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@gonzaws post directed at me
We can't be certain claims are true. So hows that gonna help with chaos later?
I say lynch all vig's day after they shoot and only if its a misfire. That way, like I said, theres NO WAY scum would claim. obviously there could be a jk and claim it didn't go through. I also say that JK's shouldn't protect/rb claimed vigis or the person they claim to be shooting, that way there's no way that they can argue their way out of it. If there's a JK and he goes by this rule and the scum does it anyways, the JK could claim. If there isn't a JK, then no one will claim it's true/isn't true.
If we go by this rule, then if there is some scum that claims anyways, then we can know right away. we lynch if they misfire, we lynch if they don't try to move out, we lynch if they claim they or person they're firing at was JK'd. We're almost guaranteed at least 2 of those tells, possibly 3.
I want people's thoughts on this.
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On April 21 2012 11:04 VisceraEyes wrote:
Scum start off with an information advantage. Any plan that involves giving information to scum (like, who all the vigs in the game are) is a net loss for town 100% of the time. I'll address your points individually, for ease of comprehension.
Your list of grievances hinges entirely on the jailkeeper not cooperating. Why in the world would he not cooperate? I don't follow your reasoning about not making assumptions.
Also, in this setup, the death miller mechanic makes it so that the town is hurt heavily by *not* knowing who the actual vigs are. The mafia already know who their own GFs are, so we're not really giving any advantages away.
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We're giving scum the identity of our vigs MG - you don't think that's "giving away any advantages"?
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EVERYONE GONZAW SCUMSLIPPED! GO LOOK AND THEN VOTE ACCORDINGLY!!!
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On April 21 2012 11:16 MidnightGladius wrote:
If we all agree for all vigs to claim, then this is what happens:
0 vig claims: There are no vigs. Simple enough.
1 vig claim: There is either 1 vig, or a scum faking the claim. We have the vig claim their shot. If the shot hits, and we have a tracker, we can keep tracking the vig claim, meaning that a fakeclaiming scum would never be able to shoot until the tracker died. If the shot doesn't hit, and the jailkeepers know not to jail the vig's target, then we have confirmed scum between the vig and the target. In this case, as long as the mafia team doesn't know the real role distribution, they can't risk fake-claiming. This is good for town.
2-3 vig claims: There are 0-3 vigs, and either no scum faking claims, or some number of them. Each vig claims and shoots a different target during Night 1. Day 2, we sort them into two groups based on whether or not their shots hit. If the shot hit, we set it aside, and we focus on the group whose shots didn't hit. For each such vig, either that player has no KP (therefore GF), or their target was a GF. We lynch both of them. Either they flip GF and townie (case 1) or GF and GF (case 2). In case 1, great, we can do normal analysis on the flipped GF. In case 2, we have to be a bit more careful, but it's still a 1-for-1 trade. If all of the shots hit, then we know that there are no actual GFs fakeclaiming, and any lynched non-vig-claim flipping GF is an actual GF.
4+ vig claims: There are 0-3 vigs, and some number of scum faking claims. We use the same plan as in the above case. However, if all of the shots hit, then in addition to there being no GFs in the group, we know that there are one or more goons among the group, which is awesome.
This is all assuming, of course, that any JKs follow the plan by not jailing any of the vig claims or their targets, but I think that that should be doable.
Additionally, scum have no incentive to shoot vig claims, because a night-killed "Godfather" can only be a vig, making it a lot easier for us to figure out lynched players flipping GF.
Gonzaw's points about preventing chaos during later vig claims/GF lynches is also quite valid. VE, I don't see what you don't like about the plan.
There's only 3 blue roles.
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^Meaning it's impossible to have more than 3 vigs
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Did you even read that post paqman? It's taking that into account.
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Paq he's talking about if there are more than 3 CLAIMS. If there are more than three CLAIMS then there's guaranteed to be a liar in the bunch, which is what he's saying.
Now go be a good lad and vote for gonzaw. 
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If they nightkill our vig claims, and we get a player flipping Godfather with the daypost, then we can guarantee that it's an actual vig. GFs are immune to nightkills, so the mafia can't even kill their own GFs. It has to be a vig. That nullifies the anti-town nature of the death miller mechanic, and I'm confident that we can win from there.
The plan is strictly meant to deal with and neutralize the chaos that the death miller mechanic would otherwise generate. I think it does a good job of doing so. Look at the scenarios I pointed out on the bottom of page 10: In each case, the town gets very useful information, we don't have to deal with later-game vig claims, and we force the mafia to make fake claims very early on, allowing us to cross-examine all of their subsequent behavior.
