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On February 28 2012 15:41 Rainling wrote:
This was clearly not respectful to Dragon or his fans, but my point is it was an honest mistake. He never intended to imply that anything that he was saying was actually true.
See, here is where I think a lot of us would disagree. He firsts mentions stream watching during the attack while he's casting and doesn't really elaborate or explain the 'trolling'. He says something along the lines of "oh, Dragon must have seen the roaches on the stream", then just continues on with cast. Because he just put that out there so nonchalantly, it seems like he really does believe that Dragon is in fact a cheater. He then goes on to say something similar to "so, he just 'starts lagging' right then? You know what also makes you lag? Just saying, just saying, I'm not accusing, just saying x3" or something. This doesn't seem like an "honest mistake" but instead someone who really believes that Dragon is cheating. Katu even said himself "he cannot lift that barracks because the lings will run in", then proceeds to use the fact he didn't lift to support the cheating. Well no duh he didn't lift, lings would run in, as Katu noticed. It just doesn't add up as an honest mistake. Heck, Katu never claims it was a mistake, he just claims to be trolling. He is never sorry until it looks like people are really upset, and even then, I don't think he apologizes.
Either way, it's not professional in the slightest. There are other big name players out there who have cheated in the past, yet this is not mentioned by any casters (and it shouldn't be) and for Katu to call Dragon a cheater with absolutely zero evidence.
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On February 28 2012 15:35 Grantiere wrote:
Not clearly enough, apparently, so stop underreacting. Would you prefer that he not get called out on it?
I would prefer that people stop calling for him to be fired or heavily punished for making this mistake. I think people are overreacting, and that people actually believe that what he was saying was intended to be accusatory in some way, which is not true.
If you watch Playhem regularly, you'll notice that several different casters also often do this sort of over-the-top trolling in matches. The responses in this thread are, in my opinion, more reactionary than rational, and lack perspective in terms of the casting environment of Playhem as a whole. It's more difficult to understand that all of this trolling is not ill-intentioned in any way if you are not familiar with Playhem.
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On February 28 2012 15:50 Molybdenum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 15:41 Rainling wrote:
This was clearly not respectful to Dragon or his fans, but my point is it was an honest mistake. He never intended to imply that anything that he was saying was actually true. See, here is where I think a lot of us would disagree. He firsts mentions stream watching during the attack while he's casting and doesn't really elaborate or explain the 'trolling'. He says something along the lines of "oh, Dragon must have seen the roaches on the stream", then just continues on with cast. Because he just put that out there so nonchalantly, it seems like he really does believe that Dragon is in fact a cheater. He then goes on to say something similar to "so, he just 'starts lagging' right then? You know what also makes you lag? Just saying, just saying, I'm not accusing, just saying x3" or something. This doesn't seem like an "honest mistake" but instead someone who really believes that Dragon is cheating. Katu even said himself "he cannot lift that barracks because the lings will run in", then proceeds to use the fact he didn't lift to support the cheating. Well no duh he didn't lift, lings would run in, as Katu noticed. It just doesn't add up as an honest mistake. Heck, Katu never claims it was a mistake, he just claims to be trolling. He is never sorry until it looks like people are really upset, and even then, I don't think he apologizes. Either way, it's not professional in the slightest. There are other big name players out there who have cheated in the past, yet this is not mentioned by any casters (and it shouldn't be) and for Katu to call Dragon a cheater with absolutely zero evidence.
I don't think you understand, he legitimately was not implying that dragon was a cheater. Katu was just tired after a long day of casting and made some stupid, tasteless jokes about Dragon. He clarified later that he did not actually intend to accuse Dragon of stream cheating, but was "trolling." I agree it's not at all professional, but I think it's just an honest mistake on his part that should be forgiven.
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Katu deserves all the hatred that's coming at him right now. Watch the vid - the guy is a complete douchebag while insulting Dragon and the fans.
