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Nongmin, aka nongminzerg on team liquid, aka the A Rank Zerg who streams for all of team liquid to enjoy has recently been denied participation in the upcoming TSL2. Nongmin was set to compete in the TSL2, but upon PM’ing Hot_Bid he was notified that he would NOT be allowed to participate in the TSL 2. I don’t have full details of that PM, however, from the information I gathered from nongmin’s comments, he will not be allowed to participate mainly because he will be moving to Korea tomorrow for several months before coming back to the US coupled with the fact that he is Korean. This is terrible luck for nongmin, who has not been able to participate in any of the foreign events, because not only was he unable to participate in the ASL due to school reasons during the exact months that it happened, but now, after staying the United States for 4+ years and gracing 250+ viewers at a time with his First Person View almost every day excluding the one month break, he will be unable to participate in an event hosted by the very community that he has helped so much due to a few short months that he must return to Korea. All that he has done for team liquid alone should validate giving him a chance to be rewarded for his hundreds of hours of service, but even ignoring that, there is absolutely no reason he should not be allowed to participate in the TSL2.
For those you unfamiliar with nongmin’s background and where he was geographically for the past few years, I will give a brief history. Nongmin moved here 4 years ago in order to attend high school in the United States, like many other Korean students. He just recently started streaming several months ago after being led to team liquid for the first time following his senior year in high school (4th and last year). Currently, nongmin has decided to take a break before entering university for various, unimportant reasons (but if you must know, it was forced upon him due to a temporary stomach illness). Because he is no longer attending school in the United States, there is little need for him to stay here until he hopefully begins University at John Hopkins, and therefore, he or his parents decided that it would be best to go back to Korea for those months in between.
The main objection is that he will be in Korea during the time of the TSL2, however, you have to look at the complete context. He’s not just any Korean in Korea, he is a student staying in America for 4+ years and happens to be leaving for the first time in those 4+ years for a few measly months in order to prepare himself for the schooling that he originally came to the US. Now, why are Koreans not allowed in the TSL2? The main reason, we all know, is because Koreans are just too damn good. However, that can’t be used as a legitimate argument, as ‘good’ is arbitrary and generalizing a whole nation into that category would be ludicrous. So, instead, we officially blame it on the REASON Koreans are so good, and that is the presence of organized leagues, sponsors, and teams in Korea. After the Chinese also got these accommodations, their participation in foreign leagues was also in the air. That reason is legitimate. The TSL2 and other foreigner tournaments are to develop the underdeveloped foreigner scene. Koreans don’t need more prize money because they have two prestigious tournaments with prize pools of 20k or more along with salaries for pro gamers. However, the only one of these criteria that nongmin meets is that he his nationality is Korean, the one reason we can not hold against him. Once again, he has not been in Korea for almost 4+ years, therefore, he has not had a chance to cash in on any tournament or leagues that are physically present in Korea. If he can not participate in foreigner tournaments, where can he compete? Traveling to Korea for a couple months will not allow him to take advantage of all the things Korea has to offer because he has been a resident of the US since 2005, therefore, cutting him from the TSL2 for such a simplistic reason is just semantics.
The other, less common, objection that I can see coming up is that since he is in Korea, he will lag. This issue should be nonexistent because not only are non-Korean players from places equally or further from the majority of the players that are participating (US) allowed to compete, but Idra and Ret, who are currently physically in Korea, will be allowed to compete (I’m assuming they will be allowed to compete due to Idra’s participation in the original TSL), which should contradict this reason completely.
Once again, nongmin already has a legitimate claim to participation in the TSL even without his immense contributions to team liquid. However, hundreds of hours of streaming of high level play we rarely see in FPView is just too big to ignore. He is one of best , if not THE best streamer for team liquid, drawing hundreds of viewers every time he streams, and many more who can’t initially view it first hand through On-Demand VODS. In his time with team liquid streaming, he has already streamed 3 accounts of his climbing to A- and 1 climbing to A in this season alone. The sheer amount of games he has to play to be able to do this is extraordinary, however, not only did he get all of those ranks, he streamed almost every single game. Viewers who saw one of his accounts streaming at D one day, would come back the next day to see it streaming at B+, and then the next day, A-. This is discounting the A level games he gave us last season his team liquid debut before his one month break. Even without doing anything but streaming, he has helped a wide number of people improve their game, but not only has he done that, he also has answered every single question often asked in his channel. Team liquid viewers watching his stream benefit enormously from it. While I can’t back it up, I personally have gained 2 iccup ranks in the months that he started streaming until now. His stream was a large part of my improvement, and I know I am not alone.
While I know that we at team liquid have a standard for strictly adhering to rules, I think making a small exception for nongmin should not be out of the question, and instead granted. He violates the rule of living in Korea in name only as he does not draw any of the benefits from actually being there. In addition, he has helped multitudes of people improve their game or just pass time in the evenings through his hundreds of hours of streaming. Tournaments such as ASL have recently allowed for Koreans living in America such as SCan and JST-Sexy to compete, who are both in similar situation as nongmin, and hopefully team liquid will follow suit and follow the precedent ASL set, especially in the case of nongmin a valuable member of the Teamliquid Community.
edit: Clarifications: Nongmin is not a US citizen, nor does he have a Green card, but that is not uncommon even after 4 years because getting legal citizenship is a long process. What I'm trying to say is to allow an exception for nongmin through common sense, taking into account the context surrounding nongmin (his immense contribution + his is untimely departure).
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Poll: Should Nongmin be allowed to participate in the TSL2?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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I want to see him participate, but if the TL staff are adamantly against it then I personally am not going to care that much
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8751 Posts
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Allow Nongmin PLEASE, hes so fun to watch, and i would love watching him go through the tsl brackets!!! Hes so mannered too!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!
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Decisions, decisions.
Poll: Do you want free candy?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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well said  , I think it is fair enough to let him in
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Possibly... it becomes a fine line to tread when we start deciding which Koreans to allow to compete in foreigner events. Personally I think he should be allowed to compete... but I can see why they wouldn't allow him to. Its so much easier to manage if you have a rule that disallows Koreans from participating.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Idra has been living in Korea for a entire year. You can't use living in Korea as a argument for why he should not be allowed to play. Since Nongmin lived in America for the last 4 years, you might as well consider him a American.
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I have a feeling people are only voting yes because he streams when that really has nothing to do with the situation. Competing in TSL has nothing with contribution to this community. At the same time I'm torn because he is in the middle of two starcraft communities and it would be a shame for him to be rejected by both. Im glad its not my decision.
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considering training situation and tourney situation nongmin has been a korean foreigner for the last years and on that is his skill and abillities as a player are based.
and an active member of the foreign community traveling to korea for vacancy after years should be considered korean foreigner allowed to play starcraft; same as foreign korean progamer/ foreign player from korea are allowed that is ret and idra. period.
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How about he plays show matches with some of the finalists? You could put up mini-prizes if you like, kind of like a liquibition.
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On November 12 2009 05:30 T.O.P. wrote:
Idra has been living in Korea for a entire year. You can't use living in Korea as a argument for why he should not be allowed to play. Since Nongmin lived in America for the last 4 years, you might as well consider him a American.
It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. By your logic Idra would indeed not be allowed to play; if we consider Nongmin to be American for living in America, then Idra is a Korean for living in Korea.
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Not letting Nongmin play, while letting in Idra who recieves 24/7 training in the CJ Entus house seems absolutely absurd.
It's just a bit silly when Nongmin hasn't recieved the training and has been at school in America for the past 5 years. Very well argued OP as well, nice one
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op do you mind dividing up your paragraphs
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I personally think rules need to be universal. The more you bend them for certain individuals, the more complications and unequality you get out of it. Allowing semi-pro gamers (ret/idra) to play but not allowing others seems a bit unfair. You need to set ground rules, and follow them from the start. I understand this is your tournament, but it still has to be run professionally, allowing everyone without a progamer license (or lag problems) an equal chance at the prize. I have a feeling he is being rejected because he is a really strong player, and has a great chance at winning it.
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if you guys arent going to invite nongming because he is korean then dont invite idra to any foreign tournaments because he is in korea and in a korean team. its not fair for someone who is in america and korea and yet idra is white and is in korea and in foreign tournaments. this doesnt make sense and fair
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On November 12 2009 05:40 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:30 T.O.P. wrote:
Idra has been living in Korea for a entire year. You can't use living in Korea as a argument for why he should not be allowed to play. Since Nongmin lived in America for the last 4 years, you might as well consider him a American. It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. By your logic Idra would indeed not be allowed to play; if we consider Nongmin to be American for living in America, then Idra is a Korean for living in Korea.
Jupp
Let him play!
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Well it all depends on if Nongmin will be working hard in Korea or not. If he will be, then I say yes.
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On November 12 2009 05:41 geegee1 wrote:
if you guys arent going to invite nongming because he is korean then dont invite idra to any foreign tournaments because he is in korea and in a korean team. its not fair for someone who is in america and korea and yet idra is white and is in korea and in foreign tournaments. this doesnt make sense and fair
agreed. i voted "YES"!
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 12 2009 05:37 NeoOmega wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:34 baller wrote:
to be consistent, they could just ban idra and ret too then
that or allow all nonpro koreans to play
fun tournament either way TSL is a tournament for foreigners, and in my opinion being a foreigner is about heritage/nationality not geographic location
So TSL2 = White people only?
I would like to stress than Nongmin is a Korean American. He's just as American as Incontrol. You should not ban a player just because of he's of Korean decent.
