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On February 28 2012 16:38 Grantiere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 15:50 Rainling wrote:On February 28 2012 15:35 Grantiere wrote:
Not clearly enough, apparently, so stop underreacting. Would you prefer that he not get called out on it?
I would prefer that people stop calling for him to be fired or heavily punished for making this mistake. I think people are overreacting, and that people actually believe that what he was saying was intended to be accusatory in some way, which is not true. If you watch Playhem regularly, you'll notice that several different casters also often do this sort of over-the-top trolling in matches. The responses in this thread are, in my opinion, more reactionary than rational, and lack perspective in terms of the casting environment of Playhem as a whole. It's more difficult to understand that all of this trolling is not ill-intentioned in any way if you are not familiar with Playhem. Why not? What evidence do people have that he didn't intend to be accusatory, other than a self serving half-assed apology, offset by what he actually said and the manner in which he said it? People are not so socially inept as to not recognize when someone means what they say. People are well within their right to call for punishment. Clearly he won't be in any meaningful way, given that the casting environment of Playhem apparently condones trolling and unprofessionalism as you point out. Why then are you upset that people want to vent their frustration in a public way? Do you not see that as indication that perhaps Playhem should reconsider their approach? Or are you suggesting that Playhem's over-the-top trolling satisfies a niche target audience (which Dragon effectively doubled today), and that the problem with Katu's casting lies with the audience's reaction to it, like Virgil seems to suggest? And let's be honest. Trolling is always ill-intentioned to some degree.
I probably didn't state that as clearly as I should have. Day[9] does a lot of what people could call "trolling" of players in his dailies that most people would agree is not ill-intentioned. The "trolling" I'm talking about that occurs sometimes in Playhem games is similar to that, poking fun at the players, which is much more professional and less irresponsible than what Katu did today.
What Katu did was disrespectful and uncalled for, and he probably deserves some kind of punishment. My main point was that he didn't intend it to be accusatory.
What I meant to say is that in Playhem casts, the casters sometimes joke about the players without intending their comments to be taken seriously. I'm fairly certain that this case is similar to other Playhem casts in that the comments Katu made were not intended to be accusations.
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I would like to say I love watching Dragon and trying to play (albeit shittly *dunno if thats a word*) SC2, esports is relatively small and still trying to grow in the US. It is disheartening for these events to happen, even if your caster is getting "trolled" by chat previously, that is not an excuse. As many people who watch these events who have actual jobs, what happened is the equivalent of having a meeting, complaining your tired, and blurting out obscene comments because you don't like your co-worker. These acts are not acceptable for someone in a professional setting. I enjoy casters examining both players type of play and mechanics, not continually bashing a player due to his play style, I believe Dragon was called Greedy 20 times or something... that is not helpful during the cast. For companies who have the funds to have tournaments and cast them online it should be important they have employees who can expand esports in every-way possible. A half hearted apology about the trolls in chat and that "I was joking" after saying "I don't understand why fellow casters are yelling at me" is not acceptable. Please help SC2 and not create stupid rifts and controversies which lead to nothing.
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On February 28 2012 16:50 MrCash wrote:
In the past playhem casters have had a history of being rude not only to the players, but viewers as well.
Recently I've felt it has fallen off significantly, however this is quite a big mistake.
Casting should be treated as a job, not a pedestal to push their personal beliefs. You don't see Artosis complaining on how awful marauders are on GSL, despite his rather open opinion of this in youtube videos and Q&As.
My point is it doesn't matter what Katu believed Dragon did, it matters if what he did was professional and acceptable way to behave as a caster.
It seems pretty clear that it was not. I think Katu has done enough work to be given some slack, but a public apology to Dragon and the community, along with a promise to improve in the future, would be appropriate.
I've had similar experiences lately, particularly with Katu. He often makes fun of players who don't play to the level of the high-grandmasters they face. I once said that I was done listening for the night because it sickened me that they treated players like that. Katu had said he didn't know "what the heck [I was] talking about."
Over the last maybe 4-6 months I've been watching almost DAILY (when its on), with fiascos such as getting banned by no one (there was a glitch that would ban me from chat but the ban log said no one did it), criticisms of Lyrlian, and even Steisjo getting mad at me for talking in Norwegian too him. But as much as Lyrlian is a little more obnoxious in style to me, I would watch the EU Daily 10x more often than the NA Daily just on the grounds of the casting for NA slowly sliding to the "fart jokes for laughs" style.
Pokebunny though. Pokebunny is a fantastic caster and I was glad when he joined up. I just worry about the path this may be going down if this is the norm.
I'm glad I missed the cast tonight I guess.
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As SC2 is pretty much the driving force of ESports currently, behavior such as this really just cannot be accepted. I don't care if he was "trolling" or "joking" this is the kind of stuff that just shouldn't be around if the ESports scene wants to be taken seriously by any means. This is the kind of stuff that will scare sponsors away because it is blatantly polarizing and just limits the availability of their product to be advertised.
