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[Stream] IdrA - Page 102

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Asday
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom388 Posts
May 06 2011 19:58 GMT
#2021
Ever noticed how CrunCher's name is "Abdulaziz Abed"? I think maybe IdrA was banned in a fit of political correctness.

User was temp banned for this post.
Pokedude1013
Profile Joined August 2010
116 Posts
May 06 2011 19:58 GMT
#2022
On May 07 2011 04:56 Guvna wrote:
. People only watch Idra because of all of his drama anyways.


Spot the scrub
Get out
Mailing
Profile Joined March 2011
United States3087 Posts
May 06 2011 19:59 GMT
#2023
On May 07 2011 04:56 Guvna wrote:
i believe someone else took the pic of Cruncher's stream. Having watched his stream many times, i know he just tries to snipe Idra to make him rage, but doesn't leave the stream on.

Who knows if he did it this time or not (probably people who were watching Cruncher's stream know for sure), but from what i've seen in the past he's never done it, i dont know why he'd start now.

I find this hilarious, and hope him and others do it more often. People only watch Idra because of all of his drama anyways.


They watch him because he is the best zerg that speaks english, and the community is mostly zerg players.

Are you hurting ESPORTS? Find out today - http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=232866
Sqq
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway2023 Posts
May 06 2011 20:00 GMT
#2024
Was looking forward to watching the stream tonight. Oh well.
Dead girls don't say no.
unoriginalname
Profile Joined November 2010
England380 Posts
May 06 2011 20:02 GMT
#2025
On May 07 2011 04:56 Guvna wrote:
People only watch Idra because of all of his drama anyways.


People watch him since he's a good player, people are defending him because he's a good player, people are upset about the delays to the streaming because he's a good player.
Hmmm
Fallingtoss
Profile Joined October 2010
United States14 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 20:07:46
May 06 2011 20:02 GMT
#2026
Do players have to agree to what they type /say in game to be listed on TL even if it's coming from justinTV?

--- nm he was banned because of his post to thread about his justinTV stream -- (i think)
sup
tainted muffin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States158 Posts
May 06 2011 20:14 GMT
#2027
On May 07 2011 04:59 Mailing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 04:56 Guvna wrote:
i believe someone else took the pic of Cruncher's stream. Having watched his stream many times, i know he just tries to snipe Idra to make him rage, but doesn't leave the stream on.

Who knows if he did it this time or not (probably people who were watching Cruncher's stream know for sure), but from what i've seen in the past he's never done it, i dont know why he'd start now.

I find this hilarious, and hope him and others do it more often. People only watch Idra because of all of his drama anyways.


They watch him because he is the best zerg that speaks english, and the community is mostly zerg players.


Zerg is the least played race so most of the community can't be zerg.
BloodNinja
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2791 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 20:19:07
May 06 2011 20:16 GMT
#2028
On May 07 2011 05:02 unoriginalname wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 04:56 Guvna wrote:
People only watch Idra because of all of his drama anyways.


people are upset about the delays to the streaming because he's a good player.


The issue with this is that TL has no control over Idra streaming or not. Idra choosing to not stream was done by Idra himself. For refference, when Idra was temp banned for 30 days not so long ago, he continued to stream during the ban.
haffy
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom430 Posts
May 06 2011 20:18 GMT
#2029
On May 07 2011 05:14 tainted muffin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 04:59 Mailing wrote:
On May 07 2011 04:56 Guvna wrote:
i believe someone else took the pic of Cruncher's stream. Having watched his stream many times, i know he just tries to snipe Idra to make him rage, but doesn't leave the stream on.

Who knows if he did it this time or not (probably people who were watching Cruncher's stream know for sure), but from what i've seen in the past he's never done it, i dont know why he'd start now.

I find this hilarious, and hope him and others do it more often. People only watch Idra because of all of his drama anyways.


They watch him because he is the best zerg that speaks english, and the community is mostly zerg players.


Zerg is the least played race so most of the community can't be zerg.


Yes I agree. Also the worlds population is about 50% women 50% men. Therefore 50% of the posters must be women.
tree.hugger
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 20:35:56
May 06 2011 20:22 GMT
#2030
It's really depressing to me to find out that IdrA fans have adopted his perennial whiny attitude and his perpetual claims of being the victim. It's actually pretty unprecedented for an entire fanbase to adopt the distinguishing personality traits of their idol. After all, Bisu fans are no more handsome now than they were a few years ago.


