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On April 21 2012 12:23 gonzaw wrote:WARNING, Big Post coming up, be sure to read all of it, or at least the end and the part between the red asterisks:To VE:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 11:04 VisceraEyes wrote:
Scum start off with an information advantage. Any plan that involves giving information to scum (like, who all the vigs in the game are) is a net loss for town 100% of the time. I'll address your points individually, for ease of comprehension. Scum already have the info of who is town and who is scum. Like someone else already stated, if we lynch a vig, he will flip GF, and we won't know if he's vig or GF, but scum will. Also, you missed this post of mine: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=10#187This plan isn't about "giving scum information", it's about: -Coordinating vig shots at night (if there are in this game) -Avoiding the chaos regarding the "Flips GF" Miller mechanic from vigs -Force scum to take action and claim or not. -Based on the logical statements concluded from actions and claims, use it to aid scumhunting and determining the alignment of players and their actions.
I don't understand that one part. How does this force scum to claim? Why would they lie in the first place and claim vigi?
It seems smarter to just act as a normal town and avoid the attention that the vigi would get.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 10:18 PaqMan wrote:
So what's the plan? just stupid question without content when theres already stuff being discussed, isnt paying attention to where threads going On April 21 2012 10:49 PaqMan wrote:
I like Gonzaw's idea of the vig's claiming. Only problem with that is that Scum will have a list of vig's and won't have to do any sniping..
So now that I think about it, I don't really like that idea at all lol.
Town can't keep assuming things this game. It'll make an ass out of u and me. We don't know how many of what roles there are and continuous speculation isn't going to help at all. Agrees, disagrees, then says it's not even worth talking about + Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 11:30 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 11:16 MidnightGladius wrote:
If we all agree for all vigs to claim, then this is what happens:
0 vig claims: There are no vigs. Simple enough.
1 vig claim: There is either 1 vig, or a scum faking the claim. We have the vig claim their shot. If the shot hits, and we have a tracker, we can keep tracking the vig claim, meaning that a fakeclaiming scum would never be able to shoot until the tracker died. If the shot doesn't hit, and the jailkeepers know not to jail the vig's target, then we have confirmed scum between the vig and the target. In this case, as long as the mafia team doesn't know the real role distribution, they can't risk fake-claiming. This is good for town.
2-3 vig claims: There are 0-3 vigs, and either no scum faking claims, or some number of them. Each vig claims and shoots a different target during Night 1. Day 2, we sort them into two groups based on whether or not their shots hit. If the shot hit, we set it aside, and we focus on the group whose shots didn't hit. For each such vig, either that player has no KP (therefore GF), or their target was a GF. We lynch both of them. Either they flip GF and townie (case 1) or GF and GF (case 2). In case 1, great, we can do normal analysis on the flipped GF. In case 2, we have to be a bit more careful, but it's still a 1-for-1 trade. If all of the shots hit, then we know that there are no actual GFs fakeclaiming, and any lynched non-vig-claim flipping GF is an actual GF.
4+ vig claims: There are 0-3 vigs, and some number of scum faking claims. We use the same plan as in the above case. However, if all of the shots hit, then in addition to there being no GFs in the group, we know that there are one or more goons among the group, which is awesome.
This is all assuming, of course, that any JKs follow the plan by not jailing any of the vig claims or their targets, but I think that that should be doable.
Additionally, scum have no incentive to shoot vig claims, because a night-killed "Godfather" can only be a vig, making it a lot easier for us to figure out lynched players flipping GF.
Gonzaw's points about preventing chaos during later vig claims/GF lynches is also quite valid. VE, I don't see what you don't like about the plan. There's only 3 blue roles. doesn't even read the posts he's talking about, (RTFT) On April 21 2012 11:43 PaqMan wrote:
Woops, I'm sorry! Scarface is on tv and I'm trying to multitask. It isn't working out obviously, so I'll be back in about three hours. excuses to stay away from thread, scarface is less than 3 hours so trying to get more time away than the movie provides On April 21 2012 11:49 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 11:34 VisceraEyes wrote:Paq he's talking about if there are more than 3 CLAIMS. If there are more than three CLAIMS then there's guaranteed to be a liar in the bunch, which is what he's saying. Now go be a good lad and vote for gonzaw.  I'm not convinced that he made a scum slip. When he said "our" he could have been referring to whoever agreed with his points. I want to see what Gonzaw has to say about your accusation. unwilling to take a stance despite responding to it, basically just says "wait for gonzaw to respond to it" On April 21 2012 12:01 PaqMan wrote:
But I do agree with you VE. Giving scum any more info puts them in an even greater advantage over us. A mass vig claim would be the same as handing them a hit list.
