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On October 27 2011 11:51 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:32 Kiante wrote:On October 27 2011 11:00 tryummm wrote:On October 23 2011 21:10 KTF_CloaK wrote:
This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance! Just make 2 Zealots out of your initial Gateway and make a Nexus, then match the opponents 2 Gateways and you will be ahead in tech and probably in economy, unless your opponent has better micro than you. This is because Protoss expansions really don't give a large advantage if they are only up for a short amount of time until the opponent gets an expansion in the PvP matchup, and your initial Zealots at the very least should kill one Probe and delay some mining time from the opponent running their Probes. Its also inefficient for a player to go up to 2 Gates and get Zealots after going for a 13 Nexus, I don't even know why this guide advocates for that. Your other option would be to get 2 Dragoons and deny scouting. Your opponent won't know if you are going for a 2 Dragoon Expansion (Which will give you a large enough tech lead to where the economy won't matter if the opponent went 2 Gate 5 Zealots), 4 Gate Dragoons, 3 Gate Dragoons, 2 Gate Reaver, etc... Now we are under the assumption you are doing the safe 2 Dragoon Expansion opening that will provide you with an advantage, if unscouted. Make sure you push out with 3 Dragoons at the timing you would push out if you were going for a 4 Gate Goon push. If you properly deny scouting and push out as if your 4 reinforcement Dragoons were trailing your 3 Dragoons as if you were doing a 4 Gate Goon push you will effectively force your opponent to make additional Cannons, and your opponent really won't even have an economic advantage. The scout denial processes are complicated if you don't frequently watch VODs but are rather simple if you're familiar with the playstyle of professional players. All in all, you shouldn't have too much difficulty defeating this opening. Its not as strong as a standard opening, especially when the player follows up with 2 Gateways and 5 Zealots. The Zealots won't be able to get into your base if you have effective Dragoon micro since if your opponent sacrifises the 5 Zealots to scout for the 2 Gate Expansion timing, there will be no way for the opponent to stop a 4 Gate Goon all in. Therefore, your opponent is flipping a coin and thus I consider this a cheesy build that isn't worth practicing if you really want to improve your play. But if you want to stay in the low C ranks for a couple years, have at it. Practice this build. any replays of these techniques or is this pure theorycrafting? Because in my experience your methods of denying scouting of the 5 zealots just dont work. Agreed with this. Do you have replays of what you are talking about? Because literally almost every point you have made is incorrect. For example, matching my expansion will put you behind, as I will have a bigger economy than you. My expansion is sufficiently earlier than yours that if you do not inflict early or mid game damage (either through an all-in or some harass) the economic advantage will simply crush you. I can either continue the Zealot pressure or play a defensive style with lots of probes, which will both put me in a good position. Your timing doesn't work out because your initial Zealots won't do anything as I will have more than you, and I can use them to make you cut probes. Inefficient to go up to two gates? Absolutely not. It allows you to pressure, usually scout, and defend versus any type of early game aggression. If you are advocating for a Two Dragoon opening, I literally don't know what to tell you. This build will scout what you are doing. Watch the replays and study the timing. Low C rank? I frequently won with this at the blue ranks using this build. What rank are you to talk like that?
I wasn't responding to you when discussing rank, I was responding to someone else. You didn't develop a B rank PvP from the low C ranks by practicing that build. As soon as a player sees the 5 Zealots coming towards their base they meet the Zealots with their initial Dragoons. If the P opened 2 Zealots Goon then they can use the first expansion build I discussed. This build was used by Stork in WCG. Stork has never used a fast Nexus build and its impossible for you to argue he doesn't know about it. This is because the opening is inferior to standard builds. In an interview Horang2 said such openings are not used because getting your Nexus slightly earlier than your opponent doesn't make that big of a difference in the PvP matchup. Especially not for how far behind your tech becomes. Moreover, professional players such as Perfectman and Pure have experimented with Nexus before units builds. Perfectman went Nexus then Gateway and Pure went Gateway -> Nexus -> Zealot. Neither player followed up with 2 Gateways, they both went 1 Gateway into tech. Therefore, my stance regarding tech is further strengthened by analysis of the play of the best players in the world (Professionals). And the rarity of these builds being used further strengthens my argument pertaining to standard builds being stronger openings.
