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On July 17 2012 16:16 Lmui wrote:
Alright, since it's hard to argue either way with anecdotal evidence I'm doing the math and letting you guys reason the rest out.
Assuming you're level 11, have max level Q, 3 points in W, one point in E and have either double dorans lich or double dorans dcap with sorc shoes. This is assuming you're doing a gank, throwing a gold card with a sheen proc if applicable, wild cards and then another auto with E+sheen if applicable. There might be some other factors like additional autoattacks or something that lich bane might make easier but I'm ignoring that. I'm assuming you have 84 AD.
I'm assuming that you're using AP quints and AP/level glyphs.
With the dcap build, you have 281 AP
With lichbane, you have 156 AP.
dcap you do:
266.4(gold) + 442.65(wildcards) + 251.4(E proc) = ~960 damage
lichbane:
260.4(gold +sheen proc) + 361.4 (wildcards) + 201.4(E + sheen proc) = ~823 damage
There's the numbers, make your own choices. These numbers do not take into account any resists.
I believe firmly in dcap first though.
I generally go Sorc's into Sheen into LB for maximum early laning and ganking pressure. If I lost lane early, then I go Doran's into DCap and farm.
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Why is cruzerthebruzer looking at a saintvicious okcupid profile?
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On July 17 2012 16:44 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 16:16 Lmui wrote:
Alright, since it's hard to argue either way with anecdotal evidence I'm doing the math and letting you guys reason the rest out.
Assuming you're level 11, have max level Q, 3 points in W, one point in E and have either double dorans lich or double dorans dcap with sorc shoes. This is assuming you're doing a gank, throwing a gold card with a sheen proc if applicable, wild cards and then another auto with E+sheen if applicable. There might be some other factors like additional autoattacks or something that lich bane might make easier but I'm ignoring that. I'm assuming you have 84 AD.
I'm assuming that you're using AP quints and AP/level glyphs.
With the dcap build, you have 281 AP
With lichbane, you have 156 AP.
dcap you do:
266.4(gold) + 442.65(wildcards) + 251.4(E proc) = ~960 damage
lichbane:
260.4(gold +sheen proc) + 361.4 (wildcards) + 201.4(E + sheen proc) = ~823 damage
There's the numbers, make your own choices. These numbers do not take into account any resists.
I believe firmly in dcap first though. I generally go Sorc's into Sheen into LB for maximum early laning and ganking pressure. If I lost lane early, then I go Doran's into DCap and farm.
I messed up the original calculation by a good bit with missing damage on sheen procs, fixed it now. Lichbane was doing much less damage than I originally calculated (I used sheen proc, for the calculation, not lich bane x___X)
+ Show Spoiler +Fixed it now. Lich bane does do more. I'll doublecheck all the numbers though.
The above is true if you get two lichbane procs. This won't happen in most usage scenarios. Therefore dcap does more by a bit.
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lolwhat? Now Lichbane straight up wins against DCap? Fun.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 17 2012 17:11 Lmui wrote:
Fixed it now. Lich bane does do more. I'll doublecheck all the numbers though.
You're assuming 2 Lichbane procs, which never happens in practice, because nobody combos with Gold->wait 2 seconds for Lichbane ICD->Wild Cards. W stun is 2 seconds or less, and you're going to throw Wild Cards while they're still stunned, so you're not going to get a second Lich proc in your combo.
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Alright Try 2:
TF AD: 84
TF AP: 281 with dcap, 156 with lich bane
Assuming TF has either double dorans + lichbane or deathcap
Hypothetical scenario where you pick a gold card, tele in, attack with the gold, hit them with a wild cards, hit them with an autoattack that happens to proc your E.
dcap:
168 damage (2x autoattacks)
260+182.65 damage (wild cards)
30+112.4 damage (gold card)
55+112.4 damage (E proc)
=920 damage
lichbane
156 damage (1 lichbane procs)
168 damage (2x autoattacks)
260+101.4 (wild cards)
30 +62.4 (gold card)
55+62.4 (E proc)
=895 damage
lichbane does slightly less.
Final results on this.
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This is off-topic, but has anyone fiddled around with the rune combiner?
I just recycled ~20 runes I didn't need anymore, got a buncha garbage runes in return
Anyone have luck with this thing?
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Well, in any case the damage difference isn't huge, and since Lichbane also has 30 MR and 7% MSpd you definitely can't say DCap is always better. Or that upgrading Sheen early isn't worth it.
On July 17 2012 17:30 JerKy wrote:
This is off-topic, but has anyone fiddled around with the rune combiner?
I just recycled ~20 runes I didn't need anymore, got a buncha garbage runes in return
Anyone have luck with this thing?
