceraEyes wrote:
And for the record, that's a REAL scumslip guys. He said "our plan", because he's just the messenger and he came up with it with someone else. My guess? MidnightGladius due to the fervor of his defense of the plan.
But that's speculation we can save for after gonzaw's flip. In the meantime, VOTES ON GONZAW!!! FOR THE TOWN!!!
Voting based on "scumslips" is dumb. I've seen enough townies "scumslip" in my day to say that it takes more than this to make a vote. Or are you gonna start bringing up terrorist tactics to strongarm people onto your wagon?
Regarding vigis:On April 21 2012 13:23 PaqMan wrote:
Trying to control them and tell them where to aim is going to be chaos.
This sentence is bad and I am an objectively worse person for having to have read it. When N1 starts I will publish a brief list of people I think vigis should shoot at, and they will be wise to pay attention to it. Trying not to utilize our blue roles in the most useful possible fashion is bad. Don't be bad.
-Blazinghand
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As a side note to gonzaw: I oppose massclaim as a matter of policy. My other head may not agree with me on this, but personally I am largely dismayed by mass claim. I've lived with uncertainty before, and I will reject any horrid mass roleclaim strat. Also, your new post formatting is quite legible! Much improved from our previous games.
By what inconceivable depravity of judgement do you think we'll have issues with GF flips if we don't have some sort of mass vigi roleclaim? Vigis should just shoot scum, and if their shot is blocked, it was probably a GF, and then they think of themselves as a one-shot DT-- push the guy in the thread. EZ.
-Blazinghand
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Marvellosity. Let me talk to you. No correction let me talk AT you.
what are you doing this game? Let's look at your filter
+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 09:05 marvellosity wrote:Mattchew, I thought we were gonna have a long, happy, and romp-filled relationship, then you make me click on multiple spoilers. On April 21 2012 10:23 marvellosity wrote:
I've tried to think of a bunch of different scenarios and I've not yet managed to picture one where mafia couldn't claim the same situation. The only way a vigi really clears himself is by shooting scum :/ On April 21 2012 10:33 marvellosity wrote:
Holy gonzaw post. Nice
^--- These posts are short and worthless.
On April 21 2012 10:04 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 09:58 Mementoss wrote:
I agree with johnnywup I dont think this is productive or the time to talk about this hypothetical stuff. For all we know there is no vigs or trackers. Ya never know, could be 3 jailkeepers. You can't assume which roles are in the game. What? The vigilante-godfather-miller-weirdthing is the only strange mechanic in the game. Before things get properly rolling is absolutely the right time to talk about its implications.
^--- this post is actually correct, but interestingly, despite the fact that it's the right time to talk about the game mechanics... you never talk about the game mechanics. You ask some unhelpful questions and echo worthless obvious shit other people have said, but otherwise you're deadweight.
Where's your contributions, Marv? Where's the discussion that it is "absolute the right time" to talk about? or do you only have inane questions?
On April 21 2012 10:29 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 10:25 VisceraEyes wrote:On April 21 2012 10:23 marvellosity wrote:
I've tried to think of a bunch of different scenarios and I've not yet managed to picture one where mafia couldn't claim the same situation. The only way a vigi really clears himself is by shooting scum :/ Actually, a vigi only really clears himself by shooting a GOON. Hitting a GF will result in WIFOM about what happened to his shot (GFs are night-kill immune). Right, so scum could claim their shot was blocked on some random townie and WIFOM it up. Gotcha. So, are there in fact any GOOD circumstances to make a vig shot?
^=== HOLY SHIT this question is bad. holy shit. Of course there's good circumstances to make a vig shot! SHOOT A SCUM GUY. Christ. Even if you shoot a godfather, at least that's a data point (not quite a DT check's worth, because it might hasve been roleblock), and if you shoot a goon, hey, you shot a goon.
Are you TRYING to be as unhelpful as possible? Are you TRYING to actively inhibit our blue roles? Surely if so it's through neither quality of prose nor persistence in communicating the ideas contained therein with your miniscule cumuluative post length.
Typically this is where I say "you can do better, marv" but really, ANYONE could do better. You're shitting on the town and trying to build up a post count without saying ANYTHING.