Now, back to a player sending out their 5 Zealots against the opponent's initial 2 Dragoons. The Dragoons will meet the Zealots somewhere in the middle of the map and can use hold position micro management against the Zealots. If the Zealots go as far to scout for a Nexus response of 2 Dragoons from the Protoss player its ridiculous to argue the Zealots could travel all that way then retreat to the main base without dying. If the Zealots do suicide and the Protoss is opening with a 4 Gate Dragoon build, it will be impossible to hold the attack. I have beaten the opening you are describing with 2 Goon Expansions, 4 Gate Goon (Proxied) and the 2 Zealot Nexus opening. I don't save replays of insignificant wins over cheesy strategies, therefore I don't have any replays to share. Its just like if a player goes for 2 Gate Zealots vs a Protoss who goes 1 base tech. If the opponent makes more than 5 Zealots and doesn't severely injure the opponent, either the 2 Gate Zealot user will be far behind in tech or will die to a 4 Gate Goon attack if they attempt to tech or get a Nexus to make up for the disadvantage through economy. Either way the player who went 2 Gate Zealots won't be able to get a third expansion against a competent player. This is why Pure used an 8 Dragoon timing attack window in the game he went fast Nexus. Both Pure and his opponent knew if the player who didn't go fast Nexus got too much tech out in a short period of time there would be no way Pure could take a third expansion. Therefore, Pure came up with an attack timing that would allow him to defeat such a strategy. An attack timing that is viable against such tech heavy play is not viable when you make a Nexus then 2 Gateways and finally Zealots prior to teching. If you watch professional PvP games in enough depth you will begin to see the correlation between tech and expansion timings. There is also a correlation between expansion timings and leads in the game based on army size. Typically due to winning a crucial battle. However, in a close game, the strongest indicator of third expansion timing is tech since you have to be able to hold against an opponent's attack if they go 2 base all-in.
PvP really isn't all about economy. In fact, tech and army composition are a lot more important than economy in PvP. If you go for that opening you are gaining a slight economic advantage, but you're doing so at the expense of tech and army composition advantages. Therefore, I don't see how this opening can be as efficient as standard openings. Strategy selection by professional players basically confirms my hypothesis, and my analysis of PvP mechanics adds to that confirmation.
Since this is your main build, therefore evidently you have replays of using it. I would challenge you to produce a replay against an opponent who uses their initial Dragoons (Off a 1 or 0 Zealot opening) to meet your Zealots as you walk to your opponents base and have the Zealots arrive safely back at your base. I would also challenge you to supply a replay of you defeating a 4 Gate Dragoon build when losing all of your 5 initial Zealots.
Its odd that you request me to supply replays since I hardly even see this opening, and therefore probably don't have replays against it.
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Australia7069 Posts
Whats your rank? If you're B- or below i'd love to test these counters with you
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United States10774 Posts
Actually, I completely disagree with your point that practicing this build won't help you become a high-level player. It is not a gimmicky build, and will develop your ability to read your opponent, adapt optimally, as well as your mechanics. It's not even remotely anything like Dark Templar. Please stop making these comparisons and judgements without sufficient understanding of the build, the game itself or both.
It's perfectly fine to engage their initial Dragoons. Like I said, the purpose of the Zealots is to buy yourself time while getting Dragoons yourself (getting the needed cannons), putting pressure on him (three Zealots chase Dragoons while the rest go to mineral line), and scouting your opponent. You act as if I do not understand how my opponents would react to this. I have played tons of games with this build, and for you to come and theorycraft your way through the build seems absurd to me.