On average, if you want a big collection of runes, you can make profit by combining cheap T1 runes to T3. You'd do that by recombining all the 205 IP T3 runes, as well as the T3 runes you don't want to keep. But you still need to keep a good deal of the more expensive T3 runes to make it profitable.
But even if it was profitable for you, I would advise against combining loads of runes. You don't get a single proper runepage until you spent a ton of money because you only have a few runes of each type. It takes a bunch of time to buy and combine. Not worth it.
I did try buying and combining small runes for a while. The results weren't too shabby, but having proper runesets is just a lot nicer.
Combining leftover runes from your early levels is of course a good thing, and if you don't have enough T1/T2 runes to make a T3, I'd still buy T1s to make it a T3 just to get rid of the lower ones and because you have a decent chance at something worthwile.
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Lol I'm real popular lately. Milo spectating my normal game giving me advice on why to build Eve AD instead of AP as I'm fucking around for fun with friends going 4/10. Next I'm walking into 950 AP Veigar for shits and we have an attack speed Nautlius on our team (try that shit out, the animation is hella funny) and FLaeyr tells me that our team should build Merc treads.
Guess all the good intentions and advice from LiquidPractice are spilling over.
<3 you guys.
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I'll figure out how the stupid proc works against bots and get back with results once i'm done. Beyond that, I'm also going to math out sheen + needlessly large with the proc results I get as well. You do lose the wave clearing capability if you rush straight lichbane that a needlessly large grants you but it might be worth it.
Edit: alright, lichbane's proc cd is when you use it, not on activation, lich bane does slightly less than dcap in a gank.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean, looking at pure combo damage in general still isn't quite right because I'm betting that in an average game, most of the time TF is throwing vastly more Wild Cards than he is PACs against champions (obv he does a lot of blue carding minions for mana, but that's not quite relevant here).
There's the off-case that you can engage safely at 525 range for a prolonged period of time in fights and be able to reliably use non-Gold Card Lichbane procs, but that's not exactly that common of an off-case.
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On July 17 2012 17:45 TheYango wrote:
I mean, looking at pure combo damage in general still isn't quite right because I'm betting that in an average game, most of the time TF is throwing vastly more Wild Cards than he is PACs against champions (obv he does a lot of blue carding minions for mana, but that's not quite relevant here).
There's the off-case that you can engage safely at 525 range for a prolonged period of time in fights and be able to reliably use non-Gold Card Lichbane procs, but that's not exactly that common of an off-case.
I'm just looking at the near-end of laning phase/end where you go in and combo a single person who's out of position. Dcap does more in any fight where you cannot utilize the proc on cooldown which is pretty easy to see but I was just looking to see the numbers behind the discussion of dcap or lichbane on the previous pages. The math/testing means that dcap does a little bit more for a straight up combo, much more if you can't utilize the procs.
Also, Sheen vs needlessly large (mid-end of laning phase item) and usefulness in a gank.
Assuming:
TF level 9, max wild cards, 2 points in W, one in E. Double dorans.
AD: 77
AP: 96 with sheen, 151 with needlessly large
Same deal, assuming you port in, gold with a sheen proc, wildcards and then auto with an E proc.
Sheen
154 (2x autoattacks)
77 (Sheen proc)
22.5+38.4 (gold)
260+62.4 (wild cards)
55+38.4 (E proc)
= 707.7 damage
Needlessly large
154 (2x autoattacks)
22.5+60.4 (gold)
260+98.15 (wild cards)
55+60.4 (E proc)
=710.45
Essentially the same but sheen is cheaper (doesn't let you instaclear waves though).
That's all the calculations I'm doing for tonight. It's not going to change the way I play TF since after testing, numbers are in dcap's favour and in real application, dcap should do more.
The biggest reason I see to go needlessly large over sheen is that with a red+wild cards, you instaclear the wave which gives you 30s to make something happen. Also, wildcards can hit more than one person.
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Oh god, this week's champ select is gonna be so annoying. Kassadin, Morde, Singed, Soraka, Graves, Wukong... and right now I'm maining ezreal so I'm gonna probably have to fight for him in the champ select. T_T
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Alright new TF discussion topic since I think we've exhausted lichbane/dcap at least in my eyes. Essentially, get AP before getting lichbane. Dorans + kages -> dcap -> dfg? I've seen froggen do this a few times on his stream and found it rather interesting. It gives 2 big nukes in dfg+wild cards and two smaller ones in his pick a card and E proc. It also happens to give cdr which is so nice to have on TF. The main thing I see from it is that the accumulated gold from the kages means that dfg+sheen is pretty much the same price as a lichbane. I haven't gotten a chance to try it yet in anything but dominion/ARAM but froggen made it seem stupidly broken.
