great great's done very well in the PDPop MSL, and in some weird twist of irony will make the finals since he's playing against ZerO... Despite this, I'm not very impressed at all by great, partly because of the silliness of the series between him and Kal and partly because of his pretty abysmal Winner's League play. He's 1-4, and his single win is to Calm. While he has the results in the individual leagues, his team contribution is low. Violet and Bogus aren't in any leagues but have shown very solid play, so that's why I think they should be ranked over great.
Sea Sea's got a lot of wins in Winner's League, but he's been unable to defeat any of his better opponents--his best wins are over BeSt (who isn't playing well recently) and Snow. Furthermore, since he's not in a league great beat him in that respect.
Shoutouts
Tyson, Light, BaBy, Stats The All-Kill is the best thing one can do for one's team in Winner's League. Though you guys haven't really played too impressively outside of your all-kill, it's still something to pat yourselves on the back for.
Bravely done! I think you've given reasonable and articulate explanations for every spot, considering how difficult it was this month to separate people. The only one I disagree with is the placement of Fantasy, I think he should be below Bisu but your analogy has almost convinced me that you are right
The top 5 definitely isn't in the order I'd put it. But it's still something I'm willing to accept; I'm just excited to see so many players stepping up to play absolutely beautiful Starcraft.
I think that people are- across the board- selling Jaedong short. I scanned through the PR idly while waiting for the new one. And seriously the number of times the PR writers and public consensus states that Jaedong's "edge" is gone is absolutely staggering. I think that based on the number of times people have said that Jaedong's "spark" is missing leads to one thing.
He's not going anywhere. This has happened before multiple times throughout the years, and he's always bounced back to set a new standard for himself. I can't wait to see it happen again.
Good PR, flamewheel . Everything is edible, and more importantly it is all explained well. Already can't wait for the next one.
On February 01 2011 16:14 RookM wrote: The top 5 definitely isn't in the order I'd put it. But it's still something I'm willing to accept; I'm just excited to see so many players stepping up to play absolutely beautiful Starcraft.
I think that people are- across the board- selling Jaedong short. I scanned through the PR idly while waiting for the new one. And seriously the number of times the PR writers and public consensus states that Jaedong's "edge" is gone is absolutely staggering. I think that based on the number of times people have said that Jaedong's "spark" is missing leads to one thing.
He's not going anywhere. This has happened before multiple times throughout the years, and he's always bounced back to set a new standard for himself. I can't wait to see it happen again.
Good PR, flamewheel . Everything is edible, and more importantly it is all explained well. Already can't wait for the next one.
Thanks^^ I don't think Jaedong is going anywhere (I would certainly hope not since he's my favorite player) but I'm just trying to capture the moment, you know?
On February 01 2011 16:15 flamewheel wrote: Thanks^^ I don't think Jaedong is going anywhere (I would certainly hope not since he's my favorite player) but I'm just trying to capture the moment, you know?
Absolutely. I'm willing to accept that Jaedong is not playing the best Starcraft of his life at the moment. And to me the series against Snow reaffirmed my hope that Jaedong would bounce back. Snow played superbly. But in the last game Jaedong just... refused to lose. I had counted him out when, within one minute (it seemed; time was at a standstill) he completely turned the game on its head through sheer force of will.
And everyone else is playing such amazing Starcraft. Jaedong is still getting the results, but his games aren't as pretty. At the moment I definitely see that perspective, even if it's not my personal one.
It saddens me to see two Terrans at the top. But any ordering of the top five could've held, depending on your fanboyism or how you value different characteristics...
Flash Pros: Top WL record, won head-to-head matches with Bisu and Stork, dominating previous year Flash Cons: Worst league eliminations of TBLS (dropped out to scrubs + Kal), plays the most successful race Flash Mitigators: Eliminations were a while ago, and close together in time; maybe a 'fluke'.
Bisu Pros: Top WL record, triple back-to-back all-kills, plays the least successful race Bisu Cons: Early league elimination, lost most head-to-head matches Bisu Mitigators: Eliminated at the hands of strong players
Fantasy Pros: Won the fucking OSL 3-0 against the best PvT'er of all time Fantasy Cons: Comparatively weak Winner's League record, fucking terrible Bo5 against Calm, plays the most successful race Fantasy Mitigators: Had to prep for his Starleague, didn't get to play much WL except against players that defeated Bisu.
Stork Pros: Top WL record, OSL silver + MSL seed, plays the least successful race, most longevity of any relevant modern player Stork Cons: Lost 0-3 in two back-to-back Bo5s Stork Mitigators: Had to play two back-to-back Bo5s against extremely good ZvP/TvP players who could dedicate their time primarily to those series; can also be argued as a fluke due to close proximity of losses and successful WL play following those losses.
Jaedong Pros: Good WL record, favored to win MSL, dominating previous year (I still blame T>>Z maps for Flash's crowning as official Bonjwa over Jaedong) Jaedong Cons: Terrible loss to Violet, looking 'shaky' in ZvP, lost head-to-head matches
I would've favored Stork-->Jaedong-->Bisu-->Fantasy-->Flash because that's approximately my order of player preference, but... yeah.
Meh that's ok for me. Though Flash records lack SL action, he IS the scarrier guy out there. Fanta should be above Stork because of the OSL. And Stork should be above JD and Bisu because of SL and better PL performance (yes he has less wins that Bisu, but he only lost once, while Bisu lost twice, hence putting Khan above SKT1 this round).
i would have never put flash rank#1, he's been doing good in PL, but that's it, he has nothing else to manage, on the other side even if stork badly finish is osl and msl he was very efficient in PL, Jaedong is probably gonna win an other MSL being something like 70% of his current level and he's still doing good in PL, his zvz is as the usual, indestructible. If you follow the performances of Jaedong's opponent, even if they are doing better this season, it's still not matching Jaedong.
On February 01 2011 16:00 lastmotion wrote: its good =)
On February 01 2011 16:06 ZavikZyke wrote: Great PR this month imo.
On February 01 2011 16:08 nodule wrote: Great rank.
On February 01 2011 16:13 DropBear wrote: Bravely done! I think you've given reasonable and articulate explanations for every spot, considering how difficult it was this month to separate people.
On February 01 2011 16:14 RookM wrote: Good PR, flamewheel . Everything is edible, and more importantly it is all explained well. Already can't wait for the next one.
On February 01 2011 16:20 writer22816 wrote: Great PR! I had slightly different opinions on the top 5 but I fully agree with your reasoning.
What is this? Flamewheel, you had such an easy time this month, and this is what you came up with? It's all wrong, and I, for one, feel personally offended by it. How could you even think that putting himthere was a good idea? The only reason he even won any games is because of map and racial imbalances. In fact, he didn't even win any games, it was more like his opponents lost them. Your bias is so transparent, what a joke. I bet the other fanboys will just eat it up.
These other wusses may not call you out on it, but I will see to it that you will rue this ranking, heretic. Mark my words.
I would have placed Jaedong higher, and Fantasy lower, cause seriously, the only thing he has done well was his serie against Stork (great play against a psychologically weakened Stork unable to adapt). His play against Clam should score negative points, I still can't forgive him for that. I'd have gone with Jaedong/Flash Stork Bisu Fanta I guess. Can't really blame you though^^
On February 01 2011 17:10 corumjhaelen wrote: I would have placed Jaedong higher, and Fantasy lower, cause seriously, the only thing he has done well was his serie against Stork (great play against a psychologically weakened Stork unable to adapt). His play against Clam should score negative points, I still can't forgive him for that. I'd have gone with Jaedong/Flash Stork Bisu Fanta I guess. Can't really blame you though^^
Ahh I wish Ver were here. I actually forgot to quote Ver, but Ver really wanted me to put Fantasy at rank 1 before the SKT-KHAN match.
(5:47:04 AM) Ver uh (5:47:07 AM) Ver fantasy #1 obviously
On February 01 2011 17:10 corumjhaelen wrote: I would have placed Jaedong higher, and Fantasy lower, cause seriously, the only thing he has done well was his serie against Stork (great play against a psychologically weakened Stork unable to adapt). His play against Clam should score negative points, I still can't forgive him for that. I'd have gone with Jaedong/Flash Stork Bisu Fanta I guess. Can't really blame you though^^
Ahh I wish Ver were here. I actually forgot to quote Ver, but Ver really wanted me to put Fantasy at rank 1 before the SKT-KHAN match.
Everyone knew that no matter what, few would fully agree with the rank. Because of that, you are probably going to get lot less hate than you otherwise would by just offsetting one popular player by a single spot most other moths, even from people who do not agree with the top 5 at all. So that's cool.
Anyway, good PR. I feel Jaedong is underestimated, but it's still fully understandable that he is where he is. Huge props for realizing Stork is still better than Bisu.
Was a difficult time this month, but i think i can live with it. Personally i wanted bisu higher, but flash #1 is acceptable (although i don't like flash -_-) He just has the biggest aura, he's the favorite against everyone. Fantasy played a spectacular OSL final, other than that, he didn't do much. Still, he won the OSL in a 3-0 fashion against the best TvPer, justified.
Stork over Bisu, wellllllllllll, if you compare head to head, storks higher, but overall "power" display right now, bisu seems hotter.
Jaedong 5 and hydra 6 i agree with.
Good PR after such a month, where many players showed us amazing starcraft.
On February 01 2011 17:41 Elefanto wrote: Was a difficult time this month, but i think i can live with it. Personally i wanted bisu higher, but flash #1 is acceptable (although i don't like flash -_-) He just has the biggest aura, he's the favorite against everyone. Fantasy played a spectacular OSL final, other than that, he didn't do much. Still, he won the OSL in a 3-0 fashion against the best TvPer, justified.
Stork over Bisu, wellllllllllll, if you compare head to head, storks higher, but overall "power" display right now, bisu seems hotter.
Jaedong 5 and hydra 6 i agree with.
Good PR after such a month, where many players showed us amazing starcraft.
How so? =/ Similiar WL record and a heavily slanted head to head record in favor of Stork..
I agree with most of this. I think Fantasy is a little high, I mean he played well against Stork and clenched the OSL but I don't think he's the second best player on Brood War. Honestly, I was expecting Fantasy to be #5 this week...
Still, great PR and as a Bisu fanboy I'm just glad that he's still staying pretty consistent.
On February 01 2011 17:41 Elefanto wrote: Was a difficult time this month, but i think i can live with it. Personally i wanted bisu higher, but flash #1 is acceptable (although i don't like flash -_-) He just has the biggest aura, he's the favorite against everyone. Fantasy played a spectacular OSL final, other than that, he didn't do much. Still, he won the OSL in a 3-0 fashion against the best TvPer, justified.
Stork over Bisu, wellllllllllll, if you compare head to head, storks higher, but overall "power" display right now, bisu seems hotter.
Jaedong 5 and hydra 6 i agree with.
Good PR after such a month, where many players showed us amazing starcraft.
How so? =/ Similiar WL record and a heavily slanted head to head record in favor of Stork..
Some folks are penalizing Stork for losing 0-3 in two Bo5s instead of rewarding him for reaching those Bo5s. I agree that isn't fair.
Not a fan of how the quantifier for ranking changed (hotness > achievements) just so Flash comes up ahead of Fantasy this month.
On the term "hotness" Flash is pretty hot in WL because he has an amazing winning record right now. On the other hand no player managed to knock out Fantasy in an entire league (OSL). Isn't that considered being "hot" in its own right? Isn't a string of victories in BoX's equally valuable to a string of BO1? Heck I'd say Fantasy's run is more valuable since it resulted in an actual gold medal.
Why is being hot in one league suddenly favored over the other? Sorry if I question you so much on this but I have a feeling that had it been any of the TaekBang LeeSang who had won a league then they wouldn't have been ranked under a player who only has proleague wins to show. (Even if they did show average WL performance)
On February 01 2011 18:14 Evs wrote: Why is being hot in one league suddenly favored over the other? Sorry if I question you so much on this but I have a feeling that had it been any of the TaekBang LeeSang who had won a league then they wouldn't have been ranked under a player who only has proleague wins to show. (Even if they did show average WL performance)
Maybe not. But that's because they didn't suck last month. Jumping from not being on the PR to #2 is almost unprecedented, and its not the first time someone who won a starleague isn't #1 either. Fantasy's achievement in the OSL is very well represented on this PR imo.
First up, props for giving ZerO a reasonably high spot, loved his play this month (in his good games). He deserves some recognition for his great series against Stork and for taking down Flash.
Secondly, I feel like Jaedong has been getting criticised for "losing his edge" almost since the time he first burst onto the scene, so I'm not too worried. He always has some great stretches and then some merely good ones (and only very rarely bad).
I don't think that the quality of opponents that Flash faced this month was much higher than Bisu on the whole, but that's always debatable. I think people are discounting his Zerg opponents entirely although he won against players with traditionally very strong ZvP, even if their other match-ups aren't so strong (Calm, Shine, Hero). Overall I think their records are very similar and I would have liked to see them together on the rank (either Flash/Bisu or Bisu/Flash, it's too close to call). Placing Flash first based on his WL play and then having Bisu all the way in 4th place seems really odd to me. Seeing them 1st and 2nd would have been okay, or seeing both further down would be fine too but whatever. I know it's a tough call.
I'm pretty happy all of the bottom 5 spots, looks spot on (better than last month, where Hogil should never have had a place in my opinion).
So for this month, Fantasy is the kid in the class that doesn't do so well on these pop quizzes, but managed to study and study and study to ace the test. As such, what would his grade be? I wish I knew--if percentages were easy to assign, this Power Rank would be so much easier to write.
Actually, fantasy's win rate in team leagues went from 59% to 65% when matchups started getting assigned the day of the match (and thus he was no longer able to prepare for them).
Good morning. Ah great the new PR is here! I like it, and I think it's fairly accurate to the situation. One thing I'd change is dropping fantasy abit more. He came from not even CBNC and most likely will drop several spots again next rank, he just doesn't seem to fit the #2 PR profile in terms of power.
Flash is the favourite to win over anyone, even stork, and he did show in january that he is still the same Flash he was 2010. So even though you might fault him for his lack of achievements you cannot really be that dissapointed to see him at first spot.
As is shown from todays WL games(and the skt1 vs khan), bisu have trouble going against the other top players on PR and fantasy's PR will most likely drophard next month.
On February 01 2011 17:19 mustaju wrote: I guess StylishVOD-s and Holgerius must feel as if their lobbying paid off. :D + Show Spoiler +
I kid, I kid, I agree with the placing.
Yes, the effort was worth it.
Really like this PR, and I agree with most of it.
I love the fact that you had the balls to place Flash high and Bisu ''low''. I am of course ridiculously biased regarding that, but I do think that his games are more impressive (also vs more impressive opponents) and that he deserves a lot more benefit of doubt compared to Bisu (everything points towards the idea that the random losses in the Starleagues he had were just merely bumps in the road (both his performance afterwards and his God-mode before it) and that he still is the best player in the world). And Bisu's performance today keeps hinting that he still has a quite high risk of losing vs really awesome players.
And Stork remains relatively high, that was very nice. I think it's well deserved all in all.
Other than that I think you should be ready to 1) move Fantasy down if he keeps playing like today, and 2) move JD up if (when) he wins MSL. But their positions on this PR is fine.
Fantasy and Stork really don't deserve to be #2 and #3. Apart from the OSL finals, Fantasy has been incredibly inconsistent and I still think he's inferior to everyone in TBLS. Stork has done fairly well in PL, beating a lot of top players (JD, Bisu, Fantasy) but with the way he got destroyed in both leagues, he really doesn't deserve to be above Bisu who's looking much stronger than Stork (except for in head-to-head games).
IMO, it should be: 1) Flash 2) Bisu 3) Stork 4) Jaedong 5) Fantasy
yeah fantasy is kindof like Zero. When he is put in the booth at WL I feel about the same for these two. A good player who might win if they have a good day but I really don't expect them to deliver an all kill or something like that. They'll both most likely lose to some scrub or as soon as some of the higher caliber players gets in the booth. They are not the best players right now but they are pretty far up there, both are very inconsistant. (fantasy having a slight edge, but showing over and over that I'm right) Since fantasy wasn't even cbnc last month I'd put him at 5, just above hydra and zero at 7 like it is.
Fantasy won the OSL, but he's not the Champ.
Bisu i tough to place, he roflstompes "lesser" players, but in every encounter vs the top on this PR last month he lost.
From a previous PR.
If this were a monthly statistics ranking then Flash probably wouldn't even make the top 10 (and Bisu would probably be ranked 3rd or 2nd). Thankfully, this isn't a comparison of winrates over a period of 30 days but instead is an attempt to gauge the strength of the top players of Brood War today. Placing Flash first after a month where he has gone exactly 50/50 is surely to be a controversial decision but hopefully by the end of this you will agree that it is the right decision.
Even though Flash wasn't anywhere close to 50% last month, he had other problems such as being in neither league (even though it was not due to last months games). But I think this sums up what I think the PR should be like.
My rank would be. Flash Stork (because he redeemed himself the next day by beating both bisu and fantasy) Jaedong/Bisu HARD fantasy hydra zero ...
On February 01 2011 17:10 corumjhaelen wrote: I would have placed Jaedong higher, and Fantasy lower, cause seriously, the only thing he has done well was his serie against Stork (great play against a psychologically weakened Stork unable to adapt). His play against Clam should score negative points, I still can't forgive him for that. I'd have gone with Jaedong/Flash Stork Bisu Fanta I guess. Can't really blame you though^^
Definitely this. Jaedong is doing well in PL and he shows that he can win Bo3/5s, unlike Bisu. He is lucky that he is in a team like SKT1 because it's harder to snipe him there.
On February 01 2011 20:54 Kavas wrote: Flamewheel, you're so lucky SKT vs Hite wasn't yesterday
Maybe, but I think that would have just given him more insight of Fantasy. The rank would pretty much remain the same except he'd drop more. This way, with the games being played in february, fantasys place just looks more wrong. So imo he was unlucky that those games weren't played yesterday.
I'm really happy that we've finally got a solid #2 Zerg again in Hydra. He's good in all match-ups and looks to be very consistent (unlike ZerO). After EffOrt retired it left Jaedong all alone at the top (I mean seriously, for a while we had Roro and then Shine as the #2 Zerg by Elo, that's just sad).
1. Flash - he is in god mode like in 2010 but no SL for him so his place is not that deserved but it was really hard month to put a deserving #1
2. Fantasy - yes he won a OSL gold in style but he was (still is) terrible in WL. He is gonna drop so low( or even out of PR ) on next month. Still he deserves his spot for January.
3. Stork - Im glad Stork is infront of Bisu because if it was not I would rage hard. Stork > Bisu 3-0. WL tearing almost everybody. And he has the best overall SL score of all players of this Season for January even losing 0-6 (getting into finals/Ro8 and losing is much better than anything Flash and Bisu have done for January ). I would put Stork on #2 for January but I guess my ranking is more Kespa like.
4. Bisu - Yes he is tearing the mediocre/bad players like always and he is "weak" against strong players. His Ace AK makes his WL run much stronger than it actually is because who hasnt AK Ace till now( Even Hiya AK Ace just now ) ?His SL run was bad and losing to Stork 0-2 in bad fashion and again in WL. Lost to Flash and today to Hydra. Nothing is changed.. Bisu >>> mediocre players and Bisu <= strong players
5. JD - Yes I agree JD is looking mortal now even in zvz/zvp. He has a decent WL score and he is in MSL semi but he might have a hard run against Hydra on fire. Dunno this doesnt feel like the old JD at least not to me.
2 iamho Did you see todays SKT games? The PR is pretty good. It is exactly like flamewheel predicted. Bisu is no good vs good players, and Fantasy is no good at pop-quiz. Fanta should be #5, but OSL gold brings him to 2 spot.
This is POWER ranking not monthly accomplishments ranking or this should be anyway. In the last month putting Jaedong above Flash was ... I mean Flash beat Jaedong very convincingly in 2010 in every competition they meet.
Kespa ranking is much close to a power ranking than the PR on teamliquid. In Kespa ranking you dont see players get dropped 4 places in a month and then up 4 again in the next month. Just my 2 cents.
Another superb power rank from Flamewheel. I love your careful argumentation of the top 5. All the right notes are hit in the lower parts as well, and high praise is deserved for putting Violet in there. I believe that you are most strongly suited for writing power ranks and I hope you'll continue to do so for a considerable period of time.
Good rank, and indeed any of the top 5 could be #1 (even Stork or Jaedong, no doubt). Your reasoning seems very good. If Fantasy or Bisu had beaten Stork in WL a couple days ago I wonder how different the ranks would be.
I think Stats deserved CBNC over honorable mention, but it ultimately doesn't matter when you aren't in the Top 10 anyway. He would have probably made it into 9 or 10 if he hadn't lost 3 in a row at the end of the month.
Even I underestimated Stork. 0-6 in Bo5 hurts him hard, but his WL record is nearly as good as Flash even though he was riding dual leagues while Flash was not. His losses hurt him bad and probably justified him for #5, but defeating Bisu (again) and Fantasy redeems him a couple spots.
On February 01 2011 21:17 SkelA wrote: 3. Stork - Im glad Stork is infront of Bisu because if it was not I would rage hard. Stork > Bisu 3-0. WL tearing almost everybody. And he has the best overall SL score of all players of this Season for January even losing 0-6 (getting into finals/Ro8 and losing is much better than anything Flash and Bisu have done for January ). I would put Stork on #2 for January but I guess my ranking is more Kespa like.
4. Bisu - Yes he is tearing the mediocre/bad players like always and he is "weak" against strong players. His Ace AK makes his WL run much stronger than it actually is because who hasnt AK Ace till now( Even Hiya AK Ace just now ) ?His SL run was bad and losing to Stork 0-2 in bad fashion and again in WL. Lost to Flash and today to Hydra. Nothing is changed.. Bisu >>> mediocre players and Bisu <= strong players
So that puts Stork in a position where he can't defeat a strong player himself cuz Bisu doesn't count :and Fantasy loses to everybody, even Horang2 with his horrible PvT just beat him)
I don't understand how Bisu and Flash can be so far apart. They had similar records (I would personally take the 15-2 over 12-1 but whatever) and they both looked unstoppable (tell me in which game during his 11 game win streak he looked bad in) Flash did beat Bisu head to head, so I'm guess its fine that Flash is ahead, but is the difference between the two really big enough to fit two people in between? I would have been ok with fantasy one, and I would have been ok with fantasy 3, but separating Bisu and Flash is wrong. Your argument about Bisu "pubstomping" might have been more convincing if you didn't attribute that as a positive thing in Flash's section (pubstomping=roflstomping)
I just reread the flash right up. If you replace every "flash" with "Bisu" and replace "no all kills" with "3 all kills" (and eliminate the second to last paragraph that gets very specific about who he beat) they you could just slap Bisu's picture over flash's with the exact same logic,
Stork is far too high. I don't care if you had a revere all kill (rather small compared to 3) when you lose six games in a row, you do not deserve top 3. Stork doesn't have the "hot" and he doesn't have the "achievement" (unless you want to count a semifinal win over modesty but, c'mon, modesty?)
The top 5 are all virtually equal. There is only 1 degree of separation between each player.
Why should Bisu be ranked above a player who beat him 3 times that month, and has a comparable WL record (10-1 compared to Bisu's 15-2)?
Flash #1 is the bone thrown to near-perfect WL play (Flash, Stork, Bisu, JD can all claim this throne, but Flash got it). Fantasy #2 is the bone thrown to OSL dominance. He wrecked Stork. Meanwhile, Stork #3 edges out Bisu because of last minute redemption. If Bisu beat Stork in the WL on the 31st and/or Stork lost to Fantasy, Bisu would be #3 and Stork #4-5. But Stork showed that he can rebound from 3-6 in Bo5's in the month back to where he was at the start of the month.
Summary:
Bisu lost to Flash once, and Stork 3 times. All have similar WL records, so Bisu takes last because of head-to-head losses. Fantasy is simply a bone thrown to winning the freaking OSL 3-0. Bisu is really rank 1.4
On February 01 2011 23:02 hacklebeast wrote: I don't understand how Bisu and Flash can be so far apart. They had similar records (I would personally take the 15-2 over 12-1 but whatever) and they both looked unstoppable (tell me in which game during his 11 game win streak he looked bad in) Flash did beat Bisu head to head, so I'm guess its fine that Flash is ahead, but is the difference between the two really big enough to fit two people in between? I would have been ok with fantasy one, and I would have been ok with fantasy 3, but separating Bisu and Flash is wrong. Your argument about Bisu "pubstomping" might have been more convincing if you didn't attribute that as a positive thing in Flash's section (pubstomping=roflstomping)
I just reread the flash right up. If you replace every "flash" with "Bisu" and replace "no all kills" with "3 all kills" (and eliminate the second to last paragraph that gets very specific about who he beat) they you could just slap Bisu's picture over flash's with the exact same logic,
Stork is far too high. I don't care if you had a revere all kill (rather small compared to 3) when you lose six games in a row, you do not deserve top 3. Stork doesn't have the "hot" and he doesn't have the "achievement" (unless you want to count a semifinal win over modesty but, c'mon, modesty?)
How the hell did you manage to put Bisu infront of Stork then. And dont tell oh oh he lost 0-6 in SL but hey Bisu havent been more than RO16 (or havent been present at all ) in SL for whole year or more.
Awesome PR! Althought I would have put Stork on 2nd place and Fantasy on 3rd place, due to the incredibly fast recovery from his lost. I mean, he lost 0-3 to Fantasy in the OSL final, and the next day he still managed to defeat Fantasy and Bisu. That's an insanely strong state of mind. Great writing, thanks!
This is indeed a very hard month for the PR, the top 5 are so close. At first, I didn't agree with the placement but after reading your explanation, you convinced me. Good job with the PR flamewheel.
Fantasy at 2 and Bisu at 4 seems odd, but I can live with it. I guess there was no good way to sort Bisu/Stork/Fantasy between themselves. Violet's placement is good as well.
On February 02 2011 00:25 mmdmmd wrote: When I saw All Kill Light shake his head near the end of his match against Flash. I have no doubt that Flash is no.1
Light was prepared as a Flash sniper, yet he got roll over.
Considering how often Light gets rolled over, I wouldn't make too much of it.
On February 01 2011 23:56 Milkis wrote: If you have to write this much defending the rankings you probably had no idea what you were doing.
Given this month's performances from Bisu-fantasy-Flash-Hydra-Jaedong-Stork, anybody who claimed more than about 70% certainty about "what they were doing" on this PR is either a liar or extremely overconfident.
So much for defense, now for criticism:
I would have preferred to put Jaedong over Bisu. This is largely my late-in-starleague performance bias speaking, with a good boost from the series against Snow. Now a player of Jaedong's caliber shouldn't have so much trouble with even a solid A-class like Snow... but nobody - Bisu included - played better PvZ this month than Snow did that series, certainly not for five straight games.
(Seeing Bisu go on to lose to Hydra last night only reinforces this conviction. But the two of them make sense at 4/5 one way or the other - not a major complain.)
I'm also not sure about ZerO. The way you defended fantasy's rank sort of requires it, I get that. And the win over Flash kind of earned it, I get that. But that 3-5 proleague record is really, really ugly, and I don't like his chances to advance against a less inconsistent player in great. He belongs on the PR, but he should have snuck in at 9 or 10.
On February 01 2011 23:16 Crisium wrote: hackle...
Remember when he said Bisu is really 1.4?...
The top 5 are all virtually equal. There is only 1 degree of separation between each player.
Why should Bisu be ranked above a player who beat him 3 times that month, and has a comparable WL record (10-1 compared to Bisu's 15-2)?
Flash #1 is the bone thrown to near-perfect WL play (Flash, Stork, Bisu, JD can all claim this throne, but Flash got it). Fantasy #2 is the bone thrown to OSL dominance. He wrecked Stork. Meanwhile, Stork #3 edges out Bisu because of last minute redemption. If Bisu beat Stork in the WL on the 31st and/or Stork lost to Fantasy, Bisu would be #3 and Stork #4-5. But Stork showed that he can rebound from 3-6 in Bo5's in the month back to where he was at the start of the month.
Summary:
Bisu lost to Flash once, and Stork 3 times. All have similar WL records, so Bisu takes last because of head-to-head losses. Fantasy is simply a bone thrown to winning the freaking OSL 3-0. Bisu is really rank 1.4
Bisu should be ranked over a player he lost 3 times to for the same reason stork should be ranked over a player he lost three times to (zero); because of the vast discrepancy in the quality of the other games. Somehow, you have managed to argue that losing six games actually helps stork, because it shows he can "rebound" Those 6 losses are huge, and you dismiss them because he managed to win a few games afterwards? Then why isn’t Reach on here? He broke an 11 game losing streak, must mean he will win the next OSL .
I understand that lots of people had near perfect PL records, and I’m fine with Flash being on top, but you structure your argument as if the OSL winner MUST be at least 2nd. If Bisu and Flash are near equals, then they should be placed that way
Having the top 5 be 1.0-1.4 is a weak way of saying “I’m not good at making decisions, so I won’t” If we assign everyone “effectively” the same rank, than what’s the point of having a PR? I am going to chose to ignore that as long as there is a 1-10 on the right side of my browser, and if flamewheel doesn’t want to make decisions, than he shouldn’t be writing PR. + Show Spoiler +
I’m being an ass at this point, and I apologize to flamewheel. I keep rereading this, but I can’t figure out a way to say it nicer. I'm sorry .
edit: Jaedong is closer to Bisu than Stork is, but still should be under, I don't know why almost losing a series to a player with historically bad PvZ helps your case. That’s not to mention the lacking WL record, (15-2 compared to 10-2) slumping team, and general lack of competition (who has jaedong played? Baby i guess, but its a list filled with mediocrity).
This PR was really kind of interesting. The first five places could be ordered almost in any order and you could find good arguments to support that decision. Because of that I was waiting more for the writeup than the actual order. And it didn't dissappoint, nice job flamewheel.
Yeah and the fact that my favourite player is where he belongs again is a nice bonus, hehe.
On February 01 2011 23:56 Milkis wrote: If you have to write this much defending the rankings you probably had no idea what you were doing.
KK, I have an idea of what I'm doing, gonna give it a try. 1.Flash Obv best player in the world, just watch him play. 2.Jaedong Doesn't suck as much as those below him. Plus Snow's PvZ has drastically improved so I will count his Bo5 win has a pretty positive feat. 3.Stork He can't play Bo5, but at least he's pretty good out of them. 4.Bisu Can't win to anyone decent, unfortunately he does not have to very often, so I can't place him lower (PLEASE LOSE) 5.Fanta He's won the OSL, but have you seen his serie vs Calm ? 6.Hydra He's improving, impressive record and potential. 7.Zero Hit and miss, but he can play well. 8.Snow Improving everywhere. Despite an average record, his play his truly impressive. 9.Bogus Good record, nice TvP, really improved, hope it's not a fluke. But his play look really solid. 10.Baby I like him lol. Better ? Can I have the job ? (I'm pretty close to the second power rank ever funnily enough)
My only disagreement is with Jaedong rating below Bisu, using essentially your own reasoning: both have looked mortal, Jaedong has gone far in leagues, and on top of all that Bisu has not shown the ability to go far in leagues for years now, unlike Jaedong who still has fresh medals.
Otherwise a great ranking altogether though I think Tyson is better than you give him credit for.
Wow didn't expect ZerO to be so low - but have to agree with all logic represented in this PR. You rock, flamewheel! In the probably most mind-fucking month for a power rank, still a very logical writeup ^_^
On February 01 2011 18:14 Evs wrote: Why is being hot in One league suddenly favored over the other? Sorry if I question you so much on this but I have a feeling that had it been any of the TaekBang LeeSang who had won a league then they wouldn't have been ranked under a player who Only has proleague wins to show. (Even if they did show average WL performance)
Maybe not. But that's because they didn't suck last month. Jumping from not being on the PR to #2 is almost unprecedented, and its not the First time someone who won a starleague isn't #1 either. Fantasy's achievement in the OSL is very well represented on this PR imo.
Well represented at #2 but my question is the qualifier for #1:
To be #1 Flash had to : perform well in WL (no participation in any other league)
Fantasy had to : get the OSL gold, and perform well in WL.
Being in 2 leagues actually worked against Fantasy here? Not advancing deep enough to participate in BOXs helped cement Flash's dominance in the scene? Because his BO1 record is enough to extrapolate the results of a BOX in an individual tournament?
Such a lopsided standard means that Flash only needs to be dominant in one league at any given time to continue staying on top then.
It's pretty unfair to simplicify it like that Evs. It's a hard thing to write a PR. You have to take into consideration that a PR is not only an achievement vs achievement list. It's a list where you put everything you have together and try to evaluate who is the strongest/hottest players right now.
Imo, fantasy is NOT the strongest player in BW right now. He'd probably be 4-5 on my rank. At the end of the day, since this is not 100% resultbased like ELO and KeSPA, PR will always be a matter of oppinion to some extent.
On February 01 2011 18:14 Evs wrote: Why is being hot in One league suddenly favored over the other? Sorry if I question you so much on this but I have a feeling that had it been any of the TaekBang LeeSang who had won a league then they wouldn't have been ranked under a player who Only has proleague wins to show. (Even if they did show average WL performance)
Maybe not. But that's because they didn't suck last month. Jumping from not being on the PR to #2 is almost unprecedented, and its not the First time someone who won a starleague isn't #1 either. Fantasy's achievement in the OSL is very well represented on this PR imo.
Well represented at #2 but my question is the qualifier for #1:
To be #1 Flash had to : perform well in WL (no participation in any other league)
Fantasy had to : get the OSL gold, and perform well in WL.
This is topped off with the extrapolation that since Flash is this good at BO1's then he would have defeated (Fantasy) others in a BoX series anway. Ergo Fantasy can't be higher than him...
With such a lopsided standard Flash only needs to be dominant in one league at any given time to continue staying on top. We can just assume how he fares in other tournaments based on a single league's play afterall.
I believe the difference is that in the last PR Flash was rank 5 and Fantasy was not even on CBNC. The power rank always uses the last month or two to ground itself. With this in mind Flash jumped 4 places while Fanta jumped up 8+. If Fanta was ranked last PR (which indicates that he had been playing well the last few months) I think you would see a big difference at the top. Similarly we could bash Stork for dropping 0-6 but when you frame it with what he's been doing the last few months all of a sudden he doesn't look quite as bad.
IMO I would've put JD at first, he doesn't feel the strongest but he's far along in the MSL and has a decent PL win rate. He's not had the strongest competition but out of everyone I think he looks the best from a Strength/Results in Leagues/Previous Rank sense. That said I can't really fault flamewheel for Flash at first, he has dominated WL against the strongest vT opponents thus far.
On February 02 2011 01:13 hacklebeast wrote: Bisu should be ranked over a player he lost 3 times to for the same reason stork should be ranked over a player he lost three times to (zero); because of the vast discrepancy in the quality of the other games. Somehow, you have managed to argue that losing six games actually helps stork, because it shows he can "rebound" Those 6 losses are huge, and you dismiss them because he managed to win a few games afterwards? Then why isn’t Reach on here? He broke an 11 game losing streak, must mean he will win the next OSL .
Stork defeats Bisu in head to head and in league advancement. His does NOT show a vast discrepancy in the quality of other games, and shows good play against other S-class (Beat JD and Bisu). His league knockouts are equally as ugly as Bisu's (or do you not remember Bisu being knocked out 0-2 and 0-2, unable to even make the Bo5 rounds). Both of them have similar records in Winners League. 10-1 for stork iirc (loss to PvP sniper Horang2's hardcounter build, wins over hydra, JD, bisu, Fantasy, reverse all kill of MBC). 15-2 for Bisu (losses to Flash and Stork IN TWO ACE MATCHES, 3 allkills, though the one over ACE is sort of easy, no wins over s-class, but some impressive wins). Overall, given that Stork equals or defeats Bisu in every category, Stork deserves his spot over Bisu.
I'm Fantasy fanboy, and still think that putting Flash above him is fine. Fantasy is not in top form, even if he won OSL. Hell, I think that during the time, when he was playing against Flash in WCG and MSL he was in much better shape than now.
On February 02 2011 02:31 StylishVODs wrote: It's pretty unfair to simplicify it like that Evs. It's a hard thing to write a PR. You have to take into consideration that a PR is not only an achievement vs achievement list. It's a list where you put everything you have together and try to evaluate who is the strongest/hottest players right now.
Flamewheel has been more than generous to Fantasy if we go by what the majority of posters in this thread had to say. That doesn't mean I won't criticize him for what I think is a flaw in the ranking's reasoning.
On February 02 2011 01:13 hacklebeast wrote: Bisu should be ranked over a player he lost 3 times to for the same reason stork should be ranked over a player he lost three times to (zero); because of the vast discrepancy in the quality of the other games. Somehow, you have managed to argue that losing six games actually helps stork, because it shows he can "rebound" Those 6 losses are huge, and you dismiss them because he managed to win a few games afterwards? Then why isn’t Reach on here? He broke an 11 game losing streak, must mean he will win the next OSL .
Stork defeats Bisu in head to head and in league advancement. His does NOT show a vast discrepancy in the quality of other games, and shows good play against other S-class (Beat JD and Bisu). His league knockouts are equally as ugly as Bisu's (or do you not remember Bisu being knocked out 0-2 and 0-2, unable to even make the Bo5 rounds). Both of them have similar records in Winners League. 10-1 for stork iirc (loss to PvP sniper Horang2's hardcounter build, wins over hydra, JD, bisu, Fantasy, reverse all kill of MBC). 15-2 for Bisu (losses to Flash and Stork IN TWO ACE MATCHES, 3 allkills, though the one over ACE is sort of easy, no wins over s-class, but some impressive wins). Overall, given that Stork equals or defeats Bisu in every category, Stork deserves his spot over Bisu.
bisu: 15-4 losses to #1 player (in elo) and #1 protoss (other than himself in elo)
stork 16-8 losses to #6, #7 #21 and # 35 (in elo)
Horang2 skews it a bit because his PvP is a lot better than his other stuff, but the point is clear. Bisu only lost to damn good people. Stork lost a lot (I dare to say most losses of the month, but I haven't checked that). he doesnt "defete" bisu in win percentage, he doesn't "defeat" Bisu in all kills, he doesn't "defeat" Bisu in quality of opponents (certainly not in the losses, but we can call it a wash overall if you want). If the power rankings are superpose to be about "hotness" or "fearsomeness", then all I can say is getting 3 all kills is fearsome, losing to horang2 is not.