I am not going to argue against your point about professionals because a) I have not followed the professional scene in a long time, b) this build is designed to help players around my level or below. How the professionals talk or feel about this build is irrelevant to me. Your point about the "rarity" of this build is ridiculous at best. First of all, I do not care whether professionals use this build or not. That is not what the build is aimed for. The game that professionals play is nearly a different game from the one we play. Secondly, your personal experience of not running into this build has no relevance to this discussion. Third, the previous two points have nothing to do with the strength of this build. If done right, this build can be just as strong if not stronger than a standard build, especially with the surprise factor. Your "argument" is irrelevant to my point because I never argued the strength of this build relative to standard builds. Do not put words in my mouth, and I am actually upset that you are making me waste my time in having to respond to your completely irrelevant arguments.
I never said Zealots should make it back to my main base. The purpose, as I have stated, is to pressure, inflict damage if possible, buy time, and scout. Please do not label this build as a cheesy strategy, that's disrespectful. It is not a cheesy build by any means because it based on adapting to your opponent and usually winning with an economical advantage. It takes skill to play this build correctly.
PvP really isn't all about economy. In fact, tech and army composition are a lot more important than economy in PvP. If you go for that opening you are gaining a slight economic advantage, but you're doing so at the expense of tech and army composition advantages. Therefore, I don't see how this opening can be as efficient as standard openings. Strategy selection by professional players basically confirms my hypothesis, and my analysis of PvP mechanics adds to that confirmation.
This paragraph summarizes the fallacies of your argument pretty well. I never said PvP is all about economy. But rather, this build is an economic-oriented build. PvP is reading your opponent and using the advantage (whether it be economic or tech) to build-up that lead. As such, this build is designed to compound the economic advantage gained from the early lead and defending it successfully. You cannot bold-faced claim that an economic advantage is not as important as tech or "army composition." I do not know how you can possibly make this claim. (By army composition, do you mean Reavers? Archons? If he goes Archons he's going to get run over, and Reavers are defendable.) The tech and army composition are completely fine to give-up in order to gain the economic lead. DT and Reaver are both defendable if played correctly. PvP is often a fine-balance between emphasizing an economic advantage or the tech lead. You are making a false assumption that economic advantage cannot defeat tech lead. Having a cannon defeats DT. Mass goons can beat Reavers. I am going to ignore the part about professionals or "analysis of PvP mechanics" because both are useless and irrelevant to this build.
Look, we can theorycraft all day but I am going to stop here. It's a waste of time. I could care less if you believe in the build and use it to improve your game. I am simply trying to help those who are interested, and as replies in this thread have suggested, people have found the build strong and enjoyable to play with. I simply do not care about anything other than that.
You prove my point with your statement about the replays. Stop theorycrafting and act as if you have a complete understanding of how this build works. You said yourself you have not played much against it, let alone play using the build. Stop talking about professionals because I don't give a damn. You show no respect of what this build is capable in doing, and therefore, I am not going to continue this argument. At any point if you want to stop talking about what professionals think and do, feel free to message and we can play some games. How the professionals feel is irrelevant because I wrote this guide to help regular players, not them. (Not that you actually know how they feel since the build is never used in the professional scene. Do not make stupid assumptions that professionals not using the build somehow discredits the build's strength at the non-professional levels. That seems to be an amateur logic jump for a guy trying to sound like he knows what he's talking about.)
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ld also challenge you to supply a replay of you defeating a 4 Gate Dragoon build when losing all of your 5 initial Zealots.
I think this destroys all ethos you had. Watch sayle's stream sometime. He goes PvP, 12nex, and always loses his initial 5 zealots. Why? They're for pressure.
Sayle's been 3gated and 4gated umpteenth times on stream. He holds with cannons and quick DTs. There are probe cuts, but it's NOT impossible at all to hold a 4gate goon build.
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On October 27 2011 13:38 OneOther wrote:
Please do not label this build as a cheesy strategy, that's disrespectful. It is not a cheesy build by any means because it based on adapting to your opponent and usually winning with an economical advantage. It takes skill to play this build correctly.
Common.. lets be real here, its a cheesy build.
Whenever i face this build in ladder as soon as i see the nexus i just sigh and say to my self: "well there goes a long macro game, now i got to all in this kid.", because it puts me in such an economic disadvantage that i have to end the game right there, harass is cool but its not the answer against this build, you cant rely on harass to recover from the disadvantage.
