We have re-evaluated the TSL4 map pool based off the information we gathered from the TSL4 Qualifiers. We observed that Korhal Compound received next to no playtime during the qualifiers. Moreover, around the start of the qualifiers Blizzard removed Korhal Compound from the ladder. Without ladder support and minimal playtime during the qualifiers it makes no sense to continue using the map. Thus, Korhal Compound has been removed from the TSL4 map pool.
It has also been brought to our attention that TSL4 Metropolis also lacks the neutral depot at the ramp. This has been fixed and all servers should have the correct version uploaded.
We have decided that TSL4 will move forward with a six map pool - no seventh map will be added. Thus the map pool for TSL4 will be:
TSL4 Antiga Shipyard
TSL4 Cloud Kingdom
TSL4 Daybreak
TSL4 Entombed Valley
TSL4 Metropolis
TSL4 Ohana
Presently, six map pools are not commonly used for best of five and seven matches. As such the map selection system for TSL4 is unique. TSL4 will use the following map selection system:
For Best of Five Series Players will veto one map each. The remaining four maps will be randomly ordered 1 to 4, with the first map being repeated as the final map. If one player does not submit vetoes in on time, or both players select the same map, all five remaining maps will be used.
For Best of Seven Series Players will veto two maps each. The first map of the series will be randomly chosen from the remaining two maps. The remaining five maps will be randomly ordered 2-6. The first map of the series will be used again as the last map. The same map is vetoed by both players or one player does not submit vetoes in on time, the fist map of the series is randomly chosen from the remaining maps.
The player who is seeded lower will get the first choice in vetoing. To illustrate how this works, here are a few example, using Thorzain and Naniwa as our theoretical players, with Thorzain being seeded higher than Naniwa.
For Best of Five Series (no overlap) Naniwa vetoes Ohana, Thorzain vetoes Cloud Kingdom. TSL4 admins randomly order the remaining maps, and get the following order: 1) Antiga Shipyard 2) Metropolis 3) Daybreak 4) Entombed Valley 5) Antinga Shipyard
For Best of Five Series (with overlap) Naniwa vetoes Metropolis, Thorzain also vetoes Metropolis. TSL4 admins randomly order the remaining maps, and get the following order: 1) Daybreak 2) Cloud Kingdom 3) Antiga Shipyard 4) Ohana 5) Entombed Valley
For Best of Seven Series Naniwa vetoes Antiga Shipyard and Ohana, Thorzain vetoes Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak. TSL4 admins randomly choose Entombed Valley to be the repeated map, and randomly decide the following order: 1) Entombed Valley 2) Cloud Kingdom 3) Ohana 4) Metropolis 5) Daybreak 6) Antiga Shipyard 7) Entombed Valley
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On July 25 2012 14:57 Hoodlum wrote: I like the maps, but I'm curious as to how they are chosen at random... Is it just admins choice? What if he really likes Naniwa? <3
Random.org most likely (else something equivalent)
This seems realy stupid tbh. You veto a map and then if u lose first map you could be playing on that map next? Repeating maps in BO5 and BO7 only makes the game boring and not fun to watch. What's the probelm with having more maps in the pool? are all other maps so bad?
On July 25 2012 17:49 oikia wrote: This seems realy stupid tbh. You veto a map and then if u lose first map you could be playing on that map next? Repeating maps in BO5 and BO7 only makes the game boring and not fun to watch. What's the probelm with having more maps in the pool? are all other maps so bad?
Only the first and last maps could be repeated. If you've only ever followed SC2 I understand that this might be a bit weird, but this was (and still is) commonplace in brood war and actually the repeated map makes for really interesting (and often memorable) matches.
I guess what u say makes sense and it's just me that has a problem with it and i would like to see more maps because watching all the same maps for such a long time beeing played over and over again makes it kinda boring for me.
On July 25 2012 18:49 oikia wrote: I guess what u say makes sense and it's just me that has a problem with it and i would like to see more maps because watching all the same maps for such a long time beeing played over and over again makes it kinda boring for me.
Honestly the reason we don't see many new maps is that TSL likes to restrict itself to maps that are on the ladder which means that they can be practiced by all players without a lot of hassle. Having said that there is a problem with the ladder pool containing bad maps and it not being updated often enough. Honestly every season should take out two maps and add in two new, good maps.
On July 25 2012 14:57 Hoodlum wrote: I like the maps, but I'm curious as to how they are chosen at random... Is it just admins choice? What if he really likes Naniwa? <3
Random.org most likely (else something equivalent)
n1 =). Was wondering about the method while reading. I have to say that I never found an issue with the randomness of random.org when I used it to select me series to watch.
I'm actually a bit curious, and I'm wondering if anyone could give an explanation: Are there arguments for different procedures of map selection? I suppose the most common map-selection procedure that's not the one TSL4 is where the loser picks the next map to play on. Are there substantial pros and cons to the two ways?
(Like, obviously TSL4 can make a nice graphic before the match listing out the order of maps with this way. They did that also in TSL3. But I'm wondering does it change anything from a player's perspective)
I like it :D Less maps in the pool = more focused preparation from the players = better games.
On July 25 2012 22:35 uikos wrote: I'm actually a bit curious, and I'm wondering if anyone could give an explanation: Are there arguments for different procedures of map selection? I suppose the most common map-selection procedure that's not the one TSL4 is where the loser picks the next map to play on. Are there substantial pros and cons to the two ways?
(Like, obviously TSL4 can make a nice graphic before the match listing out the order of maps with this way. They did that also in TSL3. But I'm wondering does it change anything from a player's perspective)
Knowing the map order in advance allows the player to plan and prepare map-specific strategies in a much more in-depth manner than with loser's pick, where they can not be certain of which maps are going to be played and dont know the order in which the maps are going to be played.