Are there enough people in this thread to look at this rationally? Let's find out, shall we?
On May 07 2011 03:57 Essentia wrote:
Wait so Cruncher posted a screenshot of him having Idra's stream opened while he was playing and yet ppl say that's not enough evidence? Where's the logic in that?

There's clearly a good majority of you who have no idea what you're talking about. For example, this person has clearly not actually looked at the screenshot in question, nor read CrunCher's explanation for his actions. Let's go over this piece by piece.

- IdrA's stream is MUTED in the CrunCher screenshot

Plenty of people have said that CrunCher could easily have turned up the volume to the stream at some other point. This is true. However, he also could've mixed himself a martini during the countdown. Any speculation on what CrunCher could have done is the product of bias. Pure and simple. The only concrete evidence we have that CrunCher was looking at IdrA's stream shows him doing so completely legally.

- CrunCher explained the reason he had IdrA's stream open was that he was attempting to 'snipe' IdrA.

This means something highly specific in this case. It means that CrunCher was attempting to enter the queue for finding games at the exact moment that IdrA did, thereby increasing the chances that they would play each other. There is nothing wrong with this. This is perfectly logical and plausible. Any speculation on other reasons why CrunCher may have been watching IdrA's stream are the product of bias.

- CrunCher's play is not standard, but it's not completely odd either.

Plenty of protoss wall-in with two gateways. Plenty of protoss add more than one cannon, especially if they do not have good scouting information. CrunCher knew that he had done early damage to IdrA by delaying his hatchery for so long. IdrA has become well known recently for all-inning against protoss. Against CrunCher, and against CrunCher's opening, it is extremely reasonable for CrunCher to have played the way he did to be safe.

- IdrA doesn't have good enough perspective to make this call.


We know IdrA doesn't like CrunCher. We know he said he thought CrunCher would stream look before he ever had the slightest shred of evidence to any effect. Throughout the game, he made a self-destructive decision and then ascribed all of CrunCher's actions to his earlier theory. IdrA cannot have made that accusation rationally. He even predicts two gate stalker when instead CrunCher sends out two zealots. IdrA had no perspective.

- TL Mods acted to protect CrunCher/punish IdrA for what he said on stream/ruin it for "The Community"

When this issue was first raised, several staff immediately suspected CrunCher of cheating and suggested that his stream be taken down. As Chill has posted, he sent a pm asking CrunCher for his side of the story. Once CrunCher posted his explanation and pointed out the muted stream in the screenshot, it was determined that his explanation was plausible, and that in the absence of any real proof, no action could fairly be taken against CrunCher. IdrA, meanwhile, was banned for posting an immature and disgusting insult. That's literally all there is to it.

Anyone who says that IdrA has been treated unfairly on TL is so unbelievably wrong it's silly. If IdrA were anything but the best foreign BW player, he would've been banned permanently years ago.

IdrA is perfectly able to keep streaming if he wants to. He's stopped streaming because he's throwing a temper tantrum and wants attention. TL doesn't need IdrA, but apparently he needs TL.


To recap:
- No evidence against CrunCher.
- Only biased conjecture.

TL has a responsibility to be fair to all of its members. This isn't a popularity contest, this is a contest of who can produce proof of what they say. And IdrA and his fanboys have no proof. Reasonable doubt exists.

I really can't understand why this is so hard to figure out.
ModeratorEffOrt, Snow, GuMiho, and Team Liquid
Swineflew
Profile Joined October 2010
United States61 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 20:33:44
May 06 2011 20:25 GMT
#2031
On May 07 2011 05:14 tainted muffin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 04:59 Mailing wrote:
On May 07 2011 04:56 Guvna wrote:
i believe someone else took the pic of Cruncher's stream. Having watched his stream many times, i know he just tries to snipe Idra to make him rage, but doesn't leave the stream on.

Who knows if he did it this time or not (probably people who were watching Cruncher's stream know for sure), but from what i've seen in the past he's never done it, i dont know why he'd start now.

I find this hilarious, and hope him and others do it more often. People only watch Idra because of all of his drama anyways.


