EPTIts almost a week into February and still nothing
Power Rank 02/01/2011 - Page 12
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
Its almost a week into February and still nothing | ||
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Hugo(Sphere)
United States44 Posts
Yet, hardly do I ever see arguments about the actual content of the games themselves. WATCH THE GAMES PEOPLE and stop trying to find a magic formula. Power Rank is supposed to be the thinking man's rank, the subjective rank. How many times are you going to debate a formula. There IS NO FORMULA. Flamewheel did a really nice job justifying his rank. I probably would've put Stork higher actually, but I totally get and respect his rank. It's like watching the same argument over and over. It'd be really much more interesting to talk about the games and the quality of the play, which is what Power Rank is about. Sorry to all the people that have made really good comments and remarks, but I feel like I see the same old arguments every month about record. PS Did anyone think Flash was gonna let KT lose to MBC being down 3-1? That's power. | ||
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
On February 05 2011 02:20 ninini wrote: This is ridiculous tbh. What Terran's has Hydra beaten of any note at all? I think you are going to be bitterly disappointed when Flash completely rolls Hydra if they meet. Just because a Z can ZvP does not mean he can ZvT, i think we can all see that by now surely. ZvT is probably the hardest consistent matchup there is, just try to think of any ZvT specialists. Yarnc? That's basically it. Maybe you're right that ZvT might be a weakness, but Hydra is far from a ZvP sniper. I think he's got the best ZvZ right now, and for that reason he'll win the MSL. Maybe that doesn't make him the best zerg though, since his vT is still questionable.[/QUOTE] The thing I like about Hydra is that he seems very well rounded, much like EffOrt was too, very good in all matchups with no obvious weaknesses. However his ZvT, though based on pure winrate his best matchup, is certainly untested against top players. In fact, during his recent monster run he's played very few ZvT's overall. The only notable win I could find among his recent games was against Fantasy, though he went and lost against him later on and Fantasy isn't know for his TvZ in the first place (especially in ProLeague). Other than that he has losses to Midas, Sea and Light, so it would seem he has lost against pretty much any competent TvZ player that he's come up against but because he has played so few ZvT's since his breakout period I'd say the jury is still out. A game against Flash would be interesting though, even if he loses it could tell us a lot about his potential in the matchup. | ||
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ZBiR
Poland1092 Posts
On February 05 2011 12:51 SkelA wrote: I know this isnt the apropriate thread and all but what about Kespa February rank ? Its almost a week into February and still nothing Lunar new year break | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On February 05 2011 02:20 ninini wrote: This is ridiculous tbh. What Terran's has Hydra beaten of any note at all? I think you are going to be bitterly disappointed when Flash completely rolls Hydra if they meet. Just because a Z can ZvP does not mean he can ZvT, i think we can all see that by now surely. ZvT is probably the hardest consistent matchup there is, just try to think of any ZvT specialists. Yarnc? That's basically it. How many TvP specialists are there? Flash? How many PvZ specialists are there? Bisu? It's just how the game works, slight Z>T>P>T. Hydras ZvT has looked really solid and although it remains somewhat unproven he hasn't shown a sizable weakness in it or anything more than what you would expect any Zerg to show (Unlike Calm for example) | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On February 05 2011 15:31 Hugo(Sphere) wrote: I think it's strange that almost everyone that bitches about this Power Rank keeps on quoting relative weights of stats, PL vs SL, numbers numbers numbers, which of course a finely honed algorithm could calculate, or basically what ELO is (minus relative weights for SL vs PL). Yet, hardly do I ever see arguments about the actual content of the games themselves. WATCH THE GAMES PEOPLE and stop trying to find a magic formula. Power Rank is supposed to be the thinking man's rank, the subjective rank. How many times are you going to debate a formula. There IS NO FORMULA. Flamewheel did a really nice job justifying his rank. I probably would've put Stork higher actually, but I totally get and respect his rank. It's like watching the same argument over and over. It'd be really much more interesting to talk about the games and the quality of the play, which is what Power Rank is about. Sorry to all the people that have made really good comments and remarks, but I feel like I see the same old arguments every month about record. PS Did anyone think Flash was gonna let KT lose to MBC being down 3-1? That's power. The reason why people argue with numbers should be clear. Qualitative analysis of game play can get fishy. Even in games where at first glance it looks like a one-sided obliteration, it may be a slight advantage turning into a landslide with both players playing evenly rather than the loser just getting out-classed. There's a lot of arguments over which is which. I'd point out that this is one of the reasons why Flash was placed so low in the Jan. 1 ranking: he just didn't seem like Flash in the games he lost. But of course this caused a lot of controversy. Icarus imbalanced ZvT, wraith fail against Valkyrie, and Flash's dominance in past seasons and in proleague were all brought up. And conclusions varied from "those games were utterly meaningless and should be completely disregarded" to "omg omg omg slump!!!!" Qualitative analysis does play a role in rankings and people tend to factor it into discussions even subconsciously. For instance, going purely on statistics, the best December was had by Hydra, and even if you give weight to being in both starleauges, an outlook based purely on monthly statistics would have put Hydra in the top 2, yet I don't remember anyone making such an argument. And specifically, it did influence Bisu's position as #2 on that ranking (for taking down top players very thoroughly) and Flash's position as #5 for not bringing his A-game to the table when it was needed most. People had gripes about all that too. | ||
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CoWsGoesMoo
250 Posts