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On February 28 2012 15:41 Rainling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 15:32 nilotto wrote:
stop calling what katu did "trolling", he was beeing straight up ignorant and BM. not what u expect of a caster of any sort. the community should all embrace the idea of spreading esports out to the people, and therefore demand people representing this lovely scene in a proper professional way. in no other scene would this behavior be suitable and the sc2 community should not defend this behavior as "trolling" According to Wikipedia: "In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion." What he was doing was the definition of trolling. It was intended to provoke an emotional response from the chat. AKA feigning ignorance for the purpose of being bad mannered. Basically, he made mistakes in terms of the quantity and manner of his trolling. This was clearly not respectful to Dragon or his fans, but my point is it was an honest mistake. He never intended to imply that anything that he was saying was actually true.
Whether or not you call it trolling is irrelevant. Regardless of what you want to call it, it was completely and blatantly unprofessional. Did you not listen to how he tried to rationalize it at the end by saying "if they don't agree with me, too bad?" It's really disingenuous to say it was an honest mistake.
And even if he did not, why on earth would deliberately defaming someone be acceptable as a "joke" in the first place? You don't tell lies about someone that could seriously harm their reputation and then just say "oh, it was a joke, I didn't mean it!" after the fact. In fact, there's a word for it in the court of law: slander.
It's even more ridiculous because everything Katu said about Dragon are things that could directly harm his livelihood as a gamer. Reputation and image is a huge thing in esports. But I guess it's alright cause it's just plain old "trolling". What a fucking joke.
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On February 28 2012 15:56 DarkOptik wrote:
Whether or not you call it trolling is irrelevant. Regardless of what you want to call it, it was completely and blatantly unprofessional. Did you not listen to how he tried to rationalize it at the end by saying "if they don't agree with me, too bad?" It's really disingenuous to say it was an honest mistake.
And even if he did not, why on earth would deliberately defaming someone be acceptable as a "joke" in the first place? You don't tell lies about someone that could seriously harm their reputation and then just say "oh, it was a joke, I didn't mean it!" after the fact. In fact, there's a word for it in the court of law: slander.
It's even more ridiculous because everything Katu said about Dragon are things that could directly harm his livelihood as a gamer. Reputation and image is a huge thing in esports. But I guess it's alright cause it's just plain old "trolling". What a fucking joke.
I think you're taking Katu out of context. He said "I've apologized, I've explained what happened, and I'm sorry if you disagree, and, you know, that's fine." What was intended to be conveyed by that statement was that
1) He was sorry. (He had already apologized several times previously.)
2) He had already explained that it was meant to be a joke, not a serious accusation.
3) If you don't accept his apology and explanation, that's your own choice and he has no problem with that.
Again, I agree that he made a very stupid mistake. I just think that people are blowing it out of proportion.
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Here's the final editted out the rest of the cast - judge for yourselves.
http://www.twitch.tv/playhemtv/b/310016388
Whichever way you look at it, the fact remains that Dragon is a Lone (teamless) Sc2 player looking to join a foreign team. The last thing he needs is Tournament representatives laying false, unsubstantiated accusations. So the 'was this just trolling' debate - think about how tough it must be for a young man intent on breaking away from Korea and getting to experience the world of SC2 in the foreigner scene, to find that while he was trying his best in the final of the tournement, the caster was bandying about total untruths. Sickenning if you ask me.
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Joke or Not I sincerely hope he never gets to cast again, what a joke.
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Hi everyone (and reddit),
I want to clear up a few things about what happened tonight, and explain the full details to those who may have missed some of it and only joined part way through.
Before I start, please be aware that I do not agree with the way Katu acted and we agree that he handled the situation badly, however I want to stress more than anything that Katu did not at any point actually believe Dragon was cheating. I want everyone to know this above all else because Dragon should not be dragged into this, he was not stream cheating and did nothing wrong.
What happened:
Dragon ended up on our stream as he has many times in the past, his viewers often multi-view our stream with his and so we got a large influx of viewers entering chat. Dragon's fans began criticizing Katu and his co-caster heavily during the cast and this later escalated into insults and trolling to which Katu responded by "trolling" them back. The members in chat didn't take well to this and began taking what he was saying to heart and further insulting Katu, unfortunately Katu did not step away from the situation but got caught up trying to incite the viewers with intentionally ridiculous claims (eventually hinting at him stream cheating as a cause for what we already knew was just bad lag on Dragon's part) from which point chat digressed to name calling, death threats, and pitch forks; chat became entirely unmanageable and things went down hill fast.