They watch him because he is the best zerg that speaks english, and the community is mostly zerg players.


Zerg is the least played race so most of the community can't be zerg.


It might just be me, but I've seen a huge increase in zerg since the first ladder season.
I personally switched from random to zerg, so maybe that makes me a bandwagoner(sp?) but I like the way the game plays as zerg, even if it makes me want to rip my hair out because I'm terrible as zerg.

Edit: I'm personally against stream sniping. It seems like a slippery slope to me. You can use outside sources to manipulate the game, but since it's a "victimless crime" it's not a big deal. Let's say that Player A is super gosu can't be beat, and he hates player B. What if player A stream snipes Player B all the time, and beats him just to make him lose ladder points/make him rage. Does that really seem fair?
numLoCK
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada1416 Posts
May 06 2011 20:26 GMT
#2032
<3 tree.hugger. I can confirm Bisu fandom does not make one more handsome
Idra is definitely a great player I just wish he could avoid acting out and getting himself banned so often. The fact that he won't stream because of this little incident is sad
Drteeth
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Great Britain415 Posts
May 06 2011 20:28 GMT
#2033
Well said Treehugger
Nice cheese ....GG!
Jotoco
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil1342 Posts
May 06 2011 20:30 GMT
#2034
On May 07 2011 05:22 tree.hugger wrote: entire fanbase



No it's not.

Is it so hard to understand that there are several tens of thousands of Idra's fans that:

1 - Didn't post;

2 - Posted several times and didn't even get a warning (like myself).


So, it must not be his entire fanbase. And you're not the first mod to come up with this. This is insulting people for no good reason. If Mods want to hold such high concept of moral and manner and whatever, they should uphold it first.

If this was the first mod to do it, I would simply ignore it, but you're probably the fourth or fifth, including the messages in the TL.BOT logs in the ban thread......
Tracedragon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States948 Posts
May 06 2011 20:32 GMT
#2035
Why don't we as a community conduct further analysis on Cruncher's play and decide whether or not he was cheating? I don't know about you guys, but reading through this thread, there's been quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that Cruncher might have cheated.

1) This post, especially the line "Cruncher said himself that he has streamcheated before", comes to mind:
On May 06 2011 23:09 Crezth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2011 22:39 Drteeth wrote:
On May 06 2011 22:04 ThatGuy89 wrote:
and now his fan club is locked?
why isnt crunchers? hes the one that caused all this fuss by not being able to play the game without cheesing/cheating/being an overall tool


I take it you have actual proof for this statement?


Well, Cruncher said himself that he has streamcheated before, so there's precedent, and then there's this:

[image loading]

I think, if Cruncher did streamcheat, it was very impolite. It's too bad people take advantage of IdrA's short fuse to tease him, and now he's taking it out on the people who watch his stream. A lot could be gained if everyone just manned up.

[...]


2)
On May 07 2011 02:43 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 02:34 Osmoses wrote:
I do love drama. Wish I hadn't missed the game though :/

http://www.justin.tv/eg_idra/b/285221418

Around 30~ minutes in. I just watched it and it's really not bad at all. People are overreacting purely on IdrA's comments rather than what actually went on.

Cruncher's wall is weird, but it's basically a double gateway forge wall for Tal'darim with a Cyc further back, which is what some P FE's with vs Zerg. How the Gateway timing can be considered "fishy" is beyond me, since Cruncher delayed IdrA's hatchery and knows IdrA needs early damage to catch up. Given it was Cruncher, he was probably pooling gas for a Stargate, rather than blinding countering a Roach/Ling all in.

IdrA says, "two Gateways before.. (Cybernetics Core) he's definitely watching." Now go watch Forge FE games from other top Protoss on Tal'darim. In just two minutes I've found VODs of White_ra and others doing the same thing (albeit with a better wall.)

Then again, a very, very, very good Protoss expert did tell me it's suspicious. :x We really would need a replay or Cruncher's VOD to help.


3)
On May 07 2011 04:35 greendestiny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2011 10:05 Ansinjunger wrote:
On May 06 2011 09:35 haylmfao wrote:
On May 06 2011 09:31 H wrote:
On May 06 2011 09:24 Sushbag wrote:
What's the connection between a ban on these forums and then refusing to stream? Clearly it's posturing, but if Idra really cared about the front page exposure he gets on TL he probably wouldn't risk posting at all; this isn't an environment where you can actually say what you want like an adult. It's not like State of the Game. TL can run their site however they want but since they run it like they do, why does anyone care about this forum?