You're lurking in plain sight.
##vote: marvellosity.
-Blazinghand
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@Marvellosity: Come at me bro.
-Blazinghand
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"But BlazingJitsu, Marv's posts don't seem that bad"
Bros. BROS. he's been in this thread for like an hour and 30 minutes and all he does is contribute WORTHLESS DRIVEL? Even the mildest of useful contributions seems to escape Marv's all-pervasive utter unhelpfulness. Just look at the posts he makes for an hour and a half period and think to yourself "would anyone, as a town player, be this unhelpful?" is that even literaly possible? no. Marv is scum and he will hang like scum.
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EBWOP: That previous post above was written by me, Blazinghand. It seems I've accidentally tripped up TL's Flood Control so I'm gonna head to bed. See yall on the flip side.
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I can't believe you all missed this opportunity!
On April 21 2012 11:33 PaqMan wrote:
^Meaning it's impossible to have more than 3 vigs
![[image loading]](http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/255/716/c98.gif)
Isn't it strange that both VE and gonzaw try to argue that we should/shouldn't do something because a town blue might decide to do the most anti-town move possible?
On April 21 2012 11:05 gonzaw wrote:+ Show Spoiler [snip] +Okay, one more thing and I'll stop posting now (just want to get everything out in the open as soon as possible) On April 21 2012 10:55 johnnywup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 10:49 PaqMan wrote:
I like Gonzaw's idea of the vig's claiming. Only problem with that is that Scum will have a list of vig's and won't have to do any sniping..
So now that I think about it, I don't really like that idea at all lol.
Town can't keep assuming things this game. It'll make an ass out of u and me. We don't know how many of what roles there are and continuous speculation isn't going to help at all. it's actually in scums best interest to keep millervigs alive, as they create so much confusion which is usually scums job. All scum would have to do is make sure the vigs are on the wrong track. So because of this VE's plan of killing all vig's isn't a bad idea. But no vig's would ever claim under it. I think the best course of action is lynching any vig claims the day after, if they miss their shot. Scum wouldn't ever claim if we make a rule out of that. Also this isn't continuous speculation, this is discussing the game. Don't like it? Too bad. It's not like we can avoid this topic. It's important to the game so we talk about it. VE's plan is to kill all claimed vigs. This means that no real vig will claim, and no scum will fake-claim either. So what happens if we lynch someone and he flips GF then? What info would you get in that case? He could be either vig or GF and we don't know since no vig or GF would have claimed (since they would have been instantly lynched). Imagine it's LYLO, we are trying to lynch someone, and he claims vig. What do we do? Do we follow the "lynch all vigs" rule too? But if he is indeed vig we would lose, so what to do? + Show Spoiler [snip] +If we follow our plan, we will know beforehand that there are certain players whose flip won't tell us anything (the claimed vigs, assuming no Goons claim). We will know what to do with that, we can prepare. We can also use other claimed vigs to try and shoot him at night instead.
The most important thing is that if vigs claim beforehand, there will be less chaos than if they claimed right before getting lynched, or they were lynched and flipped GF
And remember, if there's chaos scum can do whatever the hell they want. If someone claims vig right before being lynched the chaos created basically gives scum the reins to do what they want (either lynch that vig, or lynch someone else, or NL, etc)
This is gonzaw playing on your fears in the hopes that you lack basic critical thinking skills. iI we decide to lynch all vigilante claims then any vigilante capable of using a keyboard should be smart enough to know that they should not claim because doing so would automatically result in their death and a loss. + Show Spoiler [This bit doesn't read well] +He is also arguing that we would be in trouble if a fairly unlikely hypothetical occurs and then somebody does something extremely unlikely. The result is him arguing that we should act based upon something that should never happen and is highly unlikely to happen anyway.
+VE's post was mostly arguing that a town jailkeeper might intentionally act against town's interests.
Both of these players should realise that these arguments should have no place here.
I don't know if anybody has mentioned it but mafia shots resolve before vig shots so mafia could kill the vig and stop the shot.