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DFG on TF is good. I haven't played enough TF to find out when the best time to get it is. With DFG, TF has the option to ult a stray opponent and 100-0 with Ignite. DFG allows TF to stay dangerous in 1v1 situations where he is usually weaker.
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I wont fall your tricks this time Riot, I bought midnight ahri 1 week before Foxfire was finally released u wont seduce me this tme with cassio bitches!!! Cannot wait for the greek cassio skin.
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Siren Cass best Cass. I don't have Cass tho.
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On July 17 2012 16:31 Leporello wrote:So are the HoG and Philo nerfs coming this week?  Really wish there was more of a trade-off to these support-friendly items. Like they'd lower the cost by a small margin, maybe 50g. The item stats will still be nerfed so the laners will still be dissuaded from buying them, but it'll help supports who need the income to justify buying them (and maybe allow them the gold to buy another nifty ward at the same time).
People have said it time and time again, but the gp10 component is much smaller than you'd believe it is. I always sat in the camp of "durp, passive income? Awesome, give!" but what really blew my mind was comparing it to the only "passive gold income" in DotA, Hand of Midas. The DotA version is similar to a smite with 100s cd which gives 190gold if you use it on a creep (and gives you extra experience). Basically you're paying around 1400gold for a 19gp10 item.
This is arguably more cost-effective than the gp10 items available in League but the numbers are way bigger (higher cost but also higher cost-effectiveness). However, since the numbers are more extreme the purpose of this item is way clearer: It's a great item when you're even or ahead and want to / can only translate that into a gold advantage instead of more kills/more farm.
I think gp10 items in League should be treated the same. It is stupid to get them when behind. It is stupid to get them ahead if there are other ways to benefit from your advantage with a greater gain. A single dragon kill equals 6.3 minutes of holding on to a gp10 item. NOT counting the gold for the rest of your team. How often does it spawn again..?
The first creepwave on the map equals around 4 minutes of a gp10 item and those creeps get more valuable the longer the game goes on.
tl;dr: gp10 items are "worth it" if you a) have an advantage, b) are unable to translate that advantage into dragons/towers/kills and c) are absolutely unable to kill more than about 1.5 creeps per minute.
PS: Yes, it's kinda this time of the month again, but considering how much a dragon/tower/creep is really worth compared to gp10 items kind of blew my mind.
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On July 17 2012 21:38 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 16:31 Leporello wrote:So are the HoG and Philo nerfs coming this week? Really wish there was more of a trade-off to these support-friendly items. Like they'd lower the cost by a small margin, maybe 50g. The item stats will still be nerfed so the laners will still be dissuaded from buying them, but it'll help supports who need the income to justify buying them (and maybe allow them the gold to buy another nifty ward at the same time). People have said it time and time again, but the gp10 component is much smaller than you'd believe it is. I always sat in the camp of "durp, passive income? Awesome, give!" but what really blew my mind was comparing it to the only "passive gold income" in DotA, Hand of Midas. The DotA version is similar to a smite with 100s cd which gives 190gold if you use it on a creep (and gives you extra experience). Basically you're paying around 1400gold for a 19gp10 item. This is arguably more cost-effective than the gp10 items available in League but the numbers are way bigger (higher cost but also higher cost-effectiveness). However, since the numbers are more extreme the purpose of this item is way clearer: It's a great item when you're even or ahead and want to / can only translate that into a gold advantage instead of more kills/more farm. I think gp10 items in League should be treated the same. It is stupid to get them when behind. It is stupid to get them ahead if there are other ways to benefit from your advantage with a greater gain. A single dragon kill equals 6.3 minutes of holding on to a gp10 item. NOT counting the gold for the rest of your team. How often does it spawn again..? The first creepwave on the map equals around 4 minutes of a gp10 item and those creeps get more valuable the longer the game goes on. tl;dr: gp10 items are "worth it" if you a) have an advantage, b) are unable to translate that advantage into dragons/towers/kills and c) are absolutely unable to kill more than about 1.5 creeps per minute. PS: Yes, it's kinda this time of the month again, but considering how much a dragon/tower/creep is really worth compared to gp10 items kind of blew my mind.
I don't see how your post about Dragon supports your premise. Dragon is valuable. Each GP10 item is the equivalent of killing dragon 20s after it spawns over and over and over again. I get that Dragon is a "free" advantage and GP10 costs, but it's weird to say that a GP10 is "only" worth the same as Dragon when Dragon is considered a major objective on the map. I guess I don't mean to start this discussion over again, but I don't understand that point that you make.
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that BH game last night really tweaked you eh evo?
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EPT
