TSL4 Critique

On August 06 2012 14:36 kochanfe wrote:
I agree, they should get someone good like Adebisi to observe...

On August 06 2012 15:08 Yamulo wrote:

If hotbid is the one observing, which I think he is, they already have an observer who is better than Adebisi. He just might be making mistakes at the moment, which everyone does, but hotbid is a phenomenal observer.

On August 06 2012 16:51 Proxan wrote:


I assume it's one of the two casters observing since it's a replay and not a live game.

On August 06 2012 15:08 Yamulo wrote:

If hotbid is the one observing, which I think he is, they already have an observer who is better than Adebisi. He just might be making mistakes at the moment, which everyone does, but hotbid is a phenomenal observer.

On August 06 2012 11:09 X3GoldDot wrote:
looking at main bases during late game are important to spot how many gateway/barracks or lategame tech like fleet beacon etc.....

On August 06 2012 14:40 svefnleysi wrote:
I didn't catch much of today's broadcast, but I've actually been admiring the TSL observing.

On August 06 2012 16:55 RaiKageRyu wrote:


It's not. Never has been.

On August 07 2012 01:28 TheFrankOne wrote:



I think it has been for the Ro32, unlike before. The casters have said things like "...if you look over at..." and named the other caster as if telling them to move the observer's screen over to whatever they are talking about. I would like confirmation on this one way or the other. It has been a growing suspicion as the observing feels way different than it did before to me.

On August 07 2012 01:10 Roachu wrote:
Oh and one last thing I want to say, something I'm well aware is a subjective matter but please turn up the volume of the ingame-music a bit. To me this makes the games feel more "atmospheric" and furthers the spectator-sport image. I think its a good way to "break the silence" during the times when nothing interesting goes on, rather than forcing the commentators to constantly talk every second. This is just my opinion (and so far GSL are the only one who satisfies my picky taste ), I'm sure you've thought about this kinda stuff already.

I know the point of this thread was the observing but given the title I thought it was a good place to mention it.

On August 12 2012 01:38 tschecko wrote:
often the observer sees things the casters dont. sometimes its the other way round.

On August 14 2012 04:40 Advocado wrote:
Skype distortion/lag when apollo talks doing the stream. I know this is out of your hands, but its kinda messing with the cast.

On August 20 2012 20:11 Goosestep wrote:
It´s soooo boring this year... to many koreans ffs...

On August 21 2012 00:28 Quintall wrote:


Well, i believe it wont make u happy that all the KESPA pros are probably joining soon, so less foreigner more korean :D

On August 21 2012 15:21 True_Spike wrote:
I do believe this is the worst TSL so far. The production value has been nothing special, koreans lack personality, caster duos don't work as well as expected, I don't feel any hype and it seems the TL.net itself focuses more on things it can sell than the actual tournament at hand (things like the tsl+, tsl merchandise). The TSL website has been a total failure as well. Despite being played online (no venue, no costs of any kind whatsoever other than paying the casters) the prizes are relatively low (and this time we have ads, tsl merchandise, tsl+, a lot of ways for the tl.net to get money back).

All in all, whomever was in charge of this TSL has done a poor job, in my opinion. It's nice that we can have this tournament, but so far it has been *completely* overshadowed by competition and all the things we have come to associate with the TSL are nowhere to be found this time around. I don't think I'll even tune in to watch the rest of the games, I simply do not care anymore, I'm afraid.

On August 22 2012 01:27 101998 wrote:
I would also say Chill is an odd caster to be paired with the giants in the SC2 world. It is a bit like if a sports talk radio host sat down next to a top sports commentator, the talk show host isn’t fucking anything up but there is an experience and skill gap between the two that makes the broadcast feel clunky. I get that he has always casted TSL, but you don’t get points for being nice guys and hiring your buddy because you have always hired him - You get points for making the hard decisions and putting on the best possible show regardless of tradition.

On August 23 2012 00:35 Zion9 wrote:
I share the same opinion as those who think TSL4 is not as good as TSL3...
Personally I don't care about second hand koreans at all. If it would be some bigger names from the Korean scene I might watch it . And ofcourse there is less interest due to the lack of foreigners...Last season was really special considering basically it was the first time ever foreigners met koreans, and not any kind of Koreans....Boxer, Nada, Fruitdealer, MC and so on...
I'm really sorry to say this but I'm dissapointed. Its my personal opinion not a global one, so don't missunderstand me, I even bought TSL+ (to mention here, I have a 100/100 mb connection, but in 1080 and 1080+ stream lags so I bought TSL+ for nothing) .
Hopefully next season will be much better

On August 22 2012 01:27 101998 wrote:
It has been touched on, but the all qualifier nature of this tournament leads to zero hype for me. I remember for TSL3 every week I was excited because the biggest names were playing or someone who had taken down a big name was playing. That was the magic of Thorzain, he went through Fruitdealer, Tyler and MC – by the time he hit the semis everyone knew he was a bad ass. All the players left in TSL now feel so random I am not even sure if I am going to watch or not (barely watched RO8). None of these players have the personality that make players like Stephano, MC or MKP popular and none of these players have mind blowing skill that make low personality Koreans like MVP or Taeja interesting. (I get that Taeja lost and that is out of their control, but having 3-4 interesting players in a 32 man lineup is something that could have been controlled)

