|
On January 05 2013 03:30 Rassy wrote:
Japan has a huge debt
200%+ of gdp.
Yet japan is the most advanced country in the world by far and they are maintaining their wealth even with zero economic growth while going through a huge transition with their changing demographic.
Even with 200% debt of its gdp, it is japan who acts as the worlds bank.
Usa has been in debt for over 100 years, the debt has been steadily rising for over 100 years.
Yet the past 100 years where the most succesfull in american history.
Somewhere down the line all this debt is not a bad thing, its even inherent to the current system.
The system is verry difficult to understand though, and it is not realy teached or explained at businesschools either.
if every country is in debt where the hell is all the money going to?
|
On January 05 2013 03:49 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 03:30 Rassy wrote:
Japan has a huge debt
200%+ of gdp.
Yet japan is the most advanced country in the world by far and they are maintaining their wealth even with zero economic growth while going through a huge transition with their changing demographic.
Even with 200% debt of its gdp, it is japan who acts as the worlds bank.
Usa has been in debt for over 100 years, the debt has been steadily rising for over 100 years.
Yet the past 100 years where the most succesfull in american history.
Somewhere down the line all this debt is not a bad thing, its even inherent to the current system.
The system is verry difficult to understand though, and it is not realy teached or explained at businesschools either. if every country is in debt where the hell is all the money going to?
Most of the debt money goes into inflated GDP's. Which is why we have so many bubbles/recessions. It's called "artificial growth."
|
On January 05 2013 03:30 Rassy wrote:
Japan has a huge debt
200%+ of gdp.
Yet japan is the most advanced country in the world by far and they are maintaining their wealth even with zero economic growth while going through a huge transition with their changing demographic.
Even with 200% debt of its gdp, it is japan who acts as the worlds bank.
Usa has been in debt for over 100 years, the debt has been steadily rising for over 100 years.
Yet the past 100 years where the most succesfull in american history.
Somewhere down the line all this debt is not a bad thing, its even inherent to the current system.
The system is verry difficult to understand though, and it is not realy teached or explained at businesschools either.
Japans does have debt problems which is why their rating isn't AAA and they've been warned by the IMF for example for it too... Anyway why Japan can sustain such a large debt burden is because 90% of it is domestically held, for the US it is 30% which is actually one of the reasons the US public debt isn't nearly as bad as its made up to be. It's already discussed in the US politics thread too.
Debt indeed isn't a bad thing but too much debt can be crippling and with the growth of the GDP like it is now you're just putting it off for the next generations to fix.
And really just printing money like you advocated earlier isn't a solution either, you're causing massive inflation which hits everyone's savings including pension funds etc. It also reduces your competitiveness severly because of the higher prices which is exactly the opposite you wanted to accomplish with the devaluation of the dollar.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the chinese media should try to talk about their own problems a bit more. this common tactic of focusing on other countries is simply done to shift attention from internal problems, or else blame them on others.
|
On January 05 2013 04:12 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 03:30 Rassy wrote:
Japan has a huge debt
200%+ of gdp.
Yet japan is the most advanced country in the world by far and they are maintaining their wealth even with zero economic growth while going through a huge transition with their changing demographic.
Even with 200% debt of its gdp, it is japan who acts as the worlds bank.
Usa has been in debt for over 100 years, the debt has been steadily rising for over 100 years.
Yet the past 100 years where the most succesfull in american history.
Somewhere down the line all this debt is not a bad thing, its even inherent to the current system.
The system is verry difficult to understand though, and it is not realy teached or explained at businesschools either. Japans does have debt problems which is why their rating isn't AAA and they've been warned by the IMF for example for it too... Anyway why Japan can sustain such a large debt burden is because 90% of it is domestically held, for the US it is 30% which is actually one of the reasons the US public debt isn't nearly as bad as its made up to be. It's already discussed in the US politics thread too. Debt indeed isn't a bad thing but too much debt can be crippling and with the growth of the GDP like it is now you're just putting it off for the next generations to fix. And really just printing money like you advocated earlier isn't a solution either, you're causing massive inflation which hits everyone's savings including pension funds etc. It also reduces your competitiveness severly because of the higher prices which is exactly the opposite you wanted to accomplish with the devaluation of the dollar.