Sorry Playhem this half-assed apology that pretty much blames the community for "trolling" the casters is just asinine. Time for ESports companies to grow up and realize that if they are to be taken as serious entities they cannot allow their employees to act like hide-behind-the-computer "trolls." This is not the kind of thing that will further your product and I don't think Katu realizes that by acting in such a way he effects the SC2 community as a whole.
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On February 28 2012 16:30 PlayhemTV wrote:
I want to stress again, while what Katu said was disrespectful and unprofessional, and he handled the situation very poorly, he did not actually think Dragon was cheating, or sincerely mean the other remarks he was making, they were all directed at angering the people flaming him in chat.
I'll post what posted I on reddit in response to your comment.
Did you watch the VOD? His initial accusations were spurred from his own "analytical" casting, not in response to chat. You may argue his further grave digging was solely in response to chat, however his initial remarks were not. It was his initial ignorant remarks that got people riled up, and it was his continual defense of those remarks that got people even more upset. What Katu said, in a live public broadcast was pure slander, whether he was joking or not is irrelevant. If these same type of slanderous comments were made during a mainstream sporting even the caster who made the remarks would be fired, and possibly face legal backlash from the person he was slandering. A caster making a joke about someone cheating in SC2 is like a commentator for baseball making a joke during a live broadcast about a player using steroids. He made accusations and stated them as fact, he should be removed from your casting roster.
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On February 28 2012 16:59 larrykins wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 16:30 PlayhemTV wrote:
I want to stress again, while what Katu said was disrespectful and unprofessional, and he handled the situation very poorly, he did not actually think Dragon was cheating, or sincerely mean the other remarks he was making, they were all directed at angering the people flaming him in chat.
I'll post what posted I on reddit in response to your comment. Did you watch the VOD? His initial accusations were spurred from his own "analytical" casting, not in response to chat. You may argue his further grave digging was solely in response to chat, however his initial remarks were not. It was his initial ignorant remarks that got people riled up, and it was his continual defense of those remarks that got people even more upset. What Katu said, in a live public broadcast was pure slander, whether he was joking or not is irrelevant. If these same type of slanderous comments were made during a mainstream sporting even the caster who made the remarks would be fired, and possibly face legal backlash from the person he was slandering. A caster making a joke about someone cheating in SC2 is like a commentator for baseball making a joke during a live broadcast about a player using steroids. He made accusations and stated them as fact, he should be removed from your casting roster.
Please understand I'm not defending Katu's position, I only want to make sure that the question of Dragon cheating stays out of this discussions.
Katu did not think he was cheating and the comments were baseless, we have no reason to believe he was cheating whether the remarks were inflammatory or not.
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On February 28 2012 17:08 godulous wrote:
Please understand I'm not defending Katu's position, I only want to make sure that the question of Dragon cheating stays out of this discussions.
Katu did not think he was cheating and the comments were baseless, we have no reason to believe he was cheating whether the remarks were inflammatory or not.
I am not talking about whether Dragon was cheating or not, so I am unsure why you even brought that up. I was trying to show you that it was not the chat that caused him to make the accusation like you claim.
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Yeah, look I just want to say that I watch the Playhem regularly and I have become accustomed to Katu's humor. But he was completely out of line with his comments. He continually said, "I'm not even going to say or imply that he's stream cheated" after he'd implied it 10 times. To even say that Dragon was cheating because he lifted a factory and didn't lift his barracks could in any way at all mean that he was cheating. He seemed completely and totally serious. I don't hold it against Playhem, Bonk or any of the other casters, but I can assure you that I will NOT be watching the Playhem when Katu is casting unless he actually gives a sincere apology (his apology on stream was the most half hearted / false apology ever and he also starts going off on other Playhem employee that "weren't backing him up") . I agree that people need to let it go in the sense that they do not need to blame it on Playhem but Playhem needs to actually do something about this situation and not let it go. I don't think that Playhem needs to keep apologizing for Katu. As a community though, I think that we would like to know that there was some sort of consequence for Katu's actions (suspension possibly but not Katu being fired) because I don't care if he "didn't actually believe that Dragon was cheating" because it doesn't matter if he actually thought that..because he can say he didn't believe it all he wants but that doesn't change anything about what he said.
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On February 28 2012 16:50 MrCash wrote:
In the past playhem casters have had a history of being rude not only to the players, but viewers as well.
Recently I've felt it has fallen off significantly, however today's events were a significant drop off in that respect.
Casting should be treated as a job, not a pedestal to push their personal beliefs. You don't see Artosis complaining on how awful marauders are on GSL, despite his rather open opinion of this in youtube videos and Q&As.
My point is it doesn't matter what Katu believed Dragon did, it matters if what he did was professional and acceptable way to behave as a caster.
It seems pretty clear that it was not. I think Katu has done enough work to be given some slack, but a public apology to Dragon and the community, along with a promise to improve in the future, would be appropriate.