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Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;; I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December. It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore. COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all). | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
But with regards to Hydra, I disagree about there being any kind of quantitative reasoning for his "low" ranking both last month and this month. The main arguments I see are that he's unestablished and that "his opponents always seem to make mistakes that give him the win." That first point is understandable. That second point is a prime example of the qualitative catch-22: is Hydra a "good but not great" player who has had some luck in opponents not playing their fullest, or is Hydra using his own skill to make his opponents look bad? To be thoroughly honest, I think Hydra is the real deal and pretty much any other time I would expect a rank 3 or rank 4 rather than a rank 6, but TBLS has been hot lately so... Of course, if Hydra manages an upset on JvZ a la Calm, then I will expect his rank to go up. | ||
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CoWsGoesMoo
250 Posts
On February 06 2011 16:02 Bibbit wrote: I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December. It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore. COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all). Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ | ||
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johanes
Czech Republic2227 Posts
On February 06 2011 17:31 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there | ||
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
On February 06 2011 17:31 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: "Power Rank isn't about achievements, it's about hotness."Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ | ||
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Ciryandor
United States3735 Posts
On February 06 2011 19:07 mnesthes wrote: "Power Rank isn't about achievements, it's about hotness." I'd make a joke about Bisu being the hottest progamer but I don't want to be called homo. | ||
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johanes
Czech Republic2227 Posts
On February 06 2011 21:02 Ciryandor wrote: I'd make a joke about Bisu being the hottest progamer but I don't want to be called homo. too late, sweet boy | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On February 06 2011 06:08 SubtleArt wrote: How many TvP specialists are there? Flash? How many PvZ specialists are there? Bisu? It's just how the game works, slight Z>T>P>T. Hydras ZvT has looked really solid and although it remains somewhat unproven he hasn't shown a sizable weakness in it or anything more than what you would expect any Zerg to show (Unlike Calm for example) Aren't you agreeing with my posts really here? There isn't many specialists in the hard matchups that is definitely clear, and that's why i think Hydra is unproven although he does look decent. The guy said he was looking forward for Hydra vs Flash, but Hydra hasn't proven anything in this matchup yet. Anyway it should be interesting MSL even if it's only ZvZ, just for that series. It is of course reminiscent of the semi-finals vs Calm, except this time JD is only in the one league so should get a lot of ZvZ practice time in on these maps. Assuming inhouse practice partners are used most of the time for this kind of thing, JD has an edge there too, being able to constantly play with Killer (who recently beat Hydra himself). Least Hydra looks a hell of a lot more solid than Action, who we all assumed was gonna be great basically from one game with Flash and a few other vT's. Looked like he got into KT on that alone. | ||
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Tianx
United States1196 Posts
On February 05 2011 19:12 Goragoth wrote:A game against Flash would be interesting though, even if he loses it could tell us a lot about his potential in the matchup. I wouldn't count on that. Remember when Soulkey ZvT was just starting to break in and then Flash killed every single one of his lurkers with like 8 marines and proceeded to take every base on the map? Getting murdered by Flash doesn't necessarily mean anything, good or bad. | ||
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Firereaver
India1701 Posts
This months PR's are just wrong-o!! P.S: I think I said this elsewhere also by mistake... | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On February 07 2011 05:00 Tianx wrote: I wouldn't count on that. Remember when Soulkey ZvT was just starting to break in and then Flash killed every single one of his lurkers with like 8 marines and proceeded to take every base on the map? Getting murdered by Flash doesn't necessarily mean anything, good or bad. Same thing happened again recently to Soulkey on Grand Line or whatever the new desert map is didn't it? He walked into the nat with one ctrl group of rines and killed everything immediately. I reckon if you showed someone new to the game that one they would call imbalance, Soulkeys lurker/ling control was fine yet he couldn't do anything. And we've seen by Action giving Flash a good run for his money lategame that playing Flash might not be the best judge of someones skills. Strangely you can same the same about ZerO really. Judged on his games vs Flash and the ridiculous skill shown against his mech (even in games he lost) you'd think he was one of the top vT's there was, but he's only 53% in it and loses regularly. I dunno maybe he's just better against mech; i Should watch some of ZerO's games again from the past season they are usually entertaining. | ||
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Amnesia
United States3818 Posts
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
On February 07 2011 05:00 Tianx wrote: I wouldn't count on that. Remember when Soulkey ZvT was just starting to break in and then Flash killed every single one of his lurkers with like 8 marines and proceeded to take every base on the map? Getting murdered by Flash doesn't necessarily mean anything, good or bad. Well, I did say could, not would. It would depend on the game being reasonably standard and lasting into the mid-late game. ZerO has played a number of close games with Flash that he ended up losing and I would consider him to be #2 ZvT right now. I think the thing we all want to know is if Hydra inherited the uncanny knack that EffOrt had for beating Flash. EffOrt wasn't a ZvT sniper either (in fact it was probably his worst matchup, though not by much) but had a great record against Flash. | ||
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