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Did you know Hiya was actually 60% in TvP for a period? Then for some reason he sucked at it. He still shows signs of it now and again.
On February 03 2011 05:26 ninini wrote:
I think Hydra is already better than Jaedong at this point. When he wins the MSL, you'll see. Can't wait seeing Hydra take on Flash.
This is ridiculous tbh. What Terran's has Hydra beaten of any note at all? I think you are going to be bitterly disappointed when Flash completely rolls Hydra if they meet. Just because a Z can ZvP does not mean he can ZvT, i think we can all see that by now surely. ZvT is probably the hardest consistent matchup there is, just try to think of any ZvT specialists. Yarnc? That's basically it.
Sure we saw him beat Bisu fairly easily in the recent WL match. I also remember when Shine beat Bisu easily twice and raped Stork with a mutalisk-only build. I remember Hero consistently beating Bisu with his heavy macro style. EffOrt had a winning record Vs Flash for the year but was repeatedly losing to Light and other Terrans.
Take a look at the peak vT ELO table for yourself: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/detailed-elo#tblt-5731-1-5-DESC
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HiyA's TvP used to be gosu. Not the vulture madness fantasy kills people with, and not Flash's perfection, but when he's on HiyA's got a star sense in the matchup, it's fantastic. /fanboy
I'm not sure about Hydra. Right now I think his overall ZvP is better than Jaedong's current ZvP, but I also think he would have lost vs. Snow if he had played Snow and Snow had played that well against him. (Very hypothetical, I realize.) Given how far below Jaedong's ELO Hydra is in every category, and even allowing for the fact that as a new player if he's very good he's at a timing disadvantage, I think it's too soon to be calling Hydra better - or even as good as - JD. Not ridiculous, but too soon.
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Canada2480 Posts
On February 03 2011 11:39 infinity2k9 wrote:Did you know Hiya was actually 60% in TvP for a period? Then for some reason he sucked at it. He still shows signs of it now and again. Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 05:26 ninini wrote:
I think Hydra is already better than Jaedong at this point. When he wins the MSL, you'll see. Can't wait seeing Hydra take on Flash. This is ridiculous tbh. What Terran's has Hydra beaten of any note at all? I think you are going to be bitterly disappointed when Flash completely rolls Hydra if they meet. Just because a Z can ZvP does not mean he can ZvT, i think we can all see that by now surely. ZvT is probably the hardest consistent matchup there is, just try to think of any ZvT specialists. Yarnc? That's basically it. Sure we saw him beat Bisu fairly easily in the recent WL match. I also remember when Shine beat Bisu easily twice and raped Stork with a mutalisk-only build. I remember Hero consistently beating Bisu with his heavy macro style. EffOrt had a winning record Vs Flash for the year but was repeatedly losing to Light and other Terrans. Take a look at the peak vT ELO table for yourself: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/detailed-elo#tblt-5731-1-5-DESC
soulkey is ridiculously good at ZvT when he's not slumping, but yeah It's still unclear how good hydra's ZvT is
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I see 5 Zergs in the Top 10 in peak vT ELO. Now compare that to the 1 Protoss in the vZ category...
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On February 03 2011 12:49 Holgerius wrote:
I see 5 Zergs in the Top 10 in peak vT ELO. Now compare that to the 1 Protoss in the vZ category...
