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On May 07 2011 02:43 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 02:34 Osmoses wrote:
I do love drama. Wish I hadn't missed the game though :/ http://www.justin.tv/eg_idra/b/285221418Around 30~ minutes in. I just watched it and it's really not bad at all. People are overreacting purely on IdrA's comments rather than what actually went on. Cruncher's wall is weird, but it's basically a double gateway forge wall for Tal'darim with a Cyc further back, which is what some P FE's with vs Zerg. How the Gateway timing can be considered "fishy" is beyond me, since Cruncher delayed IdrA's hatchery and knows IdrA needs early damage to catch up. Given it was Cruncher, he was probably pooling gas for a Stargate, rather than blinding countering a Roach/Ling all in. IdrA says, "two Gateways before.. (Cybernetics Core) he's definitely watching." Now go watch Forge FE games from other top Protoss on Tal'darim. In just two minutes I've found VODs of White_ra and others doing the same thing (albeit with a better wall.) Then again, a very, very, very good Protoss expert did tell me it's suspicious. :x We really would need a replay or Cruncher's VOD to help.
I'm sorry Jibba but how do you assume that IdrA needs to do early damage ? Forcing cruncher to build 2 canon was already enough to get back from the little delayed hatch. I mean, I don't know if cruncher was indeed checking idra's stream and I don't care, but your theory is just theory. It's most likely that cruncher assumed IdrA would be going for an early agressiv play because that's how idra play ZvP right now.
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On May 07 2011 02:40 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 23:32 Jotoco wrote:
Because if he did admit, the chances of him being banned from TSL or something is pretty high.
He will never admit it, but I think his post after the match in his fanclub is admission enough, too bad mods asked him to edit it out
Oh, well. I never asked him to edit it out. I asked him to clarify what he meanted by "sniped" and he edited that into his post to remove ambiguity. Stop making shit up. He kept his original post and edited in an explanation at my request. Then, later, he edited the "Sniped" part out.
I would edit my previous post, but the thread moved to quickly.
I see you answered me here, and I appreciate the clarification. I was not making shit up, I was per using what evidence I had at the time (several different users in Idra's and Cruncher's fanclub saying you asked him to edit it out), with your official wording, no need to doubt it.
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TL admins are nazis with double standards, protecting themselves and their own players from reasonable criticism while treating players from other teams poorly.
I am always dissapointed to see someone banned for saying a TL player played bad (see comments on Huk in GSL getting bans) while if other players from other teams are referred to in a derogatory way nothing is done.
Also cruncher is a horrible player so this does not apply to TL defending him as they probably acted out of sympathy for his pathetic life.
I will enjoy my ban.
gg TL
User was banned for this post.
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On May 07 2011 03:29 Uniden wrote:
TL admins are nazis with double standards, protecting themselves and their own players from reasonable criticism while treating players from other teams poorly.
I am always dissapointed to see someone banned for saying a TL player played bad (see comments on Huk in GSL getting bans) while if other players from other teams are referred to in a derogatory way nothing is done.
Also cruncher is a horrible player so this does not apply to TL defending him as they probably acted out of sympathy for his pathetic life.
I will enjoy my ban.
gg TL
What a waste of a good user name...
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On May 07 2011 02:15 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 01:40 blackone wrote:On May 07 2011 01:21 tGFuRy wrote: Stream cheating is fucking retarded. That is like maphacking. Or in this case, like being caught using a maphack during the full duration of a game, and then everybody says "but there is no proof that he actually used his maphack for looking at areas where he normally couldn't see anything, we have to assume he just forgot to close the maphack program and didn't actually benefit from it". Look, I know some of you (most) aren't from the Brood War community, but we've gone through this shit a million times before. Idra and Artosis being "100% sure" someone is a maphacker. But you can't do anything based on speculation. Sometimes methods were released and those suspected were actually hackers. But more often than not they weren't. So you can keep in the back of your mind that you think Cruncher is a tool and a cheater, but you can't expect TL as an entity to act on it. Funny story I'll release here: Before TSL, I used to play with Sheth a fucking lot when he was nS-g.Omni. Then he got really good and I never saw him again. Then, almost suddenly, during TSL2, he was at the top of the ladder as Chosen, taking many games off Mondragon. I "knew" he was a hacker, because he didn't have the skill to play at Mondragon's level. He always seemed to have the right counter ready to kill Mondragon. I spent a few hours with Kennigit grinding through his replay pack looking for proof. But there was no proof. And I'm glad I never made a public comment about that because it's embarassing. Sheth (Chosen) was just that good.
