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Active: 5087 users

Allow Nongmin in TSL2

Forum Index > TSL2 Forum
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ketomai
Profile Joined June 2007
United States2789 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-11 21:39:19
November 11 2009 20:19 GMT
#1
Nongmin, aka nongminzerg on team liquid, aka the A Rank Zerg who streams for all of team liquid to enjoy has recently been denied participation in the upcoming TSL2. Nongmin was set to compete in the TSL2, but upon PM’ing Hot_Bid he was notified that he would NOT be allowed to participate in the TSL 2. I don’t have full details of that PM, however, from the information I gathered from nongmin’s comments, he will not be allowed to participate mainly because he will be moving to Korea tomorrow for several months before coming back to the US coupled with the fact that he is Korean. This is terrible luck for nongmin, who has not been able to participate in any of the foreign events, because not only was he unable to participate in the ASL due to school reasons during the exact months that it happened, but now, after staying the United States for 4+ years and gracing 250+ viewers at a time with his First Person View almost every day excluding the one month break, he will be unable to participate in an event hosted by the very community that he has helped so much due to a few short months that he must return to Korea. All that he has done for team liquid alone should validate giving him a chance to be rewarded for his hundreds of hours of service, but even ignoring that, there is absolutely no reason he should not be allowed to participate in the TSL2.

For those you unfamiliar with nongmin’s background and where he was geographically for the past few years, I will give a brief history. Nongmin moved here 4 years ago in order to attend high school in the United States, like many other Korean students. He just recently started streaming several months ago after being led to team liquid for the first time following his senior year in high school (4th and last year). Currently, nongmin has decided to take a break before entering university for various, unimportant reasons (but if you must know, it was forced upon him due to a temporary stomach illness). Because he is no longer attending school in the United States, there is little need for him to stay here until he hopefully begins University at John Hopkins, and therefore, he or his parents decided that it would be best to go back to Korea for those months in between.

The main objection is that he will be in Korea during the time of the TSL2, however, you have to look at the complete context. He’s not just any Korean in Korea, he is a student staying in America for 4+ years and happens to be leaving for the first time in those 4+ years for a few measly months in order to prepare himself for the schooling that he originally came to the US. Now, why are Koreans not allowed in the TSL2? The main reason, we all know, is because Koreans are just too damn good. However, that can’t be used as a legitimate argument, as ‘good’ is arbitrary and generalizing a whole nation into that category would be ludicrous. So, instead, we officially blame it on the REASON Koreans are so good, and that is the presence of organized leagues, sponsors, and teams in Korea. After the Chinese also got these accommodations, their participation in foreign leagues was also in the air. That reason is legitimate. The TSL2 and other foreigner tournaments are to develop the underdeveloped foreigner scene. Koreans don’t need more prize money because they have two prestigious tournaments with prize pools of 20k or more along with salaries for pro gamers. However, the only one of these criteria that nongmin meets is that he his nationality is Korean, the one reason we can not hold against him. Once again, he has not been in Korea for almost 4+ years, therefore, he has not had a chance to cash in on any tournament or leagues that are physically present in Korea. If he can not participate in foreigner tournaments, where can he compete? Traveling to Korea for a couple months will not allow him to take advantage of all the things Korea has to offer because he has been a resident of the US since 2005, therefore, cutting him from the TSL2 for such a simplistic reason is just semantics.

The other, less common, objection that I can see coming up is that since he is in Korea, he will lag. This issue should be nonexistent because not only are non-Korean players from places equally or further from the majority of the players that are participating (US) allowed to compete, but Idra and Ret, who are currently physically in Korea, will be allowed to compete (I’m assuming they will be allowed to compete due to Idra’s participation in the original TSL), which should contradict this reason completely.

Once again, nongmin already has a legitimate claim to participation in the TSL even without his immense contributions to team liquid. However, hundreds of hours of streaming of high level play we rarely see in FPView is just too big to ignore. He is one of best , if not THE best streamer for team liquid, drawing hundreds of viewers every time he streams, and many more who can’t initially view it first hand through On-Demand VODS. In his time with team liquid streaming, he has already streamed 3 accounts of his climbing to A- and 1 climbing to A in this season alone. The sheer amount of games he has to play to be able to do this is extraordinary, however, not only did he get all of those ranks, he streamed almost every single game. Viewers who saw one of his accounts streaming at D one day, would come back the next day to see it streaming at B+, and then the next day, A-. This is discounting the A level games he gave us last season his team liquid debut before his one month break. Even without doing anything but streaming, he has helped a wide number of people improve their game, but not only has he done that, he also has answered every single question often asked in his channel. Team liquid viewers watching his stream benefit enormously from it. While I can’t back it up, I personally have gained 2 iccup ranks in the months that he started streaming until now. His stream was a large part of my improvement, and I know I am not alone.