And I'm not sure questioning the quality of the ace all-kill is a good idea, considering stork did some stat padding of his own with a Bo3 vs Hiya in his best MU (where he still managed to drop a game) and Bo5 vs Modesty.
On February 01 2011 18:14 Evs wrote: Why is being hot in One league suddenly favored over the other? Sorry if I question you so much on this but I have a feeling that had it been any of the TaekBang LeeSang who had won a league then they wouldn't have been ranked under a player who Only has proleague wins to show. (Even if they did show average WL performance)
Maybe not. But that's because they didn't suck last month. Jumping from not being on the PR to #2 is almost unprecedented, and its not the First time someone who won a starleague isn't #1 either. Fantasy's achievement in the OSL is very well represented on this PR imo.
Well represented at #2 but my question is the qualifier for #1:
To be #1 Flash had to : perform well in WL (no participation in any other league)
Fantasy had to : get the OSL gold, and perform well in WL.
Being in 2 leagues actually worked against Fantasy here? Not advancing deep enough to participate in BOXs helped cement Flash's dominance in the scene? Because his BO1 record is enough to extrapolate the results of a BOX in an individual tournament?
Such a lopsided standard means that Flash only needs to be dominant in one league at any given time to continue staying on top then.
It only worked against him because he performed poorly in winner's league. If he'd played better, it'd have helped his ranking.
As much as the Jaedong fanboy in me wants to see him placed higher, I have to agree. I'm worried about the Dong, he just hasn't been playing like he used to.
Whoa, it seems to be really hard to be a PR writer. Everyone wants their favorite player to be in the first place, but the PR is about who is the best player of the month, right? And those saying that Flash's place is undeserved, should see his recent games on youtube. He's been wining like he was playing against noobs (like his recent victory over Light). And he has defeated everybody on the league, including the rest of the players on the PR (unlike Bisu who still can't beat Stork).
Great diplomatic power rank. These are truly exciting times to be a fan of BW. I feel as though the top eight players on this ranking could all beat each other. So much talent has sprung up after the two horse race last summer.
On February 02 2011 01:13 hacklebeast wrote: Bisu should be ranked over a player he lost 3 times to for the same reason stork should be ranked over a player he lost three times to (zero); because of the vast discrepancy in the quality of the other games. Somehow, you have managed to argue that losing six games actually helps stork, because it shows he can "rebound" Those 6 losses are huge, and you dismiss them because he managed to win a few games afterwards? Then why isn’t Reach on here? He broke an 11 game losing streak, must mean he will win the next OSL .
Stork defeats Bisu in head to head and in league advancement. His does NOT show a vast discrepancy in the quality of other games, and shows good play against other S-class (Beat JD and Bisu). His league knockouts are equally as ugly as Bisu's (or do you not remember Bisu being knocked out 0-2 and 0-2, unable to even make the Bo5 rounds). Both of them have similar records in Winners League. 10-1 for stork iirc (loss to PvP sniper Horang2's hardcounter build, wins over hydra, JD, bisu, Fantasy, reverse all kill of MBC). 15-2 for Bisu (losses to Flash and Stork IN TWO ACE MATCHES, 3 allkills, though the one over ACE is sort of easy, no wins over s-class, but some impressive wins). Overall, given that Stork equals or defeats Bisu in every category, Stork deserves his spot over Bisu.
bisu: 15-4 losses to #1 player (in elo) and #1 protoss (other than himself in elo)
stork 16-8 losses to #6, #7 #21 and # 35 (in elo)
Horang2 skews it a bit because his PvP is a lot better than his other stuff, but the point is clear. Bisu only lost to damn good people. Stork lost a lot (I dare to say most losses of the month, but I haven't checked that). he doesnt "defete" bisu in win percentage, he doesn't "defeat" Bisu in all kills, he doesn't "defeat" Bisu in quality of opponents (certainly not in the losses, but we can call it a wash overall if you want). If the power rankings are superpose to be about "hotness" or "fearsomeness", then all I can say is getting 3 all kills is fearsome, losing to horang2 is not.
And I'm not sure questioning the quality of the ace all-kill is a good idea, considering stork did some stat padding of his own with a Bo3 vs Hiya in his best MU (where he still managed to drop a game) and Bo5 vs Modesty.
You are wrong in most of your opinions.
Stork indeed lost to Fantasy and Zero who are both 2nd best TvP and ZvP players right now and his loss to horang2 was a pure snipe The week when he played those games he had personal issues and not to mention Fantasy prepared so hard to counter Stork so much that he forgot how to play against other Protoss and Zero well he just plays most awesome SC out of all zerg in my opinion if he is on top of his game.
Bisu lost only Stork x3 and Flash but the quality of his oponents are indeed worse if you compare it with Stork and Flash oponents just on WL games. If you cant realise this then you have no idea about SC.
Bisu gets 3 AK ( but I dont think Ace AK should be counted lol -.- ) and Stork gets 1reverse AK. Now lets see ... Bisu gets played constanly in 1st or 2nd position on SKT and Stork was 4th/Ace every game he played so there is less chance for AK than for example Bisu. And not to mention SKT supporting players and even Fantasy kinda suck lately compared to KHAN.
And at last for you its better not to get far in SL and just own random scrubs in bo1 and lose to S class players in WL against going far in SL and lose badly against S oponents and still owning random scrubs + S class players in WL?
On February 01 2011 18:14 Evs wrote: Why is being hot in One league suddenly favored over the other? Sorry if I question you so much on this but I have a feeling that had it been any of the TaekBang LeeSang who had won a league then they wouldn't have been ranked under a player who Only has proleague wins to show. (Even if they did show average WL performance)
Maybe not. But that's because they didn't suck last month. Jumping from not being on the PR to #2 is almost unprecedented, and its not the First time someone who won a starleague isn't #1 either. Fantasy's achievement in the OSL is very well represented on this PR imo.
Well represented at #2 but my question is the qualifier for #1:
To be #1 Flash had to : perform well in WL (no participation in any other league)
Fantasy had to : get the OSL gold, and perform well in WL.
Being in 2 leagues actually worked against Fantasy here? Not advancing deep enough to participate in BOXs helped cement Flash's dominance in the scene? Because his BO1 record is enough to extrapolate the results of a BOX in an individual tournament?
Such a lopsided standard means that Flash only needs to be dominant in one league at any given time to continue staying on top then.
Nope, actually all fantasy had to do was not suck in every single game that wasn't the OSL finals. Even the games he won were absolute garbage.
i can totally understand flamewheel's logic... mostly if a i had to bet for one player against the others, i will surely put all my money on flash (actually on jd but just cuz im a fanboy), next on stork, next on jd, next on bisu and then fantasy... i just cant feel scared with fantasy. But you cant deny that fantasy won an OSL and that has to count for something (hence i understand flame's logic)...
under top 5 is just meaningless for me, my 2 fav players are top5 (stork, jd) so, good PR
For the most part, the play at the top is just beautiful right now. If JD bs snow had been in the finals instead of ro8, I woulda been super happy. But zvzvzvz is going to be a shitshow. Good job flamewheel!
Average ranking: 26.38 Average rating: 2113.83 (#12 > x > #13)
aaaaand the result is inconclusive. Rank or rating? You decide.
More fun:
Bisu's vs rank: #4 (2185) vs P, #7 (2178) vs T, #3 (2276) vs Z. Comparing ranks/ratings, Bisu would have been expected to lose 1 game against the opponents he faced (Flash, loss) but lost 4 (3 losses to Stork). 3 unpredicted losses.
Stork's vs rank: #17 (2100) vs P, #3 (2210) vs T, #5 (2186) vs Z. Comparing ranks/ratings, Stork would have been expected to lose 9 games against the opponents he faced* (Jaedong, win; fantasy, 1-3; Bisu, 3-0; Horang2, loss), but lost 8 (ZerO, 0-3, HiyA 1-1). 5 unpredicted wins, 4 unpredicted losses.
And I still have no idea. BUT - numbers!
* Not sure how to deal with fantasy here. His rating's clearly a little higher than it was due to the 3-0, but with a loss to Horang2 deflating it I'm not sure how much higher, so I'm avoiding speculation and just running with the numbers I've got.
Average ranking: 26.38 Average rating: 2113.83 (#12 > x > #13)
aaaaand the result is inconclusive. Rank or rating? You decide.
More fun:
Bisu's vs rank: #4 (2185) vs P, #7 (2178) vs T, #3 (2276) vs Z. Comparing ranks/ratings, Bisu would have been expected to lose 1 game against the opponents he faced (Flash, loss) but lost 4 (3 losses to Stork). 3 unpredicted losses.
Stork's vs rank: #17 (2100) vs P, #3 (2210) vs T, #5 (2186) vs Z. Comparing ranks/ratings, Stork would have been expected to lose 9 games against the opponents he faced* (Jaedong, win; fantasy, 1-3; Bisu, 3-0; Horang2, loss), but lost 8 (ZerO, 0-3, HiyA 1-1). 5 unpredicted wins, 4 unpredicted losses.
And I still have no idea. BUT - numbers!
* Not sure how to deal with fantasy here. His rating's clearly a little higher than it was due to the 3-0, but with a loss to Horang2 deflating it I'm not sure how much higher, so I'm avoiding speculation and just running with the numbers I've got.
^ That illustrates it perfectly. When it's so damn close, why not give it to the player who beat the other guy 3 times?
Average ranking: 26.38 Average rating: 2113.83 (#12 > x > #13)
aaaaand the result is inconclusive. Rank or rating? You decide.
More fun:
Bisu's vs rank: #4 (2185) vs P, #7 (2178) vs T, #3 (2276) vs Z. Comparing ranks/ratings, Bisu would have been expected to lose 1 game against the opponents he faced (Flash, loss) but lost 4 (3 losses to Stork). 3 unpredicted losses.
Stork's vs rank: #17 (2100) vs P, #3 (2210) vs T, #5 (2186) vs Z. Comparing ranks/ratings, Stork would have been expected to lose 9 games against the opponents he faced* (Jaedong, win; fantasy, 1-3; Bisu, 3-0; Horang2, loss), but lost 8 (ZerO, 0-3, HiyA 1-1). 5 unpredicted wins, 4 unpredicted losses.
And I still have no idea. BUT - numbers!
* Not sure how to deal with fantasy here. His rating's clearly a little higher than it was due to the 3-0, but with a loss to Horang2 deflating it I'm not sure how much higher, so I'm avoiding speculation and just running with the numbers I've got.
^ That illustrates it perfectly. When it's so damn close, why not give it to the player who beat the other guy 3 times?
I absolutely agree, like in football (soccer in US) qualifiers.
That's a pretty bold statement. I hope you were at least limiting that to just this thread -_-
I would like to argue that going 0-3 vs stork is rather similar to going 0-3 vs fantasy, as they are both fantastic players. If you could take that much of a step, than it is pretty obvious that bisu's 15-1, only losing to the best player in the world is better than storks 16-5. But I'm guessing that you will say that they are in no way similar because fantasy only won through vudu or something equally ridiculous. If you can see this logic, cool. If not, that's fine, just move on.
I started to type something about quality of opponents, but then noticed that there was someone above me who did a very nice job with it already + Show Spoiler +
(just one comment though, i don't think I like the use of "expected to win" as a meter stick (you may have not even ment it to be so, but because you quoted me directly, I am forced to assume so). Don't get me wrong, it is interesting, and probably would be something I would look at for other players if I did not have multiple midterms this week, but with that thought process, we could find some one like flying who "over preformed" a lot, but doesn't belong on the PR)
. I still argue that the level of competition is equal, and bisu had a better record through it.
I will admit, at first I thought stork was a clear #5, and after hearing other people, its is evident to me that it is a lot closer than I had thought. And I think it is a contest no mater what order you put your players in (although some are harder to argue than others)
And as a note about storks "personal problems," I like to think that progamers are adults, and more professional than to completely crumble like that. But even if they are not, extraneous factor are part of his play ability. Effort was on the PR when he retired, we shouldn't keep him there because of what might have happened if circumstantial details were different.
On February 02 2011 04:58 Inzek wrote: i just cant feel scared with fantasy. \
And thats a horrible error. While Flash is type of calculated bastard that you know exacly what you can expect, fantasy is type of raging psychopath you acctually dont know he will shot his own foot or blow up your head. Thats a reason he is infact underestimated, not overrated... More post I read here, it's getting more and more self evident.
Putting Flash as #1 makes one think that you don't value leagues that high -- but you still have Fanta as #2. That's inconsistent in a way - but it is also quite fare imo. Really good rank imo, even though I probably wouldn't rank top 5 the same way. Well written.
Looking forward to the two terrans in top dropping next month to be replaced by Jaedong and Hydra.
When I think about it, I wouldn't have Flash as #1 --- I think Stork should have held the spot for Jaedong this month, despite everything. Ah well, guess I'm the only one to think that.
personally i'd go with flash #1, stork #2 and bisu #3 with jaedong on 4 and fanta on 5.
Merely for his extremely lackluster performance in winner's league and having his only feat of strength be to win a finals of a starleague over stork (and let's face it, it's not as if that is a difficult thing to do, what with stork being a permanent resident of the kkong line).
On February 02 2011 06:23 StylishVODs wrote: hydra is seriously doing well lately. 19-2 zvz since he started playing well. HvZ incoming? :I
if you don't like zvz, atleast we get a gooood zvz in hydra vs jaedong.
Yeah... seriously. That series will probably be a lot of luck and BO's though - because can you play more efficient in ZvZ than Jaedong (17-3) and Hydra (18-2) have recently? I guess there is always a chance that Hydra will choke since he is quite new.
Flash #1 doesn't make sense to me. Bonking out of the two solo leagues is the most important thing, WL is something, but whatever at the same time. You brought up other people's rediculous WL record (Stork 10-1) yet he's #3 and was a finalist in OSL. Ironic.
Flamewheel your Shoutouts SUCK. Where the hell is MANTOSS?!
Actually they're good, but I need to see Mantoss make it up there. He won a game against Snow... which leaves me to question: Can *I* Beat Snow? Hell no. ^^
I won't argue that Flash at #1 is wrong (I've already said I'm fine with it) but all let's admit one thing: it is in large part due to his accomplishments in 2010. If you ignore his domination last year and just look at records this year he would be placed #4-5 along with Bisu. Placing him at #1 more or less requires assuming that he would maintain a close to 90% winrate even if he had to play 2x as many games this month. Now if anyone could do that it'd be Flash but it is not a given, mostly because of his wrist problems. He is playing well but we can't know how a much heavier schedule would affect him given his condition. Since he hasn't shown any weakness I'm fine with giving him the benefit of the doubt but let's not pretend that he's a clear number 1.
Goragoth I'm pretty sure everyone is aware that Flash is number one thanks alot to the benifit of the doubt he recieves after being the best BW player for a year straight. He's had much more consistent results than Stork, Bisu and Fantasy. Only JD really comes close in that regard..
I really don't see the problem extending the benifit of the doubt to the best player. Really who would pick Bisu over Flash in a best of? Sometimes you need to look at the hypotheticals and I'm sure next MSL/OSL Flash has another great shot at double titles, something I can't say for anyone else really. :/.
Bonking out of the two solo leagues is the most important thing
Lol, it was moths ago. PR rating created on per month basis or do you imply only ppl in star-league allowed in PR? Stop making holy cow from OSL & MSL leagues. It is just yet another competition where you can show off your skills nothing more.
I just read all of the power rank to the bottom and it seems like Jaedong has been at the top five since november 2007. That is over 3 years of being practically an S class player.
Why not? Stork: can't play BoX Bisu: can't play vs S-class Fanta: can't play without preparation So, #1 is Flash or JD. JD was a bit shaky in ZvP, while Flash showed some great games, so I dont see problem here. JD will take over MSL and will be placed at 1 spot.
I think the ranking looks fine, pretty similar to what I would have done. And if you'd ask 100 people to rank the top5 right now, you would probably get 100 different rankings. I am also quite relieved that you don't have 15 CBNC and 23 Shoutouts this month, I thought last month was pretty ridiculous.
However, I am not happy with your defensive style of writing. Every second sentence is some kind of defence whiy you did what you did. There really is no need to, I believe that is not the right way to present the PR.
I agree with Malinor above, there's no need to defend yourself so much. Everyone understands this was a tough choice, so just explain your reasoning and leave it at that The people who will bite your head off, i.e. the people you're defending yourself against, will bite your head off whether you apologize or not!
On February 01 2011 16:50 Severedevil wrote: It saddens me to see two Terrans at the top. But any ordering of the top five could've held, depending on your fanboyism or how you value different characteristics...
Flash Pros: Top WL record, won head-to-head matches with Bisu and Stork, dominating previous year Flash Cons: Worst league eliminations of TBLS (dropped out to scrubs + Kal), plays the most successful race Flash Mitigators: Eliminations were a while ago, and close together in time; maybe a 'fluke'.
Bisu Pros: Top WL record, triple back-to-back all-kills, plays the least successful race Bisu Cons: Early league elimination, lost most head-to-head matches Bisu Mitigators: Eliminated at the hands of strong players
Fantasy Pros: Won the fucking OSL 3-0 against the best PvT'er of all time Fantasy Cons: Comparatively weak Winner's League record, fucking terrible Bo5 against Calm, plays the most successful race Fantasy Mitigators: Had to prep for his Starleague, didn't get to play much WL except against players that defeated Bisu.
Stork Pros: Top WL record, OSL silver + MSL seed, plays the least successful race, most longevity of any relevant modern player Stork Cons: Lost 0-3 in two back-to-back Bo5s Stork Mitigators: Had to play two back-to-back Bo5s against extremely good ZvP/TvP players who could dedicate their time primarily to those series; can also be argued as a fluke due to close proximity of losses and successful WL play following those losses.
Jaedong Pros: Good WL record, favored to win MSL, dominating previous year (I still blame T>>Z maps for Flash's crowning as official Bonjwa over Jaedong) Jaedong Cons: Terrible loss to Violet, looking 'shaky' in ZvP, lost head-to-head matches
I would've favored Stork-->Jaedong-->Bisu-->Fantasy-->Flash because that's approximately my order of player preference, but... yeah.
Speaking of fanboyism....
I agree with the PR, considering these top 6 have hardly played each other it's hard to place them.
Hm interesting. Even as SKT fan I would say Fanta should be about 4th. His OSL win is great, but he's hardly doing anything else besides that. As for Flash as No.1, I guess I can't argue. He has been tearing up everything. Although I do think Bisu has been doing better than Stork lately (no not SKT bias) and they should probably be switched. JD I have to agree, he's just not showing his magic as much anymore.
Then again, I guess your all 5 can make a claim for No.1 makes sense.
Hydra definetely deserves his spot. He's probably the best player outside the Top 5. Snow and Zero also looked really good too.
On February 02 2011 09:47 dani_caliKorea wrote: JD is being overlooked in WL because his teammates have been stepping up. Whereas T1 fails except Bisu..
Getting 0-1'd twice (Violet and Stork) doesn't help. He'll probably be at the top of next PR though if this MSL works out for him (and he can maintain good performance in WL).
On February 02 2011 10:47 Holgerius wrote: Ya, I expect JD to win MSL and claim #1 next month.
Man will I jump in joy if Jaedong can win this MSL (because he'll have tied Nada's record for huge tournament wins or w/e). I think he should definitely be #1 next month if he wins MSL but we shall see ^^. I don't think he should be ranked 5 but whatever was a hard PR to make ^^.
Play crappy? His teammates have just been doing terribad whenever he plays before them and playing good whenever he is clearly waiting to play the role of the anchor.
Other than fantasy being a little higher than he should be, this is a very solid power rank. Its been a while since I've liked pretty much everyone in the top 10.
On February 02 2011 12:03 Holgerius wrote: JD hasn't even been close to being as bad as Fantasy in WL. He's 7-2 in it and is sitting comfortably above 2300 ELO.
I never said he is bad right now. I said "what if?" It's just taking things into consideration before claiming like he's certainly number 1.
On February 01 2011 17:10 corumjhaelen wrote: I would have placed Jaedong higher, and Fantasy lower, cause seriously, the only thing he has done well was his serie against Stork (great play against a psychologically weakened Stork unable to adapt). His play against Clam should score negative points, I still can't forgive him for that. I'd have gone with Jaedong/Flash Stork Bisu Fanta I guess. Can't really blame you though^^
Ahh I wish Ver were here. I actually forgot to quote Ver, but Ver really wanted me to put Fantasy at rank 1 before the SKT-KHAN match.
(5:47:04 AM) Ver uh (5:47:07 AM) Ver fantasy #1 obviously
Just throwin' the name out there^^
Ok, ok, I completely agree with Fanta placement then :p
On February 02 2011 17:04 Lightwip wrote: Meh, Bisu really needs to step it up and win both leagues and send Flash into his (starcraft) grave this coming month.
On February 02 2011 17:04 Lightwip wrote: Meh, Bisu really needs to step it up and win both leagues and send Flash into his (starcraft) grave this coming month.
PS. Hydra is 31-7 in his last 38 games.... 81% win jesus. Let's hope it just isn't a random fluke like Hyuk was when he did a similar record over like 35 games.
On February 02 2011 19:12 FabledIntegral wrote: Personally, I would have done....
Flash Bisu Jaedong Fantasy Stork Hydra
PS. Hydra is 31-7 in his last 38 games.... 81% win jesus. Let's hope it just isn't a random fluke like Hyuk was when he did a similar record over like 35 games.
Really Hyuk having 80 % winrate in 35 games ? ... I won't believe that even if i see it .
On February 02 2011 19:12 FabledIntegral wrote: Personally, I would have done....
Flash Bisu Jaedong Fantasy Stork Hydra
PS. Hydra is 31-7 in his last 38 games.... 81% win jesus. Let's hope it just isn't a random fluke like Hyuk was when he did a similar record over like 35 games.
Really Hyuk having 80 % winrate in 35 games ? ... I won't believe that even if i see it .
On February 02 2011 18:52 Navane wrote: Flash is 12-1 with nothing in SL Stork is 10-1 with a semis and finals appearance in SL Bisu is 15-2 with nothing in SL
Your argumentation does not make sense.
arguing like that would put stork at a comfortable #1 of the trio.
putting it like that though takes no insight whatsoever to how the games actually played out. That is PURELY result based analysis and will surely be displayed in KeSPA.
If you're going to simplify it like that I might aswell write something like this: Flash - Dominated this month Stork - Lost horribly this month Bisu - Dominated this month
this would be the other way around. Stork would be at #3 of the trio.
Please don't try to oversimplify this PR. It was a hard one and obviously alot more than JUST results are taken into consideration to display a rank of the most powerful starcraft players right now.
Wait, so Bisu losing 0-3 to the best PvP-er around, 0-1 to the best TvP-er around is worse than going 0-3 to the SECOND best TvP-er and 0-3 to the SECOND best ZvP-er? Not to mention a worse WL record. Jesus, I can't understand that kind of reasoning.
On February 02 2011 20:35 Storm[PT] wrote: Wait, so Bisu loses 0-3 to the best PvP-er around, 0-1 to the best TvP-er around. Is worse than going 0-3 to the SECOND best TvP-er and 0-3 to the SECOND best ZvP-er? Not to mention a worse WL record. Jesus, I can't understand that kind of reasoning.
"Here's a disclaimer: remember that this isn't a "real" 4 placement."
On February 02 2011 19:12 FabledIntegral wrote: Personally, I would have done....
Flash Bisu Jaedong Fantasy Stork Hydra
PS. Hydra is 31-7 in his last 38 games.... 81% win jesus. Let's hope it just isn't a random fluke like Hyuk was when he did a similar record over like 35 games.
Really Hyuk having 80 % winrate in 35 games ? ... I won't believe that even if i see it .
That is not even close to Hydra's streak. And also, unlike when Hyuk won a lot, when watching Hydra at the moment I don't feel that there is much luck or buildorder gambling involved. During that streak Hyuk beat a lot of Protosses with Hydra busts and a lot of Terrans (if that was this time) with 2-Hatch-Muta-Ling breaks or similar strategies. Not that there is anything wrong with that, Hydra does it too. But Hydra also plays Standard games and just wins them because of his sense for strategy, Micro and Macro.
So I don't think that Hydra's streak is a fluke. I think he is just a damn good player.
On February 02 2011 20:35 Storm[PT] wrote: Wait, so Bisu losing 0-3 to the best PvP-er around, 0-1 to the best TvP-er around is worse than going 0-3 to the SECOND best TvP-er and 0-3 to the SECOND best ZvP-er? Not to mention a worse WL record. Jesus, I can't understand that kind of reasoning.
Edit: Typos.
Uhh how is Stork the best PvP-er around. If anything, it's his PvP that's been failing him lately - according to elo, stork's the SEVENTH best PvP.
Also, worse WL record?
10-1 (91%) v 15-2 (88%), with 91 being stork, isn't exactly worse WL record..
tl;dr Bisu - 0-3 v 7th best PvP, 0-1 to best TvP Stork - 0-3 2nd best TvP, 0-3 2nd best ZvP Pretty similar here. Stork PL > Bisu PL
Your argument is fallacious at every turn, especially if you factor in the head-to-head being in Stork's favor, too.
On February 02 2011 20:49 okum wrote: Power Rank: A + B + C > X + Y + Z
Fanboy: but A > X is wrong !!!
See the fallacy here?
This man is speaking truth. Well said!
I agree. You can't simply look at one variable when deciding the strength of a player. You may have different oppinions, but please don't simplify it with showing some simple stats.
I also agree that you shouldn't write so much defending the ranks you put flamewheel. But somehow you have to put it out there that it's a close call. But it's still a call. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for elaboration of fantasy at #2, which I personally think is too high based on the "power" of a player. Whenever he's described as an opponent in "resultcomparisons" he's described as "the second best blah vs blah". As for TvZ he's not even the second best.
If he's the second best at everything in peoples eyes, he should not be the #1 PR should he? I very seldom hear: "Yeah well he beat fantasy which is the #1 TvX. The one player who is #1 TvP TvZ and TvT is Flash, and thats why he is ranked above.
As for climbing ranks. Fantasy climbed more than 8 ranks for his win since he wasn't even cbnc last month and have a problem with consistancy. So he was really rewarded for it and personally as I've said before I think he's way too high. I'd put him at 5.
Jaedong is 'beatable' so he's down in 5th. Hrmm. Flash is 'beatable' too. That's why he's in neither Starleague. I guess you can only go by games played though and he's been beating people in Winners League so yeah.
On February 02 2011 22:44 infinity2k9 wrote: Jaedong is 'beatable' so he's down in 5th. Hrmm. Flash is 'beatable' too. That's why he's in neither Starleague.
I think Jaedong should have been abit higher. But lets face it, Flash didn't look very beatable this month. He lost those games in december. Jaedong looked beatable this month, flash looked unbeatable this month and there's the difference. Still, jaedong is getting results and I don't think we have to be that worried about him.
On February 02 2011 22:44 infinity2k9 wrote: Jaedong is 'beatable' so he's down in 5th. Hrmm. Flash is 'beatable' too. That's why he's in neither Starleague.
I think Jaedong should have been abit higher. But lets face it, Flash didn't look very beatable this month. He lost those games in december. Jaedong looked beatable this month, flash looked unbeatable this month and there's the difference. Still, jaedong is getting results and I don't think we have to be that worried about him.
If Stork didn't advance in any starleague he would look unbeatable too, and I'm almost 100% sure he would have had a better PL record too by now.
I think the current PvZ situation has made him look more vulnerable than he really is, Z's having a bit of trouble in general. Then again MSL shows they all went through so maybe not.
at first i was angry at you for putting flash so far above bisu (since bisu did an all kill 3 times in a row, and has won more) but your reasoning makes sense.
On February 02 2011 22:44 infinity2k9 wrote: Jaedong is 'beatable' so he's down in 5th. Hrmm. Flash is 'beatable' too. That's why he's in neither Starleague.
I think Jaedong should have been abit higher. But lets face it, Flash didn't look very beatable this month. He lost those games in december. Jaedong looked beatable this month, flash looked unbeatable this month and there's the difference. Still, jaedong is getting results and I don't think we have to be that worried about him.
If Stork didn't advance in any starleague he would look unbeatable too, and I'm almost 100% sure he would have had a better PL record too by now.
Sure, we can only judge from what we see and think we know. If you advance you have the chance to show your skills in yet another league, but he showed that he can lose horrible 0-3's in BoX.
He is on nine-game losing streak and although it began with losses to top players, beatdowns from hands of Perfectman, Hero and Roro wouldn't ever happen to old good Leta. Dude, c'mon!
He scored couple of wins in January, but his complete inability to at least put up a good fight against decent opponents makes me rage. Also, losing to ggaemo and Frozen shouldn't ever happen.
He is on nine-game losing streak and although it began with losses to top players, beatdowns from hands of Perfectman, Hero and Roro wouldn't ever happen to old good Leta. Dude, c'mon!
He scored couple of wins in January, but his complete inability to at least put up a good fight against decent opponents makes me rage. Also, losing to ggaemo and Frozen shouldn't ever happen.
I disagree with your ranking of fantasy. He needs to be lower. While he did destroy Stork, he's been near-tanking it for him team in WL. 6-6 with three straight losses as his ELO continues to dip well below his peak he achieved in December. I almost think Stork is far too high, as well. He gets massacred in two Bo5s in both leagues. He looked so bad in the OSL finals. Le sigh... Then again, if you ranked Stork below Bisu, people would say, "Hey! But Stork beat Bisu in WL AND back in MSL Ro16!" If you rank fantasy below Stork, they'll say, "Hey, remember the OSL finals? You should take a look!" If you rank Jaedong too high, "He hasn't beaten anyone great all year!" Indeed, I don't envy your position, but you did manage to rank players in the least controversial way possible. Except for the fact that fantasy's is indeed too high
On February 02 2011 19:12 FabledIntegral wrote: Personally, I would have done....
Flash Bisu Jaedong Fantasy Stork Hydra
PS. Hydra is 31-7 in his last 38 games.... 81% win jesus. Let's hope it just isn't a random fluke like Hyuk was when he did a similar record over like 35 games.
Really Hyuk having 80 % winrate in 35 games ? ... I won't believe that even if i see it .
That is not even close to Hydra's streak. And also, unlike when Hyuk won a lot, when watching Hydra at the moment I don't feel that there is much luck or buildorder gambling involved. During that streak Hyuk beat a lot of Protosses with Hydra busts and a lot of Terrans (if that was this time) with 2-Hatch-Muta-Ling breaks or similar strategies. Not that there is anything wrong with that, Hydra does it too. But Hydra also plays Standard games and just wins them because of his sense for strategy, Micro and Macro.
So I don't think that Hydra's streak is a fluke. I think he is just a damn good player.
90% sure Hyuk's streak was better than that, imma look it up later.
The earliest: July/August 2008. 3-0 against Shine, Luxury, magma, then proceeds to roflstomp through both prelims for a 15-2 total record... before crashing out 1-2 against Pure in his first OSL match.
The next: in July-September 2009. Riding a 4-games Proleague streak - including a win over Jaedong - Hyuk rips up the prelims again, then beats Jaedong (again) and EffOrt and Kwanro in Proleague, with a final tally of 22-5. He's then stopped in his first OSL match, 1-2 against Pure.
And again: in April 2010. Starting with wins over Puma and fOrGG, Hyuk puts together a 16-3 run through the middle of June (including OSL prelims this time) before going back to being smacked around in Proleague.
I think you would have to put Flash as either 1st or 4th. It really depends on if you discount him not being in any of the single player leagues. If you discount what he is doing since he has "less to worry about" so to speak, then I think the rank should go the following: JD/Fantasy, Stork, Flash, Bisu. However, if you think that is in the past and you see him as unstoppable (which he does look right now, tbh) then the rank should be the following: Flash, JD/Fantasy, Stork, Bisu.
If Stork would have won just 1 of those 2 series or they been close, I think he would be a shoe in for top slot. However, he went out in rather bad fashion so he obviously falls. He is still ahead of Bisu since he is crushing him head to head.
As for JD, his numbers are still pretty good and he is still moving through the MSL. He may not have played perfect in that Snow series but he found a way to win and Snow looked like he was the love child of Bisu and Stork. Oz has been playing better overall so we have seen less playtime from JD. He does have a couple WL losses but I'm not too concerned considering they were against Protoss and he just won a tough ZvP series. I really think JD should have been somewhere between #1 and #3.
Fantasy won the OSL. That is a huge achievement. Yes, he didn't have to face Flash or JD in a series, but he beat who they put in front of him and he did crush Stork. That alone could have put him in the #1 spot tbh. However, his WL performance has not been exceptional so I see the why people have concerns.
If you look at the power rank as "who is the most fearsome player atm" than I would put Flash on top. However, if you look at the achievements in that month, combination of WL/OSL/MSL, I really think Fantasy should have been given the nod. I do think Flash should be penalized for not being in either single player league (through January).
My personal list: Fantasy, JD, Stork, Flash, Bisu.
On February 03 2011 05:27 chameleonism wrote: I think you would have to put Flash as either 1st or 4th. It really depends on if you discount him not being in any of the single player leagues. If you discount what he is doing since he has "less to worry about" so to speak, then I think the rank should go the following: JD/Fantasy, Stork, Flash, Bisu. However, if you think that is in the past and you see him as unstoppable (which he does look right now, tbh) then the rank should be the following: Flash, JD/Fantasy, Stork, Bisu.
If Stork would have won just 1 of those 2 series or they been close, I think he would be a shoe in for top slot. However, he went out in rather bad fashion so he obviously falls. He is still ahead of Bisu since he is crushing him head to head.
As for JD, his numbers are still pretty good and he is still moving through the MSL. He may not have played perfect in that Snow series but he found a way to win and Snow looked like he was the love child of Bisu and Stork. Oz has been playing better overall so we have seen less playtime from JD. He does have a couple WL losses but I'm not too concerned considering they were against Protoss and he just won a tough ZvP series. I really think JD should have been somewhere between #1 and #3.
Fantasy won the OSL. That is a huge achievement. Yes, he didn't have to face Flash or JD in a series, but he beat who they put in front of him and he did crush Stork. That alone could have put him in the #1 spot tbh. However, his WL performance has not been exceptional so I see the why people have concerns.
If you look at the power rank as "who is the most fearsome player atm" than I would put Flash on top. However, if you look at the achievements in that month, combination of WL/OSL/MSL, I really think Fantasy should have been given the nod. I do think Flash should be penalized for not being in either single player league (through January).
My personal list: Fantasy, JD, Stork, Flash, Bisu.
Yeah, I've always viewed the power rank as "who came out of this month as the most dominating?" which is essentially the same thing. Fantasy just doesn't feel dominating atm, just overall quite good, which is why he should def be on it in a respectable position, but the Flash/Stork/Jaedong/Bisu all feel scarier than him.
I think it's pretty amazing that flamewheel came up with a list that a significant minority agrees with. There are good arguments for most of the 120 permutations for top 5 and even some where Hydra makes it and someone gets left out.
It might feel like the three spots between Flash and Bisu is too much. But that doesn't have to mean a big difference in power. It's just that the field is more competitive than ever. 5 month ago the difference between number 1 and 2 and number 2 and 3 were bigger than the difference between 1 and 5 now.
Four, actually. ChRh had a 39 - 25 record (60.94%) when he retired, but I missed him before. I haven't found any other Terrans with particularly high lifetime averages against Protoss, though.
Yeah, that Fantasy is one of the better TvP players out there we have known quite a while. Saying that he's the best is pretty bold though.
I feel that TvP is actually Flash's best matchup right now. TvT, he usually wins but many of the games are closer than they should have to be. Maybe thats because of TvT nature but I still feel much safer and certain that he's going to win a TvP these days.
Despite the stats, I'd rank his matchups TvP > TvZ > TvT
In the last 50 TvP games.
Flash 42-8 (85%) Fantasy 33-17 (65%)
The difference is pretty significant if you ask me and this is just comparing records.
Did you know Hiya was actually 60% in TvP for a period? Then for some reason he sucked at it. He still shows signs of it now and again.
On February 03 2011 05:26 ninini wrote: I think Hydra is already better than Jaedong at this point. When he wins the MSL, you'll see. Can't wait seeing Hydra take on Flash.
This is ridiculous tbh. What Terran's has Hydra beaten of any note at all? I think you are going to be bitterly disappointed when Flash completely rolls Hydra if they meet. Just because a Z can ZvP does not mean he can ZvT, i think we can all see that by now surely. ZvT is probably the hardest consistent matchup there is, just try to think of any ZvT specialists. Yarnc? That's basically it.
Sure we saw him beat Bisu fairly easily in the recent WL match. I also remember when Shine beat Bisu easily twice and raped Stork with a mutalisk-only build. I remember Hero consistently beating Bisu with his heavy macro style. EffOrt had a winning record Vs Flash for the year but was repeatedly losing to Light and other Terrans.
HiyA's TvP used to be gosu. Not the vulture madness fantasy kills people with, and not Flash's perfection, but when he's on HiyA's got a star sense in the matchup, it's fantastic. /fanboy
I'm not sure about Hydra. Right now I think his overall ZvP is better than Jaedong's current ZvP, but I also think he would have lost vs. Snow if he had played Snow and Snow had played that well against him. (Very hypothetical, I realize.) Given how far below Jaedong's ELO Hydra is in every category, and even allowing for the fact that as a new player if he's very good he's at a timing disadvantage, I think it's too soon to be calling Hydra better - or even as good as - JD. Not ridiculous, but too soon.
On February 03 2011 11:39 infinity2k9 wrote: Did you know Hiya was actually 60% in TvP for a period? Then for some reason he sucked at it. He still shows signs of it now and again.