Vigilante shoots after the Goon
I think the best strategy should be that vigilantes only claim if their shot does not go through or if they have just shot a goon. Otherwise no claims. This mean that the only potential confusion arises if they are lynched* but we can deal with that. + Show Spoiler [*] +if they are shot at night and flip they are obviously not bulletproof godfathers
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lay
Gonzaw's plan is to out our vigs in exchange for no fakeclaims. We already discussed why scum shouldnt in their right mind fake-claim if we do it his way.
I think this trade can be well worth it, what do you think?
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On April 21 2012 21:40 Ottoxlol wrote:
lay
Gonzaw's plan is to out our vigs in exchange for no fakeclaims. We already discussed why scum shouldnt in their right mind fake-claim if we do it his way.
I think this trade can be well worth it, what do you think?
My way produces nearly the same benefit but without all of the risks.
I say nearly because mafia could claim that they were a vig that hit a godfather.
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So basically your way doesnt produce the same benefit, without all of the risks :D
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On April 21 2012 22:01 Ottoxlol wrote:
So basically your way doesnt produce the same benefit, without all of the risks :D
Yes.
Which makes it better.
But if we decide if vigilante's should claim and when then we close down options for scum. If we agree that there should be no claims at all then that should also eliminate fake claims but it would also have none of the risks. I am saying that if you shoot a goon then you might as well claim. Claiming would confirm yourself (with no counter claim). With more than 1 claim it would then become more complicated, as we would likely lynch both players. In the unlikely even that there are two vigilantes in the game who both shoot the same target who then flips goon then it would present us with "trouble".
I think that we need to agree to no claims or specific situations for claims like if you just shot a goon.
Consider also that if 1 or more vigilantes out themselves then we will all know that one of the blues isn't a tracker or a jailkeeper. That information could help scum but it is of no use to vt's.
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Guys I was thinking about this before I slept last night. I just woke up with the MEMENTOSS WAY Im still half asleep so maybe its really stupid. But I know some people have trouble reading so I'll use numbers and shit.
1. Vigilantes do not claim.
2. Vigilantes do not shoot.
That is until....
3. Vigilantes CAN shoot after 2 GF's drop.
But Mementoss this is a WASTE OF TOWNS BLUES. You know what no, vigilantes rarely ever hit. And in this case if they do hit they have a 50% chance it doesnt go through and we have no way of telling if they are lieing or not. So fuck that. The best case scenario for us is mafia killing our vigilantes by mistake at night. That stops all confusion of the mechanic. So vigilantes, play like Vets, you wanna soak up night hits.
Also butttt Mementosss this might be super duper late in the game. I don't care. THIS game is about killing the goons. GF kills can't be seen as helpful till late game when they are super confirmed, or if they are killed at night in which case they were a vig. Killing 1 goon is confirmed and halfs the mafia KP. Killing 2 goons, allows us to just chill with no night kills for mafia. Im confident we can win with 0 mafia KP.
4. After 2 GF's drop Vigs can start shooting (yay) But, claim your shots before you shoot them. This means, all Jailkeepers stay AWAY from the fucking targets. Vigs this means there is very little reason your KP shouldn't be apparent at the night.
The only way the night KP doesn't go through is this. There are 2 vigs, or more. 1 GF is dead 1 Vig is dead. Vig shoots a GF. The probability of this situation seems very low imo. And even so in this case, we kill the claimer first then we kill the claimed shot. Worst case we go 1 for 1. Also if we are lucky mafia shoots a vig, which means a GF pops at night, in this case we wait till 3 GFs drop to shoot and claim.
Vigs shots usually are only useful at killing lurkers, but they drop town numbers quick. With this fucked up mechanic I don't mind them not blowing there load early and saving for late game, where we have a lot better chance to kill goons.
TLDR;
-Vigs dont claim dont shoot until 2 GF's flip. (special circumstances 3)
-Vigs play like vets
-Vigs hurt town more then they help early game
-GF's aren't the droids were looking for GOONS are the key to winning as town
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Also I am going to eat and play LoL will comment on all not mechanic based activity later.
Mattchew paqman case
Marvellousity case
VE vs Gonzaw case
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xkueH.png)