Also, I'm not comfortable using scumslips as evidence, and I don't think a scum player would propose a plan that seems highly likely to benefit the town. I'm not willing to vote gonzaw at the moment.
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+ Show Spoiler +4+ vig claims: There are 0-3 vigs, and some number of scum faking claims. We use the same plan as in the above case. However, if all of the shots hit, then in addition to there being no GFs in the group, we know that there are one or more goons among the group, which is awesome.
Yes, exactly what he wrote.
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VE you havent responded to why did you tried to argue the plan away with the JK stuff
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On April 21 2012 11:34 MidnightGladius wrote:
If they nightkill our vig claims, and we get a player flipping Godfather with the daypost, then we can guarantee that it's an actual vig. GFs are immune to nightkills, so the mafia can't even kill their own GFs. It has to be a vig. That nullifies the anti-town nature of the death miller mechanic, and I'm confident that we can win from there.
The plan is strictly meant to deal with and neutralize the chaos that the death miller mechanic would otherwise generate. I think it does a good job of doing so. Look at the scenarios I pointed out on the bottom of page 10: In each case, the town gets very useful information, we don't have to deal with later-game vig claims, and we force the mafia to make fake claims very early on, allowing us to cross-examine all of their subsequent behavior.
Also, I'm not comfortable using scumslips as evidence, and I don't think a scum player would propose a plan that seems highly likely to benefit the town. I'm not willing to vote gonzaw at the moment.
I'm not saying the "our" was a scumslip, it might have been, but...wat? You're not comfortable using scumslips as evidence?
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ANYONE PUSHING A MASS-VIG-CLAIM IS DOING SO ALONGSIDE CLAIMED SCUM
That's all I'm going to say on the matter. Feel free to continue discussing this ad nauseum.
I'm town this game, so I'm going to die N1 unless some super intelligent JK protects me. Thank you, that is all.
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Just wondering, what's the chance gonzaw's not mafia but just making an extremely retarded point?
At any rate, what I don't get is number 6. If I was GF pretending to be vig, I'd shoot as many of the other vigs as I could. And if I was JK, I'd protect those vigs who I trust to be either town vigs or some other blues.
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Because the whole plan hinges on JKs following the plan and I wouldn't in my LIFE follow a mass claim plan D1 giving scum information if I were a JK.
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I agree with VE. We shouldn't reveal who's vig.
1) There's possible fakeclaims that really fuck us
2) There's realclaims we can't verify
3 and most importantly) Scum wouldn't want to kill the real vigs as it creates a lot of chaos, so if scum and vigs claim, they start killing people who are more likely a more useful power role (jk and tracker).
Overall, it puts us in a bad position. Sure we MAY be able to verify on their death, but that doesn't even help us much.
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Woops, I'm sorry! Scarface is on tv and I'm trying to multitask. It isn't working out obviously, so I'll be back in about three hours.
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On April 21 2012 11:34 VisceraEyes wrote:Paq he's talking about if there are more than 3 CLAIMS. If there are more than three CLAIMS then there's guaranteed to be a liar in the bunch, which is what he's saying. Now go be a good lad and vote for gonzaw.
I'm not convinced that he made a scum slip. When he said "our" he could have been referring to whoever agreed with his points. I want to see what Gonzaw has to say about your accusation.
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I still find it amazing that VE missed the point about JKs and still not responding directly why wouldn't the JKs not follow the plan.
So we'll know who are the vigs, and later scum wont be able to fakeclaim. We already discussed why wouldn't scum fake-claim. Scum doesn't want to kill real vigs first, so the information we are giving up is negligible
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I really would like people to respond to my idea
On April 21 2012 11:21 johnnywup wrote:
@gonzaws post directed at me
We can't be certain claims are true. So hows that gonna help with chaos later?
I say lynch all vig's day after they shoot and only if its a misfire. That way, like I said, theres NO WAY scum would claim. obviously there could be a jk and claim it didn't go through. I also say that JK's shouldn't protect/rb claimed vigis or the person they claim to be shooting, that way there's no way that they can argue their way out of it. If there's a JK and he goes by this rule and the scum does it anyways, the JK could claim. If there isn't a JK, then no one will claim it's true/isn't true.
If we go by this rule, then if there is some scum that claims anyways, then we can know right away. we lynch if they misfire, we lynch if they don't try to move out, we lynch if they claim they or person they're firing at was JK'd. We're almost guaranteed at least 2 of those tells, possibly 3.
I want people's thoughts on this.
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EPT