On February 03 2011 05:26 ninini wrote: I think Hydra is already better than Jaedong at this point. When he wins the MSL, you'll see. Can't wait seeing Hydra take on Flash.
This is ridiculous tbh. What Terran's has Hydra beaten of any note at all? I think you are going to be bitterly disappointed when Flash completely rolls Hydra if they meet. Just because a Z can ZvP does not mean he can ZvT, i think we can all see that by now surely. ZvT is probably the hardest consistent matchup there is, just try to think of any ZvT specialists. Yarnc? That's basically it.
Sure we saw him beat Bisu fairly easily in the recent WL match. I also remember when Shine beat Bisu easily twice and raped Stork with a mutalisk-only build. I remember Hero consistently beating Bisu with his heavy macro style. EffOrt had a winning record Vs Flash for the year but was repeatedly losing to Light and other Terrans.
It does obviously punish players who played well past their prime, but I think the overall skew of the racial balance, with T & P seemingly equally dominating vT (perhaps T slightly more), T dominating vZ, and Z dominating vP, along with the relative weakness of Z in vT, P in vZ, and T in vP reflects the general consensus about which match-ups are strongest / weakest for each race nicely.
I find it equally interesting that on these top twenty lists the lowest winning percentages are against Protoss and the highest are against Zerg. Which also supports the Terran-is-strongest theory, incidentally. But it's interesting that Zerg > Protoss isn't as pronounced - if we call this a fair measure - as Terran > Zerg, even though ZvP is often thought of as the most imbalanced matchup. (Though this year's proleague is playing merry hell with that concept as well.)
On February 03 2011 14:24 Holgerius wrote: Can we like not have SC2-style balance discussions?
And why not? Unless you claim BW is perfectly balanced in which case I ask you to prove it because historically at the very highest level of the game this has not been true. Especially Protoss has been utterly shafted when it comes to the number of gold medals won. It is a simple fact and it's interesting. Why stick our heads in the sand and ignore it?
On February 03 2011 14:24 Holgerius wrote: Can we like not have SC2-style balance discussions?
And why not? Unless you claim BW is perfectly balanced in which case I ask you to prove it because historically at the very highest level of the game this has not been true. Especially Protoss has been utterly shafted when it comes to the number of gold medals won. It is a simple fact and it's interesting. Why stick our heads in the sand and ignore it?
I'll claim that BW is close enough to perfect balance that we cannot tell the difference. The imbalance present in any given map pool is large enough to render any racial imbalance (if it exists) unnoticeable. Mapmakers have made maps that favor Protoss, Terran, or Zerg. The map pool in any given league is likely to favor or disfavor a race because of accidents in map design. The game is balanced, sometimes the maps aren't.
In my opinion, everything before the S-class level is as close to balanced as possible, and rarely is it heavily influenced by the metagame. I mean, ICCup stats for most maps are 49-51% in most MUs. S-class throughout history has been a different story though. Discussing imbalance at that level is perfectly acceptable.
On February 03 2011 14:24 Holgerius wrote: Can we like not have SC2-style balance discussions?
And why not? Unless you claim BW is perfectly balanced in which case I ask you to prove it because historically at the very highest level of the game this has not been true. Especially Protoss has been utterly shafted when it comes to the number of gold medals won. It is a simple fact and it's interesting. Why stick our heads in the sand and ignore it?
Because nothing is gonna happen about it. Blizzard will never release another patch to BW, so there is literally nothing to gain from whining about ''imbalance'', nothing productive will come out of it.
And I do not think there is much of an inherent imbalance to speak of. People whine about how ZvP is an imbalanced MU, yet I see Bisu lolrape every fucking Zerg he is pitted against, sitting at a (roughly) 70% winrate over his career and a winning record vs the greatest Zerg (who is still the best vPer ever in terms of ELO peak) of all time. Whatever slight imbalance there may be, you can most definitely overcome it if you are good enough.
What is slightly more interesting and merits discussion is indeed map balance talk since the map pool is continously changed and updated, but I personally think that type of discussions are overdone as well.
Let me clarify my post a little bit. I actually was going to write about maps specifically but I was in a bit of a hurry.
Firstly, saying that maps are the thing that causes imbalance is an interesting discussion but it acknowledges that imbalances can exist. Maps are very much part of the game. I'm not interested in assigning blame; I don't care if Blizzard is at fault or the map makers are. We've certainly seen that maps can break the game (Battle Royal anyone?) so it's a good place to start looking. On the other hand we've seen top players beat map imbalances before (SaviOr on several T>>Z maps, Jaedong on Katrina, Flash versus Protoss on Katrina) so there certainly is a question if that's all it is.
Furthermore, when I said "at the very highest levels of the game" I was talking about the S-Class, and maybe those borderline S-Class players, i.e. the top 2-5 players at any given time. They are the ones that win the vast majority of the medals and that receive most of the attention. At the lower levels I agree that it is mostly balanced and looking at the overall stats tends to reflect that. In fact at the lowest levels of the game (low ranks on ICCUP) Protoss tend to do very well, the exact opposite from what we see at S-Class level.
As for Bisu, he's an enigma. I agree that he proves that imbalances can be overcome but it doesn't prove they don't exist in the first place. He's by far the most successful Protoss player in the history of the game and yet he still only has 3 gold medals, equal to JulyZerg who is only the third most successful Zerg (in terms of golds) or Boxer, the fourth most successful Terran. I won't say that it is conclusive proof that imbalances exist, perhaps we just haven't seen any Protoss players as gifted as best Terran and Zerg players, but I don't think it does any good to dismiss imbalances out of hand (though simply whining about Terran imba or Zerg imba or whatever the flavour of the month certainly doesn't do any good either).
Since he pretty much proves that imbalances can be overcome, I think it's far more interesting to talk about the players actual skill and not balance.
I do not like how the words ''luck'' and ''imba'' are used so often as excuses after someone loses. You can almost always point out flaws in the play, mistakes and things the player could've done a lot better after a loss. Like that guy in the KT LR thread the other day who went like ''TvZ so imba, there is nothing Zerg can do'' after the game between Action and Sea despite the fact that Action played like an absolute ass-hat during the the entire late-game.
Focusing on balance talk is focusing on the wrong thing IMO. It's completely uninteresting and generally has to do with fanboys being butt-hurt.
What I found interesting about the conversation was the notion of players who overcome those general imbalances. Hiya was mentioned as a player who occasionally shows sparks of that in his vT (and he's still over 55% against Protoss, which if you look at Terran players in general, is a pretty enormous accomplishment), and Yarnc mentioned as a vT specialist (same thing for Zerg players against T).
I didn't mean to be talking about balance as an end in itself, but as a way to provide context to the accomplishment of overcoming that general imbalance.
I do agree that the imbalance is fairly minor - the match-ups are generally in the 51 - 53% over the course of professional Brood War's lifetime, right? That's more balanced than chess ("Statistics compiled since 1851 support this view, showing that White consistently wins slightly more often than Black, usually scoring between 52 and 56 percent," on Wikipedia), after all.
On February 03 2011 16:39 Holgerius wrote: Since he pretty much proves that imbalances can be overcome, I think it's far more interesting to talk about the players actual skill and not balance.
I do not like how the words ''luck'' and ''imba'' are used so often as excuses after someone loses. You can almost always point out flaws in the play, mistakes and things the player could've done a lot better after a loss. Like that guy in the KT LR thread the other day who went like ''TvZ so imba, there is nothing Zerg can do'' after the game between Action and Sea despite the fact that Action played like an absolute ass-hat during the the entire late-game.
Focusing on balance talk is focusing on the wrong thing IMO. It's completely uninteresting and generally has to do with fanboys being butt-hurt.
Your arguments would carry a lot more weight coming from a Protoss fan than one of the biggest Terran fans on the site (I'll refrain from using the word "fanboy" since name calling doesn't do any good and you're usually very civil in your posts). It's always easier to dismiss something that affects you positively.
Furthermore, it's not like the imbalances are overwhelming. If a map is 60% favoured to one race over another, the other race will still win 40% of the time, which will be quite often. It still doesn't mean that the map is balanced. Heck, a Terran managed to beat a Zerg on Battle Royal twice, are you going to tell me that map wasn't a horrible mess, and you'd be ok to revive it as a ProLeague map?
I agree there's a lot whining (I've been known to do that on occasion too, in the heat of watching a live game where the player I was cheering for lost) and it's usually unjustified. Certainly in the Sea/Action game we can blame Action for playing badly. In fact I don't think you can ever blame imbalance for a single loss, it's something that only shows itself when you look at the statistics over a large sample.
I have one last question for you, do you really think that the quality of the very best Protoss players has been lower skill-wise than that of the best Terrans and Zerg? Because we already know that they've much less successful overall and if the game and maps were perfectly balanced they should be much closer in medal count than they are.
The amount of inconsistency hurts my head so much.
Flash had almost as good of a week last month, then drops from #1 to #5
This month, he's STILL not in any individuals and goes up from #5 to #1. If anything I'd say Flash should have been #1 last month and dropped to #2 or 3 THIS month. Fantasy wins an OSL in great fashion but has been pretty awful in winners league, which is why putting flash over him is reasonable, but Stork has been doing great in winners league and his only blemish was losing to oov's builds.
Then you have Bisu, who is ALSO not in any individual leagues, but went 15-2 with 3 all kills, I don't even like him but he should be ahead of Fantasy by your logic. It's too bad that OSL Finals were the only prominent match going on since MSL is still so far behind and w'eve just been chillin in league games because in all honesty, Fantasy should be #3 or 4 with how bad he's been in winners league, you say its because he's faced some good vT opponents, well so has Flash, GOOD players face GOOD players against their race. Yet Fantasy can't seem to handle it. He lost to Zero, ggaemo, and the grandaddy of them all, JAEHOON. Come on man.
Is PR meant to predict who will be best in the upcoming month, or who had the best current month. Becuase if its the latter, we should see Flash and Bisu at top 2, with Jaedong next then i guess Fantasy followed by Stork, who both made one finals and have been underwhelming otherwise. (Although Storks early January blew Fantasys out of the water)
Seems like the writer of PR just puts whoever has had the best last two weeks of the month, as opposed to who had the best months overall.
TheHunksta, I think thats very unfair. Lets take your Flash example, Flash did NOT have as good of a month last month, he lost to SSak, Hyuk, Classic and Kal. This month he only lost to Zero once and is 12-1 overall with wins against pretty much every player in the top 10.
Flamewheel had a really though job, states clearly that there are 5 viable candidates and that the difference between them is so small there might as well not be a difference. No matter what there are arguments for putting the top 5 in any order.
1) Flash - absolutely terrifying right now 2) Bisu - similarly scary, but he can and does drop the occasional game to other S-rankers 3) Stork - his autowin build has probably been cracked but he's good enough to bounce back 4) Jaedong - seems mortal but he's still stringing together a solid winrate 5) Fantasy - won OSL, pretty mediocre otherwise, not gonna lie
Nice PR, but there is no need for the whole 1.1, 1.2 thing because the PR is a ranking system. It ranks players according to their skill. This means that even if the player is in, say 3rd, it means they are the third most skilled in the top 3 players.^^
On February 03 2011 20:38 ReketSomething wrote: flamewheel how the fuck do you right so much O_O
nice PR and very timely ^^
Because he can spell write.
jk
Flash has a lot going for him, but I'd still be hesitant to put him at first because he has a smaller workload to achieve similar results. Also, his carpal tunnel syndrome should count against his "scariness"; he is probably much less scary in a long game now because of simple physical endurance.
I kind of don't like ZerO over SnOw. SnOw seemed a lot more impressive than ZerO as of late, where the former has gone on to be a consistent player for his team in WL as well as achieve some notable individual successes whilst all I can think of for ZerO is him (and SoulKey) constantly getting rolled by the likes of Bisu and FanTaSy with the only notable occurence of ZerO presently would be his 3-0 smashing of Stork (though Stork is historically inconsistent at PvZ).
Not to say that I dislike ZerO, I still think that he's really the second best Zerg on the scene (Hydra is gradually changing that however) but I personally wasn't anymore impressed by his most recent games anymore than I was of SnOw.
Great PR nonetheless though. It's been a while since I've seen Jaedong so far from the top three slots; I wonder when he'll start stepping it up again because the man really needs a recharge to keep going at the rate he's going).
The percentage chart is interesting view into specialist players, also the lack of active Zerg's overall. Currently only Jaedong is even in the top ELO's for vT and vZ except for Kwanro in vZ. And where is he anyway? Even against vP surprisingly only Calm and ZerO are there as active players in what's considering the most imba matchup (and i'd agree usually). Yet we got an all Z MSL final 4, and wasn't that long ago since the Calm Vs Kwanro MSL. Weird really.
Also i agree with Soulkey possibly becoming a vT specialist. Really impressed by his games. Yarncs ZvT record pains me how he and Lux did what they did. I liked them both. I think Yarnc could probably add a couple of games to his wins if it wasn't for throwing (wasn't one against go.go? Maybe was Lux).
OK, I think this ranking is fine. Except for one thing.
Fantasy deserves like... 10th place. Sure he won the OSL. But I watched that series vs. Calm, and was as close as I'll ever get to gouging my eyes out. Seriously, there are regular levels of fail, and then there are things that they fail so hard that they are once again awesome, and then there was that series. It is the Plan 9 From Outer Space of the past month.
Personally I dont see flash at #1.. I think its between Bisu and Fantasy and Flash out of them all I gotta give it to Fantasy followed by flash then Bisu. Its the February Power ranking Stork did well but not well enough to out do Bisu in January. JD is doing well but I agree he seems mortal and Snow games seemed harsh for him to win. Rest is fine i guessss, Im very critical.
On February 04 2011 07:15 infinity2k9 wrote: The percentage chart is interesting view into specialist players, also the lack of active Zerg's overall. Currently only Jaedong is even in the top ELO's for vT and vZ except for Kwanro in vZ. And where is he anyway? Even against vP surprisingly only Calm and ZerO are there as active players in what's considering the most imba matchup (and i'd agree usually). Yet we got an all Z MSL final 4, and wasn't that long ago since the Calm Vs Kwanro MSL. Weird really.
Also i agree with Soulkey possibly becoming a vT specialist. Really impressed by his games. Yarncs ZvT record pains me how he and Lux did what they did. I liked them both. I think Yarnc could probably add a couple of games to his wins if it wasn't for throwing (wasn't one against go.go? Maybe was Lux).
I should clarify; I only counted players with at least 33 wins in the individual categories, and 100 wins overall. There are actually Zerg players like Hydra (61% vT, 57% vZ, 59% vP), or Shine (64% vZ), Soulkey (60% vZ and vP), etc. that just don't have enough games yet. Same thing is true of some newer Protoss and Terran players, like Bogus (~57 - 60% in everything), TurN (~70% vZ... with only 11 games played), Snow (63% vT), Horang2 (67.5% vP), Stats (55 - 57% in everything), and others.
I just thought that 100 wins was a good start for counting overall win-rate, and when I decided to start figuring out for each match-up, 33 per individual match-up made sense if I was using 100 as the cut-off for the overall.
On February 04 2011 05:16 HitoriTomoyo wrote: I kind of don't like ZerO over SnOw. SnOw seemed a lot more impressive than ZerO as of late, where the former has gone on to be a consistent player for his team in WL as well as achieve some notable individual successes whilst all I can think of for ZerO is him (and SoulKey) constantly getting rolled by the likes of Bisu and FanTaSy with the only notable occurence of ZerO presently would be his 3-0 smashing of Stork (though Stork is historically inconsistent at PvZ).
Not to say that I dislike ZerO, I still think that he's really the second best Zerg on the scene (Hydra is gradually changing that however) but I personally wasn't anymore impressed by his most recent games anymore than I was of SnOw.
Great PR nonetheless though. It's been a while since I've seen Jaedong so far from the top three slots; I wonder when he'll start stepping it up again because the man really needs a recharge to keep going at the rate he's going).
Let's be fair to Zero and look at his matchlist last month:
He may be 8-6, but that includes:
3 games vs Stork (all W) 1 vs Flash (W) 1 vs Jaedong (L) 1 vs Fantasy (W) 1 vs Bisu (L) 1 vs Sea (W) 3 vs Soulkey (WLW) 1 vs Snow (L) 1 vs Action (L) 1 vs Frozen (L)
all in all, that's a damn good lineup of opponents
Snow is 9-8 vs a lesser lineup. Granted, his play vs Jaedong was phenomenal, but apart from that his month wasn't that great. Zero deserves his spot.
When will everyone realise that the PR is not about statistics and results (go argue with the kespa ranking about that if you want)... it is about POWER. So everyone that keeps whining about Flash being no.1 should seriously think about what PR is actually about... Yes sure, the players with the most "power" do tend to win more often and they do have the results to show for it, but not always, everyone loses at some point... This is a POWER RANK not a "who's your favorite player rank"... Keep that in mind before you criticize the rankings... Good job Flamewheel!
On February 04 2011 16:32 4vvhiplash7 wrote: When will everyone realise that the PR is not about statistics and results (go argue with the kespa ranking about that if you want)... it is about POWER. So everyone that keeps whining about Flash being no.1 should seriously think about what PR is actually about... Yes sure, the players with the most "power" do tend to win more often and they do have the results to show for it, but not always, everyone loses at some point... This is a POWER RANK not a "who's your favorite player rank"... Keep that in mind before you criticize the rankings... Good job Flamewheel!
The ambiguity of what constitutes POWER (if it is not about statistics and results) is the root of why people dissent on the ranking. Your post puts emphasis on this POWER but can you actually cite what it is instead of just saying what it isn't?
On February 03 2011 20:38 ReketSomething wrote: flamewheel how the fuck do you right so much O_O
nice PR and very timely ^^
Because he can spell write.
jk
Flash has a lot going for him, but I'd still be hesitant to put him at first because he has a smaller workload to achieve similar results. Also, his carpal tunnel syndrome should count against his "scariness"; he is probably much less scary in a long game now because of simple physical endurance.
He has 3 3 kills, so... Yeah. Doesn't seem to be affecting him too much.
On February 03 2011 05:26 ninini wrote: I think Hydra is already better than Jaedong at this point. When he wins the MSL, you'll see. Can't wait seeing Hydra take on Flash.
This is ridiculous tbh. What Terran's has Hydra beaten of any note at all? I think you are going to be bitterly disappointed when Flash completely rolls Hydra if they meet. Just because a Z can ZvP does not mean he can ZvT, i think we can all see that by now surely. ZvT is probably the hardest consistent matchup there is, just try to think of any ZvT specialists. Yarnc? That's basically it. [/QUOTE]
Maybe you're right that ZvT might be a weakness, but Hydra is far from a ZvP sniper. I think he's got the best ZvZ right now, and for that reason he'll win the MSL. Maybe that doesn't make him the best zerg though, since his vT is still questionable.
I think this is a great PR Flamewheel. It's been a long time since I really enjoyed reading one, end to end. The quality of your writing was very nice indeed . Keep up the awesome work!
I think it's strange that almost everyone that bitches about this Power Rank keeps on quoting relative weights of stats, PL vs SL, numbers numbers numbers, which of course a finely honed algorithm could calculate, or basically what ELO is (minus relative weights for SL vs PL).
Yet, hardly do I ever see arguments about the actual content of the games themselves. WATCH THE GAMES PEOPLE and stop trying to find a magic formula. Power Rank is supposed to be the thinking man's rank, the subjective rank. How many times are you going to debate a formula. There IS NO FORMULA. Flamewheel did a really nice job justifying his rank. I probably would've put Stork higher actually, but I totally get and respect his rank.
It's like watching the same argument over and over. It'd be really much more interesting to talk about the games and the quality of the play, which is what Power Rank is about. Sorry to all the people that have made really good comments and remarks, but I feel like I see the same old arguments every month about record.
PS Did anyone think Flash was gonna let KT lose to MBC being down 3-1? That's power.
On February 03 2011 05:26 ninini wrote: I think Hydra is already better than Jaedong at this point. When he wins the MSL, you'll see. Can't wait seeing Hydra take on Flash.
This is ridiculous tbh. What Terran's has Hydra beaten of any note at all? I think you are going to be bitterly disappointed when Flash completely rolls Hydra if they meet. Just because a Z can ZvP does not mean he can ZvT, i think we can all see that by now surely. ZvT is probably the hardest consistent matchup there is, just try to think of any ZvT specialists. Yarnc? That's basically it.
Maybe you're right that ZvT might be a weakness, but Hydra is far from a ZvP sniper. I think he's got the best ZvZ right now, and for that reason he'll win the MSL. Maybe that doesn't make him the best zerg though, since his vT is still questionable.[/QUOTE] The thing I like about Hydra is that he seems very well rounded, much like EffOrt was too, very good in all matchups with no obvious weaknesses. However his ZvT, though based on pure winrate his best matchup, is certainly untested against top players. In fact, during his recent monster run he's played very few ZvT's overall. The only notable win I could find among his recent games was against Fantasy, though he went and lost against him later on and Fantasy isn't know for his TvZ in the first place (especially in ProLeague).
Other than that he has losses to Midas, Sea and Light, so it would seem he has lost against pretty much any competent TvZ player that he's come up against but because he has played so few ZvT's since his breakout period I'd say the jury is still out. A game against Flash would be interesting though, even if he loses it could tell us a lot about his potential in the matchup.
On February 03 2011 05:26 ninini wrote: I think Hydra is already better than Jaedong at this point. When he wins the MSL, you'll see. Can't wait seeing Hydra take on Flash.
This is ridiculous tbh. What Terran's has Hydra beaten of any note at all? I think you are going to be bitterly disappointed when Flash completely rolls Hydra if they meet. Just because a Z can ZvP does not mean he can ZvT, i think we can all see that by now surely. ZvT is probably the hardest consistent matchup there is, just try to think of any ZvT specialists. Yarnc? That's basically it.
How many TvP specialists are there? Flash? How many PvZ specialists are there? Bisu? It's just how the game works, slight Z>T>P>T. Hydras ZvT has looked really solid and although it remains somewhat unproven he hasn't shown a sizable weakness in it or anything more than what you would expect any Zerg to show (Unlike Calm for example)
On February 05 2011 15:31 Hugo(Sphere) wrote: I think it's strange that almost everyone that bitches about this Power Rank keeps on quoting relative weights of stats, PL vs SL, numbers numbers numbers, which of course a finely honed algorithm could calculate, or basically what ELO is (minus relative weights for SL vs PL).
Yet, hardly do I ever see arguments about the actual content of the games themselves. WATCH THE GAMES PEOPLE and stop trying to find a magic formula. Power Rank is supposed to be the thinking man's rank, the subjective rank. How many times are you going to debate a formula. There IS NO FORMULA. Flamewheel did a really nice job justifying his rank. I probably would've put Stork higher actually, but I totally get and respect his rank.
It's like watching the same argument over and over. It'd be really much more interesting to talk about the games and the quality of the play, which is what Power Rank is about. Sorry to all the people that have made really good comments and remarks, but I feel like I see the same old arguments every month about record.
PS Did anyone think Flash was gonna let KT lose to MBC being down 3-1? That's power.
The reason why people argue with numbers should be clear. Qualitative analysis of game play can get fishy. Even in games where at first glance it looks like a one-sided obliteration, it may be a slight advantage turning into a landslide with both players playing evenly rather than the loser just getting out-classed. There's a lot of arguments over which is which. I'd point out that this is one of the reasons why Flash was placed so low in the Jan. 1 ranking: he just didn't seem like Flash in the games he lost. But of course this caused a lot of controversy. Icarus imbalanced ZvT, wraith fail against Valkyrie, and Flash's dominance in past seasons and in proleague were all brought up. And conclusions varied from "those games were utterly meaningless and should be completely disregarded" to "omg omg omg slump!!!!"
Qualitative analysis does play a role in rankings and people tend to factor it into discussions even subconsciously. For instance, going purely on statistics, the best December was had by Hydra, and even if you give weight to being in both starleauges, an outlook based purely on monthly statistics would have put Hydra in the top 2, yet I don't remember anyone making such an argument. And specifically, it did influence Bisu's position as #2 on that ranking (for taking down top players very thoroughly) and Flash's position as #5 for not bringing his A-game to the table when it was needed most. People had gripes about all that too.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
I like Hydra, but to be honest, I have a hard time trying to justify him as top 5. If he were displaying this kind of form at a different time, that would be one thing, but right now all of TBLS is strong at the same time, plus you have Fantasy...
But with regards to Hydra, I disagree about there being any kind of quantitative reasoning for his "low" ranking both last month and this month. The main arguments I see are that he's unestablished and that "his opponents always seem to make mistakes that give him the win." That first point is understandable. That second point is a prime example of the qualitative catch-22: is Hydra a "good but not great" player who has had some luck in opponents not playing their fullest, or is Hydra using his own skill to make his opponents look bad? To be thoroughly honest, I think Hydra is the real deal and pretty much any other time I would expect a rank 3 or rank 4 rather than a rank 6, but TBLS has been hot lately so...
Of course, if Hydra manages an upset on JvZ a la Calm, then I will expect his rank to go up.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
"Power Rank isn't about achievements, it's about hotness."
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
"Power Rank isn't about achievements, it's about hotness."
I'd make a joke about Bisu being the hottest progamer but I don't want to be called homo.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
"Power Rank isn't about achievements, it's about hotness."
I'd make a joke about Bisu being the hottest progamer but I don't want to be called homo.
On February 03 2011 05:26 ninini wrote: I think Hydra is already better than Jaedong at this point. When he wins the MSL, you'll see. Can't wait seeing Hydra take on Flash.
This is ridiculous tbh. What Terran's has Hydra beaten of any note at all? I think you are going to be bitterly disappointed when Flash completely rolls Hydra if they meet. Just because a Z can ZvP does not mean he can ZvT, i think we can all see that by now surely. ZvT is probably the hardest consistent matchup there is, just try to think of any ZvT specialists. Yarnc? That's basically it.
How many TvP specialists are there? Flash? How many PvZ specialists are there? Bisu? It's just how the game works, slight Z>T>P>T. Hydras ZvT has looked really solid and although it remains somewhat unproven he hasn't shown a sizable weakness in it or anything more than what you would expect any Zerg to show (Unlike Calm for example)
Aren't you agreeing with my posts really here? There isn't many specialists in the hard matchups that is definitely clear, and that's why i think Hydra is unproven although he does look decent. The guy said he was looking forward for Hydra vs Flash, but Hydra hasn't proven anything in this matchup yet.
Anyway it should be interesting MSL even if it's only ZvZ, just for that series. It is of course reminiscent of the semi-finals vs Calm, except this time JD is only in the one league so should get a lot of ZvZ practice time in on these maps. Assuming inhouse practice partners are used most of the time for this kind of thing, JD has an edge there too, being able to constantly play with Killer (who recently beat Hydra himself). Least Hydra looks a hell of a lot more solid than Action, who we all assumed was gonna be great basically from one game with Flash and a few other vT's. Looked like he got into KT on that alone.
On February 05 2011 19:12 Goragoth wrote:A game against Flash would be interesting though, even if he loses it could tell us a lot about his potential in the matchup.
I wouldn't count on that. Remember when Soulkey ZvT was just starting to break in and then Flash killed every single one of his lurkers with like 8 marines and proceeded to take every base on the map?
Getting murdered by Flash doesn't necessarily mean anything, good or bad.
On February 05 2011 19:12 Goragoth wrote:A game against Flash would be interesting though, even if he loses it could tell us a lot about his potential in the matchup.
I wouldn't count on that. Remember when Soulkey ZvT was just starting to break in and then Flash killed every single one of his lurkers with like 8 marines and proceeded to take every base on the map?
Getting murdered by Flash doesn't necessarily mean anything, good or bad.
Same thing happened again recently to Soulkey on Grand Line or whatever the new desert map is didn't it? He walked into the nat with one ctrl group of rines and killed everything immediately. I reckon if you showed someone new to the game that one they would call imbalance, Soulkeys lurker/ling control was fine yet he couldn't do anything. And we've seen by Action giving Flash a good run for his money lategame that playing Flash might not be the best judge of someones skills.
Strangely you can same the same about ZerO really. Judged on his games vs Flash and the ridiculous skill shown against his mech (even in games he lost) you'd think he was one of the top vT's there was, but he's only 53% in it and loses regularly. I dunno maybe he's just better against mech; i Should watch some of ZerO's games again from the past season they are usually entertaining.
On February 05 2011 19:12 Goragoth wrote:A game against Flash would be interesting though, even if he loses it could tell us a lot about his potential in the matchup.
I wouldn't count on that. Remember when Soulkey ZvT was just starting to break in and then Flash killed every single one of his lurkers with like 8 marines and proceeded to take every base on the map?
Getting murdered by Flash doesn't necessarily mean anything, good or bad.
Well, I did say could, not would. It would depend on the game being reasonably standard and lasting into the mid-late game. ZerO has played a number of close games with Flash that he ended up losing and I would consider him to be #2 ZvT right now.
I think the thing we all want to know is if Hydra inherited the uncanny knack that EffOrt had for beating Flash. EffOrt wasn't a ZvT sniper either (in fact it was probably his worst matchup, though not by much) but had a great record against Flash.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
On February 06 2011 16:14 Mortality wrote: I like Hydra, but to be honest, I have a hard time trying to justify him as top 5. If he were displaying this kind of form at a different time, that would be one thing, but right now all of TBLS is strong at the same time, plus you have Fantasy...
But with regards to Hydra, I disagree about there being any kind of quantitative reasoning for his "low" ranking both last month and this month. The main arguments I see are that he's unestablished and that "his opponents always seem to make mistakes that give him the win." That first point is understandable. That second point is a prime example of the qualitative catch-22: is Hydra a "good but not great" player who has had some luck in opponents not playing their fullest, or is Hydra using his own skill to make his opponents look bad? To be thoroughly honest, I think Hydra is the real deal and pretty much any other time I would expect a rank 3 or rank 4 rather than a rank 6, but TBLS has been hot lately so...
Of course, if Hydra manages an upset on JvZ a la Calm, then I will expect his rank to go up.
Oh no no no. I guess I wasn't clear. I agree with you 100% that he's where he deserves to be. Its just that some people seemed to be saying he's not really that good at all, which I happen to disagree with. I certainly wouldn't put him above TBLS at all.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
And you base that upon what?
13-5 in encounters and flash is 10-0 in his last ten. Flash is at almost 75% TvT, it's FvT and fantasy doesn't even come close. Thats just comparing records but if you actually watch the games Flash is obviously the favourte to take down fantasy in any form of match.
Flash is definitely the favorite over Fantasy, although I feel inclined to say that it's most definitely possible that Fantasy could take him down. Their matches in the past have tended to be very, very close. That match in WL? Their bo5 in MSL last season? Yeah, Flash is a better TvT player -- better all around really -- but Fantasy is not so very far behind, at least when he's playing his best.
Fantasy is one of the few players you could say ''Ya, he might have a decent chance in a Bo5 vs Flash'' about (the other ones IMO would be JD and Stork, if it's a non-final ), but a sane person wouldn't really hold him as the favourite, would he?
Flash is favoured against anyone right now (regardless of match-up, which is pretty cool and unique), and that's why he's at #1 on the PR.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
And you base that upon what?
13-5 in encounters and flash is 10-0 in his last ten. Flash is at almost 75% TvT, it's FvT and fantasy doesn't even come close. Thats just comparing records but if you actually watch the games Flash is obviously the favourte to take down fantasy in any form of match.
If anything, you're the one being biased.
You're pretty sure he'd win? wow:/
All I see is a KT symbol under your name. Of course your going to defend Flash xD. All im saying is since Fantasy won OSL he should be at the top in #1 not really being biased, just logical.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
And you base that upon what?
13-5 in encounters and flash is 10-0 in his last ten. Flash is at almost 75% TvT, it's FvT and fantasy doesn't even come close. Thats just comparing records but if you actually watch the games Flash is obviously the favourte to take down fantasy in any form of match.
If anything, you're the one being biased.
You're pretty sure he'd win? wow:/
All I see is a KT symbol under your name. Of course your going to defend Flash xD. All im saying is since Fantasy won OSL he should be at the top in #1 not really being biased, just logical.
He won OSL... and lost to ggaemo and Jaehoon in team leagues. And don't even get me started about his series vs Calm. I turned off the stream the moment he lifted the rax to invite Calm's lurkers in.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
And you base that upon what?
13-5 in encounters and flash is 10-0 in his last ten. Flash is at almost 75% TvT, it's FvT and fantasy doesn't even come close. Thats just comparing records but if you actually watch the games Flash is obviously the favourte to take down fantasy in any form of match.
If anything, you're the one being biased.
You're pretty sure he'd win? wow:/
All I see is a KT symbol under your name. Of course your going to defend Flash xD. All im saying is since Fantasy won OSL he should be at the top in #1 not really being biased, just logical.
The issue is whether or not Fantasy is currently a better player than Flash and it is quite clear that is not the case.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
And you base that upon what?
13-5 in encounters and flash is 10-0 in his last ten. Flash is at almost 75% TvT, it's FvT and fantasy doesn't even come close. Thats just comparing records but if you actually watch the games Flash is obviously the favourte to take down fantasy in any form of match.
If anything, you're the one being biased.
You're pretty sure he'd win? wow:/
All I see is a KT symbol under your name. Of course your going to defend Flash xD. All im saying is since Fantasy won OSL he should be at the top in #1 not really being biased, just logical.
The thing is you say "biased" about the PR and my comment while you actually don't base your own oppinion on anything else than bias of your own. I'm sorry if I came off harsh in my earlier post it was very late.
Any reasonable logic, totally unbiased, would lean towards the conclusion that Flash is the favourite to win such a match.
So you can't use the arguement "others being biased, you're being logical" in this occassion.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
And you base that upon what?
13-5 in encounters and flash is 10-0 in his last ten. Flash is at almost 75% TvT, it's FvT and fantasy doesn't even come close. Thats just comparing records but if you actually watch the games Flash is obviously the favourte to take down fantasy in any form of match.
If anything, you're the one being biased.
You're pretty sure he'd win? wow:/
All I see is a KT symbol under your name. Of course your going to defend Flash xD. All im saying is since Fantasy won OSL he should be at the top in #1 not really being biased, just logical.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
And you base that upon what?
13-5 in encounters and flash is 10-0 in his last ten. Flash is at almost 75% TvT, it's FvT and fantasy doesn't even come close. Thats just comparing records but if you actually watch the games Flash is obviously the favourte to take down fantasy in any form of match.
If anything, you're the one being biased.
You're pretty sure he'd win? wow:/
All I see is a KT symbol under your name. Of course your going to defend Flash xD. All im saying is since Fantasy won OSL he should be at the top in #1 not really being biased, just logical.
He won OSL but can you really make a case he is currently the BEST player, especially with his lackluster TvZ and poor WL showings? I'm not a Fantasy hater, in fact quite the opposite, but the quality of Flash's play and his PL results have clearly shown, to me, he is #1.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
And you base that upon what?
13-5 in encounters and flash is 10-0 in his last ten. Flash is at almost 75% TvT, it's FvT and fantasy doesn't even come close. Thats just comparing records but if you actually watch the games Flash is obviously the favourte to take down fantasy in any form of match.
If anything, you're the one being biased.
You're pretty sure he'd win? wow:/
All I see is a KT symbol under your name. Of course your going to defend Flash xD. All im saying is since Fantasy won OSL he should be at the top in #1 not really being biased, just logical.
It's a POWER rank, not an ELO ranking.
Uhm, winning OSL doesn't guarantee ELO #1? I think you better look at how ELO works...
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
And you base that upon what?
13-5 in encounters and flash is 10-0 in his last ten. Flash is at almost 75% TvT, it's FvT and fantasy doesn't even come close. Thats just comparing records but if you actually watch the games Flash is obviously the favourte to take down fantasy in any form of match.
If anything, you're the one being biased.
You're pretty sure he'd win? wow:/
All I see is a KT symbol under your name. Of course your going to defend Flash xD. All im saying is since Fantasy won OSL he should be at the top in #1 not really being biased, just logical.
It's a POWER rank, not an ELO ranking.
Uhm, winning OSL doesn't guarantee ELO #1? I think you better look at how ELO works...
That really just supports his opinion more so
Great rankings - anyone with half a brain would realize Flash is still the strongest player right now - I could really only see Stork or Jaedong taking him down atm, and I would not favor them to do so.
I was thinking for the power rank--would it make sense not to have it be updated each month, but also force updates if the associated discussion reaches a certain length (e.g. post count of 500 or 800 posts and above)
The advantage is that the power rank would be updated automatically as new controversies erupted, or as new games happen.
On February 08 2011 05:45 l0st_romantic wrote: I was thinking for the power rank--would it make sense not to have it be updated each month, but also force updates if the associated discussion reaches a certain length (e.g. post count of 500 or 800 posts and above)
The advantage is that the power rank would be updated automatically as new controversies erupted, or as new games happen.
then it shouldn't be called montly power ranking then? rename it to opinion post counts ranking? This is a bad idea imo.
woah men... is it just me or this job you do with the PR is awesome? There are so many games... I think you captured it pretty well, congratulations for doing such a (what I consider) pretty darn hard job
On February 08 2011 05:45 l0st_romantic wrote: I was thinking for the power rank--would it make sense not to have it be updated each month, but also force updates if the associated discussion reaches a certain length (e.g. post count of 500 or 800 posts and above)
The advantage is that the power rank would be updated automatically as new controversies erupted, or as new games happen.
No, it would be really bad for the PR writers to allow themselves to get bullied to such a high degree by loud fanboys.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
And you base that upon what?
13-5 in encounters and flash is 10-0 in his last ten. Flash is at almost 75% TvT, it's FvT and fantasy doesn't even come close. Thats just comparing records but if you actually watch the games Flash is obviously the favourte to take down fantasy in any form of match.
If anything, you're the one being biased.
You're pretty sure he'd win? wow:/
All I see is a KT symbol under your name. Of course your going to defend Flash xD. All im saying is since Fantasy won OSL he should be at the top in #1 not really being biased, just logical.
He won OSL but can you really make a case he is currently the BEST player, especially with his lackluster TvZ and poor WL showings? I'm not a Fantasy hater, in fact quite the opposite, but the quality of Flash's play and his PL results have clearly shown, to me, he is #1.