The other thing I would touch on is the production value. In game is fine for me, but the pregame intro and theme feels amateurish and in this type of event the intro dictates a surprisingly large president for the pacing of the broadcast. The song sounds like something out of a video game soundtrack in the early 2000s rather than a professional piece of music. I hate to say it after seeing that long post about how hard the dude who made the song worked, but it is what it is. I remember getting so many of my friends into SC2 with TSL3 videos because the intros made the players look like badasses. It gave a lot of soul to the people that are invisible in an online tournament, it made them feel real. The animated stuff this time around feels try-hard and (graphically) way too busy compared to Glider’s smooth simplistic portraits.

I would also say Chill is an odd caster to be paired with the giants in the SC2 world. It is a bit like if a sports talk radio host sat down next to a top sports commentator, the talk show host isn’t fucking anything up but there is an experience and skill gap between the two that makes the broadcast feel clunky. I get that he has always casted TSL, but you don’t get points for being nice guys and hiring your buddy because you have always hired him - You get points for making the hard decisions and putting on the best possible show regardless of tradition.

Bottom line is, I watched TSL3 because I enjoyed myself every broadcast. I am not watching TSL4 because the production feels weak and I feel like there are better things to do with my time.

On August 23 2012 02:59 Divinek wrote:


I agree with everything said here. I thought it was just me being more out of touch with sc2 now (used to watch every major tourney last year) and now all I watch is GSL (maybe too much going on now? dunno). But I felt like this TSL is really lame, interesting to see this is a more common opinion than I had imagined. Don't feel any hype at all

On August 26 2012 22:15 purgerinho wrote:
it is not organizers fault that there is no stephano or other big names.. they had 10 chances to get into the tournament but they wasn't interested enough

my critiques are: 1. where are results? why there is no link on resultas in this part of forum but there is a R&S of qualifiers?

i was on vacation for three weeks, without normal connection so i'm completely out of everything and it would be great just to see results. But i have to look for it at liquipedia etc.

On August 26 2012 23:10 Plexa wrote:

http://www.teamliquidstarleague.com/
Just select the round you want results up to.

On September 02 2012 19:20 7mk wrote:
god, so much bitching here...
I fully agree that TSL4 doesnt feel as epic as TSL3, but part of that is just bad luck.
So many complaints about the qualifying system, but it is by far the fairest system there is... . People complain about big stars lacking, and since some tournament organizers are scared of that they do rely heavily on invites, all but IEM, but if you want a fair system that rewards results, rather than what a player has done half a year ago, then invites just isnt the way.
Last time there were only invites for Korea, now imagine if it had been invite only for EU as well, would anyone have given a damn about Thorzain?

One reason there's less hype is that theres just so many freakin tournaments going on, and personally, yeah I kinda did hope that this time the prize pool would be bigger
To end up with koreans that arent really fan favourites is just a bit unlucky, but these players damn sure deserve to be where they are.

Will esports survive in the western world? Look how much qq'ing there is in a hardcore site dedicated to starcraft about boring players.

On September 08 2012 21:19 Shikyo wrote:
Oh, a critique thread?

Well, I'd just like to say that I've been completely uninterested in TSL4 for a very long time now. I'd attribute that to the inclusion of Korean players. I loved all 3 TSLs before it, but this one I just haven't felt like watching after the Ro16 like, at all(And I'm not sure if I'll feel like watching the finals either).

Apart from that, Chill should be casting every single game.

On September 05 2012 05:50 matiK23 wrote:
Which brings the question: Will esports survive in the western world? Look how much qq'ing there is in a hardcore site dedicated to starcraft about boring players. Let's face it. The amount of foreigners are dwindling because they can't keep up and gradually becoming irrelevant. And the casual watchers, which probably make up the mass of viewers, want to watch SC strictly for their oh-so-fun foreigners because of their "personalities" which IMO is overrated and are as equally as boring as the Koreans, if not more boring. At least when you watch Koreans playing in Korean events, they're more comfortable with being themselves.

On September 09 2012 01:18 Waxangel wrote:
we hipster

On September 09 2012 14:39 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I want to bring this up.
The reason why TSL4 felt weak was because the players that made it to the later rounds lack exposure.

A lot of us don't even know who Sting is.

Written Interviews are not going to cut it anymore.
Since this is already an online tournament, and we don't get to see much of the players anyway...

Suggestion:
Try using Skype to interview the players.
Fans need to see the competitor's faces, see their emotions, see their reaction to winning.

Without such, the tournament lacks the depth it strives to have.
And the players lack the coverage they deserve.

On September 09 2012 23:07 Doubting wrote:

this won't help. Nobody will admit it but people just wanna watch foreigners. Its stupid but people don't care how good the players all. They just wanna see mediocre foreigners like Goody and Nony somehow winning.

On August 21 2012 10:26 TriZen wrote:
This may just be me, but this TSL has been nothing (for me!) compared to the last one.