I think you're right with that, and I wouldn't accuse him of cheating based on his play. It looked weird but he could have just predicted what idra was doing; that's unlikely but absolutely possible. I just think that having somebodys stream open while you're playing him (and that's what he did during the whole game) is cheating, whether or not you actually listened to it or not, in the same way I'd consider running a maphack cheating whether or not you're actually taking advantage of it or not, or a cyclist that gets caught with EPO in his baggage would be suspended whether he used it or not. That's just different opinions on where cheating starts, but I don't think at this point you can just call it "speculation".
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On May 06 2011 13:26 garlicface wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 13:12 Zocat wrote:On May 06 2011 10:19 stevarius wrote:On May 06 2011 10:09 BombaySensei wrote:On May 06 2011 10:04 stevarius wrote:On May 06 2011 10:03 BombaySensei wrote:On May 06 2011 09:36 Parabol732 wrote:And to think it all started with a  well, ok, but that's not what it started with  Then what did it start with? A colossus/void ray death ball? A 6 gate? I must know! "I'm approaching the match as if it were a walkover... he's going to 4 gate all-in both games unless he decides to be clever and make voidrays or DTs." http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=204838IMO Rofl. Now it all comes back to mind. It's been a while, but now I remember.... my butt is still hurt over that series.  But.... Idra plays better than he did that series now. Prior to that incident there was the EG vs ONE teamwar in SGL, where Idra wasnt allowed to play (organization error, but ONE could've allowed it) and the ONE leader (on page2) said "But with the disrespect IdrA has shown my team in the last few days and the comments he has made, I have no reason to do him any favors." Cruncher was a sub for ONE (I think he was a ONE member, dont know) and he played (and ONE beat EG). Prior to that (and I think there are some references in that SGL thread) Idra called Cruncher bad (maybe more). I think it was during JP and Friends featuring EG.IdrA but I havent watched that just speculation since during the 1st youtube vid Cruncher is playing. If there was something earlier - I dont know. JP and Friends - IdrA vs CrunCherHere it is. Hopefully now this story can be put to rest since we have "the beginning" out in the open. + Forgot to mention, just skip to 1:15.
oh lol, thanks for that link! If it were anyone else saying that, I'd think they were just teasing, but IdrA usually means it!
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On May 07 2011 03:33 SiguR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 03:29 Uniden wrote:
TL admins are nazis with double standards, protecting themselves and their own players from reasonable criticism while treating players from other teams poorly.
I am always dissapointed to see someone banned for saying a TL player played bad (see comments on Huk in GSL getting bans) while if other players from other teams are referred to in a derogatory way nothing is done.
Also cruncher is a horrible player so this does not apply to TL defending him as they probably acted out of sympathy for his pathetic life.
I will enjoy my ban.
gg TL
What a waste of a good user name...
I wonder if that was the real Uniden becuse if it was its kinda sad to just sacrifice yourself like that when you are semi-famous
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Wait so Cruncher posted a screenshot of him having Idra's stream opened while he was playing and yet ppl say that's not enough evidence? Where's the logic in that?
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Everyday I see new things which this thread isn't about, I'm starting to wonder what it is about nowadays
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Guys, guys, calm down. I'm pretty sure it's a dominant opinion that idra is a better player than cruncher, but cruncher just likes to troll idra.
The problem, is that idra isn't streaming because he got banned. I was looking forward to seeing him commentate/stream today but I guess I'll have to study for my finals instead
So I'm guessing he's not streaming until Sunday? Or maybe not at all since I think maybe Sunday he's leaving to go commentate the NASL?