I wouldn't say Fantasy's TvZ lack vitality. It used to be his worst match up and still is in %. But if you only count the last 6 mounts, all his match-ups are fairly close with TvT being the worst. And the reason TvT is his worst match up is because he keeps facing Flash. Fantasy has always been one of the best players in the world. He has always been a threat to every players. He plays with style and he is my favourite player. But I can't call him the Best player in the world. I will have to agree with Flamewheel that Flash deserve the first spot.
On February 06 2011 15:42 CoWsGoesMoo wrote: Flash shouldn't be #1 he lost in both past OSL and MSL o_O;;
I believe that's why he was #5 in last months PR. He was eliminated last December.
It's still debatable whether he truly deserved #1 (people have been doing it the whole thread :O) but you cant really hold his OSL and MSL losses against him anymore.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE NOTE: I really think the Hydra haters are going more on statistics and name of who he beat and lost to (especially his ZvT). Just watch the guy's games, he's quite good. Specifically, watch Hydra vs Classic on Benzene. Some of the strongest midgame ZvT I've seen in a long time and really impressive recovery after some falters in the earlyish late game (if that made any sense at all).
Yeah and MSL is still going on? I think getting eliminated from any recent tournament shouldn't put you as #1 in my opinion. ಠ_ಠ
maybe you should read flamewheel's reasoning, you might find the answers there
Not really. All I read was biased and I am pretty sure Fantasy given the chance again to take down Flash again. He probably could win a box series vs him. ^^
And you base that upon what?
13-5 in encounters and flash is 10-0 in his last ten. Flash is at almost 75% TvT, it's FvT and fantasy doesn't even come close. Thats just comparing records but if you actually watch the games Flash is obviously the favourte to take down fantasy in any form of match.
If anything, you're the one being biased.
You're pretty sure he'd win? wow:/
All I see is a KT symbol under your name. Of course your going to defend Flash xD. All im saying is since Fantasy won OSL he should be at the top in #1 not really being biased, just logical.
There are many MANY precedents in the power rank for a player winning osl/msl in the relevant month and not being number 1 (including Nada, Jaedong, Calm, July, Mind etc etc). A starleague win hasn't ever automatically meant a top rank, so maybe it isn't that logical.
For mine Fantasy has been placed too high, I'd have had him at number 5
Not sure how to preface this properly, but considering the length of time I've been on this site, I guess it's only appropriate for me to comment on one of my favorite (if not my absolute favorite, now that I'm not using the Small VOD Thread as much as I used to ) threads on TL. This comment has pretty much nothing to do with the current PR, but more of a personal opinion on a debate that seems to spawn in every recent PR: the criteria in the assembly of a particular PR.
I've been around since the inception of the PR on TL, and the two original writers of PR (Etter and FakeSteve) have done a very good job of convincing me of this: strength of play comes before results, and results come before stats. Statistics in and of themselves mean next to nothing, if not nothing at all, if they don't corroborate on the more important factor that is results. Indeed stats can be, and often is, used as evidence to support the writer's interpretation of results, and that's fine, as long as the results are interpreted in a logical manner. After all, the PR is, and always has been, the subjective ranking of someone who is more qualified than the average member of TL to interpret the results and level of play in a logical manner.
Results, on the other hand, definitely do matter. Indeed, the history of the PR has been the delicate balancing act between the two major factors of play and results (my favorite example of this is when FakeSteve was forced to rank Jangbi as #1 on his PR when he absolutely did not believe that Jangbi was the best potential player). As much as level of play probably should trump results in analysis of PR, winning a Starleague must absolutely count for something. How much it should count is up to each writer, but it is important for that writer to keep it consistent in that factor in all the PRs he writes/ will write in the future.
I think the greatest source of conflict that all PR threads have in terms of their disagreement of interpretations is something I would call the 'wild card factor'; it may be more recognizable to label it the 'benefit of the doubt factor', or perhaps the 'how much has this kid proven himself factor'. This is, imo, absolutely nothing more than gut feeling in any scenario, and as such, its degree of credibility is only dependent upon how well the writer explains himself in his justifications. Again, it's important to be consistent in the justifications, of course.
Again, this was not any sort of commentary on this particular PR or any other one. I just felt I needed to make my stand on the interpretation of the PR.
GJ Flamewheel, I wish you the best of luck on your future PRs!
On February 09 2011 21:50 Tianx wrote: Bisu 3-0'd Savior for his first MSL gold when he was full on bonjwa mode and still (deservedly) only got 2nd.
The difference is that Savior had just beaten Nada in the OSL finals and got dual finals that season, as well as getting to MSL finals 5 seasons in a row. Flash however didn't even get past the group stages so his individual league acomplishments this season are almost nil, so he has to be judged solely on WL and history, where Savior had other things in his favor.
Now for the record I'm not saying fantasy should definitely have been in front of Flash (I personally would have put him at #1, but I really value individual league performance and others don't). Each of the top 5 had a major flaw recently that makes it hard to put them at #1.
Flash: No individual leagues. Still has some legacy for getting every final last year and performed nearly perfectly in WL (which I don't think is quite as impressive if you aren't in an individual but still, he was fucking incredible)
Fantasy: Mediocre in WL, no MSL. Winning the OSL finals 3-0ing the best PvTer of all time counts for a shit-load. If he had beaten Stork in WL the next day I think his case for #1 would be better, but since he lost it makes his strength look like it relies on a lot of preparation.
Stork: Got Knocked out of both individuals 3-0. Still his WL performance was great (10-1). Had he not bounced back and beaten Bisu and Fantasy in WL he should definitely have been #5, but that made it look like he just had problems in the sets vs Zero/Fanta and he bounced back. Had those two Bo5s been close (3-2 in both) I think he should have been #1, much like Savior in your example, but double 3-0 is really bad and I can't justifiably put him above fantasy.
Bisu: No Individual leagues. His individual league performance was about equal to Flash's (got further in one, less far in the other) and he lost to Stork and Flash in WL. Losing to Flash and Stork, who both also have near perfect WL performances makes it tough for me to put Bisu ahead of either, despite having more WL wins.
Jaedong: Has been looking mortal. No other way to put it really. His WL performance has been ok, but he still hasn't beaten anyone with an S class XvZ in PL this season (except maybe Hydra, but his super ZvZ started after his loss to JD) and his play in general has looked weaker than it did in 2010. He is out of OSL, and he barely beat Snow (to be fair Snow played fucking incredible that series but still, we kinda expect JD to Stomp every Protoss who is not Stork/BIsu without any trouble). Still he is the favorite to win MSL so that has to count for something
So looking at all that Flash is a very good choice for #1 (and I say that as a guy who 4 of his top 5 favorite players are Stork/Fantasy/JD/Bisu), but by no means is it a sure thing, at least imo the top 5 could have been in a fair number of completely different orders and still be completely justifiable.
Also I think Flamewheel's 6-10 is basically perfect, exactly the order I would have put them (maybe I would put Violet over Bogus, but I <3 Violet so that may just be fanboyism).
On February 09 2011 21:50 Tianx wrote: Bisu 3-0'd Savior for his first MSL gold when he was full on bonjwa mode and still (deservedly) only got 2nd.
The difference is that Savior had just beaten Nada in the OSL finals and got dual finals that season, as well as getting to MSL finals 5 seasons in a row. Flash however didn't even get past the group stages so his individual league acomplishments this season are almost nil, so he has to be judged solely on WL and history, where Savior had other things in his favor.
Now for the record I'm not saying fantasy should definitely have been in front of Flash (I personally would have put him at #1, but I really value individual league performance and others don't). Each of the top 5 had a major flaw recently that makes it hard to put them at #1.
Flash: No individual leagues. Still has some legacy for getting every final last year and performed nearly perfectly in WL (which I don't think is quite as impressive if you aren't in an individual but still, he was fucking incredible)
Fantasy: Mediocre in WL, no MSL. Winning the OSL finals 3-0ing the best PvTer of all time counts for a shit-load. If he had beaten Stork in WL the next day I think his case for #1 would be better, but since he lost it makes his strength look like it relies on a lot of preparation.
Stork: Got Knocked out of both individuals 3-0. Still his WL performance was great (10-1). Had he not bounced back and beaten Bisu and Fantasy in WL he should definitely have been #5, but that made it look like he just had problems in the sets vs Zero/Fanta and he bounced back. Had those two Bo5s been close (3-2 in both) I think he should have been #1, much like Savior in your example, but double 3-0 is really bad and I can't justifiably put him above fantasy.
Bisu: No Individual leagues. His individual league performance was about equal to Flash's (got further in one, less far in the other) and he lost to Stork and Flash in WL. Losing to Flash and Stork, who both also have near perfect WL performances makes it tough for me to put Bisu ahead of either, despite having more WL wins.
Jaedong: Has been looking mortal. No other way to put it really. His WL performance has been ok, but he still hasn't beaten anyone with an S class XvZ in PL this season (except maybe Hydra, but his super ZvZ started after his loss to JD) and his play in general has looked weaker than it did in 2010. He is out of OSL, and he barely beat Snow (to be fair Snow played fucking incredible that series but still, we kinda expect JD to Stomp every Protoss who is not Stork/BIsu without any trouble). Still he is the favorite to win MSL so that has to count for something
So looking at all that Flash is a very good choice for #1 (and I say that as a guy who 4 of his top 5 favorite players are Stork/Fantasy/JD/Bisu), but by no means is it a sure thing, at least imo the top 5 could have been in a fair number of completely different orders and still be completely justifiable.
Also I think Flamewheel's 6-10 is basically perfect, exactly the order I would have put them (maybe I would put Violet over Bogus, but I <3 Violet so that may just be fanboyism).
I tend to agree. It seems that instead of having set orders this time around, a few patterns of dominance can be argued for:
Fantasy > Stork (Maybe? Although Stork did dual-league) If Jaedong wins MSL, then JD = Fantasy > Stork Flash > Bisu (equal WL, Flash beat Bisu though) So then it becomes a question of how to rank these two intersecting sets--it's not that all patterns can be said to be valid (for example no one would rank Bisu above Flash right now) but the scope certainly is wider than before.
You also have to take into account that what Flash did badly all happened in december. We're trying to rank power here and Flash's january was almost perfect.
If you want to compare flash to savior, savior still got #1 when he was 0-3'd but that was the month he lost the games, the month flash lost he got #5.
Overall I don't think the cases are even comparable. A bonjwa losing to another top player 0-3 in a final or a bonwja losing to some random players early on that isn't even on the PR.
On February 10 2011 05:39 StylishVODs wrote: You also have to take into account that what Flash did badly all happened in december. We're trying to rank power here and Flash's january was almost perfect.
If you want to compare flash to savior, savior still got #1 when he was 0-3'd but that was the month he lost the games, the month flash lost he got #5.
Overall I don't think the cases are even comparable. A bonjwa losing to another top player 0-3 in a final or a bonwja losing to some random players early on that isn't even on the PR.
I don't think anyone here can argue that Flash, 100%, should not be #1. On the other hand, there is room to argue that others might be at the same level. Overall, March will be the real test of Flash. If he can break into Ro4 dual leagues again while maintaining a decent WL record, I think his sins will be forgiven.
Normally you would want someone who made a deep run in at least 1 tournament as #1, but there are a few key facts worth noting.
1.) It wasn't until 2007 that PL even started playing such a heavy role in SC. When you consider 2006 or earlier, a failure to make a deep run in SL in a given season would be a huge blow to a player's reputation. In 2006 and earlier that would be 2 rounds with a single round robin played in each round. In 2007 it was expanded to a double round robin, so you play each other team twice, but at that time it was still not terribly common to see players in more than about 15 games per round. It wasn't until 08-09 that we started getting players achieving 50+ wins per round, which is more than any player was even playing in prior season. (This is something I think worth taking into consideration when you think of the PL records of NaDa and Reach who achieved 100 wins a long time ago under a different system.)
What all this means is that a player who drops out of both SL's still has opportunities to wow us. I still think it should be held against someone when all they have to prepare for is PL, but consider...
2.) The players who are doing well in SL are either "untested" players such as Hydra who was pretty much a nonentity before this season or are lacking in power.
Jaedong put up a strong record last month, but this season he has lost to every single S-class opponent he faced, and while Snow played far better than anticipated, it still strikes a blow that Jaedong would barely manage a win there -- we're used to the idea that the only Protoss players capable of pushing JD to the limit are Stork and Bisu. There is now considerable doubt in that ideology, particularly in light of JD also posting a loss rape against Violet.
Stork would have been the clear #1, but he got butchered horribly in both leagues. Yes, so did Flash, but that happened to Flash last month and this happened to Stork this month. Stork's momentum that was flying high a couple weeks ago suddenly came to a screeching halt.
Fantasy is our OSL winner, and he is a solid player, but it's hard to call him "hot" right now when you consider his abysmal WL record and his, er, less than jaw dropping OSL run. He barely made it out of his group. He faced the weakest vs T player in the Ro8, his games against Calm... okay, he didn't look so bad, but that serious was just one WTF after another. So basically a #1 ranking on PR would boil down to "he raped Stork 3-0."
Then to toss out one more name... Zero. The other guy who 3-0 raped Stork. Right now I feel strongly that Zero can take down any top Terran or Protoss. But I'd hesitate to call him a "favorite" against any top player of any race. Look at his last 10 against each race individually: 4-6 vs T, 5-5 vs Z, 5-5 vs P. As for quality of games... there's a lot of inconsistency there. Zero is basically on my list of "can win or lose vs anyone" right now.
Is Flash #1 the correct choice? Hard to say, really. But there's no player who is clearly above him unless you are considering PR as an accomplishment ranking rather than a hotness ranking. Flash has been the main force behind KT's undefeated WL season -- which is their only chance at making it into the PL playoffs come summer -- and he is looking like a strong favorite for next season, which is probably going to start up some time mid-March I'd think, so it isn't all that far off.
i think the power ranking would do well to provide insights that the regular fan cannot get just by looking at stats. this means information kind of akin to scouting in sports, where you dive deeper into games, below the mere win loss as numbers, but treat the games as displays of skill (or fail) and project that skill. you are scouting for the powerful players, and perhaps the underappreciated ones.
this is especially true when we consider the small sample size that we are dealing with here. a player getting a few lucky wins here or there doesn't speak that much to the skill exhibited. it is fine to rely only on simple stats if they are all we have, but we have the actual games, so it's okay to take in more detailed information.
obviously, to make this concept work would require a lot of work, and im not demanding volunteer writers putting in this much time following promising players. to a certain extent, the scouting scale is already incorporated into the pr anyway, it just has some lag. when a player of obvious skill promise shows results, he's going to get more credit for those results than some guy who obviously had some fluke wins. however, the trick is to actively recognize that scouting analysis is rather valuable when properly done.
the previous discussion on flash's place then should be rather simple to resolve. when you watch a batch of recent flash games, do they show a level of skill that's matched by any other player? the answer is no.
On February 10 2011 13:56 oneofthem wrote: i think the power ranking would do well to provide insights that the regular fan cannot get just by looking at stats. this means information kind of akin to scouting in sports, where you dive deeper into games, below the mere win loss as numbers, but treat the games as displays of skill (or fail) and project that skill. you are scouting for the powerful players, and perhaps the underappreciated ones.
this is especially true when we consider the small sample size that we are dealing with here. a player getting a few lucky wins here or there doesn't speak that much to the skill exhibited. it is fine to rely only on simple stats if they are all we have, but we have the actual games, so it's okay to take in more detailed information.
obviously, to make this concept work would require a lot of work, and im not demanding volunteer writers putting in this much time following promising players. to a certain extent, the scouting scale is already incorporated into the pr anyway, it just has some lag. when a player of obvious skill promise shows results, he's going to get more credit for those results than some guy who obviously had some fluke wins. however, the trick is to actively recognize that scouting analysis is rather valuable when properly done.
the previous discussion on flash's place then should be rather simple to resolve. when you watch a batch of recent flash games, do they show a level of skill that's matched by any other player? the answer is no.
Again, this goes back to the problem of qualitative analysis. How do you -- impartially -- judge one player as better than another? Of course we can talk about quality of games and often times get a lot of meaning out of it, but we have to be careful with "I feel like player X has more skill than player Y." We should try to avoid that really, unless of course our opinion is supported by results.
And a common fallacy that people bring to the table when they talk about these things is that if someone arguing with them doesn't see what they see they think "well you're clearly a newb." Anybody else remember Idra's comments that Really is a better player than Leta? Would you agree with it? I don't. But even though he's playing SC2 now, Idra is still probably the strongest SC:BW player on this forum, so...
I'm fine with trying to use qualitative analysis to explain results, to fill in the blanks. That's one of the more important elements of Power Rank, but there needs to be that basis in results. Even then there's always going to be disagreement.
On February 11 2011 00:08 Mortality wrote: Again, this goes back to the problem of qualitative analysis. How do you -- impartially -- judge one player as better than another? Of course we can talk about quality of games and often times get a lot of meaning out of it, but we have to be careful with "I feel like player X has more skill than player Y." We should try to avoid that really, unless of course our opinion is supported by results.
This is TeamLiquid PowerRank. It's about fun. It's about hype. It's about recognizing amazing skill. If you want to track results, please use:
If ELO, Kespa ranking or the raw data don't satisfy you, please come up with some formula to rank players that you think it's better. Then open the MortalityRank thread and publish the results. Given the large traction it is going to get, it will become a TeamLiquid front-page feature in no time.
Look, if you want to say "fuck results, they don't matter" why not have it called TROLL RANK where you just troll all the fanturds all day long? That can be fun too.
Some of us want the ranking to have some semblance of meaning and credibility. Hence the importance of results.
It should be noted that while you are criticizing me for trying to make this my ranking somehow, the type of ranking I am advocating is what Power Rank has always really been.
If you believe there is some magic formula that can turn raw results into a power rank, you should go ahead, build the formula, apply it to the result lists I kindly linked in my previous post and publish it. It may be an awesome idea, but until there is some actual data it's hard to tell. If there is no such formula, then you already accept that PowerRank tracks other inputs beside the raw results.
Edit. Just in case you still have some "world is either black or white" woes. Saying that the inputs for PowerRank include other considerations than the past month raw results does not mean that these results should have no weight whatsoever. They should have and do have a big weight, but they are not everything. That's all.
Edit2. And then I realized I'm preaching to the choir:
On July 02 2010 01:13 Mortality wrote: Power Rank is not about statistics alone. If you want statistics, go open up TLPD.
On February 10 2011 20:39 Tianx wrote: Zero's results will never make any sort of sense.
The guy is a mystery.
Zero, like Stork, often plays up to the level of competition and often down to the level of competition. So expect good games vs good opponents and bad games vs bad opponents. I love the guy but love hurts sometimes.
On February 11 2011 11:55 bluetrolls wrote: If you believe there is some magic formula that can turn raw results into a power rank, you should go ahead, build the formula, apply it to the result lists I kindly linked in my previous post and publish it. It may be an awesome idea, but until there is some actual data it's hard to tell. If there is no such formula, then you already accept that PowerRank tracks other inputs beside the raw results.
Edit. Just in case you still have some "world is either black or white" woes. Saying that the inputs for PowerRank include other considerations than the past month raw results does not mean that these results should have no weight whatsoever. They should have and do have a big weight, but they are not everything. That's all.
Edit2. And then I realized I'm preaching to the choir:
On July 02 2010 01:13 Mortality wrote: Power Rank is not about statistics alone. If you want statistics, go open up TLPD.
Here you go. Elo is pretty damn accurate as long as players have been playing games, and most of the people on the list have played enough games recently. Note that the top 6 players on the power rank are the top 6 players by Elo.
Now where are those people laughing at those of us saying JD had lost his aura. This is why you can't just look at win-loss records. JD would never have lost a ZvZ bo5 in his prime straight up the way he did to hydra. 3 games went to mutalisk wars and JD lost all 3 with 2 of them in games with identical build orders and only game 5 being a BO loss. If hydra beats great in the MSL finals, he should pass Jaedong in the next PR.
I am really sad right now. But on the other hand, if JD manages to come back from this next season, my respect and love for him will reach astronomical heights. But watching his games for the last couple of months, I can actually see him be dethroned for real this time. + Show Spoiler +
I actually thought that even the season he made double finals, he played below his former self (of course with the exceptions of some brilliant games, which he will always have), but the scene was so bad back then with the exception of Flash, so it didn't show.
Speaking of PR, if Hydra wins the MSL, and does good in WL, I am ready to put him on #1 next month. What better measurement of Power could there be than taking down the tyrant in his very own matchup? But I'm getting ahead of myself, lots of matches to be played.
that guy is so good atm. On an insane winning streak and it is not that he gets lucky in his wins (except the one against Bisu), he just plays good. He is the real deal. I want to see Hydra vs. Flash showdown when their teams meet.
On February 12 2011 18:59 Malinor wrote: I am really sad right now. But on the other hand, if JD manages to come back from this next season, my respect and love for him will reach astronomical heights. But watching his games for the last couple of months, I can actually see him be dethroned for real this time. + Show Spoiler +
I actually thought that even the season he made double finals, he played below his former self (of course with the exceptions of some brilliant games, which he will always have), but the scene was so bad back then with the exception of Flash, so it didn't show.
Speaking of PR, if Hydra wins the MSL, and does good in WL, I am ready to put him on #1 next month. What better measurement of Power could there be than taking down the tyrant in his very own matchup? But I'm getting ahead of myself, lots of matches to be played.
I agree. The kid's got so much going for him right now.
Funny how this season, when it seemed like TaekBangLeeSsang would dominate more than ever with Flash and Jaedong being Flash and Jaedong, and Bisu and Stork coming back big time, would be the first since EVER08/ArenaMSL where non of them won a gold.
Anyway, although right now Hydra is clearly better, and I can't see any realistic scenario that would not have him end up over JD this month (and probably #1 or #2), I think its too early to jump the gun and say that Jaedong has been dethroned, although it is possible it will happen. Next season is what is really going to tell us that.
I think this season will probably mark the beginning of Jaedong's decline. I was arguing against it before but now it is hard to refute. A temporary comeback is certainly possible, perhaps enough to win another league even (with a bit of luck in opponents) but I think that now that his finals-appearance streak is broken, it won't return. In the past when players have made comebacks it was usually only for a limited time and never quite the same as their peak.
Only time will tell if Hydra becomes the heir to the Zerg throne but the moment he overtakes Jaedong in the KeSPA rank I'm calling it. Historically, all Zergs that were #1 of their race in KeSPA have held that spot continuously (i.e. never reclaimed it after losing it).
I am not happy (understatement of the year) with the results in MSL, but congrats to Hydra. He should probably take #1 if he takes the MSL this time, though I'm hoping that great takes it. As to whether Hydra inherits the Zerg throne, maybe, but to me, it doesn't feel as if the timing is right for a new Z king.
As for Jaedong, I really, really hope this series doesn't permanently break him. It seemed that ever since Hana Daetoo MSL finals, he hasn't shown the same type of dominance as he had in 2009, and has become more and more mentally shaken.
If there's one Zerg who can make such a comeback, though, it's Jaedong. I still believe that he will make a comeback next season.
On February 12 2011 21:42 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote: I am not happy (understatement of the year) with the results in MSL, but congrats to Hydra. He should probably take #1 if he takes the MSL this time, though I'm hoping that great takes it.
Goodness, I really hope that Great doesn't win the MSL. It would make the entire thing meaningless. We all already know that Great is a mediocre Zerg, always has been and always will be. His path to the finals was pretty easy (ZerO is notoriously atrocious in ZvZ and Kal hasn't really adapted to the new PvZ style making him quite weak in that matchup at the moment). Modesty could have made it too (showed he could beat Kal in the OSL and has excellent ZvZ), and so could Shine.
If Hydra wins, especially in dominant fashion, then at least we have the possibility of a new S-Class Zerg emerging, something that I think would be awesome.
On February 12 2011 21:42 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote: I am not happy (understatement of the year) with the results in MSL, but congrats to Hydra. He should probably take #1 if he takes the MSL this time, though I'm hoping that great takes it.
Goodness, I really hope that Great doesn't win the MSL. It would make the entire thing meaningless. We all already know that Great is a mediocre Zerg, always has been and always will be. His path to the finals was pretty easy (ZerO is notoriously atrocious in ZvZ and Kal hasn't really adapted to the new PvZ style making him quite weak in that matchup at the moment).
Well, given what happened in the MSL thus far: Flash knocked out at Ro32, Bisu out @ Ro16, Stork 3-0'ed, fantasy and Leta both dropping @ Ro32, and now JD, I'm not sure what to think about the MSL now. This entire season feels so weird to me.
As for cheering for great, it's admittedly because I like great better as a player.
On February 12 2011 18:51 b0lt wrote: Here you go. Elo is pretty damn accurate as long as players have been playing games, and most of the people on the list have played enough games recently. Note that the top 6 players on the power rank are the top 6 players by Elo.
Absolutely. But that's quite different from the very vocal "only (the last month's) results should count" opinion that has filled the past PowerRank comment pages ad-nauseam. Elo has history built in it, takes in consideration the relative strength of the opponents and does well when there are lots of games around. It's not a shallow "win OSL => number 1" recipe.
FlaSh is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ok i am done with explanation mark xD!
Not suprised to see JD lost, I even voted for Hydra on liquid bet. Hydra is riding a huge momentum and his plays seem solid, while JD plays isn't top notch anymore. Sure he manages to squeeze out a win here and there, but the performance isn't what we expected from Jaedong. Hopefully, this lost will awake his inner demon.
On February 12 2011 18:49 Holgerius wrote: Wow. I think we can say that JD is no longer the best Zerg in the world now. Feels weird. =/ Hydra is looking amazing.
Hydra's zvz is looking amazing. Until he shows that he can hang with s-class tvzers, he's not the best zerg in the world. :/
On February 12 2011 18:49 Holgerius wrote: Wow. I think we can say that JD is no longer the best Zerg in the world now. Feels weird. =/ Hydra is looking amazing.
Hydra's zvz is looking amazing. Until he shows that he can hang with s-class tvzers, he's not the best zerg in the world. :/
On February 12 2011 18:49 Holgerius wrote: Wow. I think we can say that JD is no longer the best Zerg in the world now. Feels weird. =/ Hydra is looking amazing.
Hydra's zvz is looking amazing. Until he shows that he can hang with s-class tvzers, he's not the best zerg in the world. :/
He's looking better than JD in both ZvP and ZvZ.
Yeah but ZerO's ZvP is better than Hydra's. So Hydra still doesn't have the ZvT to beat ZerO.
Hydra has a ton of momentum. Good to see a new S-player raising and amazing that he came from CJ, same house that brought us Effort. Upcoming must see matches:
Hydra definitely has more power than JD right now, but it's too soon to call him "better." He has stronger momentum, certainly, but this is Hydra's breakout season, whereas JD has proven himself for years. Hydra is virtually untested. Two ZvZ bo5's is all he has to his name, really.
I do believe that this was the confirmation we needed that Hydra was ready to play with the big dogs. And, to be honest, his Power Rank now looks too low in retrospect. If he wins MSL, he will be the player who I will consider to have had the best season overall, yet he has not broken into the top 5 on Power Rank yet.
I do not mean this as a criticism of Flamewheel. His placement of Hydra was logically sound. It's only in hindsight that Hydra looks to be Effort 2.0.
On the other hand, last night result only shows that it was right to put Jaedong at 5. Even though there were people saying he should have been higher...
If Hydra wins MSL he definitely deserves a top 3 spot. But first he needs to win the final...
So I decided to take a look back at older PRs. Jaedong hasn't been this far down since November/December 2008(Out of both leagues, mid->low PR placement). This may be the low point of his career if you throw in his recent Bo5 losses.
Dammit this might be the worst MSL ever. Hydra vs Great in the finals? Zergs only in the final 4. First Flash in the ro32, then Bisu vs Stork in the ro16 and finally stork fell in the ro8 leaving only zergs
On February 13 2011 13:32 luckybeni2 wrote: Dammit this might be the worst MSL ever. Hydra vs Great in the finals? Zergs only in the final 4. First Flash in the ro32, then Bisu vs Stork in the ro16 and finally stork fell in the ro8 leaving only zergs
The worst part about it was that Flash was knocked out by Terran scrubs so I can't whine about imbalance. Oh well!
Seriously though, I'm convinced that Flash would have made it to the finals if he hadn't not taken his Ro32 opponents seriously.
On February 13 2011 13:32 luckybeni2 wrote: Dammit this might be the worst MSL ever. Hydra vs Great in the finals? Zergs only in the final 4. First Flash in the ro32, then Bisu vs Stork in the ro16 and finally stork fell in the ro8 leaving only zergs
Avalon MSL, Calm vs Kwanro. Also much like this MSL, the highlight was in the Ro8 (Iris vs Bisu, Snow vs Jaedong).
On February 13 2011 13:32 luckybeni2 wrote: Dammit this might be the worst MSL ever. Hydra vs Great in the finals? Zergs only in the final 4. First Flash in the ro32, then Bisu vs Stork in the ro16 and finally stork fell in the ro8 leaving only zergs
Avalon MSL, Calm vs Kwanro. Also much like this MSL, the highlight was in the Ro8 (Iris vs Bisu, Snow vs Jaedong).
Man was that Iris Bisu TvP BO5 epic. Game 5 definitely still is my favorite TvP, I swear Bisu threw the kitchen sink at Iris but somehow Iris pulled through.
Calm vs Jaedong was an awesome series. And iirc Kwanro vs Iris pretty interesting. This MSL Hydra vs JD was pretty good. The real gripe I think is that there are just too damn many ZvZ's. No Terrans at all in the Ro8 either.
On February 14 2011 00:17 Mortality wrote: Calm vs Jaedong was an awesome series. And iirc Kwanro vs Iris pretty interesting. This MSL Hydra vs JD was pretty good. The real gripe I think is that there are just too damn many ZvZ's. No Terrans at all in the Ro8 either.
Doesn't it kinda say something? Like Terran is a necessary evil. Without them, Zerg will run free and swarm us with unending ZvZ marathons.
On February 14 2011 00:17 Mortality wrote: Calm vs Jaedong was an awesome series. And iirc Kwanro vs Iris pretty interesting. This MSL Hydra vs JD was pretty good. The real gripe I think is that there are just too damn many ZvZ's. No Terrans at all in the Ro8 either.
Doesn't it kinda say something? Like Terran is a necessary evil. Without them, Zerg will run free and swarm us with unending ZvZ marathons.
Naw man, we have BISU for that. Stork once in a while too. But you are right about terran being an evil.
Ah, I really hope JD can bounce back from this. Today we'll get to see.
I don't see Terran as evil at all. :/ Actually, I think I enjoy watching Terran the most. Even if TvT's often take a long time, I enjoy them more than ZvZ and PvP. Usually, at least. I play all three races. Terran used to be my best but since I've been playing more Z/P lately (when I actually do play...) it's probably my weakest at the moment.
On February 14 2011 02:25 johanes wrote: There is only one reason for not hating terran - Flash. Flamewheels PR looks pretty solid after today's games.
On the contrary, that is the most hate-able part of terran.
Hehe, you would have a really hard time if you would want to argue that Flash isn't the best player in the world at the moment. :D
The Elo page is pretty exciting to look at right now as a Flash fan; he's #1 in all categories and he's currently peaking in two MUs. Can't wait for the next season of Starleagues to begin.
He probably is. He is a recently crowned bonjwa after all.
But TBH, he really should not have beat Mind last night. That was one of those TvT's that isn't fun to watch. If I could have teleported through my monitor and into Korea I would have punched Mind in the face and started playing for him. I. Would. Have. Punched. His. Lights. Out. God!
Flash played okay, but nothing spectacular. It was Mind's loss. Had he rushed his vultures into Flash's main when he had the chance instead of retreating them back into the line of fire (losing half his vults for only 1 gol) he could have taken 10+ SCVs. Had he moved his tank line at 12 just a tiny bit to the left he could have denied Flash the center GAS expo at 12. Had he moved his tank line at 6 up just a tiny bit he could have at least denied Flash the ability to put an extractor at the center GAS expo at 9. And yet despite all of that he was winning handsomely up until he let Flash's drop into his base and then did a piss poor job defensively. And then he eats the EMP and instead of pressing when he has BC numbers advantage he lets Flash build up. And his BC's were totally uncoordinated with his gols. Embarrassingly uncoordinated. And at the big BC battle he had like 4 BC's just one screen length to the south, just sitting there, having popped out of his starports. Jesus.
Well, at least it was funny watching how badly Lucifer got his ass raped. Prison sex with a 16 incher.
If Great does win, then he better revolutionize ZvZ as promised. I can live with Hydra winning more easily. Hydra is over 70% wins this season, has been displaying awesome ZvZ and his ZvP is looking every bit as ridiculous. And historically, ZvT has been his strongest, although he hasn't palyed it much this season. His MSL run is definitely reminiscent of Calm's, including the Bo5 win over Jaedong. Ironically he 3-0'd Calm on his way.
On February 14 2011 00:17 Mortality wrote: Calm vs Jaedong was an awesome series. And iirc Kwanro vs Iris pretty interesting. This MSL Hydra vs JD was pretty good. The real gripe I think is that there are just too damn many ZvZ's. No Terrans at all in the Ro8 either.
Doesn't it kinda say something? Like Terran is a necessary evil. Without them, Zerg will run free and swarm us with unending ZvZ marathons.
Naw man, we have BISU for that.
You can say that when he finally makes it past the Ro16 of either league after 1.5 (and still counting) years of not doing so.
On February 15 2011 00:39 mnesthes wrote: Say, okum, how do you make all of these? They're very nice I'd love to see the barcodes of all the TBLS up until now.
He wasn't slumping when he lost to Kwanro. Kwanro was underrated and Flash's TvZ hadn't come together yet. Back then everyone used to say "omg Flash, stick to the fucking SK Terran. It's all you're any good at."
On February 15 2011 01:12 Holgerius wrote: Flash has basically never had a ''slump'' (depends on how you define it I guess). But I'd say that was the darkest moment in his career.
Not really. It was earlier that year in the Winners' League.
FOMOS interview, translated by MrHoon:
"Q: One of your toughest moments? What were the other harsh moments for you? A: It was harsh when I was eliminated from both individual leagues last season. I was physically drained when I played against Best in the OGN Starleague. On Wednesday I played the Winner’s League, and the very same night I had to play in the OGN Starleague and the very next day I ended up crashing out of the MSL as well. I think that my current position would have been different had I handled the situation better. They should arrange the schedule so that such a thing does not happen in my opinion. I actually wanted to quit progaming after I dropped out of the MSL (laughs). It wasn’t just the harshness of the defeat; I was worn out by gaming in general. The schedule was just too tough. I was exhausted that I told my manager that I couldn’t go on."
He actually won 3 before losing the ace match against Upmagic. In the MSL he got BBS'd in the final game. Maybe he could have defended it, but he actually looked physically drained. I think in a different interview he said that he felt he hadn't been appreciated by the team at the time.
On February 14 2011 00:17 Mortality wrote: Calm vs Jaedong was an awesome series. And iirc Kwanro vs Iris pretty interesting. This MSL Hydra vs JD was pretty good. The real gripe I think is that there are just too damn many ZvZ's. No Terrans at all in the Ro8 either.
Doesn't it kinda say something? Like Terran is a necessary evil. Without them, Zerg will run free and swarm us with unending ZvZ marathons.
Naw man, we have BISU for that.
You can say that when he finally makes it past the Ro16 of either league after 1.5 (and still counting) years of not doing so.
QFT. Bisu's performance is more a factor of this season's maps than anything else. Mark my words, Bisu will not make it to the Ro4 next season.
I agree that the end of the 08-09 season was probably Flash at his worst. They barely lost out to samsung for the 6th place spot in PL, Flash kept getting knocked out in crazy ways in the SLs, he couldn't beat the dragons consistently anymore..
On February 14 2011 00:17 Mortality wrote: Calm vs Jaedong was an awesome series. And iirc Kwanro vs Iris pretty interesting. This MSL Hydra vs JD was pretty good. The real gripe I think is that there are just too damn many ZvZ's. No Terrans at all in the Ro8 either.
Doesn't it kinda say something? Like Terran is a necessary evil. Without them, Zerg will run free and swarm us with unending ZvZ marathons.
Naw man, we have BISU for that.
You can say that when he finally makes it past the Ro16 of either league after 1.5 (and still counting) years of not doing so.
QFT. Bisu's performance is more a factor of this season's maps than anything else. Mark my words, Bisu will not make it to the Ro4 next season.
I don't think that's the greatest bet to make. I admit that I don't regard Bisu as a favorite for next season, but he is a very strong player, no doubt. Maps are hardly the only reason why he is doing so well.
Bisu's big problem that has led to his slow decline is that he relies too heavily on beating his opponents into submission with superior mechanics. In 2007 that was enough to win Starleagues. In 2011 it isn't. If I were to compare them, I'd say that Jaedong also was similar back then. The big difference is that Jaedong grew out of it.
On February 14 2011 11:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote: holy shit i just looked at flashs record
is he ever going to slump? at worst he loses like 2 or 3 games in a whole month. this has been going on way too long.
Indeed. Flash's level of dominance is really stunning when you really look at it.
He's won 76% of his games since January 2009. He actually had at least one stretch where he stayed over 80% over the course of a hundred games. He's regularly in the mid-to-high 80s over the course of shorter periods (like now, when he's 83.33% (35 - 7) since the end of last season, or when he hit 2443 Elo and was at 88% (44 - 6) over the previous 50 games).
You can see the explosion in his win-rate between the beginning of 2009 (66.18%) and the middle of February 2011 (72.31%).
On February 14 2011 11:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote: holy shit i just looked at flashs record
is he ever going to slump? at worst he loses like 2 or 3 games in a whole month. this has been going on way too long.
Indeed. Flash's level of dominance is really stunning when you really look at it.
He's won 76% of his games since January 2009. He actually had at least one stretch where he stayed over 80% over the course of a hundred games. He's regularly in the mid-to-high 80s over the course of shorter periods (like now, when he's 83.33% (35 - 7) since the end of last season, or when he hit 2443 Elo and was at 88% (44 - 6) over the previous 50 games).