Maybe not bad from the sense that our country won't go belly-up, but we still need to pay it off at some point.
|
On January 05 2013 03:49 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 03:30 Rassy wrote:
Japan has a huge debt
200%+ of gdp.
Yet japan is the most advanced country in the world by far and they are maintaining their wealth even with zero economic growth while going through a huge transition with their changing demographic.
Even with 200% debt of its gdp, it is japan who acts as the worlds bank.
Usa has been in debt for over 100 years, the debt has been steadily rising for over 100 years.
Yet the past 100 years where the most succesfull in american history.
Somewhere down the line all this debt is not a bad thing, its even inherent to the current system.
The system is verry difficult to understand though, and it is not realy teached or explained at businesschools either. if every country is in debt where the hell is all the money going to?
Most of the Japanese public debt has exceedingly low interest rates and is held by domestic savers, who are happy to take said low interest rates as inflation is negative, which means that real interest rates are substantially higher than they appear.
Unfortunately, Shinzo Abe appears hell-bent on re-inflating the economy (installing a lackey at the helm of the BoJ), so this cycle may not continue for much longer. Given the relatively front-loaded maturity timeline of Japanese government debt (about 6 years, on average), if interest rates rise, a substantial part of the debt will need to be refinanced fairly quickly at higher interest rates. Since a lot of the debt is legacy overhang from when Japan had a larger nominal GDP, from a macro fundamentals standpoint, it will be relatively harder for a smaller current Japanese economy to shoulder the debt burden (imagine a retiree trying to pay down large debts accumulated in his forties with his social security checks). This makes the Japanese debt market uniquely vulnerable to a cascading failure of confidence.
Of course, given that most Japanese bond market investors are Japanese institutions, the government could resort to administrative measures to keep the game rolling for longer than it should by swallowing losses and remaining tethered to the public bond market. This will push the cost down to Japanese savers, who suddenly will be receiving less and less from the savings they've put in while the economy experiences inflation around them. This may lead to social unrest, especially among the elderly, as medical care gets more and more expensive the longer people live (and Japanese life expectancy is really high). We may see protest marches composed of the 65-and-up segment marching down Shinjuku in the future, but whether that will actually make an impact remains to be seen.
|
On January 05 2013 03:06 Velr wrote:
What i find fun when looking at the "high taxes BAAD" people is that facts seem to just plain disagree with you?
Sweden went well thru the whole crisis.
Denmark too.
Is there any 1st World "socialist" country, in which the people actually pay their taxes, that struggles badly?
.
Most first World countries with high taxes and expensive/strong social services went thru this whole crisis whiteout big problems... Yet you demonize socialism high tax/high social services (which you call entitlements, wtf?) just because... I have no Idea.. Pure unfounded ideology?
I agree that "high taxes are bad" is overly simplistic. But to answer your question...
Europe as a whole has fared worse than the US through the crisis. Even today the eurozone is back in recession and fixes to key areas (banking and housing) lag behind the US.
Exceptions:
Germany is doing well - they took their medicine a decade ago when their unemployment was over 12%.
Low tax and banking haven Switzerland is doing well.
Scandinavia is doing well, though Norway in particular has been buoyed by stubbornly high commodity prices.
Outside of Europe, Canada and Australia have also been buoyed by high commodity prices.
BTW calling pension and healthcare spending "entitlements" is common parlance in the US.
|
i dont think any american disagrees that the problem needs to be solved, but how to do it is the question. the article just says a solution needs to happen but perhaps specific details on suggestions would help.
Also, im not super fond of a country like china trying to tell others how to conduct themselves
|
On January 05 2013 00:01 Mo0Rauder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 21:07 divito wrote: how would America make money by nationilising every bank? Would it be through loan schemes, interest, etc.? Yes. - If USA nationalized their banks then the country would make money on interest from loans/lending. However this obviously is not going to happen. Sidenote: From my perspective it would be nice if our neighbors were more responsible with their country. It's like living next to a person with 50 irresponsible kids, a dirty front/back yard, a dog that shits all over the sidewalk and every time you tell them maybe they should patch the whole in their roof they tell you to fuck off with that nonsense. I can understand why Americans don't want to hear that sort of thing coming from China, but it would be nice it was coming from Canada (a bit more respectable?). However I often think that Americans would just blow that off, thinking ah.. fuck the north, what do they know anyway? Most people I've met from the states don't stray too far from that line of thinking, but maybe they are just the more vocal ones. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just the feeling I have. Good luck with that congress, eh.