I want to stress again, while what Katu said was disrespectful and unprofessional, and he handled the situation very poorly, he did not actually think Dragon was cheating, or sincerely mean the other remarks he was making, they were all directed at angering the people flaming him in chat.
It's extremely unfortunate that the games we saw tonight were tarnished with childish arguments and poor behavior on our part, but what's done is done and we can't undo what transpired. Normally, respect for the players is our highest rule and one of the few we enforce with time-outs in chat, and having an incident like this occur was very out of character for how our casts normally transpire. If you were a first time viewer tonight I cannot blame you if you don't return to our stream, however I want to ask that everyone can try to put this behind us and give us a chance to improve our mistakes in the future.
From everyone that works on the production behind the PlayhemTV stream to the viewers, followers, fans, and players in our tournaments: we hope you'll accept our sincerest apologies and know that we recognize the mistakes that we made and don't intend to let them happen again.
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I'm sure you guys would like that to be true. I'm a level headed 40 year old with a background in law. Broadcasting firm statements that he's a stream cheat is disgraceful and he has a good case against your caster, and by extension your organisation. If I was Dragon, I would not take this abhorrent behavior laying down. His reputation is everything to him right now and incidents as serious as this - in your tournement Finals for goodness sakes, can't be brushed off with a casual 'he was only joking/trolling guys' - it certainly didn't sound that way as I viewed the stream. I'm no Dragon fanboy - but I recognise libel and slander when I happen upon it.
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On February 28 2012 15:50 Rainling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 15:35 Grantiere wrote:
Not clearly enough, apparently, so stop underreacting. Would you prefer that he not get called out on it?
I would prefer that people stop calling for him to be fired or heavily punished for making this mistake. I think people are overreacting, and that people actually believe that what he was saying was intended to be accusatory in some way, which is not true. If you watch Playhem regularly, you'll notice that several different casters also often do this sort of over-the-top trolling in matches. The responses in this thread are, in my opinion, more reactionary than rational, and lack perspective in terms of the casting environment of Playhem as a whole. It's more difficult to understand that all of this trolling is not ill-intentioned in any way if you are not familiar with Playhem.
Why not? What evidence do people have that he didn't intend to be accusatory, other than a self serving half-assed apology, offset by what he actually said and the manner in which he said it? People are not so socially inept as to not recognize when someone means what they say.
People are well within their right to call for punishment. Clearly he won't be in any meaningful way, given that the casting environment of Playhem apparently condones trolling and unprofessionalism as you point out. Why then are you upset that people want to vent their frustration in a public way? Do you not see that as indication that perhaps Playhem should reconsider their approach? Or are you suggesting that Playhem's over-the-top trolling satisfies a niche target audience (which Dragon effectively doubled today), and that the problem with Katu's casting lies with the audience's reaction to it, like Virgil seems to suggest?
And let's be honest. Trolling is always ill-intentioned to some degree.
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Are you kidding me? He was so serious, watch the video... damn. Once he saw the outrage from the viewers he instantly started to backpedal and play if off like a joke. Why couldn't he just apologize, instead he pretended that he was only "trolling," and then started to tell the fans to F off basically and leave the channel. This is an absolute PR disaster, I can't believe you are defending this moron.
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On February 28 2012 16:30 PlayhemTV wrote:
Hi everyone (and reddit),
I want to clear up a few things about what happened tonight, and explain the full details to those who may have missed some of it and only joined part way through.
Before I start, please be aware that I do not agree with the way Katu acted and we agree that he handled the situation badly, however I want to stress more than anything that Katu did not at any point actually believe Dragon was cheating. I want everyone to know this above all else because Dragon should not be dragged into this, he was not stream cheating and did nothing wrong.
What happened:
Dragon ended up on our stream as he has many times in the past, his viewers often multi-view our stream with his and so we got a large influx of viewers entering chat. Dragon's fans began criticizing Katu and his co-caster heavily during the cast and this later escalated into insults and trolling to which Katu responded by "trolling" them back. The members in chat didn't take well to this and began taking what he was saying to heart and further insulting Katu, unfortunately Katu did not step away from the situation but got caught up trying to incite the viewers with intentionally ridiculous claims (eventually hinting at him stream cheating as a cause for what we already knew was just bad lag on Dragon's part) from which point chat digressed to name calling, death threats, and pitch forks; chat became entirely unmanageable and things went down hill fast.