I wasn't hyped, I still am not.. I don't look forward to the TSL every weekend like I previously did. Personally, for me, this is because of the lack of certain foreigners.. Idra.. etc.. They didn't earn their place! I get that

I just think a lot of viewers have the mentality that I do, just sharing the reason I am not enjoying this TSL. I can't get myself hyped for Koreans in the TSL, I always felt TSL was special but this time it feels like "another tournament" full of Koreans.

I know that my view is mine alone, and maybe 99$% of the community disagree with me and I hope thats so! The people playing rightfully earnt their spots

On September 10 2012 00:59 Zorkmid wrote:


I don't think this is true. I want to see see the best of the best GSL players. If they make an attempt to speak english, all the better. I think Neo brings up something important. I knew very little about any of the 4 final players, and I think that TL did a poor job of introducing us to them.

On September 10 2012 03:15 shell wrote:
I bought the ticket for this TSL, but i don't think i even saw 10 games.. I missed the final and with so many daily content i don't think i will catch the games i missed.

It was really lackluster, just another tournament full of koreans.. BW TSL meant something, the last TSL also had some meaning.. this one sucked imo!

More foreigners and less koreans that's what i say! Help improve the foreign community!

They now have 2 televised team leagues (PL + GSTL) and two televised leagues (GSL + OSL) then they have authobirths for every foreign tournament!

What will set a tournament apart from the rest will be more foreigners ! Atleast for me..

BTW i get my korean fix with GSL (always buy tickets), i don't need to be reminded they are the best, thank you! I just think that in order for us to evolve and since it's impossible to have a USA/euro televised league, we better have our own tournaments so that people have a reason to try.. instead of never getting any prize money!

On September 10 2012 04:24 shell wrote:


Foreigners can't play? lol.. so you only watch the Yankees, Lakers/heat/Thunder.. you only watch the best? Why even have NCAA for instance? Let's just end all the college leagues of every sport, lets ban all nations for the olympics and go with the best China vs USA vs Russia, just 3 is enought..

Stupid mentality

On September 10 2012 03:21 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I'm so appalled by the amount of racism in this thread.
Criticizing a tournament just because people of certain ethnicity are in it is so pathetic.

On September 10 2012 03:49 magnaflow wrote:



The problem is even if they only invited two Korean players, and rest foreign, we would still see those 2 Koreans in the final. And if you don't invite Koreans at all, then you get shit games cause foreigners can't play

On September 10 2012 07:36 Doubting wrote:
They should just make a foreigner only tournament to please all the idiots who won't watch great Starcraft because there are no white players.

On September 12 2012 12:25 HULKAMANIA wrote:

I realize that you're new to the site, but this is hilarious. The origins of the TSL (i.e. TSL1 and TSL2) were exactly what you're describing. They were foreigner only tournaments, and they were beloved by the scene. (I don't want to come down on one side of the Korean/No-Korean debate right now, but it's funny to me that you're mocking the very history of the tournament you're trying to defend.)

On September 15 2012 00:53 never_Nal wrote:
I gota say this TSL4 was good, but TSL1 TSL2, had a way better reception overall, honestly I think TL went into TSL4 too fast, and the comunity couldn't make a lot of hype like the previous tournamnets , you guys should give more time to the users to get hyped and know the players we are going to watch

On September 15 2012 21:58 Goosestep wrote:
one word: bad !

On September 15 2012 08:59 ChromeBallz wrote:
The one thing that bothered me throughout the entire TSL4 was the choppy streaming. Something tells me that whoever was streaming didn't have the proper rig/upload to stream...

No other stream was that bad. At one point in the RO16 the TSL streamer said "twitch is having problems" after the stream crashed, though after checking about 5-6 other (populated) streams everything seemed to work perfectly. That said, every stream on Twitch worked perfectly smooth except the TSL4 one, it seems incredibly random to me that i was the only one having problems (as some people claimed).

Could the TSL people please test the rig and connection they want to use a while beforehand?

On September 16 2012 07:20 HULKAMANIA wrote:


Which incidentally is also the word I'd choose to describe your post history. (The one I'd guess for most predictive of your career on this site? Ephemeral.)

I really don't mind people offering legitimate, well-intentioned criticism of the TSL, even if they are two- or three-month members. If you think it's alright to whine in a content-free, one-liner though... grow up. That's some childish shit.

On September 19 2012 13:23 AngelOvUriel wrote:
No big stage for the finals?

On September 21 2012 00:28 Corsica wrote:

nope just replays...

On topic: I've been (and community) so spoiled by tournaments like DH, GSL that watching just replays casted via skype just doesnt cut it. I want to see the players, casters being in suites, hype, people screaming, If TSL5 will continue the same I will expect about 20,000 to watch finals... what was it on tsl3 finals 50k? and that was Live replays... TSL really needs to step up their game if they want to be at the top, otherwise just keep casting from replays, like Zotac, playhem etc.

On September 20 2012 23:39 Titan999 wrote:


I love your use of the word, Ephemeral. This is the exact reason why i spend time on this site.