I think this destroys all ethos you had. Watch sayle's stream sometime. He goes PvP, 12nex, and always loses his initial 5 zealots. Why? They're for pressure.
Sayle's been 3gated and 4gated umpteenth times on stream. He holds with cannons and quick DTs. There are probe cuts, but it's NOT impossible at all to hold a 4gate goon build.
Sayle plays against koreans that gas steal against this build, they are THAT confused, against a zcorez opening on a small ramped map like FS you just can not scout with the zealots, you cant get into the base, and now what are you gonna do? Defending against everything is not an option.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
I will provide a 12nex replay pack once I get home today.
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United States10774 Posts
Common.. lets be real here, its a cheesy build.
Whenever i face this build in ladder as soon as i see the nexus i just sigh and say to my self: "well there goes a long macro game, now i got to all in this kid.", because it puts me in such an economic disadvantage that i have to end the game right there, harass is cool but its not the answer against this build, you cant rely on harass to recover from the disadvantage.
Harassing while expanding yourself (while denying scouting and keeping him guessing) is probably the best way to play against this build (unless you straight kill him with blind proxy gates or something). See, that's the reason why I do not consider this build "cheesy." It's a defensive and adaptive build geared around an economic advantage. It may force the opponet to all-in, but you yourself are on the reactive side. Now I do not want to get into a tacky debate about the definition of "cheese." I personally do not view defending, reacting and adapting as cheesing.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
Here's a replay pack containing my last 80 12nex PvPs + 4 replays of me using 12nex against top level players (Mazur, Sziky, Jumper x2) with mixed results. The replays are labelled by my opponent's build and whether I won or lost. I was somewhat flexible with the labelling (for example, 2gate robo could mean gate/robo/gate or gate/gate/robo or even a proxied robo). 6 of the replays are labelled 'Misc' because I couldn't put them in a regular build category (they are generally weird proxies), and there is one 'Bonus' replay for some lulz. Also, the replay labelled '2gate DT W 06' is highly recommended if you want to see a game where I lose every single engagement but still win the game.
Some fun facts:
- My overall win/loss is 58-26, 69%
- I am 100% (5-0) against 4gate goon (after suiciding all my zealots, hi tryummm)
- Despite having bad zealot micro, I'm exactly 50% (5-5) vs 10/12 gate
Note that the number of 9/9 gates is disproportionately high due to a couple of 5-6 game series vs the same player (so they 9/9'd me several times after seeing my 12nex).
Enjoy!
Download: [url blocked]
Edit: Also, I didn't count them up exactly but there were gas steals in less than 10% of the games. Nice try though Mottz!
Edit2: Megaupload has died, new link: http://www.2shared.com/file/88r-Wq3l/12nex.html
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On October 27 2011 13:33 Kiante wrote:
Whats your rank? If you're B- or below i'd love to test these counters with you
He got to B with 4 losses I believe. Thats above B-
Edit:
Sayle, u have a win rate of over 60% against jumper, Mazur and Sziky???? NVM, read wrong. I thought you had a 60% winrate against those guys. lol
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On October 28 2011 06:41 renzy wrote:
Sayle, u have a win rate of over 60% against jumper, Mazur and Sziky???? NVM, read wrong. I thought you had a 60% winrate against those guys. lol
I went 1-0 vs Mazur, 2-0 vs Jumper, and 0-1 vs Sziky. That's 3-1 for me, so you could say that still ;p
Edit: Just to be clear, those players are still vastly superior to me, and Jumper was doing a silly build in our second game. However, the first game vs him and my game against Mazur are both pretty good and showcase two different responses to my build.
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On October 28 2011 06:58 Sayle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 06:41 renzy wrote:
Sayle, u have a win rate of over 60% against jumper, Mazur and Sziky???? NVM, read wrong. I thought you had a 60% winrate against those guys. lol I went 1-0 vs Mazur, 2-0 vs Jumper, and 0-1 vs Sziky. That's 3-1 for me, so you could say that still ;p Edit: Just to be clear, those players are still vastly superior to me, and Jumper was doing a silly build in our second game. However, the first game vs him and my game against Mazur are both pretty good and showcase two different responses to my build.
