EPTAllow Nongmin in TSL2 - Page 6
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Thratur
Canada917 Posts
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G0dly
United States450 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote: Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere. except that he's been living in the US for years and attended highschool in the US and will be going to college in the US...given that, I think it would be unfair to deny him participation in foreign tournaments. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote: Everyone is so quick to put the guy on a pedestal as if he is an invaluable community member. The guy has 12 posts, probably all of them in his streaming threads. He pushes a button to start recording and then goes about his business as he usually would. While I'm not saying that is a bad thing since many enjoy his stream, but he seems like a stranger to this community. Also threatening to stop streaming because of this is incredibly childish, rules are rules whether you like them or not. (in before, "wah wah, what have you done?" I'm not the one pleading a case to be in the tournament or being revered as some grand community member) Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Yes people put him on a pedestal and you want to know why? How many A level zergs do you know of that stream FP views whenever they play? He doesn't HAVE to do jack shit but he chooses to anyway because people enjoy watching his streams. The only other zerg that streams here even remotely close to Nongmin's skill level is Ret and Ret has not been streaming much at all lately. In contrast Nongmin has been streaming anywhere from once every other day to three separate times in a day. If you allow him in and some other Korean comes and asks why he's allowed you can simply say you know... He streams here and you do not It's quite simple. You are grasping at straws. | ||
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Substandard
Italy270 Posts
The only question that should be answered is wethever he is part of the foreign or the korean starcraft community. If people agree that he is part of the foreign community he should definitly be allowed to participate in TSL 2. After all it's exactly for that reason Idra and Ret are allowed to participate. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote: Everyone is so quick to put the guy on a pedestal as if he is an invaluable community member. The guy has 12 posts, probably all of them in his streaming threads. He pushes a button to start recording and then goes about his business as he usually would. While I'm not saying that is a bad thing since many enjoy his stream, but he seems like a stranger to this community. Also threatening to stop streaming because of this is incredibly childish, rules are rules whether you like them or not. (in before, "wah wah, what have you done?" I'm not the one pleading a case to be in the tournament or being revered as some grand community member) Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Letting Nongmin participate in TSL2 would be a far cry from allowing Korean amateurs and progamers in. He has lived in America for 4 years. This alone should set him apart from other Koreans that should probably remain banned from TSL like Terror (amateur) and Jaedong (some scrub pro). IMO, if you want to draw some arbitrary line somewhere, it should be 1. Participant must be able to play without significant lag (excludes Chinese players) 2. Participant has not been in Korea for more than 2 years out of the past 4 (excludes Korean amateurs and progamers but allows Idra and Ret to play). | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
No exceptions is the way to go. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote:Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Ever heard of exceptions? Currently, Idra is an exception to the TSL rules banning Korean IP's and pro-gamers., because he is part of the foreign community. | ||
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yhnmk
Canada630 Posts
Edit: On top of that, I think its pretty low to threaten to stop streaming, let alone get someone to post for you to convince the community, in the hopes of a backlash. If someone has an issue with tsl2 shouldnt they go to the staff, rather than attempt to undermine them, and force them to change their positions that way? | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:00 Holgerius wrote: The way I interpret the situation, he shouldn't be allowed. It's pretty simple IMO. TSL is supposed to be an event for and by the foreign community, so there obviously has to be some rule against the participation of Korean players. The simplest and most fair way of doing that is to just prohibit ALL players of Korean nationality from playing. Nongmin is Korean, and should therefore not be allowed to play. If you make an exception for him, the rule all of a sudden becomes ambiguous and questionable. Should we then allow anyone who makes a TL account and streams a few games? No exceptions is the way to go. This is ridiculous. You have to look at the intent behind the rule unless you want to claim that TL is being blatantly racist and I highly doubt that's the case RIGHT? You said yourself it's an event for and by the FOREIGN COMMUNITY. So is it now impossible for a Korean to be part of the foreign community? It's very possible to be Korean and not ever have set foot in Korean soil so I mean come on now... which is it? I hope that isn't what you're advocating because wow... that just speaks volumes. On top of that, I think its pretty low to threaten to stop streaming Why is that? I mean quite clearly he is streaming for a community that doesn't appreciate it. Why should he continue to do so? | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:00 Holgerius wrote: The way I interpret the situation, he shouldn't be allowed. It's pretty simple IMO. TSL is supposed to be an event for and by the foreign community, so there obviously has to be some rule against the participation of Korean players. The simplest and most fair way of doing that is to just prohibit ALL players of Korean nationality from playing. Nongmin is Korean, and should therefore not be allowed to play. If you make an exception for him, the rule all of a sudden becomes ambiguous and questionable. Should we then allow anyone who makes a TL account and streams a few games? No exceptions is the way to go. I'm sorry, but the only justification you are giving here is plain and simple racism. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:00 Holgerius wrote: The way I interpret the situation, he shouldn't be allowed. It's pretty simple IMO. TSL is supposed to be an event for and by the foreign community, so there obviously has to be some rule against the participation of Korean players. The simplest and most fair way of doing that is to just prohibit ALL players of Korean nationality from playing. Nongmin is Korean, and should therefore not be allowed to play. If you make an exception for him, the rule all of a sudden becomes ambiguous and questionable. Should we then allow anyone who makes a TL account and streams a few games? No exceptions is the way to go. On November 12 2009 07:02 yhnmk wrote: He's not a foreigner, he will not be in a foreign country, so why the hell should he be in a foreign tourny? No Koreans should be allowed to play in TSL, unless they were born and raised elsewhere [therefore making them a foreigner!], he was not. Pretty simple... He is a foreigner. Korean Americans are Americans too. You can't just separate people of Korean ancestry and say they are not Americans. | ||