Calling someone a waste of life over a computer game is not something an adult does. I'm sorry you think it is.

So cheating in ladder is okay? It's just a computer game after all isn't it?
What about cheating in a tournament? Still a computer game.
Hell, playing computer games is ABSOLUTELY not something an adult does, why does this site even exist? We should all quit SC2 and go do something useful with our lives!


The Blizzard Ladder and JustinTV are not under the jurisdiction of TeamLiquid. Cruncher didn't say anything in his post to get banned, unless there was something nasty before it was edited, of which I am unaware.

It cannot be proved that Cruncher cheated by listening/watching to Idra's stream. There is obviously evidence that would support that accusation, but nothing concrete. He provided in the aforementioned post of his some sound reasoning for expecting an all-in. Idra also provided similar reasoning when he said [I'm just gonna all-in since his Nexus is up before my hatchery]. If that's such a logical decision for Idra, it's equally logical for Cruncher to expect it. Add the precedent set recently by aggressive zergs such as Losira and Idra himself.
(snip)

Jesus, dude, this isn't a murder trial. But if it were, what you're saying would be akin to a lawyer saying: "Look, my client didn't commit this murder. After all, there are no pictures of him holding the knife and stabbing the victim." That's would be such a weak argument. Don't you agree?

Strictly speaking, your post contains what is called argumentum ad ignorantiam - "the fallacy that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false or that it is false simply because it has not been proved true."
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/ignorance.html

[...]

So when Idra says
Show nested quote +
Given that he's a fa**it, he's probably listening to this stream.

and
Show nested quote +
Yeah, he's listening. You can at least try and hide it.

during his game vs Cruncher, you can say 'Hmm, Idra so far knew exactly the thought process of his opponents and when Cruncher just blindly countered his build, there was something fishy and he called him out on it".

[...]


And in general I agree with the sentiments of this post:
On May 06 2011 20:46 Cuddle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2011 20:21 KwarK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On May 06 2011 20:19 Leavzou wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2011 20:13 Loooui wrote:
On May 06 2011 20:04 Leavzou wrote:
On May 06 2011 19:58 Loooui wrote:
On May 06 2011 19:34 Leavzou wrote:
On May 06 2011 19:14 Nemara wrote:
People really should stop to be hypocritical. Cruncher did not ever do this response, idra does not all in every game vs FFE, he said that.

If you do that opening, see zerg hasnt taken his expand yet whilst yours are done, and you dont prepare against a roach ling all in, you're bad and you'll lose 90% of your games.


Bad mindset.

Because if the zerg saw that you did not scout, he can just expand and you are behind.


That is one way to think about it, but even though Cruncher might not have scouted it he probably based his decision on previous games where idra all in after a late natural expansion when the protoss took fast nexus. Sure cruncher took a risk but this game is full of risks.

To call Cruncher a cheater based on that he countered idras all in is ridicolous and makes no sense at all. You cannot say he cheated without any proof, and saying "his counter was to strong without scouting!" dosn´t count as proof. You know, there are things called game sense and luck in this game too. Every decision dosn´t have to be based on scouting.

This new thing calling people to left and right "cheater!" must stop. Unless you have real proof you should not speak of cheating, it is devastating for the whole starcraft-scene.


I can't share the proof, but I know he cheated, I saw the account of Cruncher in the list of the players during the match.

I did not take a SS, so I can't share it.

I don't call someone a cheater if I don't have a proof.


List of players in chat?!

The thought that someone smurfed his nickname occured to you?

And even if it was him he could have muted the sounds when he realised he met idra, etc. It is hard to call it real evidence for cheating. I myself have been laddering and had a good players stream up at same time, and then i faced him in ranked. I usually just mute it and go back to playing since it is pretty fun to read the chat after the game.


Sometimes it's just ridiculous to defend the the opposite of the evidence. Idra hate cruncher, cruncher hate idra, they both want to humiliate each other, and cruncher had the best opportunity to do it. He always cheese idra, because he know he can't win in a macro game. This time he could humiliate him in a "standard" way just by listening the stream, why should he does not do it ?