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Well doesn't make sense that Idra can play since he's been in Korea competing for so long. Ret just got to Korea so by these rules he should be out as well. Teamliquid has been about connecting foreigners to Koreans for the last 7 years and non-Koreans have been able to watch pros just like Koreans. Iccup brings a lot of Koreans to practice with so it just makes sense that this guy should be allowed in. Not only does he do things for TL (big favourtists here, favour your guy) but him living in America for so long is the mirror of the foreigners in Korea whom are allowed to play. Unless this is just mad racist ;O
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That's a lot of lines saying 'nongmin should play because he is a cool guy' ofcourse people are gonna vote yes on a poll because hes awesome, wont change a thing.
On November 12 2009 05:41 geegee1 wrote:
if you guys arent going to invite nongming because he is korean then dont invite idra to any foreign tournaments because he is in korea and in a korean team. its not fair for someone who is in america and korea and yet idra is white and is in korea and in foreign tournaments. this doesnt make sense and fair
Your logic fails here because Idra and nonming are the exact opposites of eachother in this situation.
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Well, rules are rules, so I'd say no, even tho I watched his stream many times, he's an awsome guy, but rules are rules ;/.
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have we no shame ?
the man streams for us and we repay him with this kind of treatment?
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On November 12 2009 05:49 Frits wrote:That's a lot of lines saying 'nongmin should play because he is a cool guy' ofcourse people are gonna vote yes on a poll because hes awesome, wont change a thing. Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:41 geegee1 wrote:
if you guys arent going to invite nongming because he is korean then dont invite idra to any foreign tournaments because he is in korea and in a korean team. its not fair for someone who is in america and korea and yet idra is white and is in korea and in foreign tournaments. this doesnt make sense and fair Your logic fails here because Idra and nonming are the exact opposites of eachother in this situation.
Exact opposites are equal. This just an elaborate scheme to give idra free money?
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Let him play~
He isn't allowed to play because he is Korean or because he is going to be living in Korea during the TSL?
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I think he should be allowed to play, it's not like being born in Korea gave him some advantage over everyone else. He's been living in the US for quite a long time.
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is he korean?
dont allow chinese or korean
^^;
oh he lives in usa?
lol ofc he can play then :D
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If idra and ret are allowed to play, so should he. He is a U.S citizen isnt he?
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I dont see why he should be allowed? why make exceptions suddently when big money comes into the picture. It is very easy for people that are not thinking of participating in TSL2 to vote yes. But it is unfair for the rest of the community. Its easy for you who have been watching his stream since he started to state that he should be given the chance. No strings attached! he is still korean, no exceptions imo!
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On November 12 2009 05:40 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:30 T.O.P. wrote:
Idra has been living in Korea for a entire year. You can't use living in Korea as a argument for why he should not be allowed to play. Since Nongmin lived in America for the last 4 years, you might as well consider him a American. It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. By your logic Idra would indeed not be allowed to play; if we consider Nongmin to be American for living in America, then Idra is a Korean for living in Korea.
IdrA shouldnt be allowed to play either. I honestly have no idea why they still let him into foreigner tournaments when he is a progamer.
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Also I think any arguments that follow the lines of "he's too good to enter, you're just giving him money" should look to the game JF played vs Nongmin (was on stream a month ago or so, extremely sexy timing attack by JF), the foreigners are more than capable of playing him straight up.
Especially Idra (and Ret, even if his ZvZ is still being developed ^_^).
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Idra has been living and practicing in a pro gaming house for years - I see no reason why a korean student who has spent the last few years in the US can't compete as well.
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I don't think he should be allowed to play. A rule is a rule, no exceptions IMO.
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On November 12 2009 05:59 ThePhan2m wrote:
I dont see why he should be allowed? why make exceptions suddently when big money comes into the picture. It is very easy for people that are not thinking of participating in TSL2 to vote yes. But it is unfair for the rest of the community. Its easy for you who have been watching his stream since he started to state that he should be given the chance. No strings attached! he is still korean, no exceptions imo!
How is it unfair to the rest of the community?
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If he has citizenship in the USA I think he is just as eligible to play as any1 else from the usa, no matter where he was born. If not, then he would count as a korean who happened to be visiting the usa for a long time, and shouldnt be allowed to play.
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On November 12 2009 05:48 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:37 NeoOmega wrote:On November 12 2009 05:34 baller wrote:
to be consistent, they could just ban idra and ret too then
that or allow all nonpro koreans to play
fun tournament either way TSL is a tournament for foreigners, and in my opinion being a foreigner is about heritage/nationality not geographic location So TSL2 = White people only? I would like to stress than Nongmin is a Korean American. He's just as American as Incontrol. You should not ban a player just because of he's of Korean decent.
Is he actually an American citizen? If so, then he should absolutely be allowed to compete.
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On November 12 2009 05:59 daz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:40 Holgerius wrote:On November 12 2009 05:30 T.O.P. wrote:
Idra has been living in Korea for a entire year. You can't use living in Korea as a argument for why he should not be allowed to play. Since Nongmin lived in America for the last 4 years, you might as well consider him a American. It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. By your logic Idra would indeed not be allowed to play; if we consider Nongmin to be American for living in America, then Idra is a Korean for living in Korea. IdrA shouldnt be allowed to play either. I honestly have no idea why they still let him into foreigner tournaments when he is a progamer.
The rule doesn't forbid professional players from participating; it forbids koreans. Idra is not korean.
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Does he speak English? I believe that this is what makes the biggest difference between our community and Korean community : language. From my opinion, if he can speak English then he can be part of our community with no problem. If not, then he's a Korean.
I would let SuperDanielMan or Lilsusie play, for example.
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I think nongmin could provide good matches, if they are too afraid of nongmin skill then they should only allow suck people to participate in. If Nongmin is in, people will aware of his skill then they will practice harder, therefore provide even better matches for us to watch
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On November 12 2009 06:06 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:59 daz wrote:On November 12 2009 05:40 Holgerius wrote:On November 12 2009 05:30 T.O.P. wrote:
Idra has been living in Korea for a entire year. You can't use living in Korea as a argument for why he should not be allowed to play. Since Nongmin lived in America for the last 4 years, you might as well consider him a American. It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. By your logic Idra would indeed not be allowed to play; if we consider Nongmin to be American for living in America, then Idra is a Korean for living in Korea. IdrA shouldnt be allowed to play either. I honestly have no idea why they still let him into foreigner tournaments when he is a progamer. The rule doesn't forbid professional players from participating; it forbids koreans. Idra is not korean.
If KeSPA has taught us anything it's that we should look not at the rule itself but the intent behind it. Why does it forbid Koreans?
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If Idra and ret are allowed, then geography is not the deciding factor, so he should be allowed. A person's ethnicity should not be a factor for eligibility. Since he spent his last few years outside of Korea, then his situation is similar to Idra/ret. Unless you start setting minimum time outside of Korea standards - 10 years? That's the only way you could have a consistent set of rules and exclude him, and a rule like that will look like it's specifically targeting this case.
Finally, note that the official poll mentions idra/ret's participation. Thus, nongmin should be able to participate.
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Well, he went to an American high school and is planning to attend an American university, so surely he must be able to speak English.
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This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above.
He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in.
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On November 12 2009 06:07 Thratur wrote:
Does he speak English? I believe that this is what makes the biggest difference between our community and Korean community : language. From my opinion, if he can speak English then he can be part of our community with no problem. If not, then he's a Korean.
I would let SuperDanielMan or Lilsusie play, for example.
I don't know if speaks English but he types to people on ICCup and people on his stream in English.
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Let him play plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
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On November 12 2009 06:06 NeVeR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:48 T.O.P. wrote:On November 12 2009 05:37 NeoOmega wrote:On November 12 2009 05:34 baller wrote:
to be consistent, they could just ban idra and ret too then
that or allow all nonpro koreans to play
fun tournament either way TSL is a tournament for foreigners, and in my opinion being a foreigner is about heritage/nationality not geographic location So TSL2 = White people only? I would like to stress than Nongmin is a Korean American. He's just as American as Incontrol. You should not ban a player just because of he's of Korean decent. Is he actually an American citizen? If so, then he should absolutely be allowed to compete.
Doubt it, he is probably just on a school visa. Citizenship is very difficult to get at the moment. I could be wrong though.
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On November 12 2009 06:06 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:59 daz wrote:On November 12 2009 05:40 Holgerius wrote:On November 12 2009 05:30 T.O.P. wrote:
Idra has been living in Korea for a entire year. You can't use living in Korea as a argument for why he should not be allowed to play. Since Nongmin lived in America for the last 4 years, you might as well consider him a American. It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. By your logic Idra would indeed not be allowed to play; if we consider Nongmin to be American for living in America, then Idra is a Korean for living in Korea. IdrA shouldnt be allowed to play either. I honestly have no idea why they still let him into foreigner tournaments when he is a progamer. The rule doesn't forbid professional players from participating; it forbids koreans. Idra is not korean.
uh the OP goes over that in pretty decent detail, it has nothing to do with race but with the benefits associated with living in a certain place.
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On November 12 2009 06:09 RyanS wrote:
This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above.
He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in.
Why not ban non-Koreans who speak Korean then? They have those same advantages.
If you go on battle.net and ask someone for a game in Korean they're not going to say "wait, are you a Korean citizen?"
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Nice essay, but you forgot to capitalise his name every time you wrote it. You will receive the grade F for this.
Grammar Nazism ftw! Heil Grammar!
I hope he gets to participate in the tourney though.
On November 12 2009 05:28 okum wrote:Decisions, decisions. Poll: Do you want free candy?( Vote): Yes ( Vote): No
Momma told me not to accept candy from strangers.