An alternative way to look at it:
Overall
+ Show Spoiler +Player Wins Losses Games Percentage
Flash 372 144 516 72.09%
Jaedong 408 187 595 68.57%
Bisu 316 172 488 64.75%
oov 228 144 372 61.29%
Stork 347 221 568 61.09%
EffOrt 154 99 253 60.87%
Fantasy 191 126 317 60.25%
Nada 439 290 729 60.22%
Sea 248 166 414 59.90%
Midas 235 163 398 59.05%
BeSt 147 105 252 58.33%
Leta 158 113 271 58.30%
H.O.T- 150 108 258 58.14%
sAviOr 205 152 357 57.42%
Nal_rA 208 157 365 56.99%
July 267 202 469 56.93%
XellOs 267 204 471 56.69%
Kal 221 171 392 56.38%
Yellow 295 229 524 56.30%
Boxer 353 275 628 56.21%
vT
+ Show Spoiler +Player Wins Losses Games Percentage
Flash 135 47 182 74.18%
sKyHigh 46 22 68 67.65%
Stork 135 66 201 67.16%
BeSt 60 32 92 65.22%
Leta 65 39 104 62.50%
Jaedong 149 90 239 62.34%
Fantasy 58 37 95 61.05%
Bisu 105 68 173 60.69%
YArnC 70 46 116 60.34%
Kal 81 55 136 59.56%
Nada 140 96 236 59.32%
Nal_rA 90 63 153 58.82%
Sea 78 55 133 58.65%
JangBi 65 46 111 58.56%
free 88 65 153 57.52%
XellOs 92 68 160 57.50%
Iris 67 50 117 57.26%
oov 82 62 144 56.94%
Much 66 51 117 56.41%
vZ
+ Show Spoiler +Player Wins Losses Games Percentage
Jaedong 143 44 187 76.47%
Flash 123 52 175 70.29%
Bisu 116 52 168 69.05%
oov 79 38 117 67.52%
fOrGG 52 28 80 65.00%
Light 94 52 146 64.38%
Nada 173 97 270 64.07%
Midas 89 50 139 64.03%
Boxer 161 91 252 63.89%
Hwasin 104 59 163 63.80%
Sea 88 53 141 62.41%
EffOrt 62 39 101 61.39%
Luxury 63 40 103 61.17%
Control 49 33 82 59.76%
Kwanro 46 31 77 59.74%
H.O.T- 65 44 109 59.63%
XellOs 112 77 189 59.26%
BaBy 33 23 56 58.93%
Leta 54 38 92 58.70%
ChoJJa 95 67 162 58.64%
vP
+ Show Spoiler +Player Wins Losses Games Percentage
Flash 114 45 159 71.70%
EffOrt 41 18 59 69.49%
Jaedong 116 53 169 68.64%
July 93 45 138 67.39%
H.O.T- 38 19 57 66.67%
sAviOr 70 37 107 65.42%
Bisu 95 52 147 64.63%
ChoJJa 58 32 90 64.44%
Fantasy 67 39 106 63.21%
BeSt 44 26 70 62.86%
Calm 52 32 84 61.90%
ChRh 39 25 64 60.94%
oov 67 44 111 60.36%
Stork 102 71 173 58.96%
Sea 82 58 140 58.57%
Yellow 76 54 130 58.46%
Nal_rA 52 37 89 58.43%
ZerO 46 33 79 58.23%
Midas 68 51 119 57.14%
Nada 126 97 223 56.50%
It does obviously punish players who played well past their prime, but I think the overall skew of the racial balance, with T & P seemingly equally dominating vT (perhaps T slightly more), T dominating vZ, and Z dominating vP, along with the relative weakness of Z in vT, P in vZ, and T in vP reflects the general consensus about which match-ups are strongest / weakest for each race nicely.
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I find it equally interesting that on these top twenty lists the lowest winning percentages are against Protoss and the highest are against Zerg. Which also supports the Terran-is-strongest theory, incidentally. But it's interesting that Zerg > Protoss isn't as pronounced - if we call this a fair measure - as Terran > Zerg, even though ZvP is often thought of as the most imbalanced matchup. (Though this year's proleague is playing merry hell with that concept as well.)
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Can we like not have SC2-style balance discussions? 
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On February 03 2011 14:24 Holgerius wrote:Can we like not have SC2-style balance discussions?
And why not? Unless you claim BW is perfectly balanced in which case I ask you to prove it because historically at the very highest level of the game this has not been true. Especially Protoss has been utterly shafted when it comes to the number of gold medals won. It is a simple fact and it's interesting. Why stick our heads in the sand and ignore it?
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There are two things I dislike about this power rank. First, the fact that Jaedong is down at number 5. Second, the fact that he deserves it. 
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On February 03 2011 15:29 Goragoth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 14:24 Holgerius wrote:Can we like not have SC2-style balance discussions? And why not? Unless you claim BW is perfectly balanced in which case I ask you to prove it because historically at the very highest level of the game this has not been true. Especially Protoss has been utterly shafted when it comes to the number of gold medals won. It is a simple fact and it's interesting. Why stick our heads in the sand and ignore it?