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VabuDeltaKaiser
Germany1107 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:01 Hapahauli wrote: Ever heard of exceptions? Currently, Idra is an exception to the TSL rules banning Korean IP's and pro-gamers., because he is part of the foreign community. http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules this are the rules of last tsl, good luck find the exception. tsl2 facebook links there, so there is no tsl2 site/rulebook up as far as i could find. maybe rules are underconstruction yet so this theme matter. if the rules were strictly followed, idra was not allowed to participate in last tsl. and there is no rule that allowes exceptions, nor any power handle how or is allowed to do so. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:07 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote: http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules this are the rules of last tsl, good luck find the exception. tsl2 facebook links there, so there is no tsl2 site/rulebook up as far as i could find. maybe rules are underconstruction yet so this theme matter. if the rules were strictly followed, idra was not allowed to participate in last tsl. and there is no rule that allowes exceptions, nor any power handle how or is allowed to do so. You act as if it was hard: NO KOREAN IP ADDRESSES! CJ Entus house much? | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:07 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote: http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules this are the rules of last tsl, good luck find the exception. tsl2 facebook links there, so there is no tsl2 site/rulebook up as far as i could find. maybe rules are underconstruction yet so this theme matter. if the rules were strictly followed, idra was not allowed to participate in last tsl. and there is no rule that allowes exceptions, nor any power handle how or is allowed to do so. No Korean IP addresses. Oh dear... with Idra living in Korea at the time what ever could this mean? Maybe that he had a Korean IP address? | ||
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Etherone
United States1898 Posts
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Thratur
Canada917 Posts
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G0dly
United States450 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:02 yhnmk wrote: He's not a foreigner, he will not be in a foreign country, so why the hell should he be in a foreign tourny? No Koreans should be allowed to play in TSL, unless they were born and raised elsewhere [therefore making them a foreigner!], he was not. Pretty simple... Edit: On top of that, I think its pretty low to threaten to stop streaming, let alone get someone to post for you to convince the community, in the hopes of a backlash. If someone has an issue with tsl2 shouldnt they go to the staff, rather than underhandedly attempt to undermine them, and force them to change their positions? 1. Yes he was born in Korea, but he clearly is part of the foreign community given that he has been streaming constantly for quite a while. If anything he's a casual player living in the US who has been helping out the foreign community that wants to play in our tournament - he's certainly done far more for the foreign community than I have, and yet if I want to participate in ladder I can, while nongmin is barred simply because of where he was born. It's not like nongmin is a korean progamer/semipro who is not part of the foreign community that wants to participate - he is actively helping the foreign community, and if anything that merits inclusion within the foreign community. If I was an A zerg who had been taking out time to help people learn SC by streaming and answering questions for people, I'd be pretty pissed if I was barred from playing in a foreign tournament on the grounds that I had lived in Korea for the first 14 or so years from my life. It's like being thrown aside and rejected + ostracized from the community - Idra's been living in a progaming house for years with insider knowledge of SC and access to professional practice partner and he's allowed, but suddenly a casual guy who moved to US, attending high school in US, and attending college in US is barred? I think it's pretty ridiculous. Let the guy compete. He's been living outside of Korea for years and is clearly Korean-American. | ||
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ketomai
United States2789 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote: Everyone is so quick to put the guy on a pedestal as if he is an invaluable community member. The guy has 12 posts, probably all of them in his streaming threads. While I'm not saying that is a bad thing since many enjoy his stream, but he seems like a stranger to this community. He may not actually post on teamliquid, but he interacts regularly w/ those watching his stream. He is anything but a stranger, but prefers to not to post since his english is not extremely phenomenal. Also threatening to stop streaming because of this is incredibly childish, rules are rules whether you like them or not. (in before, "wah wah, what have you done?" I'm not the one pleading a case to be in the tournament or being revered as some grand community member) While threatening to stop a service that he's been doing free all this time anyways IS a bit childish, why should he continue to let a community that rejects him indulge on his stream at all? He pushes a button to start recording and then goes about his business as he usually would. Saying all he does is push a button is really ignorant. Why don't all the other top foreigners stream for the public to enjoy by "pushing a button" and become e-famous? I gave teamliquid its youtube account. That took a total of 0 effort on my part and I just "[went] about my business", but does that make my contribution less valuable? No, because by "pushing a button" nongmin helps a shitload of people with A level Zerg play. How about he doesn't push the button and I don't donate my youtube account? Can you write off such contributions then? In spite of that, I bet you nongmin would not play half as much starcraft as he does (again, 3 A- accounts, 1 A account with 500+ games played between them) if he didn't have our hunger to satiate through streaming. Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Please read the post. Nongmin is under different circumstances than the typical korean, as I explained in the post. | ||
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WARMASTER.v13
United States34 Posts
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Thratur
Canada917 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:15 WARMASTER.v13 wrote: Do the other competitors in TSL mind if Nongmin plays? On November 12 2009 05:58 MorroW[MB] wrote: is he korean? dont allow chinese or korean ^^; oh he lives in usa? lol ofc he can play then :D Morrow doesn't mind! What about the others? | ||
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