You can see the explosion in his win-rate between the beginning of 2009 (66.18%) and the middle of February 2011 (72.31%).
Through Month Wins Losses Games Percentage April 2007 4 0 4 100.00% May 2007 7 1 8 87.50% June 2007 14 2 16 87.50% July 2007 22 12 34 64.71% August 2007 22 12 34 64.71% September 2007 24 15 39 61.54% October 2007 27 17 44 61.36% November 2007 31 22 53 58.49% December 2007 39 24 63 61.90% January 2008 45 27 72 62.50% February 2008 54 33 87 62.07% March 2008 57 33 90 63.33% April 2008 62 34 96 64.58% May 2008 77 37 114 67.54% June 2008 86 42 128 67.19% July 2008 96 50 146 65.75% August 2008 101 55 156 64.74% September 2008 105 57 162 64.81% October 2008 116 62 178 65.17% November 2008 121 63 184 65.76% December 2008 133 66 199 66.83% January 2009 137 70 207 66.18% February 2009 155 77 232 66.81% March 2009 158 80 238 66.39% April 2009 164 82 246 66.67% May 2009 171 86 257 66.54% June 2009 186 89 275 67.64% July 2009 194 94 288 67.36% August 2009 202 97 299 67.56% September 2009 202 97 299 67.56% October 2009 212 97 309 68.61% November 2009 217 98 315 68.89% December 2009 233 101 334 69.76% January 2010 250 108 358 69.83% February 2010 259 110 369 70.19% March 2010 269 111 380 70.79% April 2010 285 114 399 71.43% May 2010 303 120 423 71.63% June 2010 308 126 434 70.97% July 2010 314 128 442 71.04% August 2010 335 135 470 71.28% September 2010 341 137 478 71.34% October 2010 345 138 483 71.43% November 2010 353 138 491 71.89% December 2010 360 143 503 71.57% January 2011 372 144 516 72.09%
Could you do the same thing (the graph and the monthly-list in spoilers) for Jaedong also. Don't know how much time it would take you, but I would be very curious to see this for him as well. That's such an informative piece of statistics.
On February 16 2011 04:50 dani_caliKorea wrote: Only contenders for #1 are Flash and Hydra.
Too much of the month is left for that to be definitively stated. Someone not named Flash or Hydra could still go on an AK rampage. You never know. WL is like that. You just have to wait and see.
On February 14 2011 11:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote: holy shit i just looked at flashs record
is he ever going to slump? at worst he loses like 2 or 3 games in a whole month. this has been going on way too long.
Indeed. Flash's level of dominance is really stunning when you really look at it.
He's won 76% of his games since January 2009. He actually had at least one stretch where he stayed over 80% over the course of a hundred games. He's regularly in the mid-to-high 80s over the course of shorter periods (like now, when he's 83.33% (35 - 7) since the end of last season, or when he hit 2443 Elo and was at 88% (44 - 6) over the previous 50 games).
You can see the explosion in his win-rate between the beginning of 2009 (66.18%) and the middle of February 2011 (72.31%).
Through Month Wins Losses Games Percentage April 2007 4 0 4 100.00% May 2007 7 1 8 87.50% June 2007 14 2 16 87.50% July 2007 22 12 34 64.71% August 2007 22 12 34 64.71% September 2007 24 15 39 61.54% October 2007 27 17 44 61.36% November 2007 31 22 53 58.49% December 2007 39 24 63 61.90% January 2008 45 27 72 62.50% February 2008 54 33 87 62.07% March 2008 57 33 90 63.33% April 2008 62 34 96 64.58% May 2008 77 37 114 67.54% June 2008 86 42 128 67.19% July 2008 96 50 146 65.75% August 2008 101 55 156 64.74% September 2008 105 57 162 64.81% October 2008 116 62 178 65.17% November 2008 121 63 184 65.76% December 2008 133 66 199 66.83% January 2009 137 70 207 66.18% February 2009 155 77 232 66.81% March 2009 158 80 238 66.39% April 2009 164 82 246 66.67% May 2009 171 86 257 66.54% June 2009 186 89 275 67.64% July 2009 194 94 288 67.36% August 2009 202 97 299 67.56% September 2009 202 97 299 67.56% October 2009 212 97 309 68.61% November 2009 217 98 315 68.89% December 2009 233 101 334 69.76% January 2010 250 108 358 69.83% February 2010 259 110 369 70.19% March 2010 269 111 380 70.79% April 2010 285 114 399 71.43% May 2010 303 120 423 71.63% June 2010 308 126 434 70.97% July 2010 314 128 442 71.04% August 2010 335 135 470 71.28% September 2010 341 137 478 71.34% October 2010 345 138 483 71.43% November 2010 353 138 491 71.89% December 2010 360 143 503 71.57% January 2011 372 144 516 72.09%
Could you do the same thing (the graph and the monthly-list in spoilers) for Jaedong also. Don't know how much time it would take you, but I would be very curious to see this for him as well. That's such an informative piece of statistics.
As much as I love hard numbers, it's important to note that these kind of statistics only tell so much of the picture. For Flash, the ability to win Starleagues always went hand-in-hand with all around dominating statistics. For Jaedong I think the key has always been his tenacity in Bo5's.
On February 14 2011 11:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote: holy shit i just looked at flashs record
is he ever going to slump? at worst he loses like 2 or 3 games in a whole month. this has been going on way too long.
Indeed. Flash's level of dominance is really stunning when you really look at it.
He's won 76% of his games since January 2009. He actually had at least one stretch where he stayed over 80% over the course of a hundred games. He's regularly in the mid-to-high 80s over the course of shorter periods (like now, when he's 83.33% (35 - 7) since the end of last season, or when he hit 2443 Elo and was at 88% (44 - 6) over the previous 50 games).
You can see the explosion in his win-rate between the beginning of 2009 (66.18%) and the middle of February 2011 (72.31%).
Through Month Wins Losses Games Percentage April 2007 4 0 4 100.00% May 2007 7 1 8 87.50% June 2007 14 2 16 87.50% July 2007 22 12 34 64.71% August 2007 22 12 34 64.71% September 2007 24 15 39 61.54% October 2007 27 17 44 61.36% November 2007 31 22 53 58.49% December 2007 39 24 63 61.90% January 2008 45 27 72 62.50% February 2008 54 33 87 62.07% March 2008 57 33 90 63.33% April 2008 62 34 96 64.58% May 2008 77 37 114 67.54% June 2008 86 42 128 67.19% July 2008 96 50 146 65.75% August 2008 101 55 156 64.74% September 2008 105 57 162 64.81% October 2008 116 62 178 65.17% November 2008 121 63 184 65.76% December 2008 133 66 199 66.83% January 2009 137 70 207 66.18% February 2009 155 77 232 66.81% March 2009 158 80 238 66.39% April 2009 164 82 246 66.67% May 2009 171 86 257 66.54% June 2009 186 89 275 67.64% July 2009 194 94 288 67.36% August 2009 202 97 299 67.56% September 2009 202 97 299 67.56% October 2009 212 97 309 68.61% November 2009 217 98 315 68.89% December 2009 233 101 334 69.76% January 2010 250 108 358 69.83% February 2010 259 110 369 70.19% March 2010 269 111 380 70.79% April 2010 285 114 399 71.43% May 2010 303 120 423 71.63% June 2010 308 126 434 70.97% July 2010 314 128 442 71.04% August 2010 335 135 470 71.28% September 2010 341 137 478 71.34% October 2010 345 138 483 71.43% November 2010 353 138 491 71.89% December 2010 360 143 503 71.57% January 2011 372 144 516 72.09%
Could you do the same thing (the graph and the monthly-list in spoilers) for Jaedong also. Don't know how much time it would take you, but I would be very curious to see this for him as well. That's such an informative piece of statistics.
As much as I love hard numbers, it's important to note that these kind of statistics only tell so much of the picture. For Flash, the ability to win Starleagues always went hand-in-hand with all around dominating statistics. For Jaedong I think the key has always been his tenacity in Bo5's.
I don't really know what your intention here is. If your post is towards me or you wanna tell everyone that these numbers won't tell us everything there is to now.
I just would love to see the same graph for Jaedong, because I'm interested in his win-percentage over time and compared to Flash. Nothing more and nothing less. I'm not gonna try to draw any wild conclusions from this. As I said, I find this statistic very informative and very interesting.
(@ Mumei: I obviously can go through TLPD myself and look these numbers up, just htinking if you have a script for this, that would probably be easier)
On February 16 2011 08:07 okum wrote: With a simple modification of the barcode script, I can plot say Flash and Jaedong's win % for you: http://imgur.com/fUspU
Note that the x axis is proportional to games played, and not uniform in time.
Sweet. Flash's graph from around the 300 game mark and onwards is fucking insane.
On February 14 2011 11:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote: holy shit i just looked at flashs record
is he ever going to slump? at worst he loses like 2 or 3 games in a whole month. this has been going on way too long.
Indeed. Flash's level of dominance is really stunning when you really look at it.
He's won 76% of his games since January 2009. He actually had at least one stretch where he stayed over 80% over the course of a hundred games. He's regularly in the mid-to-high 80s over the course of shorter periods (like now, when he's 83.33% (35 - 7) since the end of last season, or when he hit 2443 Elo and was at 88% (44 - 6) over the previous 50 games).
You can see the explosion in his win-rate between the beginning of 2009 (66.18%) and the middle of February 2011 (72.31%).
Through Month Wins Losses Games Percentage April 2007 4 0 4 100.00% May 2007 7 1 8 87.50% June 2007 14 2 16 87.50% July 2007 22 12 34 64.71% August 2007 22 12 34 64.71% September 2007 24 15 39 61.54% October 2007 27 17 44 61.36% November 2007 31 22 53 58.49% December 2007 39 24 63 61.90% January 2008 45 27 72 62.50% February 2008 54 33 87 62.07% March 2008 57 33 90 63.33% April 2008 62 34 96 64.58% May 2008 77 37 114 67.54% June 2008 86 42 128 67.19% July 2008 96 50 146 65.75% August 2008 101 55 156 64.74% September 2008 105 57 162 64.81% October 2008 116 62 178 65.17% November 2008 121 63 184 65.76% December 2008 133 66 199 66.83% January 2009 137 70 207 66.18% February 2009 155 77 232 66.81% March 2009 158 80 238 66.39% April 2009 164 82 246 66.67% May 2009 171 86 257 66.54% June 2009 186 89 275 67.64% July 2009 194 94 288 67.36% August 2009 202 97 299 67.56% September 2009 202 97 299 67.56% October 2009 212 97 309 68.61% November 2009 217 98 315 68.89% December 2009 233 101 334 69.76% January 2010 250 108 358 69.83% February 2010 259 110 369 70.19% March 2010 269 111 380 70.79% April 2010 285 114 399 71.43% May 2010 303 120 423 71.63% June 2010 308 126 434 70.97% July 2010 314 128 442 71.04% August 2010 335 135 470 71.28% September 2010 341 137 478 71.34% October 2010 345 138 483 71.43% November 2010 353 138 491 71.89% December 2010 360 143 503 71.57% January 2011 372 144 516 72.09%
Could you do the same thing (the graph and the monthly-list in spoilers) for Jaedong also. Don't know how much time it would take you, but I would be very curious to see this for him as well. That's such an informative piece of statistics.
He made a whole blog post about it with many other players included. Really impressive considering he searched TLPD by hand.
I haven't the foggiest idea how to modify the barcode script, so I did it by hand. And Jaedong really is the picture of consistency. He's averaged 69.23% since the end of January 2009 (234 - 104). Since the start of the new season, he's gone - gasp - 69.23% (36 - 16).
On February 14 2011 11:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote: holy shit i just looked at flashs record
is he ever going to slump? at worst he loses like 2 or 3 games in a whole month. this has been going on way too long.
Indeed. Flash's level of dominance is really stunning when you really look at it.
He's won 76% of his games since January 2009. He actually had at least one stretch where he stayed over 80% over the course of a hundred games. He's regularly in the mid-to-high 80s over the course of shorter periods (like now, when he's 83.33% (35 - 7) since the end of last season, or when he hit 2443 Elo and was at 88% (44 - 6) over the previous 50 games).
You can see the explosion in his win-rate between the beginning of 2009 (66.18%) and the middle of February 2011 (72.31%).
Through Month Wins Losses Games Percentage April 2007 4 0 4 100.00% May 2007 7 1 8 87.50% June 2007 14 2 16 87.50% July 2007 22 12 34 64.71% August 2007 22 12 34 64.71% September 2007 24 15 39 61.54% October 2007 27 17 44 61.36% November 2007 31 22 53 58.49% December 2007 39 24 63 61.90% January 2008 45 27 72 62.50% February 2008 54 33 87 62.07% March 2008 57 33 90 63.33% April 2008 62 34 96 64.58% May 2008 77 37 114 67.54% June 2008 86 42 128 67.19% July 2008 96 50 146 65.75% August 2008 101 55 156 64.74% September 2008 105 57 162 64.81% October 2008 116 62 178 65.17% November 2008 121 63 184 65.76% December 2008 133 66 199 66.83% January 2009 137 70 207 66.18% February 2009 155 77 232 66.81% March 2009 158 80 238 66.39% April 2009 164 82 246 66.67% May 2009 171 86 257 66.54% June 2009 186 89 275 67.64% July 2009 194 94 288 67.36% August 2009 202 97 299 67.56% September 2009 202 97 299 67.56% October 2009 212 97 309 68.61% November 2009 217 98 315 68.89% December 2009 233 101 334 69.76% January 2010 250 108 358 69.83% February 2010 259 110 369 70.19% March 2010 269 111 380 70.79% April 2010 285 114 399 71.43% May 2010 303 120 423 71.63% June 2010 308 126 434 70.97% July 2010 314 128 442 71.04% August 2010 335 135 470 71.28% September 2010 341 137 478 71.34% October 2010 345 138 483 71.43% November 2010 353 138 491 71.89% December 2010 360 143 503 71.57% January 2011 372 144 516 72.09%
Could you do the same thing (the graph and the monthly-list in spoilers) for Jaedong also. Don't know how much time it would take you, but I would be very curious to see this for him as well. That's such an informative piece of statistics.
He made a whole blog post about it with many other players included. Really impressive considering he searched TLPD by hand.
Wow, I missed that thread. Thank you very much for showing it to me.
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote: JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
It's hard to draw any conclusions regarding Jaedong from this loss considering his past record. Remember he's only ever won a single PL match against Bisu and none against Stork. There are just some players that he has a terrible track record against in PL. The only real "OMG Jaedong slump!" indicator IMO was losing a ZvZ Bo5 with nothing else going on. That's not something that has ever happened before or even looked remotely likely until now (the loss against Calm really doesn't count considering the circumstances at the time).
I still hope that it's just because Hydra is better than JD in his prime, rather than due to JD's skill decreasing but only time will tell.
Seriously though people, Jaedong losing in PL against Bisu/Stork/Light isn't really news, it's just business as usual (most of those games even look the same, for example against Bisu he usually goes for a greedy macro build and gets rolled when he doesn't have enough to defend against Bisu's Zealot aggression, or against Light most games are some sort of all-in/semi-all-in lurker-first weird builds). I wouldn't worry too much about him until he starts to drop more than the occasional game to lesser players, or starts to regularly get knocked out of the individual leagues early. I'd certainly wait a while before crowning Hydra as #1 Zerg, he has much to prove regarding consistency. EffOrt briefly looked better than Jaedong too, before hitting deep slumps.
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote: JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote: JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
Bisu didn't play Sea, and he can't play Fantasy. These two, plus Hiya and Flash, are the only decent TvPers. An in-shape Baby would also qualify, but Baby hasn't been in shape all season.
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote: JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
By what logic?
Bisu has historically never had a strong PvT. He has never demonstrated consistent dominance in the matchup. Bisu has never won a PvT individual league finals. Hence, his default position going into this month is one of questionable skill. The two losses in Winners' League do not negate that trend. Bisu needs to demonstrate a month of dominance in PvT before that claim can be changed.
Flash, on the other hand, is 3-1 in Bo5 Finals versus Jaedong, and has a 69.8% winrate in TvZ versus Bisu's 61% winrate in PvT. Hence his TvZ position going into the month is one of unquestioned dominance. To prove that point: if you had to bet on a terran to win against any zerg, which terran would you pick? The vast majority of Starcraft watchers would pick Flash (with a section picking Light, but only a small section). But if you had to pick a protoss to win against any terran, would the vast majority pick Bisu? Hell, more people would pick Stork or Snow in that situation. Flash's loss against Zero doesn't negate that dominance.
Does that logic make sense to you?
Most PvT losses are BO losses anyhow--the matchup is the single one least susceptible to multitask/mechanics and most susceptible to game sense and management. Look at the recent Fantasy vs Stork series. Did Fanta win through superior multitask? Hell naw, he was fighting single-front battles with less than 36 units for most of the game time. By that logic it's well acknowledged on TL that Bisu has the best multitask of any P but only mediocre game sense. Hence his BO loss in PvT can strengthen that claim.
And it's not like when he gets advantageous BOs he wins either. Look at his game versus Flash. Bisu was in a position where he could expand once to 5 bases, play it safe, and seal the deal on Icarus. Instead, Bisu decides to triple expand to seven bases, knowing full well that he is playing someone with OoV/Savior-caliber game sense and timings, and who plays Terran, the race that can catch you expanding without ever leaving their base by pressing "0" and "s". Trying to excuse that sort of mistake is like blaming the campus slut for having STDs after you decided to ride bareback.
I can't really recall Bisu ever looking strong PvT. I feel like older PvTs (pre 2009ish) very often warranted the terran player's discredit, more so than credit to the toss. It's still extremely rare to feel convinced by the MU itself unless it involves Flash, Fantasy or Sea, and sometimes Hiya.
I've watched alot of Bisu's games for the past three years, and the only S-class PvT I can think of is vs. Flash on HBR. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/28867_Bisu_vs_Flash if anyone wants to see the vod, amazing game that even Flash fans can appreciate, as the loss is as honest as they come.
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote: JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
Questionable doesn't really mean bad it means there are still some question marks he needs to straighten out. Compared to his other matchups where he is doing awesomely he is only 4-2 (2011) vs T and his games in themselves look a little shaky (compared to his other matchups). I'd still place him top 3 PvT as of now, it is however hi most questionable matchup until he starts consistently beating some good TvPers like Sea, Fantasy, Hiya or Flash.
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote: JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
By what logic?
Bisu has historically never had a strong PvT. He has never demonstrated consistent dominance in the matchup. Bisu has never won a PvT individual league finals. Hence, his default position going into this month is one of questionable skill. The two losses in Winners' League do not negate that trend. Bisu needs to demonstrate a month of dominance in PvT before that claim can be changed.
Flash, on the other hand, is 3-1 in Bo5 Finals versus Jaedong, and has a 69.8% winrate in TvZ versus Bisu's 61% winrate in PvT. Hence his TvZ position going into the month is one of unquestioned dominance. To prove that point: if you had to bet on a terran to win against any zerg, which terran would you pick? The vast majority of Starcraft watchers would pick Flash (with a section picking Light, but only a small section). But if you had to pick a protoss to win against any terran, would the vast majority pick Bisu? Hell, more people would pick Stork or Snow in that situation. Flash's loss against Zero doesn't negate that dominance.
Does that logic make sense to you?
Most PvT losses are BO losses anyhow--the matchup is the single one least susceptible to multitask/mechanics and most susceptible to game sense and management. Look at the recent Fantasy vs Stork series. Did Fanta win through superior multitask? Hell naw, he was fighting single-front battles with less than 36 units for most of the game time. By that logic it's well acknowledged on TL that Bisu has the best multitask of any P but only mediocre game sense. Hence his BO loss in PvT can strengthen that claim.
And it's not like when he gets advantageous BOs he wins either. Look at his game versus Flash. Bisu was in a position where he could expand once to 5 bases, play it safe, and seal the deal on Icarus. Instead, Bisu decides to triple expand to seven bases, knowing full well that he is playing someone with OoV/Savior-caliber game sense and timings, and who plays Terran, the race that can catch you expanding without ever leaving their base by pressing "0" and "s". Trying to excuse that sort of mistake is like blaming the campus slut for having STDs after you decided to ride bareback.
I suggest you look up his PvT record during 2009. His only significant loss was to 1) the semi-finals of the Batoo OSL against Fantasy, who is the 2nd best TvPer to have ever existed, and an excellent player when it comes to preparation. He later avenged himself in the Avalon MSL by going 2-0 against Fantasy. 2) Iris, where Bisu threw away his advantage in game 5 during the quarter-finals of the Avalon MSL.
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote: JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
By what logic?
Bisu has historically never had a strong PvT. He has never demonstrated consistent dominance in the matchup. Bisu has never won a PvT individual league finals. Hence, his default position going into this month is one of questionable skill. The two losses in Winners' League do not negate that trend. Bisu needs to demonstrate a month of dominance in PvT before that claim can be changed.
Flash, on the other hand, is 3-1 in Bo5 Finals versus Jaedong, and has a 69.8% winrate in TvZ versus Bisu's 61% winrate in PvT. Hence his TvZ position going into the month is one of unquestioned dominance. To prove that point: if you had to bet on a terran to win against any zerg, which terran would you pick? The vast majority of Starcraft watchers would pick Flash (with a section picking Light, but only a small section). But if you had to pick a protoss to win against any terran, would the vast majority pick Bisu? Hell, more people would pick Stork or Snow in that situation. Flash's loss against Zero doesn't negate that dominance.
Does that logic make sense to you?
Most PvT losses are BO losses anyhow--the matchup is the single one least susceptible to multitask/mechanics and most susceptible to game sense and management. Look at the recent Fantasy vs Stork series. Did Fanta win through superior multitask? Hell naw, he was fighting single-front battles with less than 36 units for most of the game time. By that logic it's well acknowledged on TL that Bisu has the best multitask of any P but only mediocre game sense. Hence his BO loss in PvT can strengthen that claim.
And it's not like when he gets advantageous BOs he wins either. Look at his game versus Flash. Bisu was in a position where he could expand once to 5 bases, play it safe, and seal the deal on Icarus. Instead, Bisu decides to triple expand to seven bases, knowing full well that he is playing someone with OoV/Savior-caliber game sense and timings, and who plays Terran, the race that can catch you expanding without ever leaving their base by pressing "0" and "s". Trying to excuse that sort of mistake is like blaming the campus slut for having STDs after you decided to ride bareback.
I suggest you look up his PvT record during 2009. His only significant loss was to 1) the semi-finals of the Batoo OSL against Fantasy, who is the 2nd best TvPer to have ever existed, and an excellent player when it comes to preparation. He later avenged himself in the Avalon MSL by going 2-0 against Fantasy. 2) Iris, where Bisu threw away his advantage in game 5 during the quarter-finals of the Avalon MSL.
1) How do you define significant? 2) Look at his 2010 record 3) "Never" may be too strong of a word here. How about "for the past 16 months". Remember Bisu losing 5 straight PvTs to people like Firebathero and shortly thereafter crashing out of the OSL to go.go in a Bo3? Dropping random games to scrubs is acceptable. Dropping a Bo3 to a game-fixer with one of the worst TvPs in history, while letting his opponent get away with a 1 rax double expand--that's just sad. 4) Have you ever seen a Bisu PvT where he demonstrates excellent game sense?
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote: JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
By what logic?
Bisu has historically never had a strong PvT. He has never demonstrated consistent dominance in the matchup. Bisu has never won a PvT individual league finals. Hence, his default position going into this month is one of questionable skill. The two losses in Winners' League do not negate that trend. Bisu needs to demonstrate a month of dominance in PvT before that claim can be changed.
Flash, on the other hand, is 3-1 in Bo5 Finals versus Jaedong, and has a 69.8% winrate in TvZ versus Bisu's 61% winrate in PvT. Hence his TvZ position going into the month is one of unquestioned dominance. To prove that point: if you had to bet on a terran to win against any zerg, which terran would you pick? The vast majority of Starcraft watchers would pick Flash (with a section picking Light, but only a small section). But if you had to pick a protoss to win against any terran, would the vast majority pick Bisu? Hell, more people would pick Stork or Snow in that situation. Flash's loss against Zero doesn't negate that dominance.
Does that logic make sense to you?
Most PvT losses are BO losses anyhow--the matchup is the single one least susceptible to multitask/mechanics and most susceptible to game sense and management. Look at the recent Fantasy vs Stork series. Did Fanta win through superior multitask? Hell naw, he was fighting single-front battles with less than 36 units for most of the game time. By that logic it's well acknowledged on TL that Bisu has the best multitask of any P but only mediocre game sense. Hence his BO loss in PvT can strengthen that claim.
And it's not like when he gets advantageous BOs he wins either. Look at his game versus Flash. Bisu was in a position where he could expand once to 5 bases, play it safe, and seal the deal on Icarus. Instead, Bisu decides to triple expand to seven bases, knowing full well that he is playing someone with OoV/Savior-caliber game sense and timings, and who plays Terran, the race that can catch you expanding without ever leaving their base by pressing "0" and "s". Trying to excuse that sort of mistake is like blaming the campus slut for having STDs after you decided to ride bareback.
I suggest you look up his PvT record during 2009. His only significant loss was to 1) the semi-finals of the Batoo OSL against Fantasy, who is the 2nd best TvPer to have ever existed, and an excellent player when it comes to preparation. He later avenged himself in the Avalon MSL by going 2-0 against Fantasy. 2) Iris, where Bisu threw away his advantage in game 5 during the quarter-finals of the Avalon MSL.
1) How do you define significant? 2) Look at his 2010 record 3) "Never" may be too strong of a word here. How about "for the past 16 months". Remember Bisu losing 5 straight PvTs to people like Firebathero and shortly thereafter crashing out of the OSL to go.go in a Bo3? Dropping random games to scrubs is acceptable. Dropping a Bo3 to a game-fixer with one of the worst TvPs in history, while letting his opponent get away with a 1 rax double expand--that's just sad. 4) Have you ever seen a Bisu PvT where he demonstrates excellent game sense?
#1: Significant as in costing him a chance at a Starleague. Also significant as in they were Bo5s, which many consider 'the real test of skill'. #2: +60% winrate is extraordinary in the world of Progaming. Hell, even holding +50% over a modest sample, say 50 games, is enough to get you on the A-team in most cases. #3: my hypothesis that Bisu is so bad at PvT BoX formats is because he practices a lot against Fantasy, who is known for doing 'weird' stuff. In order to deflect weird stuff, people usually play safe/standard (i.e. Gate->Obs->Expand); which is why Bisu gets predictable and ends up losing to players who 'study' him. #4: Yes, on Destination, in any match-up. Bisu + Destination = auto-win. In particular, I remember Bisu vs. Flash and Bisu vs. Leta. Lol, I just looked it up, only Skyhigh has a better record on that map. I almost forgot Skyhigh was once a promising rookie.
Edit: If you haven't seen it, I HIGHLY recommend the Bisu vs. Leta one. Mind games at it's finest, but very different from the Stork vs. Flash mind games yesterday.
Bisu has historically always had a strong PvT. The problem with Bisu is that historically speaking his PvT has never been on the same level as his PvZ and PvP. And so it's his PvT that "holds him back." (That and his encounters with Stork, which usually go in Stork's favor.)
As for Bisu not demonstrating excellent game sense, check out his bo3 wins over Flash in GOM and in WCG. I can't remember which one of those, but there was one game in particular on Destination where he did a beautiful job spreading Flash too thin. (Which, by the way, has always been a Protoss player's best bet at winning vs Flash. You don't beat Flash's mech in a head-to-head center battle without a huge advantage. His tank use is too exceptional for that. Personally, I think there are other players who use vultures better, but Flash's overall push mechanics in particular how he uses his tanks is a step above everyone else.)
As for how good Bisu's PvT is right now, I'd place Stork, Best and Snow ahead of him. Even though Bisu has a better record in his last 10 games than any of them, I think they are all stronger PvT players and have been over the past 6+ months.
I fully agree with anyone who says that Bisu relies too heavily on his mechanics to overwhelm opponents, but that doesn't mean he has bad game sense. It just means exactly what it says: that Bisu is overly dependent on successfully forcing his opponent to engage him in a contest of mechanics. In PvT that doesn't work as well as it does in PvZ or PvP because the metagame for the match-up relies on the center battle (and has been that way for more than a decade), not so much on harassment, side battles, and pressure.
Stork is definitely ahead of Bisu, but Best and Snow not so much. Best is slumping fairly hard and Snow's good games are more rare than Bisu's(Bisu's peak games are obviously more impressive). Bisu obviously has better mechanics, even if he has the occasional slip-up in game sense. Nevertheless, his PvT certainly isn't questionable, he just lost to Flash and a guy that almost eliminated Stork from the OSL.
On February 17 2011 07:57 Mortality wrote: What are you people talking about?
Bisu has historically always had a strong PvT. The problem with Bisu is that historically speaking his PvT has never been on the same level as his PvZ and PvP. And so it's his PvT that "holds him back." (That and his encounters with Stork, which usually go in Stork's favor.)
I've never really understood the argument that his PvT is bad. He might not match-up well against the very best TvPers, but only Stork and BeSt have a better PvT record than Bisu, at least among Protoss with a reasonable number of games played.
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote: JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
By what logic?
Bisu has historically never had a strong PvT. He has never demonstrated consistent dominance in the matchup. Bisu has never won a PvT individual league finals. Hence, his default position going into this month is one of questionable skill. The two losses in Winners' League do not negate that trend. Bisu needs to demonstrate a month of dominance in PvT before that claim can be changed.
Flash, on the other hand, is 3-1 in Bo5 Finals versus Jaedong, and has a 69.8% winrate in TvZ versus Bisu's 61% winrate in PvT. Hence his TvZ position going into the month is one of unquestioned dominance. To prove that point: if you had to bet on a terran to win against any zerg, which terran would you pick? The vast majority of Starcraft watchers would pick Flash (with a section picking Light, but only a small section). But if you had to pick a protoss to win against any terran, would the vast majority pick Bisu? Hell, more people would pick Stork or Snow in that situation. Flash's loss against Zero doesn't negate that dominance.
Does that logic make sense to you?
Most PvT losses are BO losses anyhow--the matchup is the single one least susceptible to multitask/mechanics and most susceptible to game sense and management. Look at the recent Fantasy vs Stork series. Did Fanta win through superior multitask? Hell naw, he was fighting single-front battles with less than 36 units for most of the game time. By that logic it's well acknowledged on TL that Bisu has the best multitask of any P but only mediocre game sense. Hence his BO loss in PvT can strengthen that claim.
And it's not like when he gets advantageous BOs he wins either. Look at his game versus Flash. Bisu was in a position where he could expand once to 5 bases, play it safe, and seal the deal on Icarus. Instead, Bisu decides to triple expand to seven bases, knowing full well that he is playing someone with OoV/Savior-caliber game sense and timings, and who plays Terran, the race that can catch you expanding without ever leaving their base by pressing "0" and "s". Trying to excuse that sort of mistake is like blaming the campus slut for having STDs after you decided to ride bareback.
I suggest you look up his PvT record during 2009. His only significant loss was to 1) the semi-finals of the Batoo OSL against Fantasy, who is the 2nd best TvPer to have ever existed, and an excellent player when it comes to preparation. He later avenged himself in the Avalon MSL by going 2-0 against Fantasy. 2) Iris, where Bisu threw away his advantage in game 5 during the quarter-finals of the Avalon MSL.
1) How do you define significant? 2) Look at his 2010 record 3) "Never" may be too strong of a word here. How about "for the past 16 months". Remember Bisu losing 5 straight PvTs to people like Firebathero and shortly thereafter crashing out of the OSL to go.go in a Bo3? Dropping random games to scrubs is acceptable. Dropping a Bo3 to a game-fixer with one of the worst TvPs in history, while letting his opponent get away with a 1 rax double expand--that's just sad. 4) Have you ever seen a Bisu PvT where he demonstrates excellent game sense?
#1: Significant as in costing him a chance at a Starleague. Also significant as in they were Bo5s, which many consider 'the real test of skill'. #2: +60% winrate is extraordinary in the world of Progaming. Hell, even holding +50% over a modest sample, say 50 games, is enough to get you on the A-team in most cases. #3: my hypothesis that Bisu is so bad at PvT BoX formats is because he practices a lot against Fantasy, who is known for doing 'weird' stuff. In order to deflect weird stuff, people usually play safe/standard (i.e. Gate->Obs->Expand); which is why Bisu gets predictable and ends up losing to players who 'study' him. #4: Yes, on Destination, in any match-up. Bisu + Destination = auto-win. In particular, I remember Bisu vs. Flash and Bisu vs. Leta. Lol, I just looked it up, only Skyhigh has a better record on that map. I almost forgot Skyhigh was once a promising rookie.
Edit: If you haven't seen it, I HIGHLY recommend the Bisu vs. Leta one. Mind games at it's finest, but very different from the Stork vs. Flash mind games yesterday.
Don't forget, we're not arguing whether his PvT is "good"; we're arguing whether we can doubt it. Something can be "good" and questionable at the same time. In order for it to not have doubt, it has be dominant, something on the order of Flash's TvZ, for example.
1) What about proleague losses? Also, he dropped prelims games to go.go that contributed to his being relegated to offline prelims for a while... 2) What is Bisu's 2010 winrate? 3) What about dropping 5 straight PvTs in WL? And look at his PvT ELO--he can't beat strong TvPers. Bisu isn't the favorite against any strong TvP sniper--Hiya, Flash, Really, Fantasy. 4) Lol? As a sidenote, remember his game against a KT zerg on Desti that ended up lurk-containing him to 4 bases, and then Bisu slowly committed seppuku into a lurker field over and over and over again? Also, Desti isn't in the map pool any more. What we're trying to figure out is whether Bisu's TvP, as of NOW, TODAY, etc, is as dominant as Flash's TvZ.
On February 18 2011 00:32 l0st_romantic wrote: 4) Lol? As a sidenote, remember his game against a KT zerg on Desti that ended up lurk-containing him to 4 bases, and then Bisu slowly committed seppuku into a lurker field over and over and over again? Also, Desti isn't in the map pool any more. What we're trying to figure out is whether Bisu's TvP, as of NOW, TODAY, etc, is as dominant as Flash's TvZ.
First, I don't know why you're asking if Bisu's PvT is as dominant as Flash's TvZ, since you and Assymptic seem to be living in a tangent world where you are both arguing with each other and agreeing. Lightwhip's point was never that Bisu's PvT is "as good as Flash's TvZ," but that the basis for "still looking questionable at PvT" is two games that anybody could have lost and that picking at a player to that degree is silly (e.g. we could also criticize Flash for his TvZ loss to Zero, completely ignoring Flash's absurd win rate and solid play in pretty much every game except a single loss to Hyuk, which by now has been proven to be anomalous... and then some).
And I don't know where we've come to the idea that in order for a match-up to not be questionable you have to be favored to win over anyone by a lot. Basically you are saying that the only players in history to have not been "questionable" were the bonjwas.
So far this season, Bisu is 9-2 in PvT. Wins over Really (2-0, actually not very strong at TvP lately), Baby (3-0 #7 TvP ELO), Iris (2-0, #9 TvP ELO), Bogus (#4 TvP ELO), and Sea (#3 TvP ELO, even still). That's actually a very, very strong record, comparable to anything Stork is capable of producing. In terms of recent results (this season, which has now been going on for 4 months), Bisu has been doing very well. Given his poor PvT last season and given that -- while he's playing very good -- I don't feel like I've seen anything that special out of him, I don't feel hesitant to rate Stork, Best or Snow higher. Keep in mind that while Best might be 3-4 this season, he started the season off with an ELO peaking win over Flash, and likewise, while Snow is 4-4, he's faced incredibly high caliber players, including Flash twice. Yeah, he may have been looking closer to unbeatable last May when he toppled Flash, Sea, Really, and Fantasy on a 9 game win streak, but he was probably the #1 PvTer in the world at that time.
On February 16 2011 19:13 Holgerius wrote: JD still looking weak vs top players and Bisu still looking questionable in his PvT (but holy fuck his PvZ!!!). =/
Erm, Bisu questionable in PvT? He loses 2 games, 1 to Flash, 1 to someone who took a game off Stork(Bisu had a pretty bad BO disadvantage), and won the rest of his games with solid play and that makes his PvT questionable? By the same logic, I could say that Flash needs work in TvZ lategame judging only from his game vs Zero. Honestly, the only thing questionable about Bisu's play is his games vs Stork.
By what logic?
Bisu has historically never had a strong PvT. He has never demonstrated consistent dominance in the matchup. Bisu has never won a PvT individual league finals. Hence, his default position going into this month is one of questionable skill. The two losses in Winners' League do not negate that trend. Bisu needs to demonstrate a month of dominance in PvT before that claim can be changed.
Flash, on the other hand, is 3-1 in Bo5 Finals versus Jaedong, and has a 69.8% winrate in TvZ versus Bisu's 61% winrate in PvT. Hence his TvZ position going into the month is one of unquestioned dominance. To prove that point: if you had to bet on a terran to win against any zerg, which terran would you pick? The vast majority of Starcraft watchers would pick Flash (with a section picking Light, but only a small section). But if you had to pick a protoss to win against any terran, would the vast majority pick Bisu? Hell, more people would pick Stork or Snow in that situation. Flash's loss against Zero doesn't negate that dominance.
Does that logic make sense to you?
Most PvT losses are BO losses anyhow--the matchup is the single one least susceptible to multitask/mechanics and most susceptible to game sense and management. Look at the recent Fantasy vs Stork series. Did Fanta win through superior multitask? Hell naw, he was fighting single-front battles with less than 36 units for most of the game time. By that logic it's well acknowledged on TL that Bisu has the best multitask of any P but only mediocre game sense. Hence his BO loss in PvT can strengthen that claim.