This is VERY negative PR towards Dragon, who is currently looking for a team. This definitely is not helping him, or anyone else for that matter, in any way.
One thing I'd like to add, that I feel that others can sympathize with, is that I am not really a Dragon fan.
I personally don't like his style, I've watched his stream and I think he can be very funny and entertaining streamer, but not something that appeals to me. He does entertain many people and as any other hard working player, I still hope that he can be successful.
Just being objective and fair, I can't imagine any player tolerating being casted in this manner. No one wants to be treated like this or have others treated in this manner, especially in such a public fashion.
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On February 28 2012 17:13 mistaspoon wrote:
I don't think that Playhem needs to keep apologizing for Katu. As a community though, I think that we would like to know that there was some sort of consequence for Katu's actions (suspension possibly but not Katu being fired).
We discussed it internally along with the other casters present and I think Katu recognized that he went too far, whether or not he wishes to make a statement on his own behalf is up to him. At the moment it's uncertain how this will affect his long term role as a caster for us but I'll leave an update when things have been settled.
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Larrykins is right. The chat did not start what was going on, Katu did. Katu's extremely biased casting favoring his zerg teammate started everything. The chat, which hundreds of Dragon's fans just switched to, reacted to his biased commentary saying things like: "what's with the dragon hate?", "screw this caster", "why do they hate dragon?". Katu then took it way beyond the line of what is acceptable.
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On February 28 2012 17:18 godulous wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 17:13 mistaspoon wrote:
I don't think that Playhem needs to keep apologizing for Katu. As a community though, I think that we would like to know that there was some sort of consequence for Katu's actions (suspension possibly but not Katu being fired). We discussed it internally along with the other casters present and I think Katu recognized that he went too far, whether or not he wishes to make a statement on his own behalf is up to him. At the moment it's uncertain how this will affect his long term role as a caster for us but I'll leave an update when things have been settled.
Thank you for this information Godulous. It should have been stated before, in the press release, so that we could have known from the start that at the very least the role he plays is up for discussion after the incident.
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If Katu has anything to do with a Playhem stream again i'll stop participating in tourneys as well as stop watching the stream. Simple as that. He has no business being a caster.
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On February 28 2012 17:14 MrCash wrote:
One thing I'd like to add, that I feel that others can sympathize with, is that I am not really a Dragon fan.
I personally don't like his style, I've watched his stream and I think he can be very funny and entertaining streamer, but not something that appeals to me. He does entertain many people and as any other hard working player, I still hope that he can be successful.
Just being objective and fair, I can't imagine any player tolerating being casted in this manner. No one wants to be treated like this or have others treated in this manner, especially in such a public fashion.
I agree with you, and want to also note that Katu personally went and apologized to Dragon after the cast with the help of a translator. Hopefully Dragon will understand and there wont be any hard feelings between us as we love having him participate in the tournament and have had him on for a show match as well.
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On February 28 2012 16:38 ColtSeavers wrote:
I'm sure you guys would like that to be true. I'm a level headed 40 year old with a background in law. Broadcasting firm statements that he's a stream cheat is disgraceful and he has a good case against your caster, and by extension your organisation. If I was Dragon, I would not take this abhorrent behavior laying down. His reputation is everything to him right now and incidents as serious as this - in your tournement Finals for goodness sakes, can't be brushed off with a casual 'he was only joking/trolling guys' - it certainly didn't sound that way as I viewed the stream. I'm no Dragon fanboy - but I recognise libel and slander when I happen upon it.
I don't think there is any recourse for him legally. He would never be able to prove damages, as they would be minor if any. Yes the caster is an idiot, but I don't think it should be blown out of proportion.
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On February 28 2012 17:26 Noktix wrote:
If Katu has anything to do with a Playhem stream again i'll stop participating in tourneys as well as stop watching the stream. Simple as that. He has no business being a caster.
I'm 2nding this. Done with Playhem for now.
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Too be honest he's not a bad caster and made a mistake. I can't believe people are making such a big deal about this.
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I'm not suggesting he issues proceedings. Just pointing out that he has every right to. I must confess, my expertise is in European Law, not US. However, I have litigated in the states many times (with the help of US legal teams) and in my experience, Punitive Damages (ie Payment to the affected party disproportionate to any real financial losses) for matters such as Slander or Bad Faith are commonplace. In the EU punitive damages are much less significant and rarely tolerated - not so in the US. Alot would turn on the terms and conditions (whether implied or specific) for competing in a Playhem tournement - and I have no idea what they entail.
I don't think this matter warrants legal proceedings by any means - but was just hypothesizing.
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On February 28 2012 17:26 Noktix wrote:
If Katu has anything to do with a Playhem stream again i'll stop participating in tourneys as well as stop watching the stream. Simple as that. He has no business being a caster.
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This might be the grossest community overreaction i've seen in a long time.
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EPT