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On November 12 2009 05:43 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Well it all depends on if Nongmin will be working hard in Korea or not. If he will be, then I say yes.
LoL... win
Also, I guess the biggest question is why we're not letting Koreans play. Is it because living in that intense competitive atmosphere makes them so much better than gamers in other places?
If so, then I would agree that ret and Idra shouldn't be allowed to play.
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On November 12 2009 06:09 RyanS wrote:
This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above.
He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in.
You're suggesting that Idra, a pro-gamer, who has access to the best practice partners, practices Starcraft for a living, has full access to CJ Entus insider knowledge about strategy, somehow is at an informational disadvantage against a casual Korean player who lived in the US for four years!?
Seriously!?
What about a non-korean who speaks korean? Should he/she be banned because they have access to OGN/MBC starcraft commentary?
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On November 12 2009 06:08 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:06 Holgerius wrote:On November 12 2009 05:59 daz wrote:On November 12 2009 05:40 Holgerius wrote:On November 12 2009 05:30 T.O.P. wrote:
Idra has been living in Korea for a entire year. You can't use living in Korea as a argument for why he should not be allowed to play. Since Nongmin lived in America for the last 4 years, you might as well consider him a American. It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. By your logic Idra would indeed not be allowed to play; if we consider Nongmin to be American for living in America, then Idra is a Korean for living in Korea. IdrA shouldnt be allowed to play either. I honestly have no idea why they still let him into foreigner tournaments when he is a progamer. The rule doesn't forbid professional players from participating; it forbids koreans. Idra is not korean. If KeSPA has taught us anything it's that we should look not at the rule itself but the intent behind it. Why does it forbid Koreans?
This is so true and I don't think the reason why we forbid Koreans apply to him.
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On November 12 2009 06:16 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:09 RyanS wrote:
This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above.
He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in. Why not ban non-Koreans who speak Korean then? They have those same advantages. If you go on battle.net and ask someone for a game in Korean they're not going to say "wait, are you a Korean citizen?"
Give an example of a big name foreign player(that has a shot to win/go far in the tournament) who speaks Korean? Because I am not sure of any.
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If IdrA is allowed in the TSL2 by no means should nongmin be excluded.
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On November 12 2009 06:06 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:59 daz wrote:On November 12 2009 05:40 Holgerius wrote:On November 12 2009 05:30 T.O.P. wrote:
Idra has been living in Korea for a entire year. You can't use living in Korea as a argument for why he should not be allowed to play. Since Nongmin lived in America for the last 4 years, you might as well consider him a American. It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. By your logic Idra would indeed not be allowed to play; if we consider Nongmin to be American for living in America, then Idra is a Korean for living in Korea. IdrA shouldnt be allowed to play either. I honestly have no idea why they still let him into foreigner tournaments when he is a progamer. The rule doesn't forbid professional players from participating; it forbids koreans. Idra is not korean.
Well, then the rule is sort of bullshit. I'd think the clear intent should be to seperate the much-better developed korean scene from the foreign one. I belive that Nongmin should be able to play (as a result of his stay in the States) and Idra (as a result of his semi-pro (?) training) should not. I'm not sure about Ret. He just got there, right? If so, he should be eligible.
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On November 12 2009 06:21 RyanS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:16 Rostam wrote:On November 12 2009 06:09 RyanS wrote:
This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above.
He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in. Why not ban non-Koreans who speak Korean then? They have those same advantages. If you go on battle.net and ask someone for a game in Korean they're not going to say "wait, are you a Korean citizen?" Give an example of a big name foreign player(that has a shot to win/go far in the tournament) who speaks Korean? Because I am not sure of any.
That doesn't change the principle of the rule.
Arguably, the match commentary on TL.net is a hell of a lot more detailed than MBC/OGN TV shows. Ever watch Day[9]'s stream? Perhaps that is game-breaking analysis for all TL members...
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Hell yes he should play.
If people like Idra and Ret are playing, it will be definitely not a one-sided noob-stomping tournament just because he's Korean.
Plus, his contributions are great and he should be rewarded.
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On November 12 2009 06:09 RyanS wrote:
This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above.
He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in.
By your logic, wouldn't you ban non-koreans who had learned the language? I know some korean sites require a korean social security number, but for example I can still watch all the VODs and get onto the big korean starcraft forums like pgr21 or ygosu.
I'm not particularly for or against nongmin participating in the TSL, I'm just curious what your response will be.
edit: someone beat me to it.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:07 Thratur wrote:
Does he speak English? I believe that this is what makes the biggest difference between our community and Korean community : language. From my opinion, if he can speak English then he can be part of our community with no problem. If not, then he's a Korean.
I would let SuperDanielMan or Lilsusie play, for example.
This guy is going to John Hopkins, ranked 14th national university in the USA. Nongmin must be really good at english or else he wouldn't have got into such a prestigious university.
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So according to some of your logic, I shouldn't participate in the TSL2 either right? I'm Korean American and have been living in the states for more than ten years. Unbelievable.
Yes, I am very fluent in Korean. I understand and speak the language well. :|
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lol he's on his stream saying he won't livestream anymore if he is banned from TSL
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On November 12 2009 06:17 meeple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:43 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Well it all depends on if Nongmin will be working hard in Korea or not. If he will be, then I say yes. LoL... win Also, I guess the biggest question is why we're not letting Koreans play. Is it because living in that intense competitive atmosphere makes them so much better than gamers in other places? If so, then I would agree that ret and Idra shouldn't be allowed to play.
Well the thing is that this is a tournament for the foreign scene, and I enjoy watching players you know (like ret, idra, mondi and so on) play. I don't think all koreans should be let in, but I definatly think nongmin should be allowed in since he's been a part of the foreign community with his streaming.
Edit:
But I do realize this is a hard descision for TL/TSL staff
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if idra (and ret if he stays in estro) is allowed to participate why cant nongmin play? Oo
is this like some sort of crazy racism that if u are american but live in korea u are in, but if u r korean and live in the USA u r out? ridicolous
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
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On November 12 2009 06:25 Ganfei wrote:
lol he's on his stream saying he won't livestream anymore if he is banned from TSL
I don't really think an ultimatum is a good way to go about this but I guess I can see why he'd be upset.
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On November 12 2009 06:25 Ganfei wrote:
lol he's on his stream saying he won't livestream anymore if he is banned from TSL
Well, he didn't word it as a threat or anything
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I thought the ban was by IP address with the notable exception of Idra because he's an American citizen
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On November 12 2009 06:23 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:21 RyanS wrote:On November 12 2009 06:16 Rostam wrote:On November 12 2009 06:09 RyanS wrote:
This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above.
He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in. Why not ban non-Koreans who speak Korean then? They have those same advantages. If you go on battle.net and ask someone for a game in Korean they're not going to say "wait, are you a Korean citizen?" Give an example of a big name foreign player(that has a shot to win/go far in the tournament) who speaks Korean? Because I am not sure of any. That doesn't change the principle of the rule. Arguably, the match commentary on TL.net is a hell of a lot more detailed than MBC/OGN TV shows. Ever watch Day[9]'s stream? Perhaps that is game-breaking analysis for all TL members...
Have you watched the subtitled translations of the Korean commentary? There's a reason those guys are paid, and it's not just because they can scream loud. They understand the game extremely well.
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if this is the matter of fact, we know how good TSL staffs are
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On November 12 2009 06:25 Ganfei wrote:
lol he's on his stream saying he won't livestream anymore if he is banned from TSL
Well, banning him from the TSL is analogous to saying "Nope, sorry, you're not part of the foreign community". Why should he want to provide a service to a community that shuns him?
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On November 12 2009 06:27 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:23 Hapahauli wrote:On November 12 2009 06:21 RyanS wrote:On November 12 2009 06:16 Rostam wrote:On November 12 2009 06:09 RyanS wrote:
This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above.
He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in. Why not ban non-Koreans who speak Korean then? They have those same advantages. If you go on battle.net and ask someone for a game in Korean they're not going to say "wait, are you a Korean citizen?" Give an example of a big name foreign player(that has a shot to win/go far in the tournament) who speaks Korean? Because I am not sure of any. That doesn't change the principle of the rule. Arguably, the match commentary on TL.net is a hell of a lot more detailed than MBC/OGN TV shows. Ever watch Day[9]'s stream? Perhaps that is game-breaking analysis for all TL members... Have you watched the subtitled translations of the Korean commentary? There's a reason those guys are paid, and it's not just because they can scream loud. They understand the game extremely well.
So do the top ranked foreigners and Day9's stream. I mean seriously?
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it sucks cuz if you allow one exception it sets a confusing precedent
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let the guy compete somewhere!
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On November 12 2009 06:30 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:27 Jyvblamo wrote:On November 12 2009 06:23 Hapahauli wrote:On November 12 2009 06:21 RyanS wrote:On November 12 2009 06:16 Rostam wrote:On November 12 2009 06:09 RyanS wrote:
This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above.
He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in. Why not ban non-Koreans who speak Korean then? They have those same advantages. If you go on battle.net and ask someone for a game in Korean they're not going to say "wait, are you a Korean citizen?" Give an example of a big name foreign player(that has a shot to win/go far in the tournament) who speaks Korean? Because I am not sure of any. That doesn't change the principle of the rule. Arguably, the match commentary on TL.net is a hell of a lot more detailed than MBC/OGN TV shows. Ever watch Day[9]'s stream? Perhaps that is game-breaking analysis for all TL members... Have you watched the subtitled translations of the Korean commentary? There's a reason those guys are paid, and it's not just because they can scream loud. They understand the game extremely well. So do the top ranked foreigners and Day9's stream. I mean seriously?