And it's not like when he gets advantageous BOs he wins either. Look at his game versus Flash. Bisu was in a position where he could expand once to 5 bases, play it safe, and seal the deal on Icarus. Instead, Bisu decides to triple expand to seven bases, knowing full well that he is playing someone with OoV/Savior-caliber game sense and timings, and who plays Terran, the race that can catch you expanding without ever leaving their base by pressing "0" and "s". Trying to excuse that sort of mistake is like blaming the campus slut for having STDs after you decided to ride bareback.
I suggest you look up his PvT record during 2009. His only significant loss was to 1) the semi-finals of the Batoo OSL against Fantasy, who is the 2nd best TvPer to have ever existed, and an excellent player when it comes to preparation. He later avenged himself in the Avalon MSL by going 2-0 against Fantasy. 2) Iris, where Bisu threw away his advantage in game 5 during the quarter-finals of the Avalon MSL.
1) How do you define significant? 2) Look at his 2010 record 3) "Never" may be too strong of a word here. How about "for the past 16 months". Remember Bisu losing 5 straight PvTs to people like Firebathero and shortly thereafter crashing out of the OSL to go.go in a Bo3? Dropping random games to scrubs is acceptable. Dropping a Bo3 to a game-fixer with one of the worst TvPs in history, while letting his opponent get away with a 1 rax double expand--that's just sad. 4) Have you ever seen a Bisu PvT where he demonstrates excellent game sense?
#1: Significant as in costing him a chance at a Starleague. Also significant as in they were Bo5s, which many consider 'the real test of skill'. #2: +60% winrate is extraordinary in the world of Progaming. Hell, even holding +50% over a modest sample, say 50 games, is enough to get you on the A-team in most cases. #3: my hypothesis that Bisu is so bad at PvT BoX formats is because he practices a lot against Fantasy, who is known for doing 'weird' stuff. In order to deflect weird stuff, people usually play safe/standard (i.e. Gate->Obs->Expand); which is why Bisu gets predictable and ends up losing to players who 'study' him. #4: Yes, on Destination, in any match-up. Bisu + Destination = auto-win. In particular, I remember Bisu vs. Flash and Bisu vs. Leta. Lol, I just looked it up, only Skyhigh has a better record on that map. I almost forgot Skyhigh was once a promising rookie.
Edit: If you haven't seen it, I HIGHLY recommend the Bisu vs. Leta one. Mind games at it's finest, but very different from the Stork vs. Flash mind games yesterday.
Don't forget, we're not arguing whether his PvT is "good"; we're arguing whether we can doubt it. Something can be "good" and questionable at the same time. In order for it to not have doubt, it has be dominant, something on the order of Flash's TvZ, for example.
1) What about proleague losses? Also, he dropped prelims games to go.go that contributed to his being relegated to offline prelims for a while... 2) What is Bisu's 2010 winrate? 3) What about dropping 5 straight PvTs in WL? And look at his PvT ELO--he can't beat strong TvPers. Bisu isn't the favorite against any strong TvP sniper--Hiya, Flash, Really, Fantasy. 4) Lol? As a sidenote, remember his game against a KT zerg on Desti that ended up lurk-containing him to 4 bases, and then Bisu slowly committed seppuku into a lurker field over and over and over again? Also, Desti isn't in the map pool any more. What we're trying to figure out is whether Bisu's TvP, as of NOW, TODAY, etc, is as dominant as Flash's TvZ.
And the answer is no.
You are going completely off on tangents now. Your initial argument was that Bisu has never had good PvT, as illustrated here: "By what logic?
Bisu has historically never had a strong PvT. He has never demonstrated consistent dominance in the matchup. " My counterargument (which I proved) is that he has had good PvT for most of his career, just not the best. That's the ONLY thing my discussion with you is about; I'm not comparing Flash to Bisu at all.
Btw, his PvT winrate in 2010 was 62.50%. In other words, exceptionally good, just not Stork or Best good.
I just looked up the stats, Zerg is 30% vs terran and 40% vs protoss in WL, that really really sucks. This means, statisticly, that for a given tvx, the opponent has the chances of a s-class player against a normal player. In the same time, zerg is just owning everything in MSL.
Is that because it is harder and harder to pick balanced maps? Or is the WL format harder for zerg compared to other races? It's not great from a spectator's point of view :/
On February 19 2011 02:00 Elroi wrote: I just looked up the stats, Zerg is 30% vs terran and 40% vs protoss in WL, that really really sucks. This means, statisticly, that for a given tvx, the opponent has the chances of a s-class player against a normal player. In the same time, zerg is just owning everything in MSL.
Is that because it is harder and harder to pick balanced maps? Or is the WL format harder for zerg compared to other races? It's not great from a spectator's point of view :/
I think it's because of WL's format. Look... we all know that in WL, the more games you win the more games you play, right?
Just as an example, so far Protoss players have played: 66 games vs Zerg (39-27, 59.1%) 61 games vs Terran (33-28, 54.1%)
If we look at just Bisu and Stork in PvT/Z, we see a combined total of 25 games with only 4 losses. If you factor them out of the picture, Protoss is: 26-25 vs Zerg (51%) 25-26 vs Terran (49%)
This obviously is NOT a mathematically justifiable approach to looking at "racial balance," but there's a point to be made here.
There are exactly 3 players who are +10 or higher. These are the players who potentially can single-handedly alter the "balance." Stork 13-3, Flash 18-2, Bisu 20-4. In the case of Flash, many of those games were against his own race (11-0 in TvT), so they don't change the picture so very much.
In comparison, Zerg's perennial powerhouse is Jaedong, who is only 9-4. And the other higher performer among Zerg is Hydra, who is 11-5. So Zerg's top players have had less of an influence over the racial stats than Protoss's.
The only balance figure that I actually do find a concern is the TvZ balance. If you look at the players who are +2, +3, +4, or +5, all of them have a winning record against Zerg. Most of them are Terran. 3 are Protoss, 2 are Zerg (counting Jaedong).
Basically, the bottom line is that Protoss "dominance" boils down to the dominance of two superstars, with a small handful of other strong performers. Terran dominance comes from a legion of players who are slightly positive (I'm not counting Flash here because he's 1-1 vs Zerg), and especially strong against Zerg opponents.
On February 19 2011 04:16 Holgerius wrote: Look at the stats in the regular PL, pretty much perfect balance. No need to be all worried.
It wasn't really race imbalance I was aiming for, more like race imbalance on specific maps, or maybe some inherent imablance in WL-format.
Well, Progamers all agree that Terran tend to be the strongest/most important race for a team in the winners league (mentioned in a lot of interviews). Exactly why that's so is beyond me perhaps a warmed up Terran has a respectively easier time beating whatever opponent he faces with micro or such. But i digress, map and race balance is about the best I have ever seen so I'm really happy.
On February 19 2011 04:16 Holgerius wrote: Look at the stats in the regular PL, pretty much perfect balance. No need to be all worried.
For the record, right now the numbers I've got for the whole season say:
PvT 87-81 (52%) TvZ 84-62 (56%) ZvP 84-89 (48%)
From what I've tracked, these percentages have been pretty constant for the entire season so far. The major change has been PvT, which started off a little more heavily P>T and has since adjusted; and TvZ, which has been getting steadily, if only a tiny bit at a time, worse for Zerg.
PvZ looks weird but Bisu + Stork are 29-4 against Zerg, and while I don't think you can just take that out and reveal "actual balance" (you get 80-60 or essentially the same ~55% figure for ZvP as TvZ is at - in other words it would flip the apparent balance) it has to be considered a little bit. For what it's worth, TB are 14-3 against Terran - pulling this out does almost equally odd things to the PvT numbers.
TvZ may or may not have these big balancers. Flash is Flash, but "only" at 9-1. Light and TurN (17-4 between them; 26-5 with Flash) have the only other significantly T>>>Z records at the moment. Three players carries slightly more weight than two, but if we axe these three we get: 58-57 (50.04%) which is close enough for me even though it does indicate a Terran favor in the matchup overall.
In fact, that worries me most: T>Z has been a fact of life for most of BW, but it seems pronounced right now and I'm not sure whether it's maps, copying Flash, or both.
I don't think it's just Flash, but I definitely don't think it's the maps either. A number of factors have come together.
Really, if you look at Terran history, we had a number of major leaders come at ones and all be dominant virtually at the same time. Boxer -> NaDa -> Oov isn't just a 1-2-3 punch. If you look at what was happening in the months leading up to Savior's trouncing of Oov, you had all 3 of these guys at like 70+% wins in TvZ. Not to mention Midas who was supposed to be the next big thing.
To be clear, Boxer, NaDa and Oov did so much for this game that it's unimaginable to think of what it would be without them. But the dominance of an entire race has always, always, always been a product of multiple factors.
What we've seen was this: a return of the viability of mech (several people played key roles here, including Flash, but Upmagic before him and some others too), the introduction of midgame bionic -> mech transfer (thanks to Midas), experimentation with bio+mech to deal with initial mutas (think that was Upmagic), experimentation with bio+valkyrie (Fantasy), experimentation with wraiths (Leta), as well as improvements on attack timings (ForGG, Flash, and I'd like to say Light too, and some others to be sure). This isn't even counting influences that guys like Iris, Hwasin, and NaDa were putting on TvZ back in 2007-early 2008.
A lot of factors have come together. Mech is nothing new. Wraiths are nothing new. But there were some delicate issues with them that prevented them from being mainstream, obstacles that had to be overcome. Bio+mech and bio+valk didn't really catch on (but make no mistake, those experiments certainly added depth back to Terran: even a "failed" experiment can teach you a lot if you are willing to learn, and I wouldn't consider either of these experiments "failures"). Bio to mech is looking like the next big step that could push the balance further in the Terran direction.
Flash has certainly been a leader in putting these pieces together, but a lot of credit has to go to players other than Flash for figuring these things out.
ZvT had become so powerful because only in the post-Savior world, after other Zergs had learned to play "modern" Starcraft, could the full potential of mutalisk stacking and defiler management be realized.
On February 19 2011 04:16 Holgerius wrote: Look at the stats in the regular PL, pretty much perfect balance. No need to be all worried.
For the record, right now the numbers I've got for the whole season say:
PvT 87-81 (52%) TvZ 84-62 (56%) ZvP 84-89 (44%)
Your ZvP percent looks a bit off there.
I hope zergs will get their maps sooner or later. Teams like Oz and Woongjin are really suffering, sporting zerg aces and currently residing at the 2nd and 3rd to the last. As much as I like to go, lol KT and SKT zergs, they've been largely unnecessary right now, especially in winner's format.
On February 19 2011 19:07 flamewheel wrote: That Hydra.
Hydra achieved what no one could in January: he had very good results both in individual leagues and proleague. If it was January 31st I think he would deserve the number one spot. Of course Flash is having another great month, so the bar is a little higher this time. Hopefully they'll play each other in PL.
On February 19 2011 19:07 flamewheel wrote: That Hydra.
Hydra achieved what no one could in January: he had very good results both in individual leagues and proleague. If it was January 31st I think he would deserve the number one spot. Of course Flash is having another great month, so the bar is a little higher this time. Hopefully they'll play each other in PL.
Yeah, if Hydra beats Flash on Tuesday he's a guaranteed nr 1, even if he loses Flash will have to perform outstandingly to keep nr 1.
Flamewheel, I'm sorry for your ranking predicament every month, but I like the fact that you doing PR makes a lot of stuff change. It's not 100% Flash/Jaedong anymore.
On February 20 2011 00:03 Lightwip wrote: Flamewheel, I'm sorry for your ranking predicament every month, but I like the fact that you doing PR makes a lot of stuff change. It's not 100% Flash/Jaedong anymore.
Uhh... maybe it's not 100% Flash/Jaedong recently because the actual BW scene stopped being 100% Flash/Jaedong. I'd give Flamewheel a lot of credit, but I wouldn't claim that he makes stuff change over in Korea.
If Hydra performs fairly well in WL between now and the end of the month, then in my mind he's a lock for #1.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day TBLS are probably all stronger players, but PR isn't just a "skill" ranking, and even if it were, it's hard to measure the "skill" of someone like Hydra who just exploded to the top. Consider this: Hydra's ZvZ carried him through Calm, Jaedong and Great, his ZvP has been the strongest of anyone's this season, and yet historically speaking, ZvT has been his best (that is, his lifetime win % is highest in ZvT).
What for me sets Hydra as #1 is this: of all the players in all of BW, who has had the best overall season? The answer is Hydra. Not only is he our MSL champ, but unlike Fantasy who couldn't get it together outside of OSL, in PL Hydra is just a hair behind in Stork and Jaedong. He's proven that he can hang with the big dogs and we will now carry expectations of him.
As of right now 1. Hydra - Good in PL, and honestly taking the grand slam is a lock for #1-2 2/3. Flash/Bisu - 2 best PL players, we'll have to watch and see who shows more for the rest of the month. 4/5/6 - Stork/Fantasy/Jaedong - I'd say in that order. Bisu is doing well enough for Fantasy to really not get much play time, but he did have that one nice ace save. Stork has some nice games, but keeps losing to Zero. Jaedong has been disappointing, but still performing well. I'd say Stork Fanta JD, but we need to see. 7. Great- made it to the finals 8-10 No idea and I don't want to put placeholders.
On February 20 2011 01:12 Mortality wrote: If Hydra performs fairly well in WL between now and the end of the month, then in my mind he's a lock for #1.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day TBLS are probably all stronger players, but PR isn't just a "skill" ranking, and even if it were, it's hard to measure the "skill" of someone like Hydra who just exploded to the top. Consider this: Hydra's ZvZ carried him through Calm, Jaedong and Great, his ZvP has been the strongest of anyone's this season, and yet historically speaking, ZvT has been his best (that is, his lifetime win % is highest in ZvT).
What for me sets Hydra as #1 is this: of all the players in all of BW, who has had the best overall season? The answer is Hydra. Not only is he our MSL champ, but unlike Fantasy who couldn't get it together outside of OSL, in PL Hydra is just a hair behind in Stork and Jaedong. He's proven that he can hang with the big dogs and we will now carry expectations of him.
This seems like a shallow observation given just how few games Hydra has played against Terran compared to the other races overall. Even now in his breakout season, he hasn't demonstrated much of anything convincing in the matchup and remains mostly unproven.
For example, this season he's played 9 games against Terran, 15 against Protoss, and 36 against Zerg. In PL he's 3-2 against somewhat uninspiring Terran opponents. Interestingly, right after his loss to Midas against FOX, Hite's WL match against MBCTerran was one of I think only two matches all season they did not try to field Hydra.
That all isn't to say that he's terrible versus Terran, just that I need to see more to be convinced it isn't a possible weakness of his. Hopefully a test will come soon.
On February 20 2011 01:12 Mortality wrote: If Hydra performs fairly well in WL between now and the end of the month, then in my mind he's a lock for #1.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day TBLS are probably all stronger players, but PR isn't just a "skill" ranking, and even if it were, it's hard to measure the "skill" of someone like Hydra who just exploded to the top. Consider this: Hydra's ZvZ carried him through Calm, Jaedong and Great, his ZvP has been the strongest of anyone's this season, and yet historically speaking, ZvT has been his best (that is, his lifetime win % is highest in ZvT).
What for me sets Hydra as #1 is this: of all the players in all of BW, who has had the best overall season? The answer is Hydra. Not only is he our MSL champ, but unlike Fantasy who couldn't get it together outside of OSL, in PL Hydra is just a hair behind in Stork and Jaedong. He's proven that he can hang with the big dogs and we will now carry expectations of him.
This seems like a shallow observation given just how few games Hydra has played against Terran compared to the other races overall. Even now in his breakout season, he hasn't demonstrated much of anything convincing in the matchup and remains mostly unproven.
For example, this season he's played 9 games against Terran, 15 against Protoss, and 36 against Zerg. In PL he's 3-2 against somewhat uninspiring Terran opponents. Interestingly, right after his loss to Midas against FOX, Hite's WL match against MBCTerran was one of I think only two matches all season they did not try to field Hydra.
That all isn't to say that he's terrible versus Terran, just that I need to see more to be convinced it isn't a possible weakness of his. Hopefully a test will come soon.
I've said repeatedly on this forum that Hydra's ZvT is untested. But it's hard to blame him for this when he just hasn't had that many run-ins. His only "test" was a 2-0 trouncing of Classic, who under 50% vs Zerg.
Nevertheless, the observation holds. Hydra's ZvZ and ZvP have been dynamite lately, but it should not be forgotten that going into this season -- and even now at the end of the season -- ZvT is where his lifetime best stats are. And if you look at his match history, almost everyone he's played has historically been strong in TvZ, and his only losses were to people A-class or better in TvZ at the time the match was played.
It would be interesting to see Hydra vs a strong Terran like Fantasy (1-1) or Midas (1-1) in a bo5 series, but you can't really blame Hydra for the fact that no Terrans advanced to even the Ro8 in MSL.
Kind of late to comment on this, but I just noticed this particular part of the PR:
Stork is that kid that's naturally talented. He doesn't study, and does well on the pop quizzes. However, come test time, he can't deliver. Yes, I dropped Fantasy for his random failure at the end of December, but that was Fantasy failing across the board. I think Stork had way too strong of an earlier month (compared to everybody else), and even making it to a final (taking silver) and a quarterfinal means way more than to those who couldn't even get into the later rounds of even a single league.
I don't really agree with this analysis. In fact, I think it might be the opposite to a large degree. Stork has always thrived on builds. Fantasy just outdid him in that particular final in preparation, as had been the opposite when Stork really anticipated and took the initiative against Fantasy in Incruit. He might joke/brag about playing cellphone games all the time instead of practicing, but I think his mechanics are fairly lacking compared to a lot of modern players and he relies on countering with unpredictable builds.
Stork is a very strong strategic player. Among TaekBaengLeeSsang I actually think Stork is the strongest strategically.
The problem is that being the strongest strategically does not equate to being strong at preparation for a series. Hence, Flamewheel's analysis is correct: Stork has historically not been a very strong series player. To be precise, he is the weakest series player among TBLS. Because preparing for a series is more than just preparing the right builds. It's about getting in your opponents head and keeping him out of yours.
On a related note... Jaedong is the strongest series player of TBLS followed by Flash. If Jaedong and Oov were of comparable skill in the same era I would have loved to see a battle between them because Jaedong's mental fortitude is just so incredibly amazing and I would love to see Oov's ridiculous ability to get inside his opponent's head do battle against that fortitude. And with Flash the true key is not that he just rolls his opponents with superior skill, but that he is also a master at the art of cheese and he's gotten really good at using the occasional cheese to completely throw off his opponent. Which is one of the reasons why the result vs Hyuk was more to Flash's discredit (in my opinion) than to his credit back in December.
On February 20 2011 13:12 Mortality wrote:On a related note... Jaedong is the strongest series player of TBLS followed by Flash.
I have trouble squaring this with recent results. Can you explain?
He means in general. Before 6 months ago, Jaedong almost never lost a Bo5.
Oh, I know. He's still 24 - 7 (I think; Liquipedia says 23 - 6 through 2010, and I added 1 - 1 for Snow / Hydra) in Bo5 even after the last year against Flash. But if Flash has been consistently beating him for a year (and, at least to me, consistently looking better prepared and predicting his opponent better), wouldn't that make Flash better now? That's what I was asking about.
On February 21 2011 03:12 Holgerius wrote: When was the last time JD was this ''bad''? Doesn't look good at all for him now.
And by the way, is Killer actually getting good? O_o
Judging from PR, Late 2008/Early 2009. Out of both leagues, losing a lot. And Killer was good a while ago. Remember when he got to be ace over JD? No non-skilled player could do that.
On February 21 2011 03:12 Holgerius wrote: When was the last time JD was this ''bad''? Doesn't look good at all for him now.
And by the way, is Killer actually getting good? O_o
Judging from PR, Late 2008/Early 2009. Out of both leagues, losing a lot. And Killer was good a while ago. Remember when he got to be ace over JD? No non-skilled player could do that.
Hyuk was also an ace for SKT in 2008... This doesn't mean anything. All it indicates that they saw a potential in him and probably wanted to develop him...
On February 21 2011 03:12 Holgerius wrote: When was the last time JD was this ''bad''? Doesn't look good at all for him now.
And by the way, is Killer actually getting good? O_o
Judging from PR, Late 2008/Early 2009. Out of both leagues, losing a lot. And Killer was good a while ago. Remember when he got to be ace over JD? No non-skilled player could do that.
Hyuk was also an ace for SKT in 2008... This doesn't mean anything. All it indicates that they saw a potential in him and probably wanted to develop him...
That was clearly a joke. I don't think Killer could ever have been considered better than "decent." Though he was doing alright in R5 last season.
On February 21 2011 03:12 Holgerius wrote: When was the last time JD was this ''bad''? Doesn't look good at all for him now.
And by the way, is Killer actually getting good? O_o
Judging from PR, Late 2008/Early 2009. Out of both leagues, losing a lot. And Killer was good a while ago. Remember when he got to be ace over JD? No non-skilled player could do that.
Hyuk was also an ace for SKT in 2008... This doesn't mean anything. All it indicates that they saw a potential in him and probably wanted to develop him...
That was clearly a joke. I don't think Killer could ever have been considered better than "decent." Though he was doing alright in R5 last season.
Oh, I didn't get it... I think he might have been thought to be promising
On February 20 2011 13:12 Mortality wrote:On a related note... Jaedong is the strongest series player of TBLS followed by Flash.
I have trouble squaring this with recent results. Can you explain?
He means in general. Before 6 months ago, Jaedong almost never lost a Bo5.
Oh, I know. He's still 24 - 7 (I think; Liquipedia says 23 - 6 through 2010, and I added 1 - 1 for Snow / Hydra) in Bo5 even after the last year against Flash. But if Flash has been consistently beating him for a year (and, at least to me, consistently looking better prepared and predicting his opponent better), wouldn't that make Flash better now? That's what I was asking about.
You're confusing the meanings of "better player" and "better series player." I'm not talking about series record or dominance. I'm talking about your level of play in a series vs your level of play out of series. Which has NOTHING to do with your overall dominance because you are comparing a player against himself.
Jaedong has historically been stronger in series play than anywhere else, in some cases overcoming players who were either a.) stronger than JD at the time they faced or b.) at a considerable advantage at some point during the series.
Flash has been winning against Jaedong recently simply because he is the better player.
On February 20 2011 13:12 Mortality wrote:On a related note... Jaedong is the strongest series player of TBLS followed by Flash.
I have trouble squaring this with recent results. Can you explain?
He means in general. Before 6 months ago, Jaedong almost never lost a Bo5.
Oh, I know. He's still 24 - 7 (I think; Liquipedia says 23 - 6 through 2010, and I added 1 - 1 for Snow / Hydra) in Bo5 even after the last year against Flash. But if Flash has been consistently beating him for a year (and, at least to me, consistently looking better prepared and predicting his opponent better), wouldn't that make Flash better now? That's what I was asking about.
You're confusing the meanings of "better player" and "better series player." I'm not talking about series record or dominance. I'm talking about your level of play in a series vs your level of play out of series. Which has NOTHING to do with your overall dominance because you are comparing a player against himself.
Jaedong has historically been stronger in series play than anywhere else, in some cases overcoming players who were either a.) stronger than JD at the time they faced or b.) at a considerable advantage at some point during the series.
Flash has been winning against Jaedong recently simply because he is the better player.
That makes sense. Flash was over Jaedong going into the Power Outage finals, but Jaedong's performance in that series was absolutely sublime.
Of course, we will never really know, because I doubt any progamer could absoultely negate the mental trauma of seeing a round be forfeited against you due to circumstances outside of your control and seeing your dad get roughed up by security and kicked out of the arena.
It's really odd but it seems like only 2 out of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu can ever be dominant at any given time. Early 2009 it was Jaedong/Bisu, then just as Flash started to rise, Bisu went into a slump and late 2009 and all of 2010 was Flash/Jaedong. Now that Bisu has made a comeback Jaedong seems to be going into a slump.
On February 20 2011 13:12 Mortality wrote:On a related note... Jaedong is the strongest series player of TBLS followed by Flash.
I have trouble squaring this with recent results. Can you explain?
He means in general. Before 6 months ago, Jaedong almost never lost a Bo5.
Oh, I know. He's still 24 - 7 (I think; Liquipedia says 23 - 6 through 2010, and I added 1 - 1 for Snow / Hydra) in Bo5 even after the last year against Flash. But if Flash has been consistently beating him for a year (and, at least to me, consistently looking better prepared and predicting his opponent better), wouldn't that make Flash better now? That's what I was asking about.
You're confusing the meanings of "better player" and "better series player." I'm not talking about series record or dominance. I'm talking about your level of play in a series vs your level of play out of series. Which has NOTHING to do with your overall dominance because you are comparing a player against himself.
Jaedong has historically been stronger in series play than anywhere else, in some cases overcoming players who were either a.) stronger than JD at the time they faced or b.) at a considerable advantage at some point during the series.
Flash has been winning against Jaedong recently simply because he is the better player.
I would rather say that you are confusing the meanings of "bigger difference between series and non-series play" and "better series player". The first apply for JD, the second for Flash.
Flash is the better series player now by virtue of being a better player. Jaedong is, historically, an astronomical series player with very little equal, if any. There's nothing wrong with what Mortality said.
On February 20 2011 13:12 Mortality wrote: Stork is a very strong strategic player. Among TaekBaengLeeSsang I actually think Stork is the strongest strategically.
The problem is that being the strongest strategically does not equate to being strong at preparation for a series. Hence, Flamewheel's analysis is correct: Stork has historically not been a very strong series player. To be precise, he is the weakest series player among TBLS. Because preparing for a series is more than just preparing the right builds. It's about getting in your opponents head and keeping him out of yours.
I don't think Stork is the strongest in TBLS in anything. He's always been the tack-on player—still very good, mind you, but a distant fourth.
He's been an excellent series player, just not in finals. You have to be an excellent series player when you've made as many finals as he has, and that's really where he's made his mark. He's never had the type of PL success the other three have had. Until the most recent round, he's been bad in WL, which doesn't suggest the sort of natural talent the other three have.
On February 21 2011 06:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash is the better series player now by virtue of being a better player. Jaedong is, historically, an astronomical series player with very little equal, if any. There's nothing wrong with what Mortality said.
Yes, there is.
Series player is defined by combination of his "normal" play and how he can improve this play in series. JD is the player who can improve his normal game most. However his normal play is inferior to Flash's, so now, in sum, Flash series play is better than JD's.
I really don't think we disagree here, but then this
Jaedong is the strongest series player
isn't really correct as it imply that the "improving" factor is the only thing that matters. But both factors matters for that absolute statements.
Oov was the best finals player ever despite the fact he'd get his clock cleaned nowadays. Nada is the most accomplished player despite the fact he couldn't repeat the feat of winning six titles again if asked. People can hold titles in the retrospective.
On February 20 2011 13:12 Mortality wrote: Stork is a very strong strategic player. Among TaekBaengLeeSsang I actually think Stork is the strongest strategically.
The problem is that being the strongest strategically does not equate to being strong at preparation for a series. Hence, Flamewheel's analysis is correct: Stork has historically not been a very strong series player. To be precise, he is the weakest series player among TBLS. Because preparing for a series is more than just preparing the right builds. It's about getting in your opponents head and keeping him out of yours.
I don't think Stork is the strongest in TBLS in anything. He's always been the tack-on player—still very good, mind you, but a distant fourth.
You're welcome to your opinion. I disagree wholeheartedly. Flash and Jaedong are both more well-rounded Starcraft players than Stork is. And they are both better at exhibiting their true skill in series than Stork is (there, does that make all you anal retentive types out there happy? that's all I meant when I said "better series player" -_-;; you kids can stop playing semantics since I made it quite clear what I meant). Hence their superiority.
Regarding Bisu... I find him up-and-down a bit more than Stork, so I'll leave him aside. But I find it hard to imagine that Bisu could be considered better strategically than Stork. It's been said countless times in interviews by people in the business that Stork is the one creating the strategies and then Bisu ends up copying them and doing better. He does better because his execution is better, not because he's stronger strategically.
He's been an excellent series player, just not in finals. You have to be an excellent series player when you've made as many finals as he has, and that's really where he's made his mark. He's never had the type of PL success the other three have had. Until the most recent round, he's been bad in WL, which doesn't suggest the sort of natural talent the other three have.
Yes, Stork is a very strong series player. But relative to Flash and Jaedong? Fuck no. They are on a whole other level.
Stork tends to fail to bring anything special to a series. Especially in later rounds of tournaments this tends to bite him in the ass. What Flash brings to series is a touch of unpredictability. He's a master at cheese, but he doesn't normally show it. Only in series does he tend to bust it out to keep his opponent on his toes. And Jaedong... his tenacity is like nothing else this business has seen.
Edit: Regarding PL, something you have to understand is that PL favors players with strong fundamentals. In other words, execution ability. This has always been true, and in WL arguably more so since it's hard to predict which maps you will be sent out on and even harder to predict opponents.
On February 21 2011 07:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Oov was the best finals player ever despite the fact he'd get his clock cleaned nowadays. Nada is the most accomplished player despite the fact he couldn't repeat the feat of winning six titles again if asked. People can hold titles in the retrospective.
Oov is the best finals player because he did what nobody else has done yet. If somebody goes and win 10 finals out of 10 in brutal, dominat fashion, Oov won't be the best finals player anymore. The same goes for Nada's accomplishment. People can hold titles in retrospective but only so far.
And how is JD the strongest series player? Have you forgotten how Flash has always had his number in BO3? Always! It's a series too. The "Jaedong is the strongest series player" is absurdly strong statement, if you rephrase it "Jaedong was for a long time the strongest BO5 player", I've no problem with that.
From the perspective of stepping up your game in series play, bo5 counts for more than bo3. I think it should be obvious why this is the case but apparently not.
Look, ask yourself "what makes playing a series different than playing a regular match?" It's not like the skill of getting inside your opponents head and trying to predict his strategy is irrelevant in regular matches. Mind games always play a factor. So what's different?
In a series, after I play every game -- and even during the game I'm currently playing -- I have to re-evaluate my position based on what my opponent has revealed in terms of builds, strategies, mind-games, tactics, and anything else that could qualify as an advantage or disadvantage and I have to use that evaluation in order to make an educated guess on what my next approach should be in the next game. The next game is not tomorrow, it's not a week from now [Edit: by the way, in OSL and MSL you play the first game of a bo3 a week before the second game, so... that reinforces my point...], it's right now and my decision has to be made on the spot. I don't have a chance to go back to the lab or any shit like that. And each time I re-evaluate I not only need to decide my strategy with the idea in mind of defeating my opponent, but also with the idea in mind of keeping myself unpredictable so that my opponent has a more difficult time completing his evaluation.
The longer the series the more opportunities there are for this type of decision making to play a role in the outcome of the match. And when I attempt to analyze "series ability," it is this decision making that I am looking at.
Only this attribute. I do not consider any other attribute. Because I am separating "series skill" from all the other skills that comprise a player's overall skill at this game.
If you look at, for example, Fantasy vs Jaedong in the Batoo OSL finals, if that were a bo3, Fantasy would have won 2-0. I'm not saying "Fantasy was up 2-0 so of course he would have won 2-0," because a player might decide on a different order in which they use different strategies based on the length of the series so that kind of thinking is flawed. I'm saying Fantasy would have won 2-0 because Jaedong would not have had a sufficient amount of data to read Fantasy and secure the win. This is a prime example of how length of a series can effect result. After the third game, Jaedong had won regardless of the length of the series (that is, a series long enough so that at least those first 3 games were played), because Fantasy's preparation could not match JD's tenacity. bo5, bo7, bo41, whatever.
This is a clear case of where the attribute I am interested in decided the result of a series.
And I am well aware of Flash's ability at series play. By far the greatest example Flash has shown us was his win over Stork in Bacchus 08. The aggressive timing push in game 1 probably did not influence Stork's build in game 2 (14 nexus) because Stork is not some newbie who freaks out at such things. But in game 2 Flash hit Stork with BBS. And in the third game, Stork scouts early, and at one point has 2 probes chasing Flash's scouting SCV, and follows up some good early pressure with zero pressure defensive play. I had the sense that he was just completely lost.
That said, Flash vs Stork is not typical of a Flash series. Normally Flash's approach to a series is a little more like NaDa's, but in that series it was more like Boxer's or Oov's.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but not with the basic - that only the re-evaluation and subsequent change of strategy should be considered.
For me series play is combination of "normal play" (skill level), the re-evalution like you wrote, and preparation, which is different for BO1, BO3, BO5 etc. That's why I distinguish BO3 from BO5 (and both of them from BO1), because the dynamic are completely diferent, so should be the preparation. Some players may have great preparation for BO1, but lacks a simililar talent for longer series. And some others may excell in BO5 but fall short in BO3.
Why I look at this that way? Because for me it's impossible to see a series and separate those three things with absolute clarity. You may very well read your opponent perfectly and have a plan for next game, but it's hardly worth anything if you are not skilled enough to execute it. Similarily you may be terrible at adjusting your strategy, but you can overcome it with superior preparation (to a degree).
Hmm, I'm honestly not sure where Stork belongs nowadays. He really hasn't done enough to impress this month. The only thing he did this month was cheese out Flash in an interesting way, but he didn't even carry that into a team win.
Well, he played 3 games: 1 was cheesy - win 2&3 were straight - loss We can be lenient towards the game vs Stats, as Stork were busy with vs Flash preparation. But vs Sea is really matters as Sea is the strongest MBC player, and Stork was send out to snipe him. And Sea is not even in top10 in PR =)
Fantasy is an interesting person to place. He has 1 win, which is an impressive team save in ace, but on the other hand he doesn't really get a chance to play because Bisu is too good.
On February 22 2011 20:18 Holgerius wrote: 0-2 in WL after winning MSL. If he keeps this up he's definitely not a lock for #1.
Because 2 ZvZ build-order losses mean so much? It's not even like Flash or Bisu are undefeated this month either. So who else is a contender for #1 then?
JD overcame BO losses during his peak. The fact that Hydra couldn't says something, especially when his opponents were Killer and Action who have historically not had great ZvZ. Flash has only lost 1 game to Stork with a sniping build specifically prepared for one map. Bisu lost two straight up games against Hydra and Hiya. I'd say it's a tossup between Hydra and Flash, with Hydra getting extra credit for winning MSL, but losing credit for immediately losing when all he's practiced is ZvZ recently, and Flash getting credit for losing only because it's Stork and it was a snipe.
On February 21 2011 07:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Oov was the best finals player ever despite the fact he'd get his clock cleaned nowadays. Nada is the most accomplished player despite the fact he couldn't repeat the feat of winning six titles again if asked. People can hold titles in the retrospective.
Oov is the best finals player because he did what nobody else has done yet. If somebody goes and win 10 finals out of 10 in brutal, dominat fashion, Oov won't be the best finals player anymore. The same goes for Nada's accomplishment. People can hold titles in retrospective but only so far.
And how is JD the strongest series player? Have you forgotten how Flash has always had his number in BO3? Always! It's a series too. The "Jaedong is the strongest series player" is absurdly strong statement, if you rephrase it "Jaedong was for a long time the strongest BO5 player", I've no problem with that.
I think you can kind of sum up the strength of JD's series play in this single fact:
JD hadn't lost a game 5 of a BO5 until Flash beat him in BigFile.
Flash is certainly making a case for being the strongest series player ever but I don't think he's there yet.
Hydra is certainly still a very very hot candidate to take the spot, I'm not saying anything else, but it's not a 100% guaranteed thing now, which it pretty much could've been with convincing play in the post-MSL WL games . It's also pretty interesting how few ZvTs Hydra has played recently. 23 games since that loss against Bogus. Considering how relatively new he is as a top player that makes it quite hard to actually make a decent judgement of how good he actually is at the MU.
Flash is still looking almost impossible to beat. The loss against Stork hurts him of course, but it was a nicely executed one-off super cheese by another top player.
Things would've been easier if we had gotten a Hydra vs Flash game today, but Action decided to ruin that for us.
The current #2 is also doing pretty well right now, 5-1 in February.
On February 22 2011 21:08 Musou wrote: JD overcame BO losses during his peak. The fact that Hydra couldn't says something, especially when his opponents were Killer and Action who have historically not had great ZvZ. Flash has only lost 1 game to Stork with a sniping build specifically prepared for one map. Bisu lost two straight up games against Hydra and Hiya. I'd say it's a tossup between Hydra and Flash, with Hydra getting extra credit for winning MSL, but losing credit for immediately losing when all he's practiced is ZvZ recently, and Flash getting credit for losing only because it's Stork and it was a snipe.
Jaedong certainly did overcome BO losses at his peak, but even then only sometimes. It's not like he did it all the time. His strong ZvZ streak came mostly from winning all games where he had the BO advantage or mirror BO, as well as the occasional game where he had the worse BO. He also had a knack for picking the right BO (this is an important part of ZvZ, winning the mindgame before the match even starts). I might be wrong since I don't actually remember every single game and going back to check would be a lot of work, but I'm pretty sure that the JvZ OMG BO-loss reversed type of games were actually quite rare.
On February 22 2011 11:26 Lightwip wrote: Fantasy is an interesting person to place. He has 1 win, which is an impressive team save in ace, but on the other hand he doesn't really get a chance to play because Bisu is too good.
Perhaps this AK is proof enough that he doesn't really need to drop.
On February 22 2011 11:26 Lightwip wrote: Fantasy is an interesting person to place. He has 1 win, which is an impressive team save in ace, but on the other hand he doesn't really get a chance to play because Bisu is too good.
Perhaps this AK is proof enough that he doesn't really need to drop.
I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
If you try to say losing a couple of ZvZs isn't that big a deal, then winning them isn't either, which is what he did to win his MSL. You can't have it both ways. That said, I don't think it matters that much. He played just fine in the games he lost and that's what matters.
On February 23 2011 03:04 nodule wrote: although he did need to win those ZvZ's against Jaedong
And Great, what's your point? If you're saying the matchup is the issue then the players obviously don't matter. That's why it's a dumb argument when clearly that isn't the case. It took something special to beat Jaedong in that matchup, it's something much much less special to lose the ones he did in WL. A double standard and false dichotomy in one.