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On May 07 2011 03:57 Essentia wrote:
Wait so Cruncher posted a screenshot of him having Idra's stream opened while he was playing and yet ppl say that's not enough evidence? Where's the logic in that?
Before you question others logic, you may want to question your own. Just because he had the stream opened doesn't mean he was actively viewing it and or listening to it.
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On May 07 2011 04:17 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 03:57 Essentia wrote:
Wait so Cruncher posted a screenshot of him having Idra's stream opened while he was playing and yet ppl say that's not enough evidence? Where's the logic in that? Before you question others logic, you may want to question your own. Just because he had the stream opened doesn't mean he was actively viewing it and or listening to it.
i had aces up my sleeve, but it doesn't mean i was going to use them
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So what is a proof of cruncher stream cheating ?
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On May 07 2011 04:24 Justanx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:17 PanN wrote:On May 07 2011 03:57 Essentia wrote:
Wait so Cruncher posted a screenshot of him having Idra's stream opened while he was playing and yet ppl say that's not enough evidence? Where's the logic in that? Before you question others logic, you may want to question your own. Just because he had the stream opened doesn't mean he was actively viewing it and or listening to it. i had aces up my sleeve, but it doesn't mean i was going to use them
You need to touch up on your logic a bit as well.
Having aces up your sleeve during a card match... what do they gain from that? Oh yeah, they get to cheat and win, thats all their goal is.
But what was crunchers goal having his stream open? Oh, thats right, to snipe and play idrA, doesn't mean he cheated to do it.
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Well in my opinion it was definitely not a bannable offense. How the hell do you think you'd feel if someone (that you hated anyway), completely cheated in a match against you? Of course you'd be angry. So apparently being angry is not allowed in the TL community. IdrA also gives a hell of a lot to the starcraft community so banning him from the site seems a bit outrageous. Moreover, by banning him the mods have pissed off thousands of IdrA fans and for what? To show a bit of authority? Because they were bored? Finally; I saw a post on this thread in which a mod called somebody a "retard" which is DEFINITELY worse than calling someone a waste of life, so much so that it must obviously go unpunished. The sheer amount of bias shown by the mods of this site is fucking ridiculous. If you were a little more lenient then maybe people wouldn't be so frustrated with the way the site is managed. GG chillfag.
User was banned for this post.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina114 Posts
On May 06 2011 10:05 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 09:35 haylmfao wrote:On May 06 2011 09:31 H wrote:On May 06 2011 09:24 Sushbag wrote:
What's the connection between a ban on these forums and then refusing to stream? Clearly it's posturing, but if Idra really cared about the front page exposure he gets on TL he probably wouldn't risk posting at all; this isn't an environment where you can actually say what you want like an adult. It's not like State of the Game. TL can run their site however they want but since they run it like they do, why does anyone care about this forum? Calling someone a waste of life over a computer game is not something an adult does. I'm sorry you think it is. So cheating in ladder is okay? It's just a computer game after all isn't it? What about cheating in a tournament? Still a computer game. Hell, playing computer games is ABSOLUTELY not something an adult does, why does this site even exist? We should all quit SC2 and go do something useful with our lives! The Blizzard Ladder and JustinTV are not under the jurisdiction of TeamLiquid. Cruncher didn't say anything in his post to get banned, unless there was something nasty before it was edited, of which I am unaware. It cannot be proved that Cruncher cheated by listening/watching to Idra's stream. There is obviously evidence that would support that accusation, but nothing concrete. He provided in the aforementioned post of his some sound reasoning for expecting an all-in. Idra also provided similar reasoning when he said [I'm just gonna all-in since his Nexus is up before my hatchery]. If that's such a logical decision for Idra, it's equally logical for Cruncher to expect it. Add the precedent set recently by aggressive zergs such as Losira and Idra himself. (snip)
Jesus, dude, this isn't a murder trial. But if it were, what you're saying would be akin to a lawyer saying: "Look, my client didn't commit this murder. After all, there are no pictures of him holding the knife and stabbing the victim." That's would be such a weak argument. Don't you agree?
