EPTAllow Nongmin in TSL2 - Page 5
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:30 Hapahauli wrote: So do the top ranked foreigners and Day9's stream. I mean seriously? You said that the commentary on TL.net is a lot more detailed than the MBC/OGN commentary, which is a baseless opinion, and arguably false, since you have some of the former best players in the world like Ra and Kingdom (and in the past other greats like TheMarine) commentating. Let me also state that I'm in no way disparaging great commentators like Day[9], who really provides quality analysis and insight. However, I just think its presumptuous in the extreme to assume that they are better than the Korean commentators. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:09 RyanS wrote: This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above. He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in. Idra lives in the CJ house and practices with a professional team. He has a coach that not only freaking speaks english but pays him extra attention. You're right, it's not the same situation... IDRA has WAY more of an advantage than Nongmin does. How you can even think otherwise is an astounding. My god you just look at the fact that he's korean and that's that. Amazing. | ||
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MooCow
1434 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:30 Jyvblamo wrote: Well, banning him from the TSL is analogous to saying "Nope, sorry, you're not part of the foreign community". Why should he want to provide a service to a community that shuns him? Agreed with this, if he's trying to be a part of the foreign community by streaming quality games and such, then he gets banned from playing a tournament with foreigners he should feel really pissed. Saying we don't want him as part of the community. | ||
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jeddus
United States832 Posts
He is someone who actively participates in this community, and should be an invited Korean player, regardless of where he lives. It spices things up in the tournament. He may not even qualify. But it would be cool if he had a shot. Koreans should be brought in by invitation. | ||
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okum
France5779 Posts
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nicoaldo
Argentina939 Posts
The reasons why foreigners make "foreigner tournaments" (in my opinion) are 1)Koreans have their own tournaments at a much higher lvl, 2) it´s unfair to compete with people that plays SC as a job and live in a eSports-supporting environment; maybe 3) Lag issues. He lives and studies in the US, and doesn´t have 1) 2) nor 3), and on top of that, he streams for a 90% foreigner comunity, and he's in his right if he decides to stop doing it after this. I find more reasons to deny participation to ret and idrA than to nongmin (i want ret and idra to play this too, not saying that they shouldn´t play). | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:33 Jyvblamo wrote: You said that the commentary on TL.net is a lot more detailed than the MBC/OGN commentary, which is a baseless opinion, and arguably false, since you have some of the former best players in the world like Ra and Kingdom (and in the past other greats like TheMarine) commentating. This is also arguably false and an appeal to authority. You are assuming that: A) because they are former starcraft players, they have a sublime understanding of the modern game. B) they can effectively communicate the entirety of their knowledge to a general TV audience without overwhelming them and thus bringing down ratings. C) they are paid, not because they are good TV personalities, but completely based on starcraft knowledge. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
The only concerns I could think of not rooted in racism... would be along the lines of if letting him in would open a floodgate - it won't, most koreans know nothing and care nothing about the foreign scene, or that within a month in Korea his skills would skyrocket past every single foreign player, to the point where he's unbeatable. That's extremely unlikely, it didn't happen for Idra, it hasn't happened for Ret. He's also been gone from Korea for four years. Consider the difference in skill between players of 4 years ago and today, I mean, Boxer just lost games to White-Ra and G5. He'll even answer random questions about builds if he drops into OP IRC. | ||
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Cowazon
Canada58 Posts
If the rule applies to just people of Korean descent, why is it there in the first place? No matter how you look at it, there is no logical reason to exclude someone from this tournament just because they were born in a different country. Treating someone differently based solely on their nationality is nothing more than racism... If the rule is there to prevent a progamer from playing in it and smashing everyone due to their superior training, then why is Idra allowed in it in the first place? Idra has spent more time in Korea recently than Nongmin. While being on Korean ground doesn't magically turn you into a better Starcraft player, living in the CJ house and practicing with other people on pro teams sure does. When it comes down to it, Idra is a progamer and Nongmin isn't. Feel free to type in "Idra" and "Nongmin", TLPD-ize your post, and see the result if you don't believe that. In the far more likely case that the original rule applies to professional training instead of ethnic background, no matter how many times people say that "a rule is a rule", the rule is being bent for Idra. If we overlook the split second someone was born, and consider culture, comparing Idra and Nongmin makes this issue seem even more ridiculous. Idra left the US to move to Korea. He still lives in Korea. He has a job there, and from the looks of things, is intent on keeping that job. On the other hand, Nongmin left Korea to move to the US. He plans to continue living in the US for his university studies. On top of living and studying outside Korea, he is more a part of the foreign community than Idra. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