On February 23 2011 03:00 TwoToneTerran wrote: If you try to say losing a couple of ZvZs isn't that big a deal, then winning them isn't either, which is what he did to win his MSL. You can't have it both ways. That said, I don't think it matters that much. He played just fine in the games he lost and that's what matters.
Losing a matchup due to its unstable nature does not equate into a lesser valued matchup. I see your point about winning it might be due to the condition of the matchup as well and I can agree with that. However, the ZvZs that Hydra won were BO5, while the ones he lost were single games. Because BO5 means more games played, it reduces the likelihood that a player beat another player simply due to micro-luck factors (because that luck factor needs to happen in all games of that set). Basically winning a BO5 ZvZ shows more skill than you would if you won 1 game of ZvZ. I can imagine a C-Noob pssibly taking a single game from JD with a lucky BO, but I can't imagine that same player taking a BO5 from JD.
You made the exact same point I did. I was railing on people for picking and choosing what was important and using ZvZ's nature as their springboard for nonsense. ZvZ is a crapshoot of luck and skill, not one or the other, and you can't exclude one when it favors your point. Hydra was both lucky and good when he beat Jaedong -- he was both unlucky and, at the very least, mediocre when he lost his ZvZs. People want to say he either blew it or is a hero and it doesn't matter, when in reality it's more in the middle.
I don't think he played particularly bad enough in the games he lost to think he's either bad or in a slump, but he's not impressing anyone at the very least.
Well, who is the best player nowadays? Progamers and coaches dream about him before a game. He induces risky strategies, discourages playing standard . He can disturb the mind of a player by just sitting in the chair. When his first workers start mining, he's already winning. When he's losing, he makes his opponent hesitate. He faces the best players like they are average. He ends winning streaks and doesn't care about momentum. He helps his teammates while sitting on the bench. He's name is Lee Young Ho, AKA Flash.
On February 22 2011 11:26 Lightwip wrote: Fantasy is an interesting person to place. He has 1 win, which is an impressive team save in ace, but on the other hand he doesn't really get a chance to play because Bisu is too good.
Perhaps this AK is proof enough that he doesn't really need to drop.
Allkilling Fox isn't much of an accomplishment.
Even AKing ACE is a decent accomplishment. But considering the unimpressive performances of Stork and Jaedong right now, I think Fantasy deserves #4. Bisu/Flash/Hydra for #1/2/3 in some order. Not sure who should be higher between Stork and Jaedong.
Jaedong beat ZvZ BO advantages when other zergs sucked at ZvZ. The matchup has evolved a lot since then and so has muta/ling control by progamers. While I don't particularly think Hydra should be number one nor that his loses in ZvZ shouldn't count against him (they should), to say "JD was way better in his prime" like it should mean anything is stupid.
On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote: I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters.
Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote: I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters.
Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
And we go back to how bias (on who you "think" is more favored) should weigh more than an entire tournament run? Results should matter more instead of these "what if" scenarios.
On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote: I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters.
Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
If we went solely on that Flash would have been #1 even when he was dropping out of individual leagues. Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind. Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote: I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters.
Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
If we went solely on that Flash would have been #1 even when he was dropping out of individual leagues. Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind. Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
On the other hand, Flash has only lost to Stork this month, against an obscene all-in. Hydra lost to killer and action.
Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind. Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
Such comparison is wrong. It is not like Flash has a chance to beat Bisu or JD. They played different games on different maps, you can compare stats in such direct way. The idea of PR is to take monthly performance data and make best guess. The more games played, ( vs different races and players of different calibers) - the more certainty you can put into estimated value. Currently Hydra is a dark horse, his performance unstable, and it is hard to figure out expectation value of his skill.
Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind. Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
Such comparison is wrong. It is not like Flash has a chance to beat Bisu or JD. They played different games on different maps, you can compare stats in such direct way. The idea of PR is to take monthly performance data and make best guess. The more games played, ( vs different races and players of different calibers) - the more certainty you can put into estimated value. Currently Hydra is a dark horse, his performance unstable, and it is hard to figure out expectation value of his skill.
Well yeah but you cant say hypothetically Flash would have won against Bisu and Jaedong and discredit the fact Hydra accomplished far more than Flash.
Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind. Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
Such comparison is wrong. It is not like Flash has a chance to beat Bisu or JD. They played different games on different maps, you can compare stats in such direct way. The idea of PR is to take monthly performance data and make best guess. The more games played, ( vs different races and players of different calibers) - the more certainty you can put into estimated value. Currently Hydra is a dark horse, his performance unstable, and it is hard to figure out expectation value of his skill.
Well yeah but you cant say hypothetically Flash would have won against Bisu and Jaedong and discredit the fact Hydra accomplished far more than Flash.
But the rank is meant to say who is the best. Accomplishments are helpful when trying to decide, but I don't think you could say that Fantasy and hydra are better that Flash right now.
Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind. Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
Such comparison is wrong. It is not like Flash has a chance to beat Bisu or JD. They played different games on different maps, you can compare stats in such direct way. The idea of PR is to take monthly performance data and make best guess. The more games played, ( vs different races and players of different calibers) - the more certainty you can put into estimated value. Currently Hydra is a dark horse, his performance unstable, and it is hard to figure out expectation value of his skill.
Well yeah but you cant say hypothetically Flash would have won against Bisu and Jaedong and discredit the fact Hydra accomplished far more than Flash.
But the rank is meant to say who is the best. Accomplishments are helpful when trying to decide, but I don't think you could say that Fantasy and hydra are better that Flash right now.
Yes I can! Fantasy > Flash right now and Hydra is just riding the golden curse, he'll bounce back right up!
Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind. Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
Such comparison is wrong. It is not like Flash has a chance to beat Bisu or JD. They played different games on different maps, you can compare stats in such direct way. The idea of PR is to take monthly performance data and make best guess. The more games played, ( vs different races and players of different calibers) - the more certainty you can put into estimated value. Currently Hydra is a dark horse, his performance unstable, and it is hard to figure out expectation value of his skill.
Well yeah but you cant say hypothetically Flash would have won against Bisu and Jaedong and discredit the fact Hydra accomplished far more than Flash.
But the rank is meant to say who is the best. Accomplishments are helpful when trying to decide, but I don't think you could say that Fantasy and hydra are better that Flash right now.
Yes I can! Fantasy > Flash right now and Hydra is just riding the golden curse, he'll bounce back right up!
On February 23 2011 09:51 Xiphos wrote: Fantasy > Flash right now
I think you'll find that a vast majority of all people of this site would disagree with that.
You have to admit it, Fantasy is doing SOO much better than Flash. He just won a freaken GOLD at OSL a FREAKEN gold! AND that AK, oh boy don't get me started!
On February 23 2011 09:16 flamewheel wrote: lol this is gonna suck again
Thanks for taking this hit for us so that we can get more out of BW than just Flash>JD 3 times in a row. Hmm, this PR looks harder to make than I originally thought...
On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote: I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters.
Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
And we go back to how bias (on who you "think" is more favored) should weigh more than an entire tournament run? Results should matter more instead of these "what if" scenarios.
No but if the power rank was based on statistics then it could be generated by a computer/algorithim. It isn't, it's based on quality of gameplay and a subjective feeling of "power" that a player carries.
On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote: I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters.
Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
If we went solely on that Flash would have been #1 even when he was dropping out of individual leagues. Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind. Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
Of course statistics should be considered. Flash had a beastly month statistically. It has to go both ways, you can't consider only subjective game quality and you can't consider only statistical accomplishment.
Flash: 6-1 overall, 0-1 vs top 10 Fantasy: 5-1 overall, 0-0 vs top 10 Stork: 3-3 overall, 1-1 vs top 10 Bisu: 7-2 overall, 1-1 vs top 10 Jaedong: 5-6 overall, 3-4 vs top 10 Hydra: 9-5 overall, 4-2 vs top 10 ZerO: 5-5 overall, 1-0 vs top 10 Snow: 2-2 overall, 0-1 vs top 10 Bogus: 1-2 overall, 0-0 vs top 10 Violet: get well soon!
Others: All-Kills or 3-Kills: none not on top 10
Individual Leagues: great: 5-6, 4-4 vs top 10
High Elo: Light: 3-2, 1-0 vs top 10 Sea: 4-2, 1-1 vs top 10 Baby: 2-2, 1-2 vs top 10 Stats: 2-1, 1-0 vs top 10 Kal: 3-2, 0-0 vs top 10
On February 23 2011 09:51 Xiphos wrote: Fantasy > Flash right now
I think you'll find that a vast majority of all people of this site would disagree with that.
You have to admit it, Fantasy is doing SOO much better than Flash. He just won a freaken GOLD at OSL a FREAKEN gold! AND that AK, oh boy don't get me started!
I really don't think an AK vs Fox makes up for pretty subpar performance in the rest of WL. Based on the quality of the games I really don't see how you can hold Fantasy over Flash. Now Hydra I can see since he both won a gold and has been playing well but then he has got to stop frigging losing to fairly mediocre opponents.
On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote: I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters.
Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
And we go back to how bias (on who you "think" is more favored) should weigh more than an entire tournament run? Results should matter more instead of these "what if" scenarios.
No but if the power rank was based on statistics then it could be generated by a computer/algorithim. It isn't, it's based on quality of gameplay and a subjective feeling of "power" that a player carries.
My problem is on how the subjectivity weighs more. Not that I want the rank to reflect on pure statistics).
Your original statement clearly points on that: stating that being a favorite in a "what-if" Bo5 match between Hydra and Flash right now would equate to a Flash victory. Such a leap of faith here. Specially since Flash has not played a BoX in months and it is in these intervening months that Hydra has shown an increase in BoX play.
I will argue here again, just as I had argued for Fantasy when he got his OSL gold: why is the dominant playstyle that the champion displayed in the individual league less valued than in proleague?
On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote: I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters.
Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
And we go back to how bias (on who you "think" is more favored) should weigh more than an entire tournament run? Results should matter more instead of these "what if" scenarios.
No but if the power rank was based on statistics then it could be generated by a computer/algorithim. It isn't, it's based on quality of gameplay and a subjective feeling of "power" that a player carries.
My problem is on how the subjectivity weighs more. Not that I want the rank to reflect on pure statistics).
Your original statement clearly points on that: stating that being a favorite in a "what-if" Bo5 match between Hydra and Flash right now would equate to a Flash victory. Such a leap of faith here. Specially since Flash has not played a BoX in months and it is in these intervening months that Hydra has shown an increase in BoX play.
I will argue here again, just as I had argued for Fantasy when he got his OSL gold: why is the dominant playstyle that the champion displayed in the individual league less valued than in proleague?
Hydra hasn't played a BoX in his life (that really mattered) until the last few weeks, Flash has played BoX for all his life. When Flash was plowing through individual leagues Hydra was still struggling with the prelim/group stages.
And Fantasy, that is because his losses clearly shows his weaknesses when he doesn't get to prepare hard. If he is really dominant then he wouldn't have lost to the likes of Horang2 and Jaehoon. And they did play straight up.
@mnesthes: eh? I thought that what matters most for the new power rank is the "last few weeks"?
Why bring Flash and Hydra's history into this? Career-wise I won't argue that Flash is top 1 but if that is the case (ranking players based on play history) then I don't think we even need to debate the positions for the next 5 ranks...
On February 23 2011 16:00 Evs wrote: @mnesthes: eh? I thought that what matters most for the new power rank is the "last few weeks"?
Why bring Flash and Hydra's history into this? Career-wise I won't argue that Flash is top 1 but if that is the case (ranking players based on play history) then I don't think we even need to debate the positions for the next 5 ranks...
Look, I don't want to rank players based on career history either, it's just there's no one scary enough to trump Flash's position right now. Hydra might have had the fear factor after winning the MSL but he then lost ZvZ to Killer and Action which blew pretty much of it.
On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote: I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters.
Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
And we go back to how bias (on who you "think" is more favored) should weigh more than an entire tournament run? Results should matter more instead of these "what if" scenarios.
No but if the power rank was based on statistics then it could be generated by a computer/algorithim. It isn't, it's based on quality of gameplay and a subjective feeling of "power" that a player carries.
My problem is on how the subjectivity weighs more. Not that I want the rank to reflect on pure statistics).
Your original statement clearly points on that: stating that being a favorite in a "what-if" Bo5 match between Hydra and Flash right now would equate to a Flash victory. Such a leap of faith here. Specially since Flash has not played a BoX in months and it is in these intervening months that Hydra has shown an increase in BoX play.
I will argue here again, just as I had argued for Fantasy when he got his OSL gold: why is the dominant playstyle that the champion displayed in the individual league less valued than in proleague?
Yeah, Hydra showed an increase in BoX play... When he all he played were zergs. He hasn't even played against a terran in over a month. Flash, on the other hand, has won three Bo5s against arguably the best zerg player ever. He's been in SEVEN FINALS. You think that just because he hasn't made it to one in a bit he's going to somehow lose all that experience?
On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote: I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters.
Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
And we go back to how bias (on who you "think" is more favored) should weigh more than an entire tournament run? Results should matter more instead of these "what if" scenarios.
No but if the power rank was based on statistics then it could be generated by a computer/algorithim. It isn't, it's based on quality of gameplay and a subjective feeling of "power" that a player carries.
My problem is on how the subjectivity weighs more. Not that I want the rank to reflect on pure statistics).
Your original statement clearly points on that: stating that being a favorite in a "what-if" Bo5 match between Hydra and Flash right now would equate to a Flash victory. Such a leap of faith here. Specially since Flash has not played a BoX in months and it is in these intervening months that Hydra has shown an increase in BoX play.
I will argue here again, just as I had argued for Fantasy when he got his OSL gold: why is the dominant playstyle that the champion displayed in the individual league less valued than in proleague?
Yeah, Hydra showed an increase in BoX play... When he all he played were zergs. He hasn't even played against a terran in over a month. Flash, on the other hand, has won three Bo5s against arguably the best zerg player ever. He's been in SEVEN FINALS. You think that just because he hasn't made it to one in a bit he's going to somehow lose all that experience?
You just CANT say that! We are talking about this month!
Bonjwa is doing everything he can to continue his dominance after a few fluke losses 2 months ago but whatever if people want to put Hydra first do so, i can't be arsed to care that much anymore
imo Hydra need to prove that he can keep it up, because this time the other contester i playing superb. and whatever happens flash will probably just be #1 next month anyway so go on and argue for an incorrect powerrank lol
On February 24 2011 12:13 FakePlasticLove wrote: Killer, Hiya, JD in the ranking?
Also Kal still stucks, all his wins come from playing ACE.
1. Flash 2. Hydra 3. Bisu 4. Fantasy 5. Stork 6. Jaedong 7. ZerO 8. Killer 9. Hiya 10. Great
Pretty nice ranking, though I'd put Hydra above Flash because taking the grand slam does mean quite a bit. He may have lost in a not-so-great fashion afterwards, but keeping it together long enough to get a title means quite a bit.
Every time someone suggests that Flash might not be #1 a million fanboys come out screaming about how great Flash is. We get it. He's the best damn player in the world and has been for over a year now. It's still nice to celebrate other players and not just leave Flash in #1 for 12+ months straight or whatever. Go look at Elo/KeSPA if you want that. As a Zerg supporter I can say that seeing the same Terran in the #1 spot all the damn time is making me kind of hate the game. I barely watched any BW all of 2010 because it was all Flash all the time, and I found it hugely refreshing to see some variety this year. I know that if Flash takes dual golds again next season I'll probably stop caring about BW once again and just keep an eye on things for the time when Flash finally falls from his throne.
So what I'm saying is that if nothing else, at least use the little bit of subjectivity built into the PR to throw a bone to the Protoss and Zerg supporters out there once in a while to make them feel like this game isn't just about the one wunderkind Terran player. Please.
There's still a week to go before the end of the month, but at the moment I think the PR writer should consider putting not just Hydra above Jaedong, but Zero also. Both Zero and Jaedong were eliminated in the semifinals of the MSL, and while Jaedong would smash Zero in a ZvZ, Zero has wins over Flash and Stork in proleague recently while Jaedong continues to fall to S class players.
On February 24 2011 13:55 Goragoth wrote: So what I'm saying is that if nothing else, at least use the little bit of subjectivity built into the PR to throw a bone to the Protoss and Zerg supporters out there once in a while to make them feel like this game isn't just about the one wunderkind Terran player. Please.
So you're saying that the Power Rank should be less of a ranking of actual performance and more of a wish list?
On February 24 2011 13:55 Goragoth wrote: Every time someone suggests that Flash might not be #1 a million fanboys come out screaming about how great Flash is. We get it. He's the best damn player in the world and has been for over a year now. It's still nice to celebrate other players and not just leave Flash in #1 for 12+ months straight or whatever. Go look at Elo/KeSPA if you want that. As a Zerg supporter I can say that seeing the same Terran in the #1 spot all the damn time is making me kind of hate the game. I barely watched any BW all of 2010 because it was all Flash all the time, and I found it hugely refreshing to see some variety this year. I know that if Flash takes dual golds again next season I'll probably stop caring about BW once again and just keep an eye on things for the time when Flash finally falls from his throne.
So what I'm saying is that if nothing else, at least use the little bit of subjectivity built into the PR to throw a bone to the Protoss and Zerg supporters out there once in a while to make them feel like this game isn't just about the one wunderkind Terran player. Please.
What? The point of the power rank is who's the performing the best out there, not "Let's give this guy a high rank just for fun." Incidentally, kinda funny how you complain about Flash fans saying that he's the best (when you admit that he is) and then go on to rant about how much you hate it when he wins. Yeah, nobody does that.
On February 24 2011 13:55 Goragoth wrote: So what I'm saying is that if nothing else, at least use the little bit of subjectivity built into the PR to throw a bone to the Protoss and Zerg supporters out there once in a while to make them feel like this game isn't just about the one wunderkind Terran player. Please.
So you're saying that the Power Rank should be less of a ranking of actual performance and more of a wish list?
It is plainly obvious that I'm not saying that at all. If the PR was just about who the best player in the world is then Flash would have been #1 for the last 12 month or more. Since he was not, it is easy to conclude that the PR is about more than just who the best player is and also about performance and achievements over the last month or so. Using this well established criteria it is easy to place Hydra at #1 this month over Flash even though we all know Flash is the best in the world. Unless you are saying that the PR has been rubbish every month over the last year where Flash wasn't #1 and that you have some sort of authority over determining what a valid PR should look like (hint: only the PR writer has that).
Anyway, the month isn't over yet, but unless we see Hydra losing games other than ZvZ build order losses he should (IMO) be #1 next month.
Both times that Flash was knocked down from the #1 spot since late '09 he totally deserved it. When JD reclaimed the spot Flash was in the middle of that ace game losing streak and had not really delivered to his full potential for a while (then he decided to become God again when the Starleagues reached the BoX stages and won dual leagues), and when Stork stole the position Flash got knocked out of both leagues while Stork was all of a sudden playing like a Protoss version of Flash when he started dominating at the end of '09.
Right now though, Flash is not showing any sign of weakness and I think most people would have him as a strong favourite to win both OSL and MSL in the upcoming season. He is looking just as good as ever. The only thing that Flash has speaking against him is that he didn't get any Starleague results last season, but that was due to 3 losses 2 months ago that I think we can all agree, based on how he has played before that (dual golds and all that good jazz) and afterwards (20-2 :O), were just a fluke (not saying Flash didn't deserve to lose those games, he did, just that they don't show any declining trend in his play and a similar situation is extremely unlikely to happen again).
Your way of arguing in that post, that Zerg and Protoss fans get sad by how dominating Flash is and want to have a bone thrown at ya or else you'll stop following the game, is horrible. I'd be quite ok with him at #1 (I would have Flash there, but I'm biased), but not for that reason. If you wanna argue for Hydra, do it properly.
On February 24 2011 12:13 FakePlasticLove wrote: Killer, Hiya, JD in the ranking?
Also Kal still stucks, all his wins come from playing ACE.
1. Flash 2. Hydra 3. Bisu 4. Fantasy 5. Stork 6. Jaedong 7. ZerO 8. Killer 9. Hiya 10. Great
Pretty nice ranking, though I'd put Hydra above Flash because taking the grand slam does mean quite a bit. He may have lost in a not-so-great fashion afterwards, but keeping it together long enough to get a title means quite a bit.
Grand slam? What do you mean by that?
Isn't that the OSL/MSL/PL championships, all in one? Hydra hasn't come anywhere close to that.
To borrow a phrase from Flash haters, "all Hydra did for the OSL was micro mutas".
On February 24 2011 13:55 Goragoth wrote: Every time someone suggests that Flash might not be #1 a million fanboys come out screaming about how great Flash is. We get it. He's the best damn player in the world and has been for over a year now. It's still nice to celebrate other players and not just leave Flash in #1 for 12+ months straight or whatever. Go look at Elo/KeSPA if you want that. As a Zerg supporter I can say that seeing the same Terran in the #1 spot all the damn time is making me kind of hate the game. I barely watched any BW all of 2010 because it was all Flash all the time, and I found it hugely refreshing to see some variety this year. I know that if Flash takes dual golds again next season I'll probably stop caring about BW once again and just keep an eye on things for the time when Flash finally falls from his throne.
So what I'm saying is that if nothing else, at least use the little bit of subjectivity built into the PR to throw a bone to the Protoss and Zerg supporters out there once in a while to make them feel like this game isn't just about the one wunderkind Terran player. Please.
But if he is the #1 best player in the world why would he not be ranked #1 lol
if you care that much about the power rank that you can't enjoy watching starcraft then I don't know what to say. don't watch flash games then
On February 24 2011 13:55 Goragoth wrote: Every time someone suggests that Flash might not be #1 a million fanboys come out screaming about how great Flash is. We get it. He's the best damn player in the world and has been for over a year now. It's still nice to celebrate other players and not just leave Flash in #1 for 12+ months straight or whatever. Go look at Elo/KeSPA if you want that. As a Zerg supporter I can say that seeing the same Terran in the #1 spot all the damn time is making me kind of hate the game. I barely watched any BW all of 2010 because it was all Flash all the time, and I found it hugely refreshing to see some variety this year. I know that if Flash takes dual golds again next season I'll probably stop caring about BW once again and just keep an eye on things for the time when Flash finally falls from his throne.
So what I'm saying is that if nothing else, at least use the little bit of subjectivity built into the PR to throw a bone to the Protoss and Zerg supporters out there once in a while to make them feel like this game isn't just about the one wunderkind Terran player. Please.
What? The point of the power rank is who's the performing the best out there, not "Let's give this guy a high rank just for fun." Incidentally, kinda funny how you complain about Flash fans saying that he's the best (when you admit that he is) and then go on to rant about how much you hate it when he wins. Yeah, nobody does that.
On February 24 2011 13:55 Goragoth wrote: Every time someone suggests that Flash might not be #1 a million fanboys come out screaming about how great Flash is. We get it. He's the best damn player in the world and has been for over a year now. It's still nice to celebrate other players and not just leave Flash in #1 for 12+ months straight or whatever. Go look at Elo/KeSPA if you want that. As a Zerg supporter I can say that seeing the same Terran in the #1 spot all the damn time is making me kind of hate the game. I barely watched any BW all of 2010 because it was all Flash all the time, and I found it hugely refreshing to see some variety this year. I know that if Flash takes dual golds again next season I'll probably stop caring about BW once again and just keep an eye on things for the time when Flash finally falls from his throne.
So what I'm saying is that if nothing else, at least use the little bit of subjectivity built into the PR to throw a bone to the Protoss and Zerg supporters out there once in a while to make them feel like this game isn't just about the one wunderkind Terran player. Please.
The great thing about Brood War is that it feels honest and feels fair. If we put sports in a continuum having fair results vs pleasing fans, with Chinese Soccer, the NFL, and Pro Wrestling at one end and the Olympics or Goodwill Games at the other end, then BW should go nearer to the latter.
It would be stupid to take that away from BW just for the short term retention of some fans. In the long run the way you keep them is by making them feel that the results are worthwhile and mean something.
On February 24 2011 13:55 Goragoth wrote: Every time someone suggests that Flash might not be #1 a million fanboys come out screaming about how great Flash is.
Did you forget last month's ranking? Where Flash got knocked down to 5 and the first 10 pages of the comments were "Nice, agreeable ranking," ? The fanbase only comes out frothing at the mouth when they've got something to froth over.
On February 25 2011 03:11 l0st_romantic wrote:Grand slam? What do you mean by that?
No, it's just one SL in my opinion. But Winning a starleague is quite an accomplishment and I think deserves #1. Flash is 6-1 this month, with an AK and a 2 kill, which isn't anywhere near as good as a SL win. It really depends on how much you value his past accomplishments, and IMO getting it together long enough to win a SL convincingly is worth more.
The Gold Grand Slam isn't something that exists anymore. It's a title that existed back when there were 3 legitimate Starleagues. GhemTV happened to go out of business bringing us down to 2 Starleauges.
These days you cannot do better than 2 Starleague golds at the same time. That is the best. The thing about trying to include teamleague to make a "new" Gold Grand Slam award is that no teamleague has ever been won by only one dominant player carrying the team. Even when OZ and KT do well, take a good hard look: the players supporting Flash/JD are pulling their weight at these times. Even with WL this season that has been true and WL is the only time a single player actually can carry a team. Actually, until Fantasy scored his AK, the closest case to a single player carrying a team was actually Bisu, since SKT has been abysmal in WL this season other than Bisu (only 2 players in the positive and Fantasy was only +1 prior to his AK).
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Flash fans pat themselves on the back for not bitching real hard the moment the Jan 1 ranking came out, but that lasted how long before people were saying "why is Flash only at #5?" Two weeks? And when appreciation threads for retired great players come out, do Flash fans really have to party crash?
Some are worse than others, obviously, but it's pretty bad. TBLS fans in general can get a bit obnoxious. There are other players doing some very interesting things that don't get recognized at all. Power Rank threads always turn into a discussion purely of TBLS placement without consideration of anyone else even when the TBLS placement should be considered fine based on results and accomplishments.
The fanbase that is the worst is the one that's following the most dominant player. It was just as bad if not moreso when Bisu won Gom and MSL in the same season, when Jaedong started winning title after title every season etc. It's probably why Stork has the fewest fans because he hasn't had a real dominant period since the massive influx of fans from GOM, which is why everyone for the longest time was saying that Stork fans were the nicest ones.
Then Stork started kicking ass in both tourneys and proleague last month and they became rowdy as hell out of nowhere. Success breeds outrageous fans I guess.
On February 25 2011 12:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: The fanbase that is the worst is the one that's following the most dominant player. It was just as bad if not moreso when Bisu won Gom and MSL in the same season, when Jaedong started winning title after title every season etc. It's probably why Stork has the fewest fans because he hasn't had a real dominant period since the massive influx of fans from GOM.
The period just a few weeks ago was pretty damn bad with Stork fans...
On February 25 2011 12:17 Mortality wrote: Power Rank threads always turn into a discussion purely of TBLS placement without consideration of anyone else even when the TBLS placement should be considered fine based on results and accomplishments.
To be fair, I think that lower ranks are more or less straightforward. Usually there's one player who is clearly above the other.
On February 25 2011 12:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: The fanbase that is the worst is the one that's following the most dominant player. It was just as bad if not moreso when Bisu won Gom and MSL in the same season, when Jaedong started winning title after title every season etc. It's probably why Stork has the fewest fans because he hasn't had a real dominant period since the massive influx of fans from GOM.
The period just a few weeks ago was pretty damn bad with Stork fans...
You know exactly the timeframe that I'm talking about. I'm not sure why you bring up the exact followup to it that got them to quiet down.
On February 25 2011 12:17 Mortality wrote: Power Rank threads always turn into a discussion purely of TBLS placement without consideration of anyone else even when the TBLS placement should be considered fine based on results and accomplishments.
To be fair, I think that lower ranks are more or less straightforward. Usually there's one player who is clearly above the other.
Not true at all. This past season was a fluke of strange outcomes. It's unusual that the two most dominant players in PL would both be unable to advance past the Ro16, and it's also unusual that a player will just out of nowhere deliver a mammoth win streak only to crash right after (Fantasy and Shine in Dec.), and we also had a player emerge out of nowhere to win a SL title, and another player advance to the final despite not being maybe a bit underrated but nothing special in the past (hell, even now Great isn't a player I'd pick as even Ro4 material for next season). Usual the first 4-5 rankings fill out fairly nicely. But people bitch and moan and whine like little whores because "omg, even though JD and Flash feel so close right now, I can't bear the thought that my fan favorite would be ranked #2."
And so you get 1000 post discussions over trivialities. And I'll admit that I've contributed to those post counts by quite a bit, but there's a reason I typically defend the PR author: that kind of discussion is the drivel that makes PR threads into a cesspool.
This season... looking at it in retrospect I feel somewhat vindicated. There's a whole field of players that people need to be looking out for, not just three or four.
This is the kind of discussion I'd prefer to see more of: -Do Fantasy's results show that he is overly dependent on Coach Oov? To be honest, I feel Fantasy has a lot of natural talent and plays an incredibly solid game of standard SC, but I feel that unlike Flash, he hasn't really fleshed out his style. -Do Great's results revise our opinion of him? He's not a player that's especially stood out. At times looked good, at times looked bad, ELO peak under 2200, which in this day and age is uninspiring. But he's been an ace on his team before, he's over 50% in every matchup (lifetime), and he's advanced into bo5 stages before, and honestly, no matter how much you wanna say that "he's a ZvZ sniper in a Zerg heavy field," the reality is that he escaped the second hardest Ro32 group (Leta+Soulkey+Fantasy, breaking Leta's 10 game win streak) and then defeated Kal with solid play. -Now that Snow has finally seems to be finding his footing in PvZ, is he going to make good on growing from a lamb to a lion? -On a related note, is it a coincidence that all three of the "lambs into lions" fell into a slump recently, or a sign that all three of them had made it into the big leagues before they were really ready?
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right?
I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right?
I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP.
Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something.
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right?
I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP.
Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash, and he's not a massive underdog. He may not be favored, but he's not a massive underdog. But that's beside the point; l0st is clearly trolling.
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right?
I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP.
Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash, and he's not a massive underdog. He may not be favored, but he's not a massive underdog. But that's beside the point; l0st is clearly trolling.
On February 26 2011 09:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Clearly that topic should be how great Flash is and how every other progamer is made of poop.
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right?
I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP.
Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash, and he's not a massive underdog. He may not be favored, but he's not a massive underdog. But that's beside the point; l0st is clearly trolling.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash? I'd wonder what liquibet would say if they ever had to play against each other.
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right?
I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP.
Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash, and he's not a massive underdog. He may not be favored, but he's not a massive underdog. But that's beside the point; l0st is clearly trolling.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash? I'd wonder what liquibet would say if they ever had to play against each other.
Bisu wins every poll. Including Terran of the Year.
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right?
I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP.
Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash, and he's not a massive underdog. He may not be favored, but he's not a massive underdog. But that's beside the point; l0st is clearly trolling.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash? I'd wonder what liquibet would say if they ever had to play against each other.
Yeah, Bisu could beat Flash. I wouldn't favor him in a game against Flash but anyone who thinks it's impossible or highly unlikely is being very biased. The fact of the matter is, Bisu is either the best or second best Protoss right now. So yeah, while vT is his worst matchup and while I would definitely say that Flash is favored in a match I don't think it'd be super one-sided. Mostly because their most recent matches haven't been crazy one-sided slaughters. Their game on Icarus for example, Bisu looked really fucking good and he definitely could have won it.
Bisu looked really fucking good and he definitely could have won it.
I doubt that handsome face can help him vs Flash. Anyway last results show as that Bisu is kinda one-sided player, and quite shaky in all mu besides PvZ. And all his failures cost his team a win.
On February 26 2011 23:10 naruto9838 wrote: I think Fantasy should've gone on higher, since he beat his Silver Streak, and he didn't get crowned by Yellow.
I'd put Fantasy higher than Hydra. He's 1-1 against Hydra, but his win is more recent and he won the OSL, which is more reputable than MSL.
On February 26 2011 23:10 naruto9838 wrote: I think Fantasy should've gone on higher, since he beat his Silver Streak, and he didn't get crowned by Yellow.
I'd put Fantasy higher than Hydra. He's 1-1 against Hydra, but his win is more recent and he won the OSL, which is more reputable than MSL.
Agreed. Hydra is doing really bad lately, losing to some random zergs even one day after the MSL final. Fantasy did lose vs Stork right after winning, but it was Stork, not killer or action.
The eye test (you know, actually watching the games) tells me that Bisu is heavy underdog against Flash on a reasonable map. Bisu is the most skilled Protoss and a top 2 Protoss any day of the week right now and does seem to play well against Flash but their styles mismatch in a way that really favors Flash.
Obviously it's not like 95/5 Flash more like 75/25 or maybe 80/20 Flash. You're talking a player who really doesn't get PvT (Bisu) against a player who seems to fully understand TvP (Flash). That's why you see so many games where it looks like Bisu has a chance but over the course of a long game the number of opportunities for Flash's superior game understanding to shine through increases a lot, and he's likely to find a way. You don't even need to just watch Bisu vs Flash to realize this. Watch Bisu versus some (decent but ultimately mediocre) Terran and you get all the information you need about his (lack of) understanding of the matchup, like his recent loss to Hiya (Hiya's good but there's no excuse to lose PvT to someone who's not a top Terran) or his painful victory against Frozen on TvP graveyard Aztec.
The point is Flash is obviously not 100 times better than Bisu or something like that but their styles mismatch, just like Best's style used to mismatch with Flash in a way that made it tough for Flash to beat Best even though Flash really was playing way better at the time. Sometimes it's got something to do with styles just as much as raw skill. Some maps favor Bisu's style (Destination, which he was amazing on) and other maps favor PvT absurdly (Medusa) and that's where Bisu got most of his wins. The best win he's had against Flash in the past few years was the game on Sin Chupong in GOM ro8 game 2 the year he won GOM. Of course this isn't meant to discount his great wins on Destination and Medusa (some of the best TvPs ever played) but it just doesn't feel like on most maps he can overcome the difference in understanding of the matchup.
On February 26 2011 22:37 sixfour wrote: 1 Flash 2 Bisu 3 Hydra 4 Jaedong 5 Fantasy 6 Stork 7 Kal 8 Killer? 9 Zero? 10 Movie?
Jeadong too hight for sure this month, just watch his last games. He FAILED his credit of doubt in my eyes and I think he should be punished for this. Fantasy should be highter than Hydra, he just ended his 6 wins streak (while all-killed Fox, that should count as well), while Hydra still cant recover from a shock after his win in MSL. Stork should fight for 5 or 4 (or even 3).
On February 27 2011 02:55 Holgerius wrote: I don't see Hydra at #1 right now. 0-3 since the MSL win now, and that was no ZvZ BO luckbased loss.
I'll take back my previous statement that Hydra deserves #1, he couldn't keep it together anymore. I'd say #3 right now. 1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. Hydra 4. Fantasy 5. Killer 6. Hiya 7. Jaedong 8. Kal 9. Zero 10. Great To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
On February 27 2011 02:55 Holgerius wrote: I don't see Hydra at #1 right now. 0-3 since the MSL win now, and that was no ZvZ BO luckbased loss.
I'll take back my previous statement that Hydra deserves #1, he couldn't keep it together anymore. I'd say #3 right now. 1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. Hydra 4. Fantasy 5. Killer 6. Hiya 7. Jaedong 8. Kal 9. Zero 10. Great To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
I think Hydra should be #2. He has an OSL title, but his power level is not quite up to Flash's level yet. Lightwip, there's no reason to drop him all the way from #1 to #3 just because he "couldn't keep it together". If that's the reasoning then Bisu's loss to Kal should also count on that criterion.
On February 27 2011 02:55 Holgerius wrote: I don't see Hydra at #1 right now. 0-3 since the MSL win now, and that was no ZvZ BO luckbased loss.
I'll take back my previous statement that Hydra deserves #1, he couldn't keep it together anymore. I'd say #3 right now. 1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. Hydra 4. Fantasy 5. Killer 6. Hiya 7. Jaedong 8. Kal 9. Zero 10. Great To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
There was no BO disadvantage. Frozen getting a third expansion is not an inherent build order disadvantage, it's bad scouting. That's like saying Frozen had a BO disadvantage when Bisu took 4 more bases.
On February 27 2011 02:55 Holgerius wrote: I don't see Hydra at #1 right now. 0-3 since the MSL win now, and that was no ZvZ BO luckbased loss.
I'll take back my previous statement that Hydra deserves #1, he couldn't keep it together anymore. I'd say #3 right now. 1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. Hydra 4. Fantasy 5. Killer 6. Hiya 7. Jaedong 8. Kal 9. Zero 10. Great To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
Ugh, 1 Fac mines into double expand is the best economic counter to 12 Nex but even then it's not a "massive" BO disadvantage. If it was then why would Protoss ever 12 Nex, given that Terran can pretty much always do this in response? It's a good response on a lot of maps by T but to call it a massive BO disadvantage is absolutely ridiculous.
Also Bisu evened it up in the midgame but still showed minimal signs of knowing how to effectively end a game against Terran. Yes, it's very hard when T plays the way Frozen did but I guarantee Stork would have worked Frozen into the ground 10 minutes sooner. Given that Stork is probably 40/60 to win straight up against Flash I don't think it's a stretch or insult by any means to say Bisu is around 25/75.
On February 27 2011 02:55 Holgerius wrote: I don't see Hydra at #1 right now. 0-3 since the MSL win now, and that was no ZvZ BO luckbased loss.
I'll take back my previous statement that Hydra deserves #1, he couldn't keep it together anymore. I'd say #3 right now. 1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. Hydra 4. Fantasy 5. Killer 6. Hiya 7. Jaedong 8. Kal 9. Zero 10. Great To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
I think Hydra should be #2. He has an OSL title, but his power level is not quite up to Flash's level yet. Lightwip, there's no reason to drop him all the way from #1 to #3 just because he "couldn't keep it together". If that's the reasoning then Bisu's loss to Kal should also count on that criterion.