some of gonzaw's points however are pretty valid (no late-game chaos with vig claiming before lynch, etc etc).
Either way, I can't see a vig following either one of y'alls policies.
He claims, town lynches him and nothing is gained.
He claims, chance of mafia taking him out or keeps him alive, either way there's chaos.
I suggest that our vigilante (if we have one) doesn't claim at all. If he's about to be lynched then he needs to defend himself as a normal townie because claiming vig is going to create a shitstorm for us, which gives scum the upper hand.
If he's going to use his kp one someone, he doesn't need to claim before or after the kill. It's going to create too much confusion and WIFOM and finger-pointing and shit.
So I think that vigilantes should not make any claims this game.
like you said, only argues for something that has already gained traction.
individually all these aren't that scummy but together it looks super scummy
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IMPORTANT NOTICE:
I've already explained all about the plan.
All these "criticisms" by johnny, Paqman, etc have already been addressed, so if you want to check them out please just reread my filter.
For instance, this:
On April 21 2012 13:24 PaqMan wrote:
It's a bunch of what-if's and WIFOM that is getting us NO WHERE
It's already been addressed properly, so PaqMan please reread my posts.
So I'd like not to waste time arguing about it ad nauseaum while going nowhere.
So vigs, please reread it, analyse it, and make the right choice by claiming right now, or at least way before the lynch (specially if you are a lynch candidate).
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On April 21 2012 13:30 johnnywup wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 10:18 PaqMan wrote:
So what's the plan? just stupid question without content when theres already stuff being discussed, isnt paying attention to where threads going On April 21 2012 10:49 PaqMan wrote:
I like Gonzaw's idea of the vig's claiming. Only problem with that is that Scum will have a list of vig's and won't have to do any sniping..
So now that I think about it, I don't really like that idea at all lol.
Town can't keep assuming things this game. It'll make an ass out of u and me. We don't know how many of what roles there are and continuous speculation isn't going to help at all. Agrees, disagrees, then says it's not even worth talking about + Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 11:30 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 11:16 MidnightGladius wrote:
If we all agree for all vigs to claim, then this is what happens:
0 vig claims: There are no vigs. Simple enough.
1 vig claim: There is either 1 vig, or a scum faking the claim. We have the vig claim their shot. If the shot hits, and we have a tracker, we can keep tracking the vig claim, meaning that a fakeclaiming scum would never be able to shoot until the tracker died. If the shot doesn't hit, and the jailkeepers know not to jail the vig's target, then we have confirmed scum between the vig and the target. In this case, as long as the mafia team doesn't know the real role distribution, they can't risk fake-claiming. This is good for town.
2-3 vig claims: There are 0-3 vigs, and either no scum faking claims, or some number of them. Each vig claims and shoots a different target during Night 1. Day 2, we sort them into two groups based on whether or not their shots hit. If the shot hit, we set it aside, and we focus on the group whose shots didn't hit. For each such vig, either that player has no KP (therefore GF), or their target was a GF. We lynch both of them. Either they flip GF and townie (case 1) or GF and GF (case 2). In case 1, great, we can do normal analysis on the flipped GF. In case 2, we have to be a bit more careful, but it's still a 1-for-1 trade. If all of the shots hit, then we know that there are no actual GFs fakeclaiming, and any lynched non-vig-claim flipping GF is an actual GF.
4+ vig claims: There are 0-3 vigs, and some number of scum faking claims. We use the same plan as in the above case. However, if all of the shots hit, then in addition to there being no GFs in the group, we know that there are one or more goons among the group, which is awesome.