I think thats a good idea, for the US to at least open thier own national bank (singular) and compete with the other banks on interest rates, offer loans and business loans etc. I am not sure if there already is an American government owned national bank.
|
So long as politicians are unwilling to tighten their belts and reduce government spending (instead of giving themselves raises), none of this will change. Unfortunately, it will never happen because it's political suicide to even suggest cutting back on big expenditures.
|
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-feds-scrap-ban-on-sea-otters-in-southern-california-waters-20121218,0,6414668.story
Here's a simple story in a nutshell: For 25 years.... Let me repeat that, for 25 years, a federal government agency has been tasked with trying to force sea otters to stay outside an imaginary line in the waters of Southern California. This was done primarily to protect fishermen from the shellfish eating otters (*coughlobbyistscough*). They finally decided to scrap the program, admitting it was a total failure.
Now I want you to imagine the details here... There was an office somewhere, which needed to be heated, paid for, there was a group of workers who had to be paid, and who probably fought for 25 years to keep or increase their funding for their "sea otter relocation" program. Just imagine these people going to work every day knowing they were accomplishing basically nothing but still sucking on the government teat. Now I know this is a single, very small situation. But there are countless ridiculous, unnecessary programs like this in the nation. You've probably never heard of 99% of them. But every one of them will fight tooth and nail to keep or increase their funding. Minority interests are often much stronger than majority precisely because the minority has more to gain/lose at the expense of the majority.
The reason the debate about the "proper role of government" is so important is precisely to ensure that the important tasks of government are adequately supported without resources being drained by things that should not even be in the purview of government agencies. Opposing tax increases and demanding cuts in our current environment isn't draconian, it is simply common sense. No one should be demanding more revenue so long as there is so much blatant pork and fat to cut from the system. If we cut the fat and still can't fulfill the real roles of government, then we can discuss tax increases.
Unfortunately I think we all know just how hard it is to cut anything in government, so revenue increases are likely necessary. Which is why we shouldn't start so many shitty programs in the first place. ie. "we need to pass the bill to know what's in it" sort of logic.
|
On January 05 2013 03:06 Velr wrote:
What i find fun when looking at the "high taxes BAAD" people is that facts seem to just plain disagree with you?
Sweden went well thru the whole crisis.
Denmark too.
Is there any 1st World "socialist" country, in which the people actually pay their taxes, that struggles badly?
.
Most first World countries with high taxes and expensive/strong social services went thru this whole crisis whiteout big problems... Yet you demonize socialism high tax/high social services (which you call entitlements, wtf?) just because... I have no Idea.. Pure unfounded ideology?
Yeah. Even the US itself used to have much higher tax rates, up to 94% in 1944, for the biggest part of the last century until the 80s. Despite financing two world wars, being in dept with 120% of GDP after WW2, helping to rebuild Germany and Europe after the 2nd world war and burning a lot of money during the arms race with Russia and cold war they still experienced something like a golden age during that time.
I must admit I don't know a lot about the US economic history and surely there are other factors, but can this be pure coincidence?
|
On January 05 2013 04:14 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 03:06 Velr wrote:
What i find fun when looking at the "high taxes BAAD" people is that facts seem to just plain disagree with you?
Sweden went well thru the whole crisis.
Denmark too.
Is there any 1st World "socialist" country, in which the people actually pay their taxes, that struggles badly?
.
Most first World countries with high taxes and expensive/strong social services went thru this whole crisis whiteout big problems... Yet you demonize socialism high tax/high social services (which you call entitlements, wtf?) just because... I have no Idea.. Pure unfounded ideology? I agree that "high taxes are bad" is overly simplistic. But to answer your question... Europe as a whole has fared worse than the US through the crisis. Even today the eurozone is back in recession and fixes to key areas (banking and housing) lag behind the US. Exceptions: Germany is doing well - they took their medicine a decade ago when their unemployment was over 12%. Low tax and banking haven Switzerland is doing well. Scandinavia is doing well, though Norway in particular has been buoyed by stubbornly high commodity prices. Outside of Europe, Canada and Australia have also been buoyed by high commodity prices. BTW calling pension and healthcare spending "entitlements" is common parlance in the US.