Oh shit I remember the Mazur and the games vs that one Korean. Wasn't that where the Mulan adaptation song came from?
I was rolled up giggling as everybody was all like "ok he gon 9/9" and then you just gged out immediately...
Good times 
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Thanks for the replays Sayle. I'm going to watch every one of them and come up with a build that will crush Kiante. 
I'm using a 2 zealot 3 goon expansion now sort of like in PvT. Pull probes off gas as you get range and put them back on as you get nexus. It gets you into mid game easily with reaver tech but you have to be careful with your zealots initially and do as much mining delay or probe kills as possible. Just don't lose your reaver and zealots and you're fine.
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Australia7069 Posts
On October 28 2011 05:42 Sayle wrote:
Here's a replay pack containing my last 80 12nex PvPs + 4 replays of me using 12nex against top level players (Mazur, Sziky, Jumper x2) with mixed results. The replays are labelled by my opponent's build and whether I won or lost. I was somewhat flexible with the labelling (for example, 2gate robo could mean gate/robo/gate or gate/gate/robo or even a proxied robo). 6 of the replays are labelled 'Misc' because I couldn't put them in a regular build category (they are generally weird proxies), and there is one 'Bonus' replay for some lulz. Also, the replay labelled '2gate DT W 06' is highly recommended if you want to see a game where I lose every single engagement but still win the game.
Some fun facts:
- My overall win/loss is 58-26, 69%
- I am 100% (5-0) against 4gate goon (after suiciding all my zealots, hi tryummm)
- Despite having bad zealot micro, I'm exactly 50% (5-5) vs 10/12 gate
Note that the number of 9/9 gates is disproportionately high due to a couple of 5-6 game series vs the same player (so they 9/9'd me several times after seeing my 12nex).
Enjoy!
Download: [url blocked]
Edit: Also, I didn't count them up exactly but there were gas steals in less than 10% of the games. Nice try though Mottz!
does this include the game i smurfed you on fish?
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On October 28 2011 12:27 Kiante wrote:
does this include the game i smurfed you on fish?
Yes.
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I think Tryumm and OneOther should play some showmatches.
I mean, taking players (even B-/B) by surprise with the 12 nex is one thing, but 2 high level B players who know about the 12 nex duking it out in something like a BO5 (without gay ass 9/9 proxy) would be something to look forward too.
There are reasons why KidCanada hates this build and i'm sure they're legit.
What I'd like to see as counters:
- well played 2 gate robo which busts the front (not like the rep in the op, that was kinda bad)
- well microed 10/12 gate with pulling 2 - 5 probes
- decently microed 10/15 goon
- some sort of fast expansion (no zeal nex, 2 zeal 3 goon nex, or something like that) that plays from behind
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United States10774 Posts
Hey Sayle,
I have downloaded your replay pack and will watch them in the near future (thanks a lot for uploading it), I wanted to ask you if there are any notable variations you are doing with the build these days. Someone mentioned your DT opener with cannons to defend 4Gate, which actually sounds like a really good idea. Is there anything else you have spiced up the build with?
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On October 29 2011 00:50 OneOther wrote:
Hey Sayle,
I have downloaded your replay pack and will watch them in the near future (thanks a lot for uploading it), I wanted to ask you if there are any notable variations you are doing with the build these days. Someone mentioned your DT opener with cannons to defend 4Gate, which actually sounds like a really good idea. Is there anything else you have spiced up the build with?