This is all assuming, of course, that any JKs follow the plan by not jailing any of the vig claims or their targets, but I think that that should be doable.
Additionally, scum have no incentive to shoot vig claims, because a night-killed "Godfather" can only be a vig, making it a lot easier for us to figure out lynched players flipping GF.
Gonzaw's points about preventing chaos during later vig claims/GF lynches is also quite valid. VE, I don't see what you don't like about the plan. There's only 3 blue roles. doesn't even read the posts he's talking about, (RTFT) On April 21 2012 11:43 PaqMan wrote:
Woops, I'm sorry! Scarface is on tv and I'm trying to multitask. It isn't working out obviously, so I'll be back in about three hours. excuses to stay away from thread, scarface is less than 3 hours so trying to get more time away than the movie provides On April 21 2012 11:49 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 11:34 VisceraEyes wrote:Paq he's talking about if there are more than 3 CLAIMS. If there are more than three CLAIMS then there's guaranteed to be a liar in the bunch, which is what he's saying. Now go be a good lad and vote for gonzaw. I'm not convinced that he made a scum slip. When he said "our" he could have been referring to whoever agreed with his points. I want to see what Gonzaw has to say about your accusation. unwilling to take a stance despite responding to it, basically just says "wait for gonzaw to respond to it" On April 21 2012 12:01 PaqMan wrote:
But I do agree with you VE. Giving scum any more info puts them in an even greater advantage over us. A mass vig claim would be the same as handing them a hit list.
some of gonzaw's points however are pretty valid (no late-game chaos with vig claiming before lynch, etc etc).
Either way, I can't see a vig following either one of y'alls policies.
He claims, town lynches him and nothing is gained.
He claims, chance of mafia taking him out or keeps him alive, either way there's chaos.
I suggest that our vigilante (if we have one) doesn't claim at all. If he's about to be lynched then he needs to defend himself as a normal townie because claiming vig is going to create a shitstorm for us, which gives scum the upper hand.
If he's going to use his kp one someone, he doesn't need to claim before or after the kill. It's going to create too much confusion and WIFOM and finger-pointing and shit.
So I think that vigilantes should not make any claims this game.
like you said, only argues for something that has already gained traction.
individually all these aren't that scummy but together it looks super scummy
Already gained traction? As far as I can tell there's only two sides here. VE's kill-all-vigi's and Gonzaw's all-vigi's-claim.
Neither of those options are going to help Town. I'm the only one pushing for vigi's to stay silent.
I've already said that Scarface was on and I was trying to multitask until I shut off the TV. There's nothing else I can say about the posts besides being poorly written.
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On April 21 2012 13:34 gonzaw wrote:IMPORTANT NOTICE:I've already explained all about the plan. All these "criticisms" by johnny, Paqman, etc have already been addressed, so if you want to check them out please just reread my filter. For instance, this: Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 13:24 PaqMan wrote:
It's a bunch of what-if's and WIFOM that is getting us NO WHERE It's already been addressed properly, so PaqMan please reread my posts. So I'd like not to waste time arguing about it ad nauseaum while going nowhere. So vigs, please reread it, analyse it, and make the right choice by claiming right now, or at least way before the lynch (specially if you are a lynch candidate).
Or how about the vigi's DONT CLAIM AT ALL so that scum can't call vigi right before they get lynched and throw everything into disorder? Plus save the vig from possibly getting killed N1.