You said that the commentary on TL.net is a lot more detailed than the MBC/OGN commentary, which is a baseless opinion, and arguably false, since you have some of the former best players in the world like Ra and Kingdom (and in the past other greats like TheMarine) commentating.
Let me also state that I'm in no way disparaging great commentators like Day[9], who really provides quality analysis and insight. However, I just think its presumptuous in the extreme to assume that they are better than the Korean commentators.
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On November 12 2009 06:09 RyanS wrote:
This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above.
He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in.
Idra lives in the CJ house and practices with a professional team. He has a coach that not only freaking speaks english but pays him extra attention.
You're right, it's not the same situation... IDRA has WAY more of an advantage than Nongmin does. How you can even think otherwise is an astounding. My god you just look at the fact that he's korean and that's that.
Amazing.
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On November 12 2009 06:30 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:25 Ganfei wrote:
lol he's on his stream saying he won't livestream anymore if he is banned from TSL Well, banning him from the TSL is analogous to saying "Nope, sorry, you're not part of the foreign community". Why should he want to provide a service to a community that shuns him?
Agreed with this, if he's trying to be a part of the foreign community by streaming quality games and such, then he gets banned from playing a tournament with foreigners he should feel really pissed.
Saying we don't want him as part of the community.
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He should receive an invite to the ladder stage, and if he succeeds in laddering, then he can be allowed.
He is someone who actively participates in this community, and should be an invited Korean player, regardless of where he lives.
It spices things up in the tournament.
He may not even qualify.
But it would be cool if he had a shot.
Koreans should be brought in by invitation.
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IMHO, being an active TL member should be sufficient. If this leads to a mass invasion of Korean progamers on the TL forum, so much the better for TL.
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I think he should be allowed to play.
The reasons why foreigners make "foreigner tournaments" (in my opinion) are 1)Koreans have their own tournaments at a much higher lvl, 2) it´s unfair to compete with people that plays SC as a job and live in a eSports-supporting environment; maybe 3) Lag issues.
He lives and studies in the US, and doesn´t have 1) 2) nor 3), and on top of that, he streams for a 90% foreigner comunity, and he's in his right if he decides to stop doing it after this.
I find more reasons to deny participation to ret and idrA than to nongmin (i want ret and idra to play this too, not saying that they shouldn´t play).
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On November 12 2009 06:33 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:30 Hapahauli wrote:On November 12 2009 06:27 Jyvblamo wrote:On November 12 2009 06:23 Hapahauli wrote:On November 12 2009 06:21 RyanS wrote:On November 12 2009 06:16 Rostam wrote:On November 12 2009 06:09 RyanS wrote:
This is a matter of citizenship rather than him just going back to Korea in the near future. He is not American, he is a Korean. He has access to every bit of Korean StarCraft available on the internet. He can understand every bit of the analysis from pro games on OGN/MBC. He has access to amateur Korean practice partners, maybe even players on a pro team, and can befriend them because he is Korean. Korean amateur players are generally are higher skilled than non-Korean amateur players(might be some argument on that, but I think most can agree). Of course you can say well what about Idra? I don't necessarily think it is the same situation. He does have the good Korean practice partners, but not everything else that a Korean born and raised person would have that I mentioned up above.
He is a good community member and his contributions are appreciated, but I just don't think it is fair to let him in. Why not ban non-Koreans who speak Korean then? They have those same advantages. If you go on battle.net and ask someone for a game in Korean they're not going to say "wait, are you a Korean citizen?" Give an example of a big name foreign player(that has a shot to win/go far in the tournament) who speaks Korean? Because I am not sure of any. That doesn't change the principle of the rule. Arguably, the match commentary on TL.net is a hell of a lot more detailed than MBC/OGN TV shows. Ever watch Day[9]'s stream? Perhaps that is game-breaking analysis for all TL members... Have you watched the subtitled translations of the Korean commentary? There's a reason those guys are paid, and it's not just because they can scream loud. They understand the game extremely well. So do the top ranked foreigners and Day9's stream. I mean seriously? You said that the commentary on TL.net is a lot more detailed than the MBC/OGN commentary, which is a baseless opinion, and arguably false, since you have some of the former best players in the world like Ra and Kingdom (and in the past other greats like TheMarine) commentating.
This is also arguably false and an appeal to authority. You are assuming that:
A) because they are former starcraft players, they have a sublime understanding of the modern game.
B) they can effectively communicate the entirety of their knowledge to a general TV audience without overwhelming them and thus bringing down ratings.
C) they are paid, not because they are good TV personalities, but completely based on starcraft knowledge.
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Letting Idra compete and Nongmin not is pretty blatantly racist.
The only concerns I could think of not rooted in racism... would be along the lines of if letting him in would open a floodgate - it won't, most koreans know nothing and care nothing about the foreign scene, or that within a month in Korea his skills would skyrocket past every single foreign player, to the point where he's unbeatable. That's extremely unlikely, it didn't happen for Idra, it hasn't happened for Ret.
He's also been gone from Korea for four years. Consider the difference in skill between players of 4 years ago and today, I mean, Boxer just lost games to White-Ra and G5.
He'll even answer random questions about builds if he drops into OP IRC.
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While rules may be rules, and are there for a reason, further clarification is needed as to why the rule is in place because it's being interpreted in two different ways. On this forum, people tend to equate the word "Korean" with "progamer", on top of its actual meaning (someone born in Korea).
If the rule applies to just people of Korean descent, why is it there in the first place? No matter how you look at it, there is no logical reason to exclude someone from this tournament just because they were born in a different country. Treating someone differently based solely on their nationality is nothing more than racism...
If the rule is there to prevent a progamer from playing in it and smashing everyone due to their superior training, then why is Idra allowed in it in the first place? Idra has spent more time in Korea recently than Nongmin. While being on Korean ground doesn't magically turn you into a better Starcraft player, living in the CJ house and practicing with other people on pro teams sure does. When it comes down to it, Idra is a progamer and Nongmin isn't. Feel free to type in "Idra" and "Nongmin", TLPD-ize your post, and see the result if you don't believe that. In the far more likely case that the original rule applies to professional training instead of ethnic background, no matter how many times people say that "a rule is a rule", the rule is being bent for Idra.
If we overlook the split second someone was born, and consider culture, comparing Idra and Nongmin makes this issue seem even more ridiculous. Idra left the US to move to Korea. He still lives in Korea. He has a job there, and from the looks of things, is intent on keeping that job. On the other hand, Nongmin left Korea to move to the US. He plans to continue living in the US for his university studies. On top of living and studying outside Korea, he is more a part of the foreign community than Idra.
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Having seen a few subbed korean commentaries, the analysis is indeed far beyond the level of any foreign commentator (minus Day[9]).
IdrA practices on CJ Entus. I mean this guy can practice with fucking EffOrt on a regular basis. He has a far bigger advantage than nongminzerg. He's a KOREAN PROGAMER
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I think it's really bad timing that he happens to be returning to Korea during TSL. However, being a Korean living in Korea should exclude him from the tournament.
imo IdrA shouldn't really be allowed to play either since he plays sc professionally and everyone else is just a recreational player (I'm not counting ret because he JUST moved to Korea and it sounds like he isn't even in the pro team house or anything right now.)
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On November 12 2009 06:26 azndsh wrote:
I thought the ban was by IP address with the notable exception of Idra because he's an American citizen
1. You are right, the only rule existing to exclude a group of people to take part is korean ip.
2. there are no exceptions made in the rules, so ret and idra are not allowed to participate from korea if we follow strictly the rules.
3. if we do not follow the rules, where is the rule that said exceptions where allowed in one case, in another case, not.
4. since theres no such rule mentioned, what are rules for if decisions are made up by.. i dont know, someone tell me!
(this is not meant to you explicitly, more considered my thoughts towards the theme in general, but thank you for your great introduction for me  )
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Netherlands6142 Posts
As far as my opinion goes I think we should judge by community. Sure his passport says Korean but will we let that decide? I'm sure many people here are foreign-country citizens yet born from Korean parents. Or moved there when young. Or even have a double passport. Are we going to exclude all of them. If I had a Korean passport would you exclude me.
As far as I'm concerned this tournament is for the foreign community. Nongmin has been a part of this community. I oppose to the argument of buying entry with streaming hours, but just the fact that he's been a part of our little foreigner shindig here makes him a part of this foreign community. For that I reckon we should let him in. Of course I'm oblivious as to how much he's still part of the Korean community, which might still change this argument.
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Is he banned because he is born in Korea? Isn't that very wierd?
What about jianfei and xiaozi? (if they were born in USA then this example would fail but the point is we should descriminate based on race alone.)
He's not a pro-gamer.
He lives in USA for 4 years, how old is he anyway?.
He practice on ICCUP, like the rest of us.
He tries to be part of the foreign community.
The reason why we don't want koreans in the tournament is because they have a different environment over there that makes them better. They have a shot of fame and money that we don't have. Thats probably why they play so much.
The reason why they are not allowed is (or should atleast not be) NOT because they are korean. It would imply that koreans somehow have better genetics for being good at starcraft, which is absurd.
Idra and Ret are allowed and should be allowed imo because they are an exeption of the rule, because they are a part of the foreign community.
What scares me is that If he was born in Korea, but lived in USA and was a bad player I think he would be allowed...
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On November 12 2009 06:42 Cowazon wrote:
While rules may be rules, and are there for a reason, further clarification is needed as to why the rule is in place because it's being interpreted in two different ways. On this forum, people tend to equate the word "Korean" with "progamer", on top of its actual meaning (someone born in Korea).
