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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:15 WARMASTER.v13 wrote: Do the other competitors in TSL mind if Nongmin plays? Its not foreign players to decide (unless all top players wont participate TSL2 as protest) but admins. If I would be top foreign player and I would see competition (greatly reducing winning first place) of course I would not wanna see nongmin entering TSL2. If publicly asked I would say yes (let him participate) to not give bad image. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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jeddus
United States832 Posts
JF vs. Nongmin the day before it starts, just to celebrate high level play. TSL should be about celebrating high level play. | ||
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maleum
Poland8 Posts
Ret hasn't had time to gain anything from his stay, so I'd be fair to let him participate. | ||
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VabuDeltaKaiser
Germany1107 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:09 Hapahauli wrote: You act as if it was hard: CJ Entus house much? omg you got it ? i was just saying letting idra play last tsl was AGAINST the rules. in the rules there are no exceptions, with terms like "foreigner"/korean/nonkorean/progamer. so make an exception for idra is breaking a rule. and it will be done again this year with idra and ret, who both will have such an korean ip. why breaking rules ? why not make better ones ? why decide against rules in one case that way, in another case the other way ? hm... | ||
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JohnBall
Brazil1272 Posts
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yhnmk
Canada630 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:22 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote: omg you got it ? i was just saying letting idra play last tsl was AGAINST the rules. in the rules there are no exceptions, with terms like "foreigner"/korean/nonkorean/progamer. so make an exception for idra is breaking a rule. and it will be done again this year with idra and ret, who both will have such an korean ip. why breaking rules ? why not make better ones ? why decide against rules in one case that way, in another case the other way ? hm... Oh. Whoops. Sorry bout that... Pretty easy to misread that though, a couple of people took it the other way =O | ||
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holyone
Portugal43 Posts
Why can  Ret and  IdrA play ? because they are pro-gamers with the right nationality?Nong will be facing pro-gamers and amateurs like himself and yet since he is korean (living in us for >4y), he is out? Basically pro-gamers that aren't korean but play 24/7 has a job are allowed and a korean that doesn't even play in Korea can't? If you don't allow nong to play aren't you being just a "little" bit hypocrite ? I mean you allow IdrA (pro player in Korea) to play and don't allow a korean (living in the US) amateur player to play?My 5 cents. ps. i hate unfairness and this is one of those cases. | ||
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nongminzerg
United States15 Posts
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ketomai
United States2789 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote: Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote: Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? | ||
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yhnmk
Canada630 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote: We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about.I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. | ||
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maleum
Poland8 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote: lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. Idra has access to a professional training environment, Nongmin does not. How is that in any way fair? | ||
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gumbum8
United States721 Posts
Its not like we're running some kind of Olympic games here, while the rules must be followed, sometimes reason must come first (its in the constitution, the "elastic clause"). Again, talk here means nothing. I just want to tell everyone in favor of nong to go to the complaints thread or wherever Nony told us to go. | ||
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holyone
Portugal43 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:32 maleum wrote: Idra has access to a professional training environment, Nongmin does not. How is that in any way fair? Because TL admins (most at least) are US citizens and want idra to win even if it makes them remove potential threats on the player ranks? If pro-gamers aren't allowed to play then i will feel like nong can't play because there will be no rule breaking... | ||
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maleum
Poland8 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:33 gumbum8 wrote: The guy's streamed hours upon hours of games, and I'm sure hundreds of people (including me) have learned something from his stream. Whether you have learned or not, he has contributed a lot to our streaming community. That is not really relevant to him being allowed or not. While he does a great service to the community, it does not automatically make him eligible for participation. However, I think it's bloody bs that Idra would get to participate and Nong would not. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote: lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about. You are infuriating. Your post is so far off the mark that I have the real urge to strangle you. Read the bold part again. That is EXACTLY what we are discussing and that is EXACTLY why Koreans are banned from TSL. You would be hard pressed to find an A+ Foreigner out there at all (if there really is one...) but you can find A+ Koreans with a decent regularity and not all of them are even semi-pros...some of them are just damn good. The environment over there provides a ton of incentives for people to get extremely good at SC...something that Nongmin wasn't a part of because he was IN THE UNITED STATES GOING TO HIGH SCHOOL. You don't have to post in this forum to be part of the community because every time Nongmin streams he has at the very least 200-240 viewers and he regularly interacts with the people that watch him, answering questions and explaining strategies. Where do you think most of those viewers come from? Until you understand what the discussions is about and why Korean IP addresses are actually banned you should stop talking. | ||
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ketomai
United States2789 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote: lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about. Does being excluded from the benefits of being in the korean community due to his physical location for 5 years make him a part of the Korean community? Is streaming hours upon hours of rare A level gaming for a foreign community and interacting with them on stream not enough to let him into our tight-knit community? Isn't the purpose of the TSL to provide a competition for those who can not indulge in the competitive infrastructures already present in countries like Korea and China? Nongmin does not get any benefits from being Korean at all. And I'm just taking you on in your definition of korean now, even though I gave a huge explanation in my post of what being "Korean" implied. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote: Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute. | ||
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