Loser's pick gives an advantage to the loser (duh.) and should therefore increase the probability of series going to the ace match.
In short : fixed maps = a lot more mind games, loser's pick = slightly more games.
I feel that TSL4 came at a kind of odd time between GSL seasons in terms of introducing new maps. Atlantis and WW aren't the most highly rated maps, and Muspelheim is getting pretty limited play in the GSTL as well. GSL is really the only org out there that actively tries to set the standard for official tournament maps, and if they can't come through with good new maps, every other org is put in a tough spot. I guess TSL could have tried to introduce a new map of their own according, but after weighting the benefits and drawbacks, playing it safe seems to have been the decision in the end.
Antiga shipyard is a very terran favored map, I have a hard time understanding why it is still used in tournament play. Other than that particular map it looks good.
Thanks for the thorough explanation. I'm definitely a fan of going with a smaller map pool, and using the same map for first and last sets is a nice touch, too.
Why does every tournament have to make their own version of the maps and put their name in front of it? Can't there be one standard version for each map that is used in every tournament? It is very annoying to download the same map 10 times to play the right version or just to view a replay.
On July 26 2012 07:59 K_Dilkington wrote: Antiga shipyard is a very terran favored map, I have a hard time understanding why it is still used in tournament play. Other than that particular map it looks good.
check recent stats, antiga shipyard is not really terran favoured. worst maps here are entombed and metro i feel
Does the higher seed get to see the veto of the lower seed? If so, why would he ever veto the same map? If not, why bother having one person veto first?
On July 25 2012 17:49 oikia wrote: This seems realy stupid tbh. You veto a map and then if u lose first map you could be playing on that map next? Repeating maps in BO5 and BO7 only makes the game boring and not fun to watch. What's the probelm with having more maps in the pool? are all other maps so bad?
Only the first and last maps could be repeated. If you've only ever followed SC2 I understand that this might be a bit weird, but this was (and still is) commonplace in brood war and actually the repeated map makes for really interesting (and often memorable) matches.
It's a pity that Korhal was finally voted out. I still use it for practise in costum games and hoped with TSL4 it would become more pupular again, and maybe come back to the ladder. Why not cutting Antiga instead? Antiga getting old nowadays ans as its cross spawns only - replacig with a 2 player map wouldn't be too bad. Just wanted to menton my own opinion, but I have no doubt TSL4 will still be awesome .
On July 26 2012 09:12 jeeneeus wrote: Does the higher seed get to see the veto of the lower seed? If so, why would he ever veto the same map? If not, why bother having one person veto first?
Yeah, that was a bit strange to me as well. When they allow for overlapping veto's then there is no sense in having one player veto before the other one.
On July 26 2012 10:01 Aenur wrote: It's a pity that Korhal was finally voted out. I still use it for practise in costum games and hoped with TSL4 it would become more pupular again, and maybe come back to the ladder. Why not cutting Antiga instead? Antiga getting old nowadays ans as its cross spawns only - replacig with a 2 player map wouldn't be too bad. Just wanted to menton my own opinion, but I have no doubt TSL4 will still be awesome .
Since vetos are done a week in advance of the series it creates a lot less headaches for our admins to get things done if its done this way.
I don't know if I'm gonna like this. In my opinion, repeated maps is one thing that, while it may've worked beautifully in BW, it doesn't work quite as well, as I fear we'll see the same type of games over and over again.
Plus, if you had to remove one map, then you should rather take Antiga Shipyard then Khoral Compound.
On July 27 2012 13:15 WindWolf wrote: I don't know if I'm gonna like this. In my opinion, repeated maps is one thing that, while it may've worked beautifully in BW, it doesn't work quite as well, as I fear we'll see the same type of games over and over again.
the psychological aspects of repeating a map in a series is what makes it awesome
besides, if you're worried about seeing the same sorts of games repeatedly, i'd be more concerned about maps in general becoming far too homogenous, any time anything mildly quirky is tried it gets shot down for whatever reason, usually people overstating balance issues - let's patch out varying distances between bases on antiga/metal, let's patch out the island expansions on metropolis, let's patch out gold bases everywhere, can't possibly make a 3 player map that works. show someone that's only ever played SC2 outsider and their head would likely explode
On July 26 2012 04:11 Waxangel wrote: I feel that TSL4 came at a kind of odd time between GSL seasons in terms of introducing new maps. Atlantis and WW aren't the most highly rated maps, and Muspelheim is getting pretty limited play in the GSTL as well. GSL is really the only org out there that actively tries to set the standard for official tournament maps, and if they can't come through with good new maps, every other org is put in a tough spot. I guess TSL could have tried to introduce a new map of their own according, but after weighting the benefits and drawbacks, playing it safe seems to have been the decision in the end.
I think it really all depends on how often each tournament is held. GOM TV consistently holds the GSL every 2 months. Even if they manage to mess up the map pool 1 time around they still have 5 (4?) more times that year to get it right. The last TSL hasn't happened in over a year. It's better to play it safe with the map pool than risking the tournament integrity that comes with Team Liquid. I personally love seeing new maps, new units, new whatever within the game, but I can understand why they limited the playing field instead of taking chances with newer maps.
On a side note, I like the veto system. : ) I don't think they could have come up with a better one.
On July 29 2012 00:11 Paragleiber wrote: I really dislike repeating maps when there is no need to, so I wish they would have come up with something else for the best of 5 matches at least. :/
Repeating maps is one of the greatest things to happen to SC/SC2. You just don't realize it yet.
It's a shame that TSL4 couldn't highlight some new ESV maps but I suppose it's for the best. Decent map pool, no complaints (so I guess that's the best response you could ask for!)
EPT