Let's be honnest guys.

It's actually really common to just casually watch the stream while waiting for a player and then mute it when they're ready. I do it in brood war fairly often. It's not that difficult to believe.


I use a knife in the kitchen fairly regularly, nothing strange about it. But if my cheating wife gets mysteriously stabbed to death and I get caught standing over the body, knife in hand, I'm gonna get arrested. Whether or not I get sentenced depends on the evidence and how many well paid lawyers i can afford.

I'm not saying the evidence is overwhelming here, I'm just saying...9 times out of 10 the husband with the motive did it, even if the knife he was holding wasn't the murder weapon.



So far, Cruncher's only response to this has been:
On May 06 2011 07:10 CrunCher wrote:
lol. idra fanboys so uspet i sniped idra. watch my stream next time

cant accept a loss





about the 'cheating':

sniping=waiting till he searches to search

http://puu.sh/1Tpw

as you can see the sound is muted and the guy ss'd my stream(live)

idra all-ins half the games in ipl, and i didnt see him expand. and you make 2 gateways so you block off faster, mostly after nexus first (and i dropped my 2nd gate before he dropped his roach warren). and 2 cannons when you nexus first is cheating? (watch gsl/ipl/nasl, ex- anypro makes 3 cannons and zealot/sentry/stalker before tech)


Are there any VODs from Cruncher's PoV of the Cruncher vs IdrA game that show his own thought process and why he played so weirdly? Or does Cruncher have some other defense in regards to how he didn't cheat?
Do the impossible, see the invisible. Row, row, fight the power!
BloodNinja
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2791 Posts
May 06 2011 20:36 GMT
#2036
@Trace

I dont have time but your #1 is very flawed. That was a allegation thrown out by a random user with nothing to back it up. He has provided zero evidence of this statement being true.

In addition I would recommend you read Tree.Hugger's post two above you. It provides some good analysis right there.
{ToT}ColmA
Profile Joined November 2007
Japan3260 Posts
May 06 2011 20:37 GMT
#2037
i actually enjoyed the bit i saw yesterday (evening for me) where he commented his play and also the opponents, sad that he wont do it in the near future

on a sidenote, people should relax
The only virgins in kpop left are the fans
TheRhox
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada868 Posts
May 06 2011 20:40 GMT
#2038
Trace, when did cruncher post that he admits to stream cheating? can you show us the link please?
hicks91
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom50 Posts
May 06 2011 20:41 GMT
#2039
Oh wow drama / whatever

Just dropping you a line idra (if you read this) that your stream has really helped me up my game, watching you play (and now with you telling the logic behind your moves) i've gone from gold to the cusp of diamond
so thanks idra!
BroOd
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Austin10833 Posts
May 06 2011 20:41 GMT
#2040
On May 07 2011 05:30 Jotoco wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 05:22 tree.hugger wrote: entire fanbase



No it's not.

Is it so hard to understand that there are several tens of thousands of Idra's fans that:

1 - Didn't post;

2 - Posted several times and didn't even get a warning (like myself).


So, it must not be his entire fanbase. And you're not the first mod to come up with this. This is insulting people for no good reason. If Mods want to hold such high concept of moral and manner and whatever, they should uphold it first.

If this was the first mod to do it, I would simply ignore it, but you're probably the fourth or fifth, including the messages in the TL.BOT logs in the ban thread......

That's a fair distinction to make. With the overwhelming response in this situation, it's easy to forget that there are plenty of reasonable, responsible idra fans who don't like or care about the antics and simply watch him because he's a very good player. I, myself, have found myself frustrated with "idra fans" when I should just be frustrated with the individual users who've chosen to turn this situation into a shitstorm. (it should be noted that tree's use of "entire" in that instance was probably hyperbolic)

I'm going to speak for myself here when I say that banning isn't fun (usually). There's no thrill or adrenaline rush or orgasm. Most of the time, it's just an increasingly detached sigh of disappointment. I'd much prefer to not have any reason to ever ban anyone. Unfortunately, that's not a feasible reality. What you should take from this is that we're not tyrants, or power-hungry or crazed with ban-madness. We're just normal people trying to uphold the standards of something that took a long time and a lot of hard work to build.
ModeratorSIRL and JLIG.
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