I want to stress again, while what Katu said was disrespectful and unprofessional, and he handled the situation very poorly, he did not actually think Dragon was cheating, or sincerely mean the other remarks he was making, they were all directed at angering the people flaming him in chat.
It's extremely unfortunate that the games we saw tonight were tarnished with childish arguments and poor behavior on our part, but what's done is done and we can't undo what transpired. Normally, respect for the players is our highest rule and one of the few we enforce with time-outs in chat, and having an incident like this occur was very out of character for how our casts normally transpire. If you were a first time viewer tonight I cannot blame you if you don't return to our stream, however I want to ask that everyone can try to put this behind us and give us a chance to improve our mistakes in the future.
From everyone that works on the production behind the PlayhemTV stream to the viewers, followers, fans, and players in our tournaments: we hope you'll accept our sincerest apologies and know that we recognize the mistakes that we made and don't intend to let them happen again.
How will you handle this if it does happen again? And since others have pointed out that this isn't the first time your casters have been unprofessional, did you not care in the past, or did you just not do anything in the past?
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Most of the viewers understand that Playhem never intended for things like this to happen. Is Playhem taking any steps to make sure that it does not happen again? Are you going to make sure casters understand what is unacceptable? Is the caster in question going to be punished?
Of course Playhem had no intent of something like this to happen tonight or any night. What I want as a viewer is some sort of assurance that it will not happen again.
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On February 28 2012 16:41 Grantiere wrote:
How will you handle this if it does happen again? And since others have pointed out that this isn't the first time your casters have been unprofessional, did you not care in the past, or did you just not do anything in the past?
We are always trying to improve, we take all criticism to heart. We actively encourage all viewers to post their feedback (negative or positive) in this thread, and we work on those points. It's clear that tonight a very big line was crossed, one that previously wasn't an issue with minor incidents of trolling as nobody really brought it up to us, we recognize that and plan to make changes to improve our stream to best suit our viewers.
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On February 28 2012 16:30 PlayhemTV wrote:
Hi everyone (and reddit),
I want to clear up a few things about what happened tonight, and explain the full details to those who may have missed some of it and only joined part way through.
Before I start, please be aware that I do not agree with the way Katu acted and we agree that he handled the situation badly, however I want to stress more than anything that Katu did not at any point actually believe Dragon was cheating. I want everyone to know this above all else because Dragon should not be dragged into this, he was not stream cheating and did nothing wrong.
What happened:
Dragon ended up on our stream as he has many times in the past, his viewers often multi-view our stream with his and so we got a large influx of viewers entering chat. Dragon's fans began criticizing Katu and his co-caster heavily during the cast and this later escalated into insults and trolling to which Katu responded by "trolling" them back. The members in chat didn't take well to this and began taking what he was saying to heart and further insulting Katu, unfortunately Katu did not step away from the situation but got caught up trying to incite the viewers with intentionally ridiculous claims (eventually hinting at him stream cheating as a cause for what we already knew was just bad lag on Dragon's part) from which point chat digressed to name calling, death threats, and pitch forks; chat became entirely unmanageable and things went down hill fast.
I want to stress again, while what Katu said was disrespectful and unprofessional, and he handled the situation very poorly, he did not actually think Dragon was cheating, or sincerely mean the other remarks he was making, they were all directed at angering the people flaming him in chat.
It's extremely unfortunate that the games we saw tonight were tarnished with childish arguments and poor behavior on our part, but what's done is done and we can't undo what transpired. Normally, respect for the players is our highest rule and one of the few we enforce with time-outs in chat, and having an incident like this occur was very out of character for how our casts normally transpire. If you were a first time viewer tonight I cannot blame you if you don't return to our stream, however I want to ask that everyone can try to put this behind us and give us a chance to improve our mistakes in the future.
From everyone that works on the production behind the PlayhemTV stream to the viewers, followers, fans, and players in our tournaments: we hope you'll accept our sincerest apologies and know that we recognize the mistakes that we made and don't intend to let them happen again.