While I know that we at team liquid have a standard for strictly adhering to rules, I think making a small exception for nongmin should not be out of the question, and instead granted. He violates the rule of living in Korea in name only as he does not draw any of the benefits from actually being there. In addition, he has helped multitudes of people improve their game or just pass time in the evenings through his hundreds of hours of streaming. Tournaments such as ASL have recently allowed for Koreans living in America such as SCan and JST-Sexy to compete, who are both in similar situation as nongmin, and hopefully team liquid will follow suit and follow the precedent ASL set, especially in the case of nongmin a valuable member of the Teamliquid Community.



edit: Clarifications: Nongmin is not a US citizen, nor does he have a Green card, but that is not uncommon even after 4 years because getting legal citizenship is a long process. What I'm trying to say is to allow an exception for nongmin through common sense, taking into account the context surrounding nongmin (his immense contribution + his is untimely departure).
ketomai
Profile Joined June 2007
United States2789 Posts
November 11 2009 20:20 GMT
#2
[image loading]

Poll: Should Nongmin be allowed to participate in the TSL2?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
n3m0
Profile Joined January 2007
Portugal247 Posts
November 11 2009 20:23 GMT
#3
Definetly yes!
Former WGT Clan League Admin - Former Portugal A team manager - Former member of MgZ) / iG. / LRM) - Starcraft Broodwar
BaltA
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Norway849 Posts
November 11 2009 20:23 GMT
#4
Nice! YES.. YES AND YES
Zeburial
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Sweden1126 Posts
November 11 2009 20:24 GMT
#5
GO NONGMIN!!! <3
Empires are not brought down by outside forces - they are destroyed by weaknesses from within
Amnesia
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3818 Posts
November 11 2009 20:25 GMT
#6
Yes...
Ganfei
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Taiwan1439 Posts
November 11 2009 20:27 GMT
#7
I want to see him participate, but if the TL staff are adamantly against it then I personally am not going to care that much
You are crushing me like a cheese sandwich
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8751 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-11 20:31:09
November 11 2009 20:27 GMT
#8
Feedback Forum

or PM a mod

Convincing the forum-goers of TL.net isn't helpful. Even if it was, you'd want the PokerStrategy TSL forum
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
IceCube
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Croatia1403 Posts
November 11 2009 20:27 GMT
#9
Ofc yes!
Nong ftw!
Forever Vulture.. :(
TheDoctor
Profile Joined August 2009
66 Posts
November 11 2009 20:28 GMT
#10
Allow Nongmin PLEASE, hes so fun to watch, and i would love watching him go through the tsl brackets!!! Hes so mannered too!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!
A Class Rank yo
okum
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
France5779 Posts
November 11 2009 20:28 GMT
#11
Decisions, decisions.

[image loading]

Poll: Do you want free candy?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Flash fan before it was cool | Coiner of "jangbang"
kiendudu
Profile Joined May 2008
Netherlands273 Posts
November 11 2009 20:28 GMT
#12
well said , I think it is fair enough to let him in
^^
meeple
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada10211 Posts
November 11 2009 20:29 GMT
#13
Possibly... it becomes a fine line to tread when we start deciding which Koreans to allow to compete in foreigner events. Personally I think he should be allowed to compete... but I can see why they wouldn't allow him to. Its so much easier to manage if you have a rule that disallows Koreans from participating.
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
November 11 2009 20:30 GMT
#14
Idra has been living in Korea for a entire year. You can't use living in Korea as a argument for why he should not be allowed to play. Since Nongmin lived in America for the last 4 years, you might as well consider him a American.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
NeoOmega
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States495 Posts
November 11 2009 20:31 GMT
#15
I have a feeling people are only voting yes because he streams when that really has nothing to do with the situation. Competing in TSL has nothing with contribution to this community. At the same time I'm torn because he is in the middle of two starcraft communities and it would be a shame for him to be rejected by both. Im glad its not my decision.
VabuDeltaKaiser
Profile Joined April 2009
Germany1107 Posts
November 11 2009 20:36 GMT
#16
considering training situation and tourney situation nongmin has been a korean foreigner for the last years and on that is his skill and abillities as a player are based.

and an active member of the foreign community traveling to korea for vacancy after years should be considered korean foreigner allowed to play starcraft; same as foreign korean progamer/ foreign player from korea are allowed that is ret and idra. period.
my smiley drinks green tea. works. just, the commercial investments are lower.
igotmyown
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4291 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-11 20:40:07
November 11 2009 20:39 GMT
#17
How about he plays show matches with some of the finalists? You could put up mini-prizes if you like, kind of like a liquibition.
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
November 11 2009 20:40 GMT
#18
On November 12 2009 05:30 T.O.P. wrote:
Idra has been living in Korea for a entire year. You can't use living in Korea as a argument for why he should not be allowed to play. Since Nongmin lived in America for the last 4 years, you might as well consider him a American.

It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. By your logic Idra would indeed not be allowed to play; if we consider Nongmin to be American for living in America, then Idra is a Korean for living in Korea.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
Aresien
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United Kingdom305 Posts
November 11 2009 20:40 GMT
#19
Not letting Nongmin play, while letting in Idra who recieves 24/7 training in the CJ Entus house seems absolutely absurd.

It's just a bit silly when Nongmin hasn't recieved the training and has been at school in America for the past 5 years. Very well argued OP as well, nice one
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
November 11 2009 20:40 GMT
#20
op do you mind dividing up your paragraphs
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