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If someone would like to make filters for this game, I'll give you a reward. First person to pm the list to me gets it.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 13:27 gonzaw wrote:To Johnny:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 13:13 johnnywup wrote:
@gonzaw
but what stops actual gfs from doing the same thing? its stupid, because we still can't know. Doing what? Even if it were "pointless" (trust me it's not), having vigs NOT claim doesn't make anything better. The pros of having vigs claim are better than them not claiming, and the cons may be the same regarding the GF flip (even though I think they are not). So the cons are the same (again, I don't think they are, but let's assume them for the sake of the argument) but vigs claiming has more pros, so it's the better choice anyways. Show nested quote +I don't like you using someone elses meta to explain his behavior though. That's retarded. lol is that the only thing you've noticed from my post? And it's not meta, it's scum behaviour. Artanis' scum meta is barely posting until people accuse him. Him pointing out my "scumslip" has nothing to do with his meta, but with his behaviour. Please read my accusation on him and post what you think about it. You know, the one where he discredits my plan because of a retarded JK matter, where he FoSes me based on a stupid "scumslip" (which he should have known is stupid and doesn't matter at all) and therefore keeps discrediting my plan as well, and where he avoids discussing things people ask him, or where he tries to disrupt town (just pick anything from that post I made). He's FoSing, voting me and making 90% of his posts a reminder to other people to vote me, because of a "scumslip". That's not pressure. There's just as much uncertainty in vig claims as not claiming altogether. i read your whole post but that did stand out to me. I don't think VE is necessarily scum he's just giving his opinion like you are. VE's been playing like blazinghand with his telling people who's scum gogo kill them. is BH scum when he does that? hes hardly ever been scum, so no he isn't. This whole thing reminds me of VE vs BH where both ended up being town. Both did scummy things admittedly but that doesn't make both scum. You tunnel so much on each other that you discount anything else.
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To Paqman:
*sigh* Okay Paqman, this is the last time I'll explain it to you.
On April 21 2012 13:29 PaqMan wrote:
I don't understand that one part. How does this force scum to claim? Why would they lie in the first place and claim vigi?
It seems smarter to just act as a normal town and avoid the attention that the vigi would get.
It forces them to take action
They have to either claim vig or not. They have to quickly make up their mind, if not the opportunity of claiming vig in the future is lost to them (if we follow the plan, any vig claim after N1 or any GF flip is from confirmed scum).
The incentive for them to lie is because if all real vigs claim, they will be confirmed pretty easily. For instance, if they shoot townies/Goons, they will be almost instantly confirmed if the 2 Goons KP go through too.
Also it's the only way they can actively disrupt town and feed us misinformation, if they don't claim they will leave everything to the vigs to do, etc.
That's the incentive they have to CLAIM, they also have the incentive to NOT CLAIM because they will remain hidden and not in the spotlight, and won't have to bother with fabricating fake-claims and reports, etc.
Again, the point is that it forces them to take action and REACT to things town does, not manipulate us.
On April 21 2012 13:37 PaqMan wrote:
Or how about the vigi's DONT CLAIM AT ALL so that scum can't call vigi right before they get lynched and throw everything into disorder? Plus save the vig from possibly getting killed N1.
so that scum can't call vigi right before they get lynched
It doesn't matter, the point is that even if GF/vig don't claim at all, they will flip GF after lynched. That will tear any analysis or progress we would have wanted to make by lynching them.
By claiming, we will know in advance what they will flip, so we can focus on other things (for instance in trying to catch the Goons instead of the vigs/GFs and ignoring that vig claim for now).
Plus save the vig from possibly getting killed N1
Vigs are Millers that flip GF that can only kill 50% of the scumteam, while they can kill 100% of townies.
Explain to me why you want to protect them so much.
About what happens if no vigs claim:
Okay, no vig claimed for now, but what happens if all D1 goes by, every player has posted and no vig has claimed?
There are 2 scenarios:
- Everybody agrees with the plan: This means that there are no vigs in this setup, because if there was a vig, that vig agreed with my plan and so would have claimed. This means that every GF flip we find is from confirmed scum, so lynching someone that flips GF won't be a problem at all.
- Some people don't agree with the plan: There could be vigs or not. If a vig had agreed with my plan, he would have claimed, but what if the real vig is the one that opposes my plan? Then he wouldn't claim. However, if the situation arises, that player may be lynched or claim vig afterwards; which provides the same shitstorm scenario that I was describing before.
There's also the chance that there are in fact no vigs, and someone that opposed my plan is in fact scum and claims vig later. This means that we are still in the dark
So people, even if there are NO vig claims, you guys agreeing with my plan means we are still better off, so please analyse it fully, and hopefully agree.
Now onto important matters:
@PaqMan: What do you think about the other post I made about VE? What do you think about and him FoSing me based on the "scumslip"?