Nonsense. I absolutely refuse to buy this. Katu wasn't trolling, it's fairly obvious he was just a misinformed, biased caster.
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Edit: Another double post (sorry)
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In the past playhem casters have had a history of being rude not only to the players, but viewers as well.
Recently I've felt it has fallen off significantly, however today's events were a significant drop off in that respect.
Casting should be treated as a job, not a pedestal to push their personal beliefs. You don't see Artosis complaining on how awful marauders are on GSL, despite his rather open opinion of this in youtube videos and Q&As.
My point is it doesn't matter what Katu believed Dragon did, it matters if what he did was professional and acceptable way to behave as a caster.
It seems pretty clear that it was not. I think Katu has done enough work to be given some slack, but a public apology to Dragon and the community, along with a promise to improve in the future, would be appropriate.
This is VERY negative PR towards Dragon, who is currently looking for a team. This definitely is not helping him, or anyone else for that matter, in any way.
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On February 28 2012 16:30 PlayhemTV wrote:
Hi everyone (and reddit),
I want to clear up a few things about what happened tonight, and explain the full details to those who may have missed some of it and only joined part way through.
Before I start, please be aware that I do not agree with the way Katu acted and we agree that he handled the situation badly, however I want to stress more than anything that Katu did not at any point actually believe Dragon was cheating. I want everyone to know this above all else because Dragon should not be dragged into this, he was not stream cheating and did nothing wrong.
What happened:
Dragon ended up on our stream as he has many times in the past, his viewers often multi-view our stream with his and so we got a large influx of viewers entering chat. Dragon's fans began criticizing Katu and his co-caster heavily during the cast and this later escalated into insults and trolling to which Katu responded by "trolling" them back. The members in chat didn't take well to this and began taking what he was saying to heart and further insulting Katu, unfortunately Katu did not step away from the situation but got caught up trying to incite the viewers with intentionally ridiculous claims (eventually hinting at him stream cheating as a cause for what we already knew was just bad lag on Dragon's part) from which point chat digressed to name calling, death threats, and pitch forks; chat became entirely unmanageable and things went down hill fast.
I want to stress again, while what Katu said was disrespectful and unprofessional, and he handled the situation very poorly, he did not actually think Dragon was cheating, or sincerely mean the other remarks he was making, they were all directed at angering the people flaming him in chat.
It's extremely unfortunate that the games we saw tonight were tarnished with childish arguments and poor behavior on our part, but what's done is done and we can't undo what transpired. Normally, respect for the players is our highest rule and one of the few we enforce with time-outs in chat, and having an incident like this occur was very out of character for how our casts normally transpire. If you were a first time viewer tonight I cannot blame you if you don't return to our stream, however I want to ask that everyone can try to put this behind us and give us a chance to improve our mistakes in the future.
From everyone that works on the production behind the PlayhemTV stream to the viewers, followers, fans, and players in our tournaments: we hope you'll accept our sincerest apologies and know that we recognize the mistakes that we made and don't intend to let them happen again.
This is in somewhat of a contrast to what showed up in mod chat (an image that has been shared around on Reddit) Katu seemed to be upset for being reprimanded by the other mods, and did not seem to see that he did anything wrong. The rest of the mods and casters present seemed to come out strongly against what was said, but here you differ blame (which, though there is some on each side, is not the correct PR move). Because of all this, regardless of "what he meant" it doesn't seem like he fully understands the ramifications of what he said and should be at least in some manner held accountable. A properly formed official statement should include something besides the defense of the caster unless you want to vilify yourself further. What you've said here in a TLDR form is the following:
There was a back and forth between people who normally are in our chat, newcomers who are overzealous toward their enjoyment of Dragon, and a caster. The caster made unprofessional claims but didn't mean them and didn't (and possibly still does not) understand the ramifications of those claims. Therefore it is ok that it happened as long as you understand that it is not the norm. Lets move on.
What you should do is note what was wrong and explain the situation while minimizing the fault of others and taking near full responsibility (let others come forward and take their blame or not). Then state how you will rectify the situation and how the caster will play into that process, and then say we will move forward. You're missing key steps that from a PR perspective would negate some backlash, but here you leave yourself wide open for this to continue.
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EPT