I basically follow your build up until the 5zeal push and then I have 2 possible branches that I take. I don't spend any gas until my zealots scout what he is doing. Usually you will be able to see his build by the time you have ~200 gas banked so your tech won't be super delayed even if you wait for the zealots to get to him. Once I see (or guess) his build, I have the following options:
1) If I scout 3 or 4 gates, I immediately build a citadel and don't make any units from my gateways. Instead I spend all minerals on cannons and all the gas (from 1 geyser) to get the citadel and archives. If it's 3gate, you don't need to cut probes. If it's 4gate, you need to cut probes for more cannons. Against a 4gate, I will go up to as many as 7-8 cannons at my natural to stop the bust. The important thing is to get the templar tech as fast as possible. In 95% of games vs 4gate, the first 2 DTs will win you the game instantly because his detection is not in time, but you must send these DTs straight to his base and not attack the goons at your front. I usually try to hide a probe on the map so I can see if he commits to the 4gate all-in or tries to expand/tech behind it. If he expands or techs, I can switch to HT production after the first 2 DTs. If he commits to an all-in, I make 2 more DTs to defend myself from any kind of crazy base trade situation. My first game vs Jumper is a decent example of holding off a hardcore all-in with this strategy. Against a 3gate with robo followup, you won't win the game straight away with DTs, but you can easily switch to HTs as before and be in a good position. He can't move out until he has 2 obs (1 for attack, 1 for defence) and that severely delays his reaver production as well (if he's doing that).
2) If I scout any kind of faster robo build or I can't scout him at all for some reason, I spend the gas on goon range and follow up with gateways as you suggested. It can be very tight because your range will be slightly delayed due to waiting to scout him, but usually I get it in time to stop any reaver push.
Another small variation I sometimes use is that I use the 10th probe to scout the middle of the map for proxy gates then send it back to make the nexus. If you do this on FS, the probe will get back to your natural right as you hit 12 supply with about 340 minerals, so your nexus is slightly delayed but if you see a proxy you can go 12/12gate instead. I usually don't do this since the chance of proxies is low and I'm not even sure if 12/12gate will survive vs 9/9, but it's something I've experimented with.
Another interesting idea someone on my stream said (sorry I don't remember who you are) is that if you're going to suicide your initial 5 zealots, you don't actually need to make an extra pylon at 34 supply. Usually, I stop probe prodution at 30/34 and do gas/core/forge/pylon before resuming probe production. It's possible that not making the pylon and instead just making probes while the zealots die and free up supply would smooth out the build, but I have not tested this yet and it feels like a bit of a gamble.
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On October 28 2011 16:36 Holy Check wrote:
I think Tryumm and OneOther should play some showmatches.
I mean, taking players (even B-/B) by surprise with the 12 nex is one thing, but 2 high level B players who know about the 12 nex duking it out in something like a BO5 (without gay ass 9/9 proxy) would be something to look forward too.
There are reasons why KidCanada hates this build and i'm sure they're legit.
What I'd like to see as counters:
- well played 2 gate robo which busts the front (not like the rep in the op, that was kinda bad)
- well microed 10/12 gate with pulling 2 - 5 probes
- decently microed 10/15 goon
- some sort of fast expansion (no zeal nex, 2 zeal 3 goon nex, or something like that) that plays from behind
and @ variations, I would look @ iccup for sneazel replays in tournaments or defiler.ru. He does 12nexus all the time.
First of all you can't tell someone you are doing a 12 nexus because there are many counters you can blindly do after knowing the opponents build. Secondly, 10-15 goon is not very common so the chance of someone randomly doing a 12nexus vs a 2nd player doing a random 10-15 is very low.
The strongest counter to 12nexus is to deny scouting and go for a 3gate goon with proxy robo outside their base into reaver/ob, then supporting with shield battery. Off 2 bases with cutting probes to add cannons, the 12nexer will not have sufficient resources to defend this push.
You must also as the 3gate proxy robo player scout for hidden scouting/pylon because the 12 nex player can proxy a gate and if they did a dt rush, you can lose your main base.
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Australia7069 Posts
Have you got any reps of that KC? it sounds really brutal. my default response to 3 gate is cannons + templar tech, so the reaver + robo to come and bust down after could work really well. if scouted tho, the 12 nexing player knows not to overmake cannons and get goons up and might be able to hold, not sure tho
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ranged goons + proxy robo near the cannons for 2 reavers (without shuttle) followed by obs. Probes cut ofc.
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EPT