Strictly speaking, your post contains what is called argumentum ad ignorantiam - "the fallacy that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false or that it is false simply because it has not been proved true."
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/ignorance.html
Ever heard of circumstantial evidence?
Let me list what we have in this case:
- Did you watch Idra's stream? He was on fire. Go on, watch it, and tell me how many games Idra lost during it.
- People want to provoke him into raging/ragequittting and will do anything to go down in history as a part of his epic BM (in this case, streamcheating)
- Idra gives insightful comments on how his opponents play and how they think.
I'm not sure if he's going around the back... Yeah. I'm just going to have to sac an expo. That's really weird. He should try to push the attack up here. Sieging tanks here and then having the marines come up. That's very strong. You have to invest quite a bit to get those units that early and only force the hatchery cancel, that's not worth it, so I'm in good shape now. He still has a dangerous army, though. Now he's really paranoid about mutas, so he's just going to turtle and take his third.
(...)
The map is too long to do lethal damage, so 2 base all-in is not going to work.
He's pushing way too slow. He's trying to do too many things at once.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.justin.tv/eg_idra/b/285221418
(around 44:00)
So when Idra says
Given that he's a fa**it, he's probably listening to this stream.
and
Yeah, he's listening. You can at least try and hide it.
during his game vs Cruncher, you can say 'Hmm, Idra so far knew exactly the thought process of his opponents and when Cruncher just blindly countered his build, there was something fishy and he called him out on it".
Or you can say Idra is 'a whiner' and should 'manner up'.
- Cruncher was intentionally trying to get into the game vs Idra.
- Cruncher watched Idra's stream
- Cruncher's current record vs Idra is 3-20
- Cruncher's apologetic post here on TL (why he tries to explain himself if he won fairly?).
- Idra faced turtling terrans one after another, and when he met Cruncher who turtled as well, he tried all-in, it failed, and as a justification for leaving, Idra said the first thing that crossed his mind & this also explains why the 'waste of life' comment - maybe he thought that playing vs Cruncher is a waste of life because all he does is turtle?
- Idra didn't rage about it afterwards, he just kept on playing.
- Idra is quite outspoken. In other words, he's fucking insane, because he always says what he thinks, but doesn't do it simply to flame (re: Rekrul 'foreigners suck' threads).
So, now what? Despite what I wrote above, I would not punish Cruncher in any way. There's just not enough proof that he streamcheated. But, this will hurt his reputation either way, and if he did cheat, it is just a matter of time before he slips up and gets caught red-handed. This 'sniping' was a real poor decision, Cruncher, and nothing positive could ever come from it. You got your win vs Idra, but you lost so much more.
Anyway, now we have a great topic for the next round of interviews.with Greg.
We need Idra. SC2 needs him. God damn it, I need him!
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wow he's just gone for 2 days, guys... get over it already its not a big deal
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On May 07 2011 04:17 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 03:57 Essentia wrote:
Wait so Cruncher posted a screenshot of him having Idra's stream opened while he was playing and yet ppl say that's not enough evidence? Where's the logic in that? Before you question others logic, you may want to question your own. Just because he had the stream opened doesn't mean he was actively viewing it and or listening to it.
Yeah you're right, just because in class someone texted me ALL the answers to an exam I'm about to take and I have them OPEN on my phone doesn't mean I would look at them..........
sure it doesnt prove it but cmon it's at the least very shady and cruncher should be warned not to do this in the future since it becomes so easy to cheat when you have someones stream open who you are laddering against.
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i believe someone else took the pic of Cruncher's stream. Having watched his stream many times, i know he just tries to snipe Idra to make him rage, but doesn't leave the stream on.
Who knows if he did it this time or not (probably people who were watching Cruncher's stream know for sure), but from what i've seen in the past he's never done it, i dont know why he'd start now.
I find this hilarious, and hope him and others do it more often. People only watch Idra because of all of his drama anyways.
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EPT