If the rule applies to just people of Korean descent, why is it there in the first place? No matter how you look at it, there is no logical reason to exclude someone from this tournament just because they were born in a different country. Treating someone differently based solely on their nationality is nothing more than racism...
If the rule is there to prevent a progamer from playing in it and smashing everyone due to their superior training, then why is Idra allowed in it in the first place? Idra has spent more time in Korea recently than Nongmin. While being on Korean ground doesn't magically turn you into a better Starcraft player, living in the CJ house and practicing with other people on pro teams sure does. When it comes down to it, Idra is a progamer and Nongmin isn't. Feel free to type in "Idra" and "Nongmin", TLPD-ize your post, and see the result if you don't believe that. In the far more likely case that the original rule applies to professional training instead of ethnic background, no matter how many times people say that "a rule is a rule", the rule is being bent for Idra.
If we overlook the split second someone was born, and consider culture, comparing Idra and Nongmin makes this issue seem even more ridiculous. Idra left the US to move to Korea. He still lives in Korea. He has a job there, and from the looks of things, is intent on keeping that job. On the other hand, Nongmin left Korea to move to the US. He plans to continue living in the US for his university studies. On top of living and studying outside Korea, he is more a part of the foreign community than Idra.
I agree 100% with this post, maybe we shouldnt be basing our arguments so much on Idra but i still dont see any real reason for nongmin not to compete. This has nothing to do with ethnicity, this is about having privileges above others. Idra and Ret have alot more priviliges than nongmin. I would be really disapointed if nongmin is not allowed in the TSL2, unless there can be given a better reason than whats already been stated to why not.
edit: im afraid that what stylish is saying is true aswell.
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On November 12 2009 06:49 StylishVODs wrote:
What scares me is that If he was born in Korea, but lived in USA and was a bad player I think he would be allowed...
Obviously.
The only reason this is being discussed is because Nongmin would have a legitimate shot at winning the whole damn thing. If he were some no name nobody than nobody would care if he entered or not.
The simple fact that he is a very real threat to ANYONE in TSL2 is why this is such a hot topic. A level zergs aren't exactly easy to come by.
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Everyone is so quick to put the guy on a pedestal as if he is an invaluable community member. The guy has 12 posts, probably all of them in his streaming threads. He pushes a button to start recording and then goes about his business as he usually would. While I'm not saying that is a bad thing since many enjoy his stream, but he seems like a stranger to this community. Also threatening to stop streaming because of this is incredibly childish, rules are rules whether you like them or not. (in before, "wah wah, what have you done?" I'm not the one pleading a case to be in the tournament or being revered as some grand community member)
Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
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can someone link me to the official TSL rules?
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Well, I don't know how much posts Draco have, for example, but I never see him around. I think he may have a very low post count (if someone can find it...) However, he is seeded in TSL2. Then, I wouldn't say that the post count really matters here.
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On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote:
Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
except that he's been living in the US for years and attended highschool in the US and will be going to college in the US...given that, I think it would be unfair to deny him participation in foreign tournaments.
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On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote:
Everyone is so quick to put the guy on a pedestal as if he is an invaluable community member. The guy has 12 posts, probably all of them in his streaming threads. He pushes a button to start recording and then goes about his business as he usually would. While I'm not saying that is a bad thing since many enjoy his stream, but he seems like a stranger to this community. Also threatening to stop streaming because of this is incredibly childish, rules are rules whether you like them or not. (in before, "wah wah, what have you done?" I'm not the one pleading a case to be in the tournament or being revered as some grand community member)
Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Yes people put him on a pedestal and you want to know why?
How many A level zergs do you know of that stream FP views whenever they play? He doesn't HAVE to do jack shit but he chooses to anyway because people enjoy watching his streams. The only other zerg that streams here even remotely close to Nongmin's skill level is Ret and Ret has not been streaming much at all lately. In contrast Nongmin has been streaming anywhere from once every other day to three separate times in a day.
If you allow him in and some other Korean comes and asks why he's allowed you can simply say you know... He streams here and you do not
It's quite simple.
You are grasping at straws.
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I think the questions shouldn't be were he lived or will live during tsl2.
The only question that should be answered is wethever he is part of the foreign or the korean starcraft community.
If people agree that he is part of the foreign community he should definitly be allowed to participate in TSL 2. After all it's exactly for that reason Idra and Ret are allowed to participate.
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On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote:
Everyone is so quick to put the guy on a pedestal as if he is an invaluable community member. The guy has 12 posts, probably all of them in his streaming threads. He pushes a button to start recording and then goes about his business as he usually would. While I'm not saying that is a bad thing since many enjoy his stream, but he seems like a stranger to this community. Also threatening to stop streaming because of this is incredibly childish, rules are rules whether you like them or not. (in before, "wah wah, what have you done?" I'm not the one pleading a case to be in the tournament or being revered as some grand community member)
Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Letting Nongmin participate in TSL2 would be a far cry from allowing Korean amateurs and progamers in. He has lived in America for 4 years. This alone should set him apart from other Koreans that should probably remain banned from TSL like Terror (amateur) and Jaedong (some scrub pro).
IMO, if you want to draw some arbitrary line somewhere, it should be
1. Participant must be able to play without significant lag (excludes Chinese players)
2. Participant has not been in Korea for more than 2 years out of the past 4 (excludes Korean amateurs and progamers but allows Idra and Ret to play).
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The way I interpret the situation, he shouldn't be allowed. It's pretty simple IMO. TSL is supposed to be an event for and by the foreign community, so there obviously has to be some rule against the participation of Korean players. The simplest and most fair way of doing that is to just prohibit ALL players of Korean nationality from playing. Nongmin is Korean, and should therefore not be allowed to play. If you make an exception for him, the rule all of a sudden becomes ambiguous and questionable. Should we then allow anyone who makes a TL account and streams a few games?
No exceptions is the way to go.
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On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote:Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Ever heard of exceptions?
Currently, Idra is an exception to the TSL rules banning Korean IP's and pro-gamers., because he is part of the foreign community.
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He's not a foreigner, he will not be in a foreign country, so why the hell should he be in a foreign tourny? No Koreans should be allowed to play in TSL, unless they were born and raised elsewhere [therefore making them a foreigner!], he was not. Pretty simple...
Edit: On top of that, I think its pretty low to threaten to stop streaming, let alone get someone to post for you to convince the community, in the hopes of a backlash. If someone has an issue with tsl2 shouldnt they go to the staff, rather than attempt to undermine them, and force them to change their positions that way?
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On November 12 2009 07:00 Holgerius wrote:
The way I interpret the situation, he shouldn't be allowed. It's pretty simple IMO. TSL is supposed to be an event for and by the foreign community, so there obviously has to be some rule against the participation of Korean players. The simplest and most fair way of doing that is to just prohibit ALL players of Korean nationality from playing. Nongmin is Korean, and should therefore not be allowed to play. If you make an exception for him, the rule all of a sudden becomes ambiguous and questionable. Should we then allow anyone who makes a TL account and streams a few games?
No exceptions is the way to go.
This is ridiculous.
You have to look at the intent behind the rule unless you want to claim that TL is being blatantly racist and I highly doubt that's the case RIGHT?
You said yourself it's an event for and by the FOREIGN COMMUNITY. So is it now impossible for a Korean to be part of the foreign community? It's very possible to be Korean and not ever have set foot in Korean soil so I mean come on now... which is it?
I hope that isn't what you're advocating because wow... that just speaks volumes.
On top of that, I think its pretty low to threaten to stop streaming
Why is that? I mean quite clearly he is streaming for a community that doesn't appreciate it. Why should he continue to do so?
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On November 12 2009 07:00 Holgerius wrote:
The way I interpret the situation, he shouldn't be allowed. It's pretty simple IMO. TSL is supposed to be an event for and by the foreign community, so there obviously has to be some rule against the participation of Korean players. The simplest and most fair way of doing that is to just prohibit ALL players of Korean nationality from playing. Nongmin is Korean, and should therefore not be allowed to play. If you make an exception for him, the rule all of a sudden becomes ambiguous and questionable. Should we then allow anyone who makes a TL account and streams a few games?
No exceptions is the way to go.
I'm sorry, but the only justification you are giving here is plain and simple racism.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:00 Holgerius wrote:
The way I interpret the situation, he shouldn't be allowed. It's pretty simple IMO. TSL is supposed to be an event for and by the foreign community, so there obviously has to be some rule against the participation of Korean players. The simplest and most fair way of doing that is to just prohibit ALL players of Korean nationality from playing. Nongmin is Korean, and should therefore not be allowed to play. If you make an exception for him, the rule all of a sudden becomes ambiguous and questionable. Should we then allow anyone who makes a TL account and streams a few games?
No exceptions is the way to go.
On November 12 2009 07:02 yhnmk wrote:
He's not a foreigner, he will not be in a foreign country, so why the hell should he be in a foreign tourny? No Koreans should be allowed to play in TSL, unless they were born and raised elsewhere [therefore making them a foreigner!], he was not. Pretty simple...
He is a foreigner. Korean Americans are Americans too. You can't just separate people of Korean ancestry and say they are not Americans.
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On November 12 2009 07:01 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote:Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Ever heard of exceptions? Currently, Idra is an exception to the TSL rules banning Korean IP's and pro-gamers., because he is part of the foreign community.
http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules this are the rules of last tsl, good luck find the exception.
tsl2 facebook links there, so there is no tsl2 site/rulebook up as far as i could find.
maybe rules are underconstruction yet so this theme matter.
if the rules were strictly followed, idra was not allowed to participate in last tsl. and there is no rule that allowes exceptions, nor any power handle how or is allowed to do so.