I'll claim that BW is close enough to perfect balance that we cannot tell the difference. The imbalance present in any given map pool is large enough to render any racial imbalance (if it exists) unnoticeable. Mapmakers have made maps that favor Protoss, Terran, or Zerg. The map pool in any given league is likely to favor or disfavor a race because of accidents in map design. The game is balanced, sometimes the maps aren't.
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I always love the new power ranks.
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In my opinion, everything before the S-class level is as close to balanced as possible, and rarely is it heavily influenced by the metagame. I mean, ICCup stats for most maps are 49-51% in most MUs. S-class throughout history has been a different story though. Discussing imbalance at that level is perfectly acceptable.
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On February 03 2011 15:29 Goragoth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 14:24 Holgerius wrote:Can we like not have SC2-style balance discussions? And why not? Unless you claim BW is perfectly balanced in which case I ask you to prove it because historically at the very highest level of the game this has not been true. Especially Protoss has been utterly shafted when it comes to the number of gold medals won. It is a simple fact and it's interesting. Why stick our heads in the sand and ignore it?
Because nothing is gonna happen about it. Blizzard will never release another patch to BW, so there is literally nothing to gain from whining about ''imbalance'', nothing productive will come out of it.
And I do not think there is much of an inherent imbalance to speak of. People whine about how ZvP is an imbalanced MU, yet I see Bisu lolrape every fucking Zerg he is pitted against, sitting at a (roughly) 70% winrate over his career and a winning record vs the greatest Zerg (who is still the best vPer ever in terms of ELO peak) of all time. Whatever slight imbalance there may be, you can most definitely overcome it if you are good enough.
What is slightly more interesting and merits discussion is indeed map balance talk since the map pool is continously changed and updated, but I personally think that type of discussions are overdone as well.
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Let me clarify my post a little bit. I actually was going to write about maps specifically but I was in a bit of a hurry.
Firstly, saying that maps are the thing that causes imbalance is an interesting discussion but it acknowledges that imbalances can exist. Maps are very much part of the game. I'm not interested in assigning blame; I don't care if Blizzard is at fault or the map makers are. We've certainly seen that maps can break the game (Battle Royal anyone?) so it's a good place to start looking. On the other hand we've seen top players beat map imbalances before (SaviOr on several T>>Z maps, Jaedong on Katrina, Flash versus Protoss on Katrina) so there certainly is a question if that's all it is.
Furthermore, when I said "at the very highest levels of the game" I was talking about the S-Class, and maybe those borderline S-Class players, i.e. the top 2-5 players at any given time. They are the ones that win the vast majority of the medals and that receive most of the attention. At the lower levels I agree that it is mostly balanced and looking at the overall stats tends to reflect that. In fact at the lowest levels of the game (low ranks on ICCUP) Protoss tend to do very well, the exact opposite from what we see at S-Class level.
As for Bisu, he's an enigma. I agree that he proves that imbalances can be overcome but it doesn't prove they don't exist in the first place. He's by far the most successful Protoss player in the history of the game and yet he still only has 3 gold medals, equal to JulyZerg who is only the third most successful Zerg (in terms of golds) or Boxer, the fourth most successful Terran. I won't say that it is conclusive proof that imbalances exist, perhaps we just haven't seen any Protoss players as gifted as best Terran and Zerg players, but I don't think it does any good to dismiss imbalances out of hand (though simply whining about Terran imba or Zerg imba or whatever the flavour of the month certainly doesn't do any good either).
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Since he pretty much proves that imbalances can be overcome, I think it's far more interesting to talk about the players actual skill and not balance.
I do not like how the words ''luck'' and ''imba'' are used so often as excuses after someone loses. You can almost always point out flaws in the play, mistakes and things the player could've done a lot better after a loss. Like that guy in the KT LR thread the other day who went like ''TvZ so imba, there is nothing Zerg can do'' after the game between Action and Sea despite the fact that Action played like an absolute ass-hat during the the entire late-game.
Focusing on balance talk is focusing on the wrong thing IMO. It's completely uninteresting and generally has to do with fanboys being butt-hurt.
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What I found interesting about the conversation was the notion of players who overcome those general imbalances. Hiya was mentioned as a player who occasionally shows sparks of that in his vT (and he's still over 55% against Protoss, which if you look at Terran players in general, is a pretty enormous accomplishment), and Yarnc mentioned as a vT specialist (same thing for Zerg players against T).