You misspelled Fantasy! I'll fix that for you (y)
I think Fantasy should be #2. He has an OSL title, but his power level is not quite up to Flash's level yet.
Anyway, I think Fantasy should be #3, right after Bisu.
To be honest, I'm hesitant to see Bisu at #2 again. This past month he went 3-3 against strong vsP players (wins: Horang2, JD, Calm; losses: Hydra, Hiya, Kal). Interestingly, all his losses were on Circuit Breaker, but having seen two of those games with my own eyes (Hydra and Kal), I don't consider the map to have played a role in those losses. Rather, Bisu was straight up out-played.
No doubt Bisu has been strong in WL this past month and no doubt he remains a top player in the world and could conceivably beat anyone (well, except maybe Stork :p) in a bo5, but I am not really happy with placing him over Fantasy or Hydra. I guess a part of it may be that there's a certain sloppiness I've felt in his game play lately that I didn't really feel a month or two ago, but maybe that's just me.
Fantasy went 6-2 this month. which on paper isn't quite Bisu's 9-3 (percentage wise the same, but over fewer games...) and I haven't seen his loss to Horang2, but his loss to Calm was... well, it was Fantasy being Fantasy, let's just say. Lately, Fantasy's standard play has been very, very strong, but he's always had a tendency to do wacky things that give him losses.
And Hydra... well, I'm very disappointed in him for his poor performance after the MSL final. I didn't catch the start of Hydra vs Sea either, but what I did see was outright rape. A couple of ZvZ losses right after establishing himself as one of the best ZvZ players in the world with his 1-2-3 knockout of top ZvZ players on his way to winning MSL could have been forgiven if he had followed up with a strong result last night. It's absurd to let a couple losses rate Hydra's ZvZ as "shaky" right after he won 3 big ZvZ bo5's in a row. I really, really wanted to see Hydra at #1. For the player to have had what amounts to the best season overall to not have been #1 on any PR -- and possibly not even top 3 -- would be kind of ridiculous. But it may well happen. Hydra hasn't delivered us the results to justify #1, but people who are saying "Hydra sucks now" have too readily forgotten his MSL result or the fact that he brought home a WL win over SKT1 with a 3-kill that included Bisu.
The reasoning for keeping Flash at #1 is a little more justified -- loathe as I am to admit that a player knocked out of SL months ago should hold #1 over both champions. In the case of Flash, he's only dropped 2 games in 2 months, with his only loss this month being to the #1 PvT player in the world. In the absence of Violet from KT's line-up, Flash has just completely taken up his teammate's weight. His only real weak performance I've seen was against Mind -- who should have won that game and would have if certain basic decisions were better made -- but considering how Flash followed up that near-miss with complete rapes of Mind's teammates for a Reverse AK... well then.
1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Hydra 4. Bisu
Here's where things really start to get interesting.
5. Stork 6. Jaedong 7. Hiya 8. Great 9. Zero 10. Kal
Justification:
Stork: Although he only went 3-3 this month, the thing I'm more interested in here is Stork's performance post-OSL finals taken as a whole. For Stork, I am quite sure that this was a landmark event. A night after getting 3-0'd by Fantasy, Stork pulled wins over Bisu and Fantasy, and then later last month he beat Flash. When I look at Stork, I see a player who lost his momentum, but none of his skill. Right now Stork can beat anyone.
JD: His play has been very strong on the whole, but right now JD isn't being an S-class monster... he's being an S-class indicator. After yet another month he has yet to pull a win over an S-class player (counting the 2-3 loss to Hydra as a net loss), and the match against Snow in WL recently was unbelievably close. So JD sits here below the players who have delivered S-class performances.
Hiya: With JD not being the wrecking ball we're used to his teammates have picked up the slack. I suppose I could just as easily have brought Killer up into the top 10, but I'd like to see more out of Killer before I say I am convinced of his skill. Hiya's TvT has been his weak point lately, yet he's maintained a 7-3 record despite playing TvT 5 times this month, with all 3 losses in that match-up. His TvP is looking very convincing (this month alone pulling wins over Bisu, M18M, and Tyson) and lately his TvZ been every bit as strong. It's important to note two things: 1. in order for Hiya to climb higher he needs to either dodge Terrans or improve in TvT, and 2. unlike Light who is much higher in ELO but is kept off PR for his lack of TvP, Hiya had a strong TvT less than a year ago, so I'm not holding it against him to the same degree.
Great: Making it to the MSL finals should in and of itself be enough for a PR position, but let's consider Great's actual qualities. I'm pretty convinced lately that Great has been an overlooked player with more talent than most people have realized. Rumors that January took him under his wing for his looks are absurd. Last month Great climbed over Kal in his worst match-up to make it to the MSL semifinals. Since then he has mostly played ZvZ, and while his results have been 50-50, his Hive play has been the talk of the town. In the past I've regarded Great as a somewhat robotic player. Look at his game against Midas last month for an example: stellar mechanics, but he kept trying to break Midas's mech with ling/lurk/defiler armies. His ZvZ shows that he is not such a one-dimensional player. Underrated? Yes.
Zero: Right now Zero is one of the hardest players to rate. For yet another month he continues his I-can-win-or-lose-vs-anyone tendency, but this month he does so against a less impressive line-up. Points for making to to the MSL semifinal, but unless he can gain some consistency I don't see him ever penetrating the top 5.
Kal: I'm hesitant to place Kal any higher. After an inconsistent December and an abysmal January, Kal seems to be getting his game back. But it's too soon to be sure: other than Bisu, who has Kal faced recently that you might characterize as a strong vs P player?
CBNC:
Snow: For Snow, whether we place him on PR or not really depends on exactly what time period we consider. Like with Stork, the real landmark in Snow's recent history was his series against JD. Since that series, Snow has gone 5-3 and been pretty impressive on the whole. I'd particularly invite people to watch his recent game against JD which I was almost sure Snow would win. Truly impeccable harassment, but his main army control was just a tad too sloppy and JD was able to keep Snow from reaching the kind of mass he needed. In February, Snow has only been 2-2. I don't like sticking too rigidly to "consider this month only" rankings since they are not always representative of what's going on, but this month I think there's a lot of competition for a PR spot, so Snow sits here instead of up there.
Mind: Almost managing an AK over KT alone is worthy of respect. 5-3 in February, and this season, Mind also made his return to SL. I think people may want to keep their eyes on Rommel. I could easily see him making the bo5 stages next season if he keeps up his current level of play.
Killer: Despite going 6-2 last month and being 8-2 in his last 10 games, I'm not ready to put Killer over anyone currently on the PR. Do remember that just two months ago Killer was on the worst loss streak of his career... a career of being a PL punching bag. But if he can keep this up? Then I might reconsider. At the end of the day, results are what matters most and Killer is currently delivering them.
Light: It's been nearly 3 months since you've dropped a game to a Zerg and in that time you've only dropped 3 games to fellow Terrans. Unfortunately, you've only secured 2 wins over Protoss during that time period. Light, I think you need to sit down with Tyson and play him over and over and over and over and over and over again until you finally learn what TvP is all about. In particular, your midgame timing sense is crap.
Sea: More recently you are starting to look strong again. But still inconsistent.
Sup?
Ggaemo: Mostly losses this month keep you away from PR or CBNC, but somehow it has happened that I think of the Minesweeper Zerg as a strong player. How did this happen?
On February 27 2011 05:11 Holgerius wrote: If Flash plays and goes 0-1 vs ACE today, could he lose the #1 spot? Right now most people seem to agree that's where he belongs at the moment.
On February 27 2011 05:11 Holgerius wrote: If Flash plays and goes 0-1 vs ACE today, could he lose the #1 spot? Right now most people seem to agree that's where he belongs at the moment.
I'd think so.
I don't. Not unless Bisu or Fantasy pulls a dominating rape over Khan, or Hydra does likewise over Woongjin on 2/28.
On February 27 2011 05:11 Holgerius wrote: If Flash plays and goes 0-1 vs ACE today, could he lose the #1 spot? Right now most people seem to agree that's where he belongs at the moment.
I'd think so.
I actually disagree, he'd have to play really badly to be dropped.
On February 27 2011 02:55 Holgerius wrote: I don't see Hydra at #1 right now. 0-3 since the MSL win now, and that was no ZvZ BO luckbased loss.
I'll take back my previous statement that Hydra deserves #1, he couldn't keep it together anymore. I'd say #3 right now. 1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. Hydra 4. Fantasy 5. Killer 6. Hiya 7. Jaedong 8. Kal 9. Zero 10. Great To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
Ugh, 1 Fac mines into double expand is the best economic counter to 12 Nex but even then it's not a "massive" BO disadvantage. If it was then why would Protoss ever 12 Nex, given that Terran can pretty much always do this in response? It's a good response on a lot of maps by T but to call it a massive BO disadvantage is absolutely ridiculous.
Also Bisu evened it up in the midgame but still showed minimal signs of knowing how to effectively end a game against Terran. Yes, it's very hard when T plays the way Frozen did but I guarantee Stork would have worked Frozen into the ground 10 minutes sooner. Given that Stork is probably 40/60 to win straight up against Flash I don't think it's a stretch or insult by any means to say Bisu is around 25/75.
You know, people said the same thing about Jaedong being able to defeat Flash if he played like he did vs Effort in the OSL game 2. Of course that didn't happen. You really have to give a player credit for winning, even if it looks like a sloppy game. I honestly think Bisu has a 40% or so chance to beat Flash.
On February 27 2011 03:16 Lightwip wrote: To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
Bisu was not at a massive disadvantage, I would even go as far as saying the game was pretty even, maybe a small advantage for Frozean. Also I don`t really think he had any questionable attacks. All his early attacks, while maybe not effective in pure resource vs resource still managed to keep Frozeans tank count low for large parts of the game. The only bad attack he had was when he engaged frozean at the high ground outside the 6 natural, but that was more being forced to attack in horrible terrain than a bad attack (I mean he ended up breaking the push). The thing that worried me is that he still seem to have troubles finishing games in PvT, at least he was recalling this game.
I had a small concern with Bisu's seeming inability to keep his army together properly in his game against Frozean. For a "normal" Protoss player I wouldn't really think about it, but consider that Bisu is arguably the #1 Protoss in the world it's worth thinking about. Too many times I saw stray units getting picked off from mines or tanks when Bisu was not engaging Frozean in a battle and when he was moving his army around the map his zealots were often way out front and in battle when he would use his dragoons to clear away some mines, they would then end up blocking his zealots a little more than I'd like to see. Also, his spell use could have been a bit better.
These things were not really "major" issues or anything, but its issues like these that separate Flash from the rest of the field.
On February 27 2011 05:11 Holgerius wrote: If Flash plays and goes 0-1 vs ACE today, could he lose the #1 spot? Right now most people seem to agree that's where he belongs at the moment.
I'd think so.
I don't. Not unless Bisu or Fantasy pulls a dominating rape over Khan, or Hydra does likewise over Woongjin on 2/28.
Hey, it's ACE we are talking about. If Flash doesn't even defeat one players of the team that's been all-killed the most, everything we've said about Hydra and Bisu we could say about Flash.
I don't think Flash is going to play against ACE unless he wants to or KT decides to send Reach/Yellow as filler. I can't see ACE getting through Stats/Action (yeah ... Action ... crazy isn't it) if they are sent out before Flash is.
It all depends on if KT wants to use this game to give Barracks/Perfective/Reach/Yellow a chance to play and assume (arrogantly or correctly depending on how you want to look at it) that Flash can't lose.
On February 27 2011 05:11 Holgerius wrote: If Flash plays and goes 0-1 vs ACE today, could he lose the #1 spot? Right now most people seem to agree that's where he belongs at the moment.
I'd think so.
I don't. Not unless Bisu or Fantasy pulls a dominating rape over Khan, or Hydra does likewise over Woongjin on 2/28.
Hey, it's ACE we are talking about. If Flash doesn't even defeat one players of the team that's been all-killed the most, everything we've said about Hydra and Bisu we could say about Flash.
Not true at all. The reasons why Hydra and Bisu aren't up for the #1 spot are not limited to Flash having a better record. A couple bad games can usually be forgiven.
And losing to ACE does not mean you suck or that you played like suck. Have you actually watched them play? Just because the players went to ACE does not mean they stopped being progamers.
On February 27 2011 05:21 Mortality wrote: To be honest, I'm hesitant to see Bisu at #2 again. This past month he went 3-3 against strong vsP players (wins: Horang2, JD, Calm; losses: Hydra, Hiya, Kal). Interestingly, all his losses were on Circuit Breaker, but having seen two of those games with my own eyes (Hydra and Kal), I don't consider the map to have played a role in those losses. Rather, Bisu was straight up out-played.
No doubt Bisu has been strong in WL this past month and no doubt he remains a top player in the world and could conceivably beat anyone (well, except maybe Stork :p) in a bo5, but I am not really happy with placing him over Fantasy or Hydra. I guess a part of it may be that there's a certain sloppiness I've felt in his game play lately that I didn't really feel a month or two ago, but maybe that's just me.
Fantasy went 6-2 this month. which on paper isn't quite Bisu's 9-3 (percentage wise the same, but over fewer games...) and I haven't seen his loss to Horang2, but his loss to Calm was... well, it was Fantasy being Fantasy, let's just say. Lately, Fantasy's standard play has been very, very strong, but he's always had a tendency to do wacky things that give him losses.
And Hydra... well, I'm very disappointed in him for his poor performance after the MSL final. I didn't catch the start of Hydra vs Sea either, but what I did see was outright rape. A couple of ZvZ losses right after establishing himself as one of the best ZvZ players in the world with his 1-2-3 knockout of top ZvZ players on his way to winning MSL could have been forgiven if he had followed up with a strong result last night. It's absurd to let a couple losses rate Hydra's ZvZ as "shaky" right after he won 3 big ZvZ bo5's in a row. I really, really wanted to see Hydra at #1. For the player to have had what amounts to the best season overall to not have been #1 on any PR -- and possibly not even top 3 -- would be kind of ridiculous. But it may well happen. Hydra hasn't delivered us the results to justify #1, but people who are saying "Hydra sucks now" have too readily forgotten his MSL result or the fact that he brought home a WL win over SKT1 with a 3-kill that included Bisu.
The reasoning for keeping Flash at #1 is a little more justified -- loathe as I am to admit that a player knocked out of SL months ago should hold #1 over both champions. In the case of Flash, he's only dropped 2 games in 2 months, with his only loss this month being to the #1 PvT player in the world. In the absence of Violet from KT's line-up, Flash has just completely taken up his teammate's weight. His only real weak performance I've seen was against Mind -- who should have won that game and would have if certain basic decisions were better made -- but considering how Flash followed up that near-miss with complete rapes of Mind's teammates for a Reverse AK... well then.
1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Hydra 4. Bisu
Here's where things really start to get interesting.
5. Stork 6. Jaedong 7. Hiya 8. Great 9. Zero 10. Kal
Justification:
Stork: Although he only went 3-3 this month, the thing I'm more interested in here is Stork's performance post-OSL finals taken as a whole. For Stork, I am quite sure that this was a landmark event. A night after getting 3-0'd by Fantasy, Stork pulled wins over Bisu and Fantasy, and then later last month he beat Flash. When I look at Stork, I see a player who lost his momentum, but none of his skill. Right now Stork can beat anyone.
JD: His play has been very strong on the whole, but right now JD isn't being an S-class monster... he's being an S-class indicator. After yet another month he has yet to pull a win over an S-class player (counting the 2-3 loss to Hydra as a net loss), and the match against Snow in WL recently was unbelievably close. So JD sits here below the players who have delivered S-class performances.
Hiya: With JD not being the wrecking ball we're used to his teammates have picked up the slack. I suppose I could just as easily have brought Killer up into the top 10, but I'd like to see more out of Killer before I say I am convinced of his skill. Hiya's TvT has been his weak point lately, yet he's maintained a 7-3 record despite playing TvT 5 times this month, with all 3 losses in that match-up. His TvP is looking very convincing (this month alone pulling wins over Bisu, M18M, and Tyson) and lately his TvZ been every bit as strong. It's important to note two things: 1. in order for Hiya to climb higher he needs to either dodge Terrans or improve in TvT, and 2. unlike Light who is much higher in ELO but is kept off PR for his lack of TvP, Hiya had a strong TvT less than a year ago, so I'm not holding it against him to the same degree.
Great: Making it to the MSL finals should in and of itself be enough for a PR position, but let's consider Great's actual qualities. I'm pretty convinced lately that Great has been an overlooked player with more talent than most people have realized. Rumors that January took him under his wing for his looks are absurd. Last month Great climbed over Kal in his worst match-up to make it to the MSL semifinals. Since then he has mostly played ZvZ, and while his results have been 50-50, his Hive play has been the talk of the town. In the past I've regarded Great as a somewhat robotic player. Look at his game against Midas last month for an example: stellar mechanics, but he kept trying to break Midas's mech with ling/lurk/defiler armies. His ZvZ shows that he is not such a one-dimensional player. Underrated? Yes.
Zero: Right now Zero is one of the hardest players to rate. For yet another month he continues his I-can-win-or-lose-vs-anyone tendency, but this month he does so against a less impressive line-up. Points for making to to the MSL semifinal, but unless he can gain some consistency I don't see him ever penetrating the top 5.
Kal: I'm hesitant to place Kal any higher. After an inconsistent December and an abysmal January, Kal seems to be getting his game back. But it's too soon to be sure: other than Bisu, who has Kal faced recently that you might characterize as a strong vs P player?
CBNC:
Snow: For Snow, whether we place him on PR or not really depends on exactly what time period we consider. Like with Stork, the real landmark in Snow's recent history was his series against JD. Since that series, Snow has gone 5-3 and been pretty impressive on the whole. I'd particularly invite people to watch his recent game against JD which I was almost sure Snow would win. Truly impeccable harassment, but his main army control was just a tad too sloppy and JD was able to keep Snow from reaching the kind of mass he needed. In February, Snow has only been 2-2. I don't like sticking too rigidly to "consider this month only" rankings since they are not always representative of what's going on, but this month I think there's a lot of competition for a PR spot, so Snow sits here instead of up there.
Mind: Almost managing an AK over KT alone is worthy of respect. 5-3 in February, and this season, Mind also made his return to SL. I think people may want to keep their eyes on Rommel. I could easily see him making the bo5 stages next season if he keeps up his current level of play.
Killer: Despite going 6-2 last month and being 8-2 in his last 10 games, I'm not ready to put Killer over anyone currently on the PR. Do remember that just two months ago Killer was on the worst loss streak of his career... a career of being a PL punching bag. But if he can keep this up? Then I might reconsider. At the end of the day, results are what matters most and Killer is currently delivering them.
Light: It's been nearly 3 months since you've dropped a game to a Zerg and in that time you've only dropped 3 games to fellow Terrans. Unfortunately, you've only secured 2 wins over Protoss during that time period. Light, I think you need to sit down with Tyson and play him over and over and over and over and over and over again until you finally learn what TvP is all about. In particular, your midgame timing sense is crap.
Sea: More recently you are starting to look strong again. But still inconsistent.
Sup?
Ggaemo: Mostly losses this month keep you away from PR or CBNC, but somehow it has happened that I think of the Minesweeper Zerg as a strong player. How did this happen?
On February 27 2011 05:53 Lightwip wrote: I honestly think Bisu has a 40% or so chance to beat Flash.
Given your bias for Bisu and pretty well stated understanding of PvT, it's safe to say you put that a little high. I'd give Bisu a 40% chance of beating Fantasy. I'd give him a 20% chance of beating Flash (IE: He'd take 1 game off of him in a Bo5, as opposed to it going 3-2 in your premise). This is also map dependant, though.
Bisu is a funny case: BvZ might be the most dominant matchup among pro gamers right now, but he was looked shaky in PvT even when winning. He'd have no chance in a Bo5 against flash, IMO.
I'm a huge Flash fan, but it's silly to say that somebody like Bisu wouldn't have a chance. Everybody has a chance versus everybody; crazy upsets versus nobodies happen all the itme, and Bisu is one of the best ever, so you'd wager he has a lot better chance than almost anybody else. His PvT hasn't looked great as of late, but it can be excellent.
Maybe it wouldn't be a great chance, but it would be significant. I think 40% in a single game is a little optimistic, but still fairly reasonable.
On February 27 2011 09:15 SimonB wrote: I'm a huge Flash fan, but it's silly to say that somebody like Bisu wouldn't have a chance. Everybody has a chance versus everybody; crazy upsets versus nobodies happen all the itme, and Bisu is one of the best ever, so you'd wager he has a lot better chance than almost anybody else. His PvT hasn't looked great as of late, but it can be excellent.
Maybe it wouldn't be a great chance, but it would be significant. I think 40% in a single game is a little optimistic, but still fairly reasonable.
It's reasonable to state, but it's not the most accurate measure of their relative skill gap. Let's say that the range of percentage is 20-40%, then 30% is the best answer; if 40% is "a little optimistic", then while it is reasonable, it is not the best answer and hence should be disregarded.
Just watched Hydra vs. Bisu. I would say that Hydra has figured out Bisu's PvZ +1 2gate push, and I expect more Zergs to follow suit. It should be reflected in Bisu's Power Ranking until he can come up with another good build.
EDIT: Hydra cold countered Bisu in that game. He didn't lose anything important to Bisu's zealots, figured out how to keep up with the multitask, and ended up figuring out how to capitalize upon the timing window offered by Bisu's most obvious transition (catching his HTs at the nat rally point) very smoothly.
On February 27 2011 05:53 Lightwip wrote: I honestly think Bisu has a 40% or so chance to beat Flash.
Given your bias for Bisu and pretty well stated understanding of PvT, it's safe to say you put that a little high. I'd give Bisu a 40% chance of beating Fantasy. I'd give him a 20% chance of beating Flash (IE: He'd take 1 game off of him in a Bo5, as opposed to it going 3-2 in your premise). This is also map dependant, though.
You're quite biased too. Bisu has a better PvT than you give him credit for(only 2 vT losses this season against fairly strong T players). He almost beat Flash in their last game on a fairly T-favored map, so I don't doubt that Bisu would do better than that in a series he is prepared for. Also, I heard Fantasy doesn't do so well TvP in practice. I'd give Bisu a higher chance than 40%.
On February 27 2011 05:11 Holgerius wrote: If Flash plays and goes 0-1 vs ACE today, could he lose the #1 spot? Right now most people seem to agree that's where he belongs at the moment.
I'd think so.
I don't. Not unless Bisu or Fantasy pulls a dominating rape over Khan, or Hydra does likewise over Woongjin on 2/28.
Hey, it's ACE we are talking about. If Flash doesn't even defeat one players of the team that's been all-killed the most, everything we've said about Hydra and Bisu we could say about Flash.
Not true at all. The reasons why Hydra and Bisu aren't up for the #1 spot are not limited to Flash having a better record. A couple bad games can usually be forgiven.
And losing to ACE does not mean you suck or that you played like suck. Have you actually watched them play? Just because the players went to ACE does not mean they stopped being progamers.
I have watched SPL dude, just relax... peace and love brother...
Anyway, let's say Flash loses to ggaemo. What will Bisu fanboys say? That's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that if Flash loses he will stop being the best progamer there is (which I believe). I'm saying that if he loses, people will start talking and could start questioning his superiority again. Read my post in page 22 if you are curious.
On February 27 2011 05:11 Holgerius wrote: If Flash plays and goes 0-1 vs ACE today, could he lose the #1 spot? Right now most people seem to agree that's where he belongs at the moment.
I'd think so.
I don't. Not unless Bisu or Fantasy pulls a dominating rape over Khan, or Hydra does likewise over Woongjin on 2/28.
Hey, it's ACE we are talking about. If Flash doesn't even defeat one players of the team that's been all-killed the most, everything we've said about Hydra and Bisu we could say about Flash.
Not true at all. The reasons why Hydra and Bisu aren't up for the #1 spot are not limited to Flash having a better record. A couple bad games can usually be forgiven.
And losing to ACE does not mean you suck or that you played like suck. Have you actually watched them play? Just because the players went to ACE does not mean they stopped being progamers.
I have watched SPL dude, just relax... peace and love brother...
Anyway, let's say Flash loses to ggaemo. What will Bisu fanboys say? That's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that if Flash loses he will stop being the best progamer there is (which I believe). I'm saying that if he loses, people will start talking and could start questioning his superiority again. Read my post in page 22 if you are curious.
Then, re-interpreting your first comment with what you just said, I'd say that you're taking flamewheel (and for that matter, any PR writer) lightly. He's not going to let himself get that easily influenced by fanboy commentary. He's writing the PR, not the fanboys.
On February 27 2011 05:11 Holgerius wrote: If Flash plays and goes 0-1 vs ACE today, could he lose the #1 spot? Right now most people seem to agree that's where he belongs at the moment.
I'd think so.
I don't. Not unless Bisu or Fantasy pulls a dominating rape over Khan, or Hydra does likewise over Woongjin on 2/28.
Hey, it's ACE we are talking about. If Flash doesn't even defeat one players of the team that's been all-killed the most, everything we've said about Hydra and Bisu we could say about Flash.
Not true at all. The reasons why Hydra and Bisu aren't up for the #1 spot are not limited to Flash having a better record. A couple bad games can usually be forgiven.
And losing to ACE does not mean you suck or that you played like suck. Have you actually watched them play? Just because the players went to ACE does not mean they stopped being progamers.
I have watched SPL dude, just relax... peace and love brother...
Anyway, let's say Flash loses to ggaemo. What will Bisu fanboys say? That's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that if Flash loses he will stop being the best progamer there is (which I believe). I'm saying that if he loses, people will start talking and could start questioning his superiority again. Read my post in page 22 if you are curious.
Then, re-interpreting your first comment with what you just said, I'd say that you're taking flamewheel (and for that matter, any PR writer) lightly. He's not going to let himself get that easily influenced by fanboy commentary. He's writing the PR, not the fanboys.
I didn't say anything about flamewheel ether. It's not like I have to explain this to you, you seem to have had a long day and you clearly want to argue someone. But anyway,.. please read the entire first comment (the one Holgerius wrote). Now, think of me as a hot chick on a bikini smiling to you.
On February 27 2011 13:47 Mortality wrote: I think I've just been trolled.
Badly, lol.
Action and Barracks performing quite well. Perhaps the former deserves a mention in CNBC at least? 6-1 right now and all his wins have been really clean too.
On February 27 2011 13:47 Mortality wrote: I think I've just been trolled.
Badly, lol.
Action and Barracks performing quite well. Perhaps the former deserves a mention in CNBC at least? 6-1 right now and all his wins have been really clean too.
CBNC maybe, but I really haven't seen any games from Action that impressed me.
On February 27 2011 05:05 darktreb wrote:Also Bisu evened it up in the midgame but still showed minimal signs of knowing how to effectively end a game against Terran. Yes, it's very hard when T plays the way Frozen did but I guarantee Stork would have worked Frozen into the ground 10 minutes sooner. Given that Stork is probably 40/60 to win straight up against Flash I don't think it's a stretch or insult by any means to say Bisu is around 25/75.
As a Bisu fanboy I will say that I'm fine with calling it a 25/75 chance of him beating Flash. Though I'd probably try to slide it more towards 30/60.
That's the thing I hate about the internet. IRL you can look at someone's face and know what they are thinking. Online they might be 8 ft tall with tusks and a Jamaican accent.
Action's wins have looked impressive. His loss? ...
Hiya is... wow. That was wow. In terms of momentum... should he be above Jaedong? (And Stork?)
On February 27 2011 17:30 Mortality wrote: That's the thing I hate about the internet. IRL you can look at someone's face and know what they are thinking. Online they might be 8 ft tall with tusks and a Jamaican accent.
Action's wins have looked impressive. His loss? ...
Hiya is... wow. That was wow. In terms of momentum... should he be above Jaedong? (And Stork?)
Actually, I think I still like version 1 better. Or maybe Stork and Hiya can be switched in the version 1. But then Stork feels too low. Damn it.
I think the best version is the version where there's Killer in the top 7 . You mention Hiya but no Killer, especially when he has defeated Sea with dong-esque defiler control, and the newly-crowned MSL champion Hydra.
On February 27 2011 17:30 Mortality wrote: That's the thing I hate about the internet. IRL you can look at someone's face and know what they are thinking. Online they might be 8 ft tall with tusks and a Jamaican accent.
Action's wins have looked impressive. His loss? ...
Hiya is... wow. That was wow. In terms of momentum... should he be above Jaedong? (And Stork?)
Actually, I think I still like version 1 better. Or maybe Stork and Hiya can be switched in the version 1. But then Stork feels too low. Damn it.
I think the best version is the version where there's Killer in the top 7 . You mention Hiya but no Killer, especially when he has defeated Sea with dong-esque defiler control, and the newly-crowned MSL champion Hydra.
Killer only just started to prove himself, I'd give it more time before I'd give him a middle place in PR. Though he does deserve #9 or so.
Harem, as usual, wants me to put Killer at #1. And, as usual, I shall not do so. However, he might deserve a low rank. Wow, this post used a lot of commas.
On February 27 2011 20:06 flamewheel wrote: Harem, as usual, wants me to put Killer at #1. And, as usual, I shall not do so. However, he might deserve a low rank. Wow, this post used a lot of commas.
On February 27 2011 17:30 Mortality wrote: That's the thing I hate about the internet. IRL you can look at someone's face and know what they are thinking. Online they might be 8 ft tall with tusks and a Jamaican accent.
Action's wins have looked impressive. His loss? ...
Hiya is... wow. That was wow. In terms of momentum... should he be above Jaedong? (And Stork?)
Actually, I think I still like version 1 better. Or maybe Stork and Hiya can be switched in the version 1. But then Stork feels too low. Damn it.
I think the best version is the version where there's Killer in the top 7 . You mention Hiya but no Killer, especially when he has defeated Sea with dong-esque defiler control, and the newly-crowned MSL champion Hydra.
On February 27 2011 20:06 flamewheel wrote: Harem, as usual, wants me to put Killer at #1. And, as usual, I shall not do so. However, he might deserve a low rank. Wow, this post used a lot of commas.
On February 27 2011 13:47 Mortality wrote: I think I've just been trolled.
Badly, lol.
Action and Barracks performing quite well. Perhaps the former deserves a mention in CNBC at least? 6-1 right now and all his wins have been really clean too.
CBNC maybe, but I really haven't seen any games from Action that impressed me.
On February 27 2011 13:47 Mortality wrote: I think I've just been trolled.
Badly, lol.
Action and Barracks performing quite well. Perhaps the former deserves a mention in CNBC at least? 6-1 right now and all his wins have been really clean too.
CBNC maybe, but I really haven't seen any games from Action that impressed me.
You say that I have no idea how annoying Bisu fans are, but I say you have no idea how hypocritical you are. That game was a while ago, I meant in the last month.
I agree that I'm not really ready to give Action a PR spot over anyone I listed earlier, but possibly a CBNC... this month he's finally started living up to his "lamb to lion" hype. Interestingly, so has Snow, and Baby has started looking stronger again as well. Kind of funny that all 3 "lambs to lions" seem to perform at the same time.
It's a conspiracy the likes of which we haven't seen since Ronald Reagan sank the Titanic.
On February 27 2011 13:47 Mortality wrote: I think I've just been trolled.
Badly, lol.
Action and Barracks performing quite well. Perhaps the former deserves a mention in CNBC at least? 6-1 right now and all his wins have been really clean too.
CBNC maybe, but I really haven't seen any games from Action that impressed me.
You say that I have no idea how annoying Bisu fans are, but I say you have no idea how hypocritical you are. That game was a while ago, I meant in the last month.
It was a joke, mate. It's just easy to point out that Action has played good games and he's played very well this month, too.
On February 28 2011 11:55 Mortality wrote: It wasn't that long ago...
I agree that I'm not really ready to give Action a PR spot over anyone I listed earlier, but possibly a CBNC... this month he's finally started living up to his "lamb to lion" hype. Interestingly, so has Snow, and Baby has started looking stronger again as well. Kind of funny that all 3 "lambs to lions" seem to perform at the same time.
It's a conspiracy the likes of which we haven't seen since Ronald Reagan sank the Titanic.
Meh, I wouldn't say that I'm convinced that the three are doing better. Action won 6 games that I really wasn't too impressed by. Snow definitely improved from playing JD, but I'd have to see more. Baby, he hasn't shown much honestly. That game may not have been THAT long ago, but Action dropped off in performance since.
On February 28 2011 20:53 mnesthes wrote: this is gonna be hydra flash stork bisu fantasy jaedong
Stork hasn't really done that much. He's honestly done almost nothing outside of 1 win against Bisu and Flash each, and he couldn't even carry the win agianst Flash into a win for his team. Stork belongs right above Jaedong, maybe above Fantasy if you want to punish Fantasy for today's game.
On February 28 2011 20:53 mnesthes wrote: this is gonna be hydra flash stork bisu fantasy jaedong
Stork hasn't really done that much. He's honestly done almost nothing outside of 1 win against Bisu and Flash each, and he couldn't even carry the win agianst Flash into a win for his team. Stork belongs right above Jaedong, maybe above Fantasy if you want to punish Fantasy for today's game.
Lightwip, every time someone puts someone between Bisu and Flash, you have to argue against it. Bisu couldn't + Show Spoiler +
Flash played quite a few games, and only against mid-level players (and Stork, which he lost though he admitted that he felt something sneaky is coming in the interviews).
Bisu... well, does not fully deserve #1 as well, but his losses were only against kickass players ATM.
After thinking it through though... maybe it's Hydra, who should be #1?
Realistically speaking, flamewheel will probably go with something like this: + Show Spoiler +
On February 28 2011 22:49 Holgerius wrote: In my mind Flash and Hydra are #1 and #2. After that I'd put Stork, Fantasy and Bisu, but I'm not sure in which order. Then Jaedong and some fillers.
I'd rather put fantasy on the 'fillers' ..
Being 2nd in the MSL still counts for something around here on P.R. right??
On February 28 2011 22:49 Holgerius wrote: In my mind Flash and Hydra are #1 and #2. After that I'd put Stork, Fantasy and Bisu, but I'm not sure in which order. Then Jaedong and some fillers.
I'd rather put fantasy on the 'fillers' ..
Being 2nd in the MSL still counts for something around here on P.R. right??
Fantasy actually WON a Starleague by convincingly 3-0'ing a top, top player (who was playing his best match-up, on favourable maps) in the final just a month ago, and during this month he's actually been pretty damn decent in WL, getting an all-kill and all (still kind of unreliable though).
Great on the other hand is 2-6 in WL overall and isn't even top 20 in ELO. Getting to a Starleague final (and losing pretty badly in it) is nice and all, but that alone is not enough to give him a position amongst those players. Players like Kwanro have reached a final for fuck's sake. The only thing Great has going for him this month is that he took down the master of inconsistency, the anti-master of ZvZ, in a Bo5. Forgive me for not being all that impressed.
I fucking love Great though. ^__^ Most awesome (not best, mind you) ZvZ in the whole BW scene!
As much as I love Bisu, I don't see him being higher than number 3; He couldn't carry his team to victory against either Samsung Khan or STX Soul, and missed the all-kill against Hwaesueng Oz. Ace matches are important, especially if you're the supposed Ace of your team.
Flash probably for #1 (though a flimsy #1 due to lack of games), Hydra #2, no doubt in my mind.
Interesting note, but it seems the most recent all-kills by Fantasy and Movie are pretty trivial; the teams they played against were weak and in the case of Fantasy, he's too inconsistent, and in Movie's case, he hasn't beaten anyone top tier (except Sea, but I didn't watch the game so I can't judge the quality of game play).
Hm, 1. Flash - 1 RAK, a few other wins, no real sign of faltering though. 2. Hydra - MSL winner and decent PL 3. Bisu - Consistently been an asset to his team, shame no one else can freaking win. 4. Fantasy - Would be higher, but the games vs Calm and Reality were.... ugh. 5. Stork - Some nice moments, overall needs more though. 6. Jaedong - Still doing fine, but he's not making things work like he used to. 7. Hiya - He's actually racking up quite a few kills for Oz. Maybe switch with Jaedong, actually. 8. Killer - Doing alright. 9. Kal - Had some pretty alright wins, could use a little more though. 10. Action - Broke his shit streak and raked up 6 kills.
No he isn't. JD had an abysmal month, and got outshined by many A-teamers. He definitely has the skills it takes to score wins (as we all know), but he failed to show it.
I know JD is going to be placed somewhere, but he isn't even the strongest player in his team for SWL (read: performance-wise), and its not for lack of opportunities to play (like Flash).
Overall in SWL so far: JD was sent out 9 times, going 11-5. Killer was sent out 8 times, going 11-5. HiyA was sent out 7 times, going 14-6.
In fact, up until their last game (vs WeMade) Killer and Hiya were both at 11-5 and JD was 3rd at 10-5.
As for the past month, Killer went 6-2 (win over Hydra), HiyA went 10-4 (AK vs ACE, win over Bisu, 3-kill WeMade), and JD went 4-3. Don't know why JD would place over HiyA/Killer this month.
Your list is also missing Movie, who is 8-2 this month, with an AK vs MBC and 3-kill vs ACE.
As for placing Action in 10, he is 6-1 in February, so I think not.
Remember that PR isn't just a results ranking. 4-3 isn't so bad when you consider that two of those losses came at the hands of Light and Bisu. JD's record might not be so sharp, but his play is still really, really good and if you watch his games it shows.
Likewise, I'd rather see Great and Zero get spots than Killer, Movie, or Action. All three of them have strong records in February and all three of them have shown flashes of brilliance, but all 3 of them were playing atrociously bad 1-2 months ago.
As much as I am against a ranking that dismisses records and accomplishments, I am also against a ranking that only considers them.
Putting Hiya over JD? Maybe. But not just because of his record -- his play has been phenomenally strong. His 3-kill over WeMade was complete rape. Even in his loss to Roro it really came down to Roro managing to exploit a very narrow timing window. Even just 4-5 seconds might have been enough for Hiya to get his defenses in time to defend.
EPT
great
Sea
Tyson, 
. Everything is edible, and more importantly it is all explained well. Already can't wait for the next one. 
.
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