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On November 12 2009 07:07 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:01 Hapahauli wrote:On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote:Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Ever heard of exceptions? Currently, Idra is an exception to the TSL rules banning Korean IP's and pro-gamers., because he is part of the foreign community. http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules this are the rules of last tsl, good luck find the exception. tsl2 facebook links there, so there is no tsl2 site/rulebook up as far as i could find. maybe rules are underconstruction yet so this theme matter. if the rules were strictly followed, idra was not allowed to participate in last tsl. and there is no rule that allowes exceptions, nor any power handle how or is allowed to do so.
You act as if it was hard:
NO KOREAN IP ADDRESSES!
CJ Entus house much?
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On November 12 2009 07:07 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:01 Hapahauli wrote:On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote:Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Ever heard of exceptions? Currently, Idra is an exception to the TSL rules banning Korean IP's and pro-gamers., because he is part of the foreign community. http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules this are the rules of last tsl, good luck find the exception.tsl2 facebook links there, so there is no tsl2 site/rulebook up as far as i could find. maybe rules are underconstruction yet so this theme matter. if the rules were strictly followed, idra was not allowed to participate in last tsl. and there is no rule that allowes exceptions, nor any power handle how or is allowed to do so.
No Korean IP addresses.
Oh dear... with Idra living in Korea at the time what ever could this mean? Maybe that he had a Korean IP address?
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it would be wonderful if a mod had any comments on the subject
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Poll should be on front page.
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On November 12 2009 07:02 yhnmk wrote:
He's not a foreigner, he will not be in a foreign country, so why the hell should he be in a foreign tourny? No Koreans should be allowed to play in TSL, unless they were born and raised elsewhere [therefore making them a foreigner!], he was not. Pretty simple...
Edit: On top of that, I think its pretty low to threaten to stop streaming, let alone get someone to post for you to convince the community, in the hopes of a backlash. If someone has an issue with tsl2 shouldnt they go to the staff, rather than underhandedly attempt to undermine them, and force them to change their positions?
1. Yes he was born in Korea, but he clearly is part of the foreign community given that he has been streaming constantly for quite a while. If anything he's a casual player living in the US who has been helping out the foreign community that wants to play in our tournament - he's certainly done far more for the foreign community than I have, and yet if I want to participate in ladder I can, while nongmin is barred simply because of where he was born.
It's not like nongmin is a korean progamer/semipro who is not part of the foreign community that wants to participate - he is actively helping the foreign community, and if anything that merits inclusion within the foreign community.
If I was an A zerg who had been taking out time to help people learn SC by streaming and answering questions for people, I'd be pretty pissed if I was barred from playing in a foreign tournament on the grounds that I had lived in Korea for the first 14 or so years from my life. It's like being thrown aside and rejected + ostracized from the community - Idra's been living in a progaming house for years with insider knowledge of SC and access to professional practice partner and he's allowed, but suddenly a casual guy who moved to US, attending high school in US, and attending college in US is barred?
I think it's pretty ridiculous. Let the guy compete. He's been living outside of Korea for years and is clearly Korean-American.
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On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote:
Everyone is so quick to put the guy on a pedestal as if he is an invaluable community member. The guy has 12 posts, probably all of them in his streaming threads. While I'm not saying that is a bad thing since many enjoy his stream, but he seems like a stranger to this community.
He may not actually post on teamliquid, but he interacts regularly w/ those watching his stream. He is anything but a stranger, but prefers to not to post since his english is not extremely phenomenal.
Also threatening to stop streaming because of this is incredibly childish, rules are rules whether you like them or not. (in before, "wah wah, what have you done?" I'm not the one pleading a case to be in the tournament or being revered as some grand community member)
While threatening to stop a service that he's been doing free all this time anyways IS a bit childish, why should he continue to let a community that rejects him indulge on his stream at all?
He pushes a button to start recording and then goes about his business as he usually would.
Saying all he does is push a button is really ignorant. Why don't all the other top foreigners stream for the public to enjoy by "pushing a button" and become e-famous? I gave teamliquid its youtube account. That took a total of 0 effort on my part and I just "[went] about my business", but does that make my contribution less valuable? No, because by "pushing a button" nongmin helps a shitload of people with A level Zerg play. How about he doesn't push the button and I don't donate my youtube account? Can you write off such contributions then? In spite of that, I bet you nongmin would not play half as much starcraft as he does (again, 3 A- accounts, 1 A account with 500+ games played between them) if he didn't have our hunger to satiate through streaming.
Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Please read the post. Nongmin is under different circumstances than the typical korean, as I explained in the post.
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Do the other competitors in TSL mind if Nongmin plays?
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On November 12 2009 07:15 WARMASTER.v13 wrote:
Do the other competitors in TSL mind if Nongmin plays?
On November 12 2009 05:58 MorroW[MB] wrote:
is he korean?
dont allow chinese or korean
^^;
oh he lives in usa?
lol ofc he can play then :D
Morrow doesn't mind! What about the others?
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On November 12 2009 07:15 WARMASTER.v13 wrote:
Do the other competitors in TSL mind if Nongmin plays?
Its not foreign players to decide (unless all top players wont participate TSL2 as protest) but admins.
If I would be top foreign player and I would see competition (greatly reducing winning first place) of course I would not wanna see nongmin entering TSL2. If publicly asked I would say yes (let him participate) to not give bad image.
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Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team?
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Maybe they could do a special Show Match as part of the tournament?
JF vs. Nongmin the day before it starts, just to celebrate high level play.
TSL should be about celebrating high level play.
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I find it funny that the people who are bitching about Nongmin play don't mind Idra participating (with his professional training environment). The question is whether should Idra be allowed, lawl.
Ret hasn't had time to gain anything from his stay, so I'd be fair to let him participate.
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On November 12 2009 07:09 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:07 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote:On November 12 2009 07:01 Hapahauli wrote:On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote:Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Ever heard of exceptions? Currently, Idra is an exception to the TSL rules banning Korean IP's and pro-gamers., because he is part of the foreign community. http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules this are the rules of last tsl, good luck find the exception. tsl2 facebook links there, so there is no tsl2 site/rulebook up as far as i could find. maybe rules are underconstruction yet so this theme matter. if the rules were strictly followed, idra was not allowed to participate in last tsl. and there is no rule that allowes exceptions, nor any power handle how or is allowed to do so. You act as if it was hard: CJ Entus house much?
omg you got it ?
i was just saying letting idra play last tsl was AGAINST the rules.
in the rules there are no exceptions, with terms like "foreigner"/korean/nonkorean/progamer.
so make an exception for idra is breaking a rule.
and it will be done again this year with idra and ret, who both will have such an korean ip.
why breaking rules ? why not make better ones ?
why decide against rules in one case that way, in another case the other way ?
hm...
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I would love to see the admins reasoning to banning him. There are no legitimate reasons to ban Nongmin from playing.
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Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that].
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On November 12 2009 07:22 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:09 Hapahauli wrote:On November 12 2009 07:07 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote:On November 12 2009 07:01 Hapahauli wrote:On November 12 2009 06:53 RyanS wrote:Also if you allow him in, then any Korean(including pros and amateur) can come here and say why is he allowed but I'm not? So sadly, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Ever heard of exceptions? Currently, Idra is an exception to the TSL rules banning Korean IP's and pro-gamers., because he is part of the foreign community. http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules this are the rules of last tsl, good luck find the exception. tsl2 facebook links there, so there is no tsl2 site/rulebook up as far as i could find. maybe rules are underconstruction yet so this theme matter. if the rules were strictly followed, idra was not allowed to participate in last tsl. and there is no rule that allowes exceptions, nor any power handle how or is allowed to do so. You act as if it was hard: NO KOREAN IP ADDRESSES! CJ Entus house much? omg you got it ? i was just saying letting idra play last tsl was AGAINST the rules. in the rules there are no exceptions, with terms like "foreigner"/korean/nonkorean/progamer. so make an exception for idra is breaking a rule. and it will be done again this year with idra and ret, who both will have such an korean ip. why breaking rules ? why not make better ones ? why decide against rules in one case that way, in another case the other way ? hm...
Oh. Whoops. Sorry bout that...
Pretty easy to misread that though, a couple of people took it the other way =O
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Hello,
Why can  Ret and  IdrA play ? because they are pro-gamers with the right nationality?
Nong will be facing pro-gamers and amateurs like himself and yet since he is korean (living in us for >4y), he is out?
Basically pro-gamers that aren't korean but play 24/7 has a job are allowed and a korean that doesn't even play in Korea can't?
If you don't allow nong to play aren't you being just a "little" bit hypocrite ?
I mean you allow IdrA (pro player in Korea) to play and don't allow a korean (living in the US) amateur player to play?
My 5 cents.
ps. i hate unfairness and this is one of those cases.
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On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that].
I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005.
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On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team?
Your comparison kinda fails.
So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough.
Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough.
Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community?
If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist.
The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him?
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lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about.
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On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:
lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea.
Idra has access to a professional training environment, Nongmin does not. How is that in any way fair?
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I just wanna say, I feel a little letdown that he can't play. The guy's streamed hours upon hours of games, and I'm sure hundreds of people (including me) have learned something from his stream. Whether you have learned or not, he has contributed a lot to our streaming community. I just wanna say,
Its not like we're running some kind of Olympic games here, while the rules must be followed, sometimes reason must come first (its in the constitution, the "elastic clause"). Again, talk here means nothing. I just want to tell everyone in favor of nong to go to the complaints thread or wherever Nony told us to go.