I didn't mean to be talking about balance as an end in itself, but as a way to provide context to the accomplishment of overcoming that general imbalance.
I do agree that the imbalance is fairly minor - the match-ups are generally in the 51 - 53% over the course of professional Brood War's lifetime, right? That's more balanced than chess ("Statistics compiled since 1851 support this view, showing that White consistently wins slightly more often than Black, usually scoring between 52 and 56 percent," on Wikipedia), after all.
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On February 03 2011 16:39 Holgerius wrote:
Since he pretty much proves that imbalances can be overcome, I think it's far more interesting to talk about the players actual skill and not balance.
I do not like how the words ''luck'' and ''imba'' are used so often as excuses after someone loses. You can almost always point out flaws in the play, mistakes and things the player could've done a lot better after a loss. Like that guy in the KT LR thread the other day who went like ''TvZ so imba, there is nothing Zerg can do'' after the game between Action and Sea despite the fact that Action played like an absolute ass-hat during the the entire late-game.
Focusing on balance talk is focusing on the wrong thing IMO. It's completely uninteresting and generally has to do with fanboys being butt-hurt.
Your arguments would carry a lot more weight coming from a Protoss fan than one of the biggest Terran fans on the site (I'll refrain from using the word "fanboy" since name calling doesn't do any good and you're usually very civil in your posts). It's always easier to dismiss something that affects you positively.
Furthermore, it's not like the imbalances are overwhelming. If a map is 60% favoured to one race over another, the other race will still win 40% of the time, which will be quite often. It still doesn't mean that the map is balanced. Heck, a Terran managed to beat a Zerg on Battle Royal twice, are you going to tell me that map wasn't a horrible mess, and you'd be ok to revive it as a ProLeague map?
I agree there's a lot whining (I've been known to do that on occasion too, in the heat of watching a live game where the player I was cheering for lost) and it's usually unjustified. Certainly in the Sea/Action game we can blame Action for playing badly. In fact I don't think you can ever blame imbalance for a single loss, it's something that only shows itself when you look at the statistics over a large sample.
I have one last question for you, do you really think that the quality of the very best Protoss players has been lower skill-wise than that of the best Terrans and Zerg? Because we already know that they've much less successful overall and if the game and maps were perfectly balanced they should be much closer in medal count than they are.
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Looks like you got it right this month
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The amount of inconsistency hurts my head so much.
Flash had almost as good of a week last month, then drops from #1 to #5
This month, he's STILL not in any individuals and goes up from #5 to #1. If anything I'd say Flash should have been #1 last month and dropped to #2 or 3 THIS month. Fantasy wins an OSL in great fashion but has been pretty awful in winners league, which is why putting flash over him is reasonable, but Stork has been doing great in winners league and his only blemish was losing to oov's builds.
Then you have Bisu, who is ALSO not in any individual leagues, but went 15-2 with 3 all kills, I don't even like him but he should be ahead of Fantasy by your logic. It's too bad that OSL Finals were the only prominent match going on since MSL is still so far behind and w'eve just been chillin in league games because in all honesty, Fantasy should be #3 or 4 with how bad he's been in winners league, you say its because he's faced some good vT opponents, well so has Flash, GOOD players face GOOD players against their race. Yet Fantasy can't seem to handle it. He lost to Zero, ggaemo, and the grandaddy of them all, JAEHOON. Come on man.
Is PR meant to predict who will be best in the upcoming month, or who had the best current month. Becuase if its the latter, we should see Flash and Bisu at top 2, with Jaedong next then i guess Fantasy followed by Stork, who both made one finals and have been underwhelming otherwise. (Although Storks early January blew Fantasys out of the water)
Seems like the writer of PR just puts whoever has had the best last two weeks of the month, as opposed to who had the best months overall.
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TheHunksta, I think thats very unfair. Lets take your Flash example, Flash did NOT have as good of a month last month, he lost to SSak, Hyuk, Classic and Kal. This month he only lost to Zero once and is 12-1 overall with wins against pretty much every player in the top 10.
Flamewheel had a really though job, states clearly that there are 5 viable candidates and that the difference between them is so small there might as well not be a difference. No matter what there are arguments for putting the top 5 in any order.
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EPT