@johnny: So, you don't find his "contradiction", nor his FoS on me scummy then?
Remember, he started discrediting my case, and that's what I would have expected him to do somewhat (considering his previous standing).
But then he instantly FoSes me with the "scumslip" thing and disregards anything else, he doesn't comment anything else about me or why my plan benefits scum, or why my behaviour makes me scum, etc, nor he does comment on what people ask him.
I agree that he's aggressive at least, and that fits his town meta the most. He didn't start playing like in LI for instance.
There's the chance he's putting his neck out to bury the hell out of my plan because scum greatly fear it (which is why he would change his meta). But if he's town surely I'll notice it if he explains himself and acts accordingly, but for now I don't think so.
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Thanks Johnny. OP updated with filters.
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Nooooooo, whats the reward? 
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I'm sure VE will point this out and create more shitstorm, so just in case I'll address this:
No, I didn't mean "our plan" as in "the plan my scumbuddies and me hatched". I meant "the plan town would have imposed once people agreed with me".
Now, I dunno why but I think I'm posting WAY too much >_>
I'll try to tone it down a little bit 
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You are not posting way too much, you came up with the plan that we are discussing so its natural.
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On April 21 2012 14:05 gonzaw wrote:I'm sure VE will point this out and create more shitstorm, so just in case I'll address this:No, I didn't mean "our plan" as in "the plan my scumbuddies and me hatched". I meant "the plan town would have imposed once people agreed with me". Now, I dunno why but I think I'm posting WAY too much >_> I'll try to tone it down a little bit
He already pointed it out in his post voting for you. You're a little late. Posting from my phone I'll be home in a couple hours but it's a little late. Just read everything on my phone, though.
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On April 21 2012 14:14 Risen wrote:
He already pointed it out in his post voting for you. You're a little late. Posting from my phone I'll be home in a couple hours but it's a little late. Just read everything on my phone, though.
What I mean is that he (or someone else) would point out "Wait, so you OMGUS VE, but you don't even addressed that scumslip he mentioned? Oh uh you are scum and made a legitimate scumslip and you are FoSing VE to try and cover up the fact that you don't know how to actually respond or justify it oh uh hoh" or some shit
(yeah maybe I'm a little paranoid though >_> )
@Ottoxlol: Well, the point is that other than VE, you, Midnight, Paqman, johnny and Matt nobody else has really posted anything substancial, and maybe my constant flow of big posts will "bury" other posts, or make people less content about the thread (think LI's Day 2 for instance).
Of course, there are a LOT of players that haven't really posted yet, and I'm awaiting their opinion (of course it only has been like 4 hours since the game started, so it's not really their fault).
For instance, I'm VERY interested in what layabout, BlazingJitsu and sloosh have to say.
Now that I'm checking filters, I missed this post here:
On April 21 2012 11:39 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Just wondering, what's the chance gonzaw's not mafia but just making an extremely retarded point?
At any rate, what I don't get is number 6. If I was GF pretending to be vig, I'd shoot as many of the other vigs as I could. And if I was JK, I'd protect those vigs who I trust to be either town vigs or some other blues.
What do you mean by this?
And Sentinel, what do you think of Paq and VE? Or do you have any other reasons for thinking my plan has "retarded points"?
(of course your 2nd point has already been answered in one of my many posts about this)
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As I said earlier I don't think it was a scumslip and I wanted to see you explain it. I think VE's just pressuring you and I hope that "slip" isn't the only reason he's voting you, and if that is his only basis for calling you scum I think it's kind of ridiculous.
Seeing as you're the most outspoken in this thread and you're really pushing your agenda I think your green.
After a quick read through Johnny's posts I get a green feel from him.
So far Mattchew has been lurking besides his FoS on me. I want to see him post more tomorrow.
I'm too tired to make a posts that contributes so I'm going to bed now.
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Okay Paqman, so nobody else seems suspicious to you?
What do you think about Midnight and his hard defense of my plan for instance? Or what about players that just happen to come by, nitpick my plan and then almost immediately leave, like Sentinel, Mementos, Zephird, etc?