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On November 12 2009 07:32 maleum wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:
lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. Idra has access to a professional training environment, Nongmin does not. How is that in any way fair?
Because TL admins (most at least) are US citizens and want idra to win even if it makes them remove potential threats on the player ranks?
If pro-gamers aren't allowed to play then i will feel like nong can't play because there will be no rule breaking...
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On November 12 2009 07:33 gumbum8 wrote:
The guy's streamed hours upon hours of games, and I'm sure hundreds of people (including me) have learned something from his stream. Whether you have learned or not, he has contributed a lot to our streaming community.
That is not really relevant to him being allowed or not. While he does a great service to the community, it does not automatically make him eligible for participation.
However, I think it's bloody bs that Idra would get to participate and Nong would not.
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On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about.
You are infuriating.
Your post is so far off the mark that I have the real urge to strangle you.
Read the bold part again. That is EXACTLY what we are discussing and that is EXACTLY why Koreans are banned from TSL. You would be hard pressed to find an A+ Foreigner out there at all (if there really is one...) but you can find A+ Koreans with a decent regularity and not all of them are even semi-pros...some of them are just damn good.
The environment over there provides a ton of incentives for people to get extremely good at SC...something that Nongmin wasn't a part of because he was IN THE UNITED STATES GOING TO HIGH SCHOOL.
You don't have to post in this forum to be part of the community because every time Nongmin streams he has at the very least 200-240 viewers and he regularly interacts with the people that watch him, answering questions and explaining strategies. Where do you think most of those viewers come from?
Until you understand what the discussions is about and why Korean IP addresses are actually banned you should stop talking.
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On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about.
Does being excluded from the benefits of being in the korean community due to his physical location for 5 years make him a part of the Korean community?
Is streaming hours upon hours of rare A level gaming for a foreign community and interacting with them on stream not enough to let him into our tight-knit community?
Isn't the purpose of the TSL to provide a competition for those who can not indulge in the competitive infrastructures already present in countries like Korea and China? Nongmin does not get any benefits from being Korean at all.
And I'm just taking you on in your definition of korean now, even though I gave a huge explanation in my post of what being "Korean" implied.
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On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him?
It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute.
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On November 12 2009 07:42 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute.
Then it's like a Kespa rule.
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On November 12 2009 07:42 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute.
It's not racist, it's hypocritical. Look at the intent behind the rule.
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On November 12 2009 07:42 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute.
Fortunately, banning anyone of Korean nationality is not the rule.
Banning Korean IP addresses however, is. This rule has been shown clearly not to be absolute, after all, Idra is participating in this TSL, and participated in the last one as well.
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On November 12 2009 07:42 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute.
Since when the hell are rules never up to interpretation?! Man if we did the same thing with laws we would never change anything EVER.
Rules are made with an intent behind them. This rule wasn't made simply to exclude every Korean national in the world regardless of location, skill, or interaction with the community. It was made because Korean culture (IN KOREA) facilitates the production of A+ level gamers with a startling regularity. This is why...that is the unfair advantage not just because they are Korean.
Nongmin has lived in the US for 4 years and counting, went to school here, and was generally not exposed to the "I can be a big shot playing SC) culture that he would have been had he lived in Korea.
This rule wasn't made to exclude Koreans just because they are Korean, get it through your head. Unfortunately for you the rule is actually NO KOREAN IP ADDRESSES. Why do you think Idra has been brought up constantly in this thread?
He plays from Korea...with all the advantages the Korean culture over there as well. Think about it for awhile.
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On November 12 2009 07:46 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:42 Holgerius wrote:On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute. Fortunately, banning anyone of Korean nationality is not the rule. Banning Korean IP addresses however, is. This rule has been shown clearly not to be absolute, after all, Idra is participating in this TSL, and participated in the last one as well.
Yep was looking through the TSL rules, ( http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules ) it's the older one, nowhere does it say that a Korean is not allowed to play. It just says no Korean IP address.
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On November 12 2009 07:36 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about. You are infuriating. Your post is so far off the mark that I have the real urge to strangle you. Read the bold part again. That is EXACTLY what we are discussing and that is EXACTLY why Koreans are banned from TSL. You would be hard pressed to find an A+ Foreigner out there at all (if there really is one...) but you can find A+ Koreans with a decent regularity and not all of them are even semi-pros...some of them are just damn good. The environment over there provides a ton of incentives for people to get extremely good at SC...something that Nongmin wasn't a part of because he was IN THE UNITED STATES GOING TO HIGH SCHOOL. You don't have to post in this forum to be part of the community because every time Nongmin streams he has at the very least 200-240 viewers and he regularly interacts with the people that watch him, answering questions and explaining strategies. Where do you think most of those viewers come from? Until you understand what the discussions is about and why Korean IP addresses are actually banned you should stop talking.
Um, no. Koreans are not banned because they have the capacity to milk foreign tourny's [though that as an influence im sure], but because theres a split between the foreign community, the Chinese community, and the "the rest" [aka foreign] community. I'm against nogrim getting in the tourny because I have little doubt that hes not more connected in a variety of ways, to Korea, more so than he is any Foreign country he may reside in for schooling.
And stop talking out of your ass.
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Nongmin simply isn't a foreigner. It has nothing to do with him being Korean either. He doesn't participate in our clan leagues or individual leagues.
Why now, 5 years after being in the USA, does he want to compete against other foreigners? Ret and Idra, before their moves to Korea, were competing among other "foreign" players in various leagues. While their participation in the TSL can be debated, their situations are entirely different. What makes Nongmin a foreigner? He lived in the USA? He streamed for TL? Besides that, it would be very hard to consider him a foreigner since he does not compete among us like Idra and ret have in the past. I don't see nongmin winning Gosucups(lol), clanleagues with X clan, or any other foreign individual/clan tournaments.
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On November 12 2009 07:48 yhnmk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:36 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about. You are infuriating. Your post is so far off the mark that I have the real urge to strangle you. Read the bold part again. That is EXACTLY what we are discussing and that is EXACTLY why Koreans are banned from TSL. You would be hard pressed to find an A+ Foreigner out there at all (if there really is one...) but you can find A+ Koreans with a decent regularity and not all of them are even semi-pros...some of them are just damn good. The environment over there provides a ton of incentives for people to get extremely good at SC...something that Nongmin wasn't a part of because he was IN THE UNITED STATES GOING TO HIGH SCHOOL. You don't have to post in this forum to be part of the community because every time Nongmin streams he has at the very least 200-240 viewers and he regularly interacts with the people that watch him, answering questions and explaining strategies. Where do you think most of those viewers come from? Until you understand what the discussions is about and why Korean IP addresses are actually banned you should stop talking. Um, no. Koreans are not banned because they have the capacity to milk foreign tourny's [though that as an influence im sure], but because theres a split between the foreign community, the Chinese community, and the "the rest" [aka foreign] community. I'm against nogrim getting in the tourny because I have little doubt that hes not more connected in a variety of ways, to Korea, more so than he is any Foreign country he may reside in for schooling. And stop talking out of your ass.
Prove it.
No really, prove it. Even if this were the case I was unaware it was impossible to be a part of multiple communities.
Jesus christ man TL is not a secret club house that denies membership to people because they might be in other communities. Do you think that if Flash all of a sudden took interest in this website and started to really interact with the community we'd tell him "Get the fuck out man, you're part of the Korean community."
No...we wouldn't.
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Netherlands4524 Posts
People should stop bringing me and idra into this.
Because me/Idra are in Korea? nongmin should be allowed? It's a skewed arguement. What if me/Idra never went to Korea? would it change nongmin's case?
The question should be weather a person with korean nationality who is an amateur has spend some time abroad is allowed to play in TSL2.
Weather or not Idra/me should play in this is a totally different arguement, yet a valid one. On top of that bringing me up just seems silly right now because im essentially a tourist in Korea that has lived in a progaming house for 6 days and played for 4 of those and spent 2,5 week in korea drinking/hanging out.
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On November 12 2009 07:48 yhnmk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:36 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about. You are infuriating. Your post is so far off the mark that I have the real urge to strangle you. Read the bold part again. That is EXACTLY what we are discussing and that is EXACTLY why Koreans are banned from TSL. You would be hard pressed to find an A+ Foreigner out there at all (if there really is one...) but you can find A+ Koreans with a decent regularity and not all of them are even semi-pros...some of them are just damn good. The environment over there provides a ton of incentives for people to get extremely good at SC...something that Nongmin wasn't a part of because he was IN THE UNITED STATES GOING TO HIGH SCHOOL. You don't have to post in this forum to be part of the community because every time Nongmin streams he has at the very least 200-240 viewers and he regularly interacts with the people that watch him, answering questions and explaining strategies. Where do you think most of those viewers come from? Until you understand what the discussions is about and why Korean IP addresses are actually banned you should stop talking. Um, no. Koreans are not banned because they have the capacity to milk foreign tourny's [though that as an influence im sure], but because theres a split between the foreign community, the Chinese community, and the "the rest" [aka foreign] community. I'm against nogrim getting in the tourny because I have little doubt that hes not more connected in a variety of ways, to Korea, more so than he is any Foreign country he may reside in for schooling. And stop talking out of your ass.
And to point it out... yet again... Idra and Ret are far more connected to the Korean community than nongmin could be. They LIVE and TRAIN in Korea. Nongmin is a student who has been attending highschool here for four years!
And stop talking out of your ass.