IdrA practices on CJ Entus. I mean this guy can practice with fucking EffOrt on a regular basis. He has a far bigger advantage than nongminzerg. He's a KOREAN PROGAMER | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9110 Posts
imo IdrA shouldn't really be allowed to play either since he plays sc professionally and everyone else is just a recreational player (I'm not counting ret because he JUST moved to Korea and it sounds like he isn't even in the pro team house or anything right now.) | ||
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VabuDeltaKaiser
Germany1107 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:26 azndsh wrote: I thought the ban was by IP address with the notable exception of Idra because he's an American citizen 1. You are right, the only rule existing to exclude a group of people to take part is korean ip. 2. there are no exceptions made in the rules, so ret and idra are not allowed to participate from korea if we follow strictly the rules. 3. if we do not follow the rules, where is the rule that said exceptions where allowed in one case, in another case, not. 4. since theres no such rule mentioned, what are rules for if decisions are made up by.. i dont know, someone tell me! (this is not meant to you explicitly, more considered my thoughts towards the theme in general, but thank you for your great introduction for me  ) | ||
Pholon
Netherlands6142 Posts
As far as I'm concerned this tournament is for the foreign community. Nongmin has been a part of this community. I oppose to the argument of buying entry with streaming hours, but just the fact that he's been a part of our little foreigner shindig here makes him a part of this foreign community. For that I reckon we should let him in. Of course I'm oblivious as to how much he's still part of the Korean community, which might still change this argument. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
What about jianfei and xiaozi? (if they were born in USA then this example would fail but the point is we should descriminate based on race alone.) He's not a pro-gamer. He lives in USA for 4 years, how old is he anyway?. He practice on ICCUP, like the rest of us. He tries to be part of the foreign community. The reason why we don't want koreans in the tournament is because they have a different environment over there that makes them better. They have a shot of fame and money that we don't have. Thats probably why they play so much. The reason why they are not allowed is (or should atleast not be) NOT because they are korean. It would imply that koreans somehow have better genetics for being good at starcraft, which is absurd. Idra and Ret are allowed and should be allowed imo because they are an exeption of the rule, because they are a part of the foreign community. What scares me is that If he was born in Korea, but lived in USA and was a bad player I think he would be allowed... | ||
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Kong John
Denmark1020 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:42 Cowazon wrote: While rules may be rules, and are there for a reason, further clarification is needed as to why the rule is in place because it's being interpreted in two different ways. On this forum, people tend to equate the word "Korean" with "progamer", on top of its actual meaning (someone born in Korea). If the rule applies to just people of Korean descent, why is it there in the first place? No matter how you look at it, there is no logical reason to exclude someone from this tournament just because they were born in a different country. Treating someone differently based solely on their nationality is nothing more than racism... If the rule is there to prevent a progamer from playing in it and smashing everyone due to their superior training, then why is Idra allowed in it in the first place? Idra has spent more time in Korea recently than Nongmin. While being on Korean ground doesn't magically turn you into a better Starcraft player, living in the CJ house and practicing with other people on pro teams sure does. When it comes down to it, Idra is a progamer and Nongmin isn't. Feel free to type in "Idra" and "Nongmin", TLPD-ize your post, and see the result if you don't believe that. In the far more likely case that the original rule applies to professional training instead of ethnic background, no matter how many times people say that "a rule is a rule", the rule is being bent for Idra. If we overlook the split second someone was born, and consider culture, comparing Idra and Nongmin makes this issue seem even more ridiculous. Idra left the US to move to Korea. He still lives in Korea. He has a job there, and from the looks of things, is intent on keeping that job. On the other hand, Nongmin left Korea to move to the US. He plans to continue living in the US for his university studies. On top of living and studying outside Korea, he is more a part of the foreign community than Idra. I agree 100% with this post, maybe we shouldnt be basing our arguments so much on Idra but i still dont see any real reason for nongmin not to compete. This has nothing to do with ethnicity, this is about having privileges above others. Idra and Ret have alot more priviliges than nongmin. I would be really disapointed if nongmin is not allowed in the TSL2, unless there can be given a better reason than whats already been stated to why not. edit: im afraid that what stylish is saying is true aswell. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:49 StylishVODs wrote: What scares me is that If he was born in Korea, but lived in USA and was a bad player I think he would be allowed... Obviously. The only reason this is being discussed is because Nongmin would have a legitimate shot at winning the whole damn thing. If he were some no name nobody than nobody would care if he entered or not. The simple fact that he is a very real threat to ANYONE in TSL2 is why this is such a hot topic. A level zergs aren't exactly easy to come by. | ||
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RyanS
United States620 Posts
Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere. | ||
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nosliw
United States2716 Posts
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