Hey Ottolux, you wouldn't be a smurf would you? Your play and lack of introduction in your "/in" post makes it seem like it
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I haven't played mafia on tl
To the question you addressed to Paqman, I have some suspicions because some people doesnt like logic, but i think its too early to decide its their limitations or theyre scums.
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Yeah, hating on my plan seems to be "cool" so I won't think they are scum just because of it.
I'd want them to take a stance on the Paqman/VE issue though, at least so we can start to scumhunt properly.
Oh, and another thing I screwed up:
In this post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=9#179
It should read like this instead (the are parts that were a little bit wrong):
On April 21 2012 10:37 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 09:52 johnnywup wrote:
I think the plan falls apart if there isn't either a vig or a tracker, which is why I brought up that it's possible we don't have a vig. And what stops mafia from claiming vig then killing? Tracker sees that they kill the person that they kill, but hey it's a misfire right? Possibly, then if we policy lynch failed vig shots we could possibly waste lynches killing townies. But we wouldn't know anyways. So I feel like the plan is flawed from that perspective. If mafia claim vig, and claim to shoot a target, and then do so with their own KP, this can happen: - The Goon claimed vig, and he uses his KP to shoot his claimed target: Then he wastes his other KP. If he was real vig, then there would be an additional KP, but in this case there isn't. In this case he HAS to claim that the target of scum's KP got Jailed, which can bring problems to him depending on the real JKs, for instance if there is no JK he's fucked).
In this case, a tracker on him will watch him visit his claimed target
Also, in this case (if a tracker tracks him), they can't "shoot" someone, claim their shot failed and say his target was GF, because the tracker will instantly know it's bullshit.
- The GF claimed vig and he uses the Goon's KP to shoot his claimed target: Same as above, but only the Goon will use his KP. So if a tracker tracks him, he will know he didn't shoot his target and will know he's scum.
I guess this means that maybe the GF's won't fake-claim vig, and the Goons will instead? In that case, if we ever lynch him, he will flip Goon and we will know 100% that he was scum when he's lynched. If he was GF and we lynched him, since he would flip GF we wouldn't be 100% sure he was scum. So to fake-claim, scum have to choose between: - Goon claiming:
Pros: Being protected from tracker's results
Cons: Not creating confusion if they ever get lynched. Having to rely on JK's to claim their shots
- Godfather claiming:
Pros: Creating confusion if they ever get lynched,
Cons: Relying on JK's to claim their shots. Not being protected from tracker's results.
Cons from both of them: If they don't want to rely on JKs to claim their shots, scum have to fake a claimed shot on a target, and say that his target is GF after there is no kill the next day. This will lead them to a 1v1.
Weird Scenario that they can use: If a Goon claims vig, that night he can use his KP to shoot a GF; then the next day he claims that scum's KP was blocked by a JK AND that his target is GF. Trackers on him will see him shooting the GF, so that may "confirm" him, although it seems too wild (but well, I'm editing this post so I am free to put anything I want, so fuck you  )
The point is that they have to choose, they HAVE to do something. We will force them to react to our plans, and hopefully they fuck up their plans/fake-claims and we catch them easily.
(also added some bolded things to make it more pretty :3 )
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Well I think Sentinel doesn't know what he's talking about.
On April 21 2012 11:39 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Just wondering, what's the chance gonzaw's not mafia but just making an extremely retarded point?
At any rate, what I don't get is number 6. If I was GF pretending to be vig, I'd shoot as many of the other vigs as I could. And if I was JK, I'd protect those vigs who I trust to be either town vigs or some other blues.
He's apparently not aware of the role powers. JK's also roleblock and GF's can't kill. Plus it's weird that that's his only post so far. I don't like it.
Zepphird already told us he'd be back in a few hours so I look forward to seeing what he has to say.
Mattchew's only real contribution is his FoS on me. The weird thing is that he calls me out on not choosing a side after I clearly have, but avoids the whole topic of discussion altogether. Very hypocritical.
The next weird thing is how he hands over his FoS to Johnny and immediately leaves the discussion.
Mattchew looks the scummiest to me.
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Haven't had a chance to properly read the thread yet, but what's to say scum won't just shoot the vigs?
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EPT