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On November 12 2009 07:48 yhnmk wrote:
Um, no. Koreans are not banned because they have the capacity to milk foreign tourny's [though that as an influence im sure], but because theres a split between the foreign community, the Chinese community, and the "the rest" [aka foreign] community. I'm against nogrim getting in the tourny because I have little doubt that hes not more connected in a variety of ways, to Korea, more so than he is any Foreign country he may reside in for schooling.
And stop talking out of your ass.
Ok then, please ban the Russian community as well as the Polish community since they are huge communities that rarely interact with us "foreigners" here at teamliquid.
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On November 12 2009 07:51 ret wrote:
People should stop bringing me and idra into this.
Because me/Idra are in Korea? nongmin should be allowed? It's a skewed arguement. What if me/Idra never went to Korea? would it change nongmin's case?
The question should be weather a person with korean nationality who has spend some time abroad is allowed to play in TSL2.
Weather or not Idra/me should play in this is a totally different arguement. On top of that bringing me up just seems silly right now because im essentially a tourist in Korea that has lived in a progaming house for 6 days and played for 4 and spent 2,5 week in korea drinking/hanging out.
No korean IP's = no ret and no idra.
if you weren't allowed to play i would support Nong not playing.
so basically yes it would change Nong's case.
do you have korean IP address ? well the answer to that + the rules makes it clear to who relies on the past instead of the rules.
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On November 12 2009 07:52 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:48 yhnmk wrote:On November 12 2009 07:36 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about. You are infuriating. Your post is so far off the mark that I have the real urge to strangle you. Read the bold part again. That is EXACTLY what we are discussing and that is EXACTLY why Koreans are banned from TSL. You would be hard pressed to find an A+ Foreigner out there at all (if there really is one...) but you can find A+ Koreans with a decent regularity and not all of them are even semi-pros...some of them are just damn good. The environment over there provides a ton of incentives for people to get extremely good at SC...something that Nongmin wasn't a part of because he was IN THE UNITED STATES GOING TO HIGH SCHOOL. You don't have to post in this forum to be part of the community because every time Nongmin streams he has at the very least 200-240 viewers and he regularly interacts with the people that watch him, answering questions and explaining strategies. Where do you think most of those viewers come from? Until you understand what the discussions is about and why Korean IP addresses are actually banned you should stop talking. Um, no. Koreans are not banned because they have the capacity to milk foreign tourny's [though that as an influence im sure], but because theres a split between the foreign community, the Chinese community, and the "the rest" [aka foreign] community. I'm against nogrim getting in the tourny because I have little doubt that hes not more connected in a variety of ways, to Korea, more so than he is any Foreign country he may reside in for schooling. And stop talking out of your ass. And to point it out... yet again... Idra and Ret are far more connected to the Korean community than nongmin could be. They LIVE and TRAIN in Korea. Nongmin is a student who has been attending highschool here for four years!
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On November 12 2009 07:51 ret wrote:
People should stop bringing me and idra into this.
Because me/Idra are in Korea? nongmin should be allowed? It's a skewed arguement. What if me/Idra never went to Korea? would it change nongmin's case?
Well yea it would change Nongmin's case.
Nongmin is about to head back to Korea for a few months before heading back to the USA for college. This would force him to play on a Korean IP address for the duration of the tournament.
The big deal here is that not only is Nongmin a part of the foreign community but that he was denied entrance on the rule that there are no Korean IP addresses allowed in the tournament.
You haven't been brought up much because everyone knows you haven't been there long but I mean if you played in the TSL where would you be playing from?
Probably a Korean IP address right?
Same thing with Idra.
They bent the rules with you is why this discussion is taking place. If Idra had never been allowed to play from his Korean IP address than the rule would still be absolute and then no one would have a leg to stand on.
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Netherlands4524 Posts
I didn't know about the Korean IP Adress rule. I still don't think you can compare Idra to nongmin. One has american nationality and one has korean. What stops other korean amateurs from participating if nongmin is allowed? Ones that have stayed abroad for a certain period of time but then went back to korea and always kept in touch with the game?
Btw I'd like to note I'm completly neutral on this issue. Nongmin has contributed a lot with his stream and I wouldn't mind seeing him participate. Just think you guys are making wrong arguements by bringing up idra and to a lesser extent me.
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On November 12 2009 07:57 ret wrote:
I didn't know about the Korean IP Adress rule. I still don't think you can compare Idra to nongmin. One has american nationality and one has korean. What stops other korean amateurs from participating if nongmin is allowed?
Btw I'd like to note I'm completly neutral on this issue. Just think you guys are making wrong arguements by bringing up idra and to a lesser extent me.
TSL #1 rules http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules
I don't think they have posted an updated or new version of their rules yet.
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On November 12 2009 07:57 ret wrote:
I didn't know about the Korean IP Adress rule. I still don't think you can compare Idra to nongmin. One has american nationality and one has korean.
Btw I'd like to note I'm completly neutral on this issue.
1 can break the rules the other can't ?
i lost you around the CAN break the rules part...
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On November 12 2009 07:50 syzygy wrote:
Nongmin simply isn't a foreigner. It has nothing to do with him being Korean either. He doesn't participate in our clan leagues or individual leagues.
Why now, 5 years after being in the USA, does he want to compete against other foreigners? Ret and Idra, before their moves to Korea, were competing among other "foreign" players in various leagues. While their participation in the TSL can be debated, their situations are entirely different. What makes Nongmin a foreigner? He lived in the USA? He streamed for TL? Besides that, it would be very hard to consider him a foreigner since he does not compete among us like Idra and ret have in the past. I don't see nongmin winning Gosucups(lol), clanleagues with X clan, or any other foreign individual/clan tournaments.
seriously?
since when did the definition of foreigner include competing in tournaments before?
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Netherlands4524 Posts
At the time Idra's case was reviewed and an exception was made based on circumstances surrounding Idra. Perhaps that should be re-evualated, perhaps not.
Nongmin is totally different case with different factors involved.
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the idra issue establishes precedent for others with nong to be allowed to play. The question is would this even be brought up if he didnt have to go back to korea for a short time before college. There are a lot of individuals that were born in korea that now live in the US that play sc, the nationality shouldn't be and (i dont think is) the issue here. Its the IP add
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On November 12 2009 07:57 ret wrote:
I didn't know about the Korean IP Adress rule. I still don't think you can compare Idra to nongmin. One has american nationality and one has korean. What stops other korean amateurs from participating if nongmin is allowed? Ones that have stayed abroad for a certain period of time but then went back to korea and always kept in touch with the game?
Btw I'd like to note I'm completly neutral on this issue. Nongmin has contributed a lot with his stream and I wouldn't mind seeing him participate. Just think you guys are making wrong arguements by bringing up idra and to a lesser extent me.
Read the edit at the bottom. I'm asking for an exception for nongmin, just like there's been an exception for Idra and you. That leaves all the other korean amateurs still bound to the rule, nongmin being an exception for the reasons statedin the OP. If you read the thread, you will find out that nationality shouldn't even be an issue.
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On November 12 2009 07:57 ret wrote:
I didn't know about the Korean IP Adress rule. I still don't think you can compare Idra to nongmin. One has american nationality and one has korean. What stops other korean amateurs from participating if nongmin is allowed? Ones that have stayed abroad for a certain period of time but then went back to korea and always kept in touch with the game?
Well what stops other pro-gamers from competing if Idra is allowed to?
Idra is an exception because he is part of the dubbed "foreign community".
Nongmin, having lived in the US for four years, having streamed extensively on the site, and having been a helping hand to many people, can also be dubbed as part of the "foreign community" due to his participation on our forums and his lack of training abroad in Korea. He also is only temporarily staying in Korea (for a few months), and moving back to the US for college.
Therefore, why can't Nongmin be an exception under the same circumstances that Idra is?
Now this would be an entirely different case if Idra was not allowed in the tournament, but to grant an exception for him begs an outcry under the above circumstances.
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just to clean things up:
the rule we are talking about says: no korean ip is allowed.
there are no exceptions to this rule. non.
why idra comes into play ? this rule was broken to let him play.
what does that concern idra/ret/nongmin this tsl2 ?
all of those 3 are in korea the tournament happens. for ret/idra rules will be broken again.
now comes nongmin into play, who graduated highschool (if im right) in and is living in usa since years but born in korea, and travels for vacancy to korea. in tournament time.
now ret/idra get the rule broken again, reasons are pending and how that even is possible is matter to subject. so why now not for nongmin.
some thoughts:
we have korean and foreing community. they are in most parts separated. kespa opened and invited idra. so hes part of both communities somehow. ret followed up. other way around nongmin born in korea now lives in usa. he was part of korean community, now he is part of foreign community, training here and there in last 4 years he comes to the skill he is at.
now ret and idra, foreingners in korean community get a rule break set
in my oppinion, nongmin a korean in foreign community should get the rule break to.
this is just how it has to come in my oppion. kespa did the first step, by letting in idra. now its teamliquids turn to make the second step and let nongmin into the foreing community. sadly this is a decision by the heads, not the community itself. the communitys opinion is plain clear.
i think we should take care of this possibillity as community same as their coordinators.
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Braavos36402 Posts
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, a lot by the OP and a lot by people making assumptions about our intentions. We're trying to do what's best for the TSL and what's best for Nongmin. Please, do not jump to conclusions.
Much like the 100 posts about the ICCup Season ending in the middle of our ladder, please trust our judgment that this situation will be resolved happily for everyone.
In a word: relax.
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Braavos36402 Posts
Thread locked until our official announcement on TSL Player Eligibility.
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EPT