You seem to know a lot more than me about economics, but isn't the economic crisis in the eurozone caused because of economies like Greece, Spain, Portugal and I think Ireland pulling down the Euro. Without Germany the eurozone would probably have already collapsed right?
|
2012 the year when the american hegemony died
|
America to China: Give your citizens the right to vote.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On January 05 2013 04:52 Eufouria wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 04:14 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 05 2013 03:06 Velr wrote:
What i find fun when looking at the "high taxes BAAD" people is that facts seem to just plain disagree with you?
Sweden went well thru the whole crisis.
Denmark too.
Is there any 1st World "socialist" country, in which the people actually pay their taxes, that struggles badly?
.
Most first World countries with high taxes and expensive/strong social services went thru this whole crisis whiteout big problems... Yet you demonize socialism high tax/high social services (which you call entitlements, wtf?) just because... I have no Idea.. Pure unfounded ideology? I agree that "high taxes are bad" is overly simplistic. But to answer your question... Europe as a whole has fared worse than the US through the crisis. Even today the eurozone is back in recession and fixes to key areas (banking and housing) lag behind the US. Exceptions: Germany is doing well - they took their medicine a decade ago when their unemployment was over 12%. Low tax and banking haven Switzerland is doing well. Scandinavia is doing well, though Norway in particular has been buoyed by stubbornly high commodity prices. Outside of Europe, Canada and Australia have also been buoyed by high commodity prices. BTW calling pension and healthcare spending "entitlements" is common parlance in the US. You seem to know a lot more than me about economics, but isn't the economic crisis in the eurozone caused because of economies like Greece, Spain, Portugal and I think Ireland pulling down the Euro. Without Germany the eurozone would probably have already collapsed right?
Frankly you should just blame america(or more specifically american investment banks that underwrote mortgage backed assets). If it wasn't for america, none of those "problem" countries would have trouble defaulting except maybe Greece(which if you looked @ the problem closely enough, you can trace back go Goldman Sachs)
|
Money is illogical, it can be made without putting work or effort in it, on the otherhand some work hard 24/7 and just get enough to pull through the day.
One one hand emplyees work as much as their bosses, solve more complex problems then they do or do much manual labour work then their bosses but dont earn more.
This does not make sense as a physical law. Money and financial systems are a comupter program running in the heads of people, we dont have it from birth, at least not in the way it is practiced now, it is very rudementary.
People have to be thought it, the financial system is like a childrens song that we learn from day one and continue to sing till the end of our days without thinking of the meaning of the words.
The republicans are using this debate to make cheap politics, if they would be interessted in a constructive intelligent way of solving problems they would do and act accordingly. I really had a high opinion of americans, all my life, they were the heroes the good guys, the guys of moral freedom, intelligence, the saviours and liberators of the world, here to enlighten us and bring peace. And now there are no visions no moral debates, america has gown complacent and I dare to say that the america I used to look up to, started to decay the day the Soviet Union broke down and collapsed.
Today there are clowns like Palin, for which every american should be deeply ashamed, stars like Justin Bieber, I mean come on america, you were cool once ! What has happened ?
|
On January 05 2013 05:07 ElMeanYo wrote:
America to China: Give your citizens the right to vote.
Why is this relevant? Why does every thread involving China have to involve ad hominem attacks on the Chinese? If this was an American economist saying the exact same thing (and many do) would you dismiss them also on the basis of pot calling the kettle black because they are residing in the same country while doing nothing about existing problems?
|
On January 05 2013 05:10 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 05:07 ElMeanYo wrote:
America to China: Give your citizens the right to vote. Why is this relevant? Why does every thread involving China have to involve ad hominem attacks on the Chinese?
Why does every political thread on TL involve ad hominem attacks on the US?
|
On January 05 2013 05:10 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 05:07 ElMeanYo wrote:
America to China: Give your citizens the right to vote. Why is this relevant? Why does every thread involving China have to involve ad hominem attacks on the Chinese?
Isn't this entire thread about a Chinese dude leveling ad-hominems against the US?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
