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On November 12 2009 07:42 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute.
Then it's like a Kespa rule.
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On November 12 2009 07:42 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute.
It's not racist, it's hypocritical. Look at the intent behind the rule.
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On November 12 2009 07:42 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute.
Fortunately, banning anyone of Korean nationality is not the rule.
Banning Korean IP addresses however, is. This rule has been shown clearly not to be absolute, after all, Idra is participating in this TSL, and participated in the last one as well.
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On November 12 2009 07:42 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute.
Since when the hell are rules never up to interpretation?! Man if we did the same thing with laws we would never change anything EVER.
Rules are made with an intent behind them. This rule wasn't made simply to exclude every Korean national in the world regardless of location, skill, or interaction with the community. It was made because Korean culture (IN KOREA) facilitates the production of A+ level gamers with a startling regularity. This is why...that is the unfair advantage not just because they are Korean.
Nongmin has lived in the US for 4 years and counting, went to school here, and was generally not exposed to the "I can be a big shot playing SC) culture that he would have been had he lived in Korea.
This rule wasn't made to exclude Koreans just because they are Korean, get it through your head. Unfortunately for you the rule is actually NO KOREAN IP ADDRESSES. Why do you think Idra has been brought up constantly in this thread?
He plays from Korea...with all the advantages the Korean culture over there as well. Think about it for awhile.
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On November 12 2009 07:46 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:42 Holgerius wrote:On November 12 2009 07:29 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:21 Holgerius wrote:
Stop talking about racism. Is the Swedish football association racist because they don't allow people of other nationalities to play for the Swedish national team? Your comparison kinda fails. So yea Swedish nationals can play for the Swedish team. Ok fair enough. Only people in the foreigner community can play in the TSL. Also fair enough. Now why isn't Nongmin a part of the foreign community? If your answer is based on the mere fact that he has Korean than yea... that pretty much is racist. The problem here is that just being Korean does not exclude someone from being part of the foreign community...implying something like that is pretty ridiculous. I (and many others) personally believe that streaming well over 1200 games and routinely interacting with the people watching his stream allows him "entry" into the foreign community. What else do you even want from him? It's not fucking racist. Look, you have to draw a line somewhere, right? The easiest and most fair way is to simply prohibit anyone of Korean nationality. A rule should not be up for interpretation, it should be absolute. Fortunately, banning anyone of Korean nationality is not the rule. Banning Korean IP addresses however, is. This rule has been shown clearly not to be absolute, after all, Idra is participating in this TSL, and participated in the last one as well.
Yep was looking through the TSL rules, ( http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules ) it's the older one, nowhere does it say that a Korean is not allowed to play. It just says no Korean IP address.
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On November 12 2009 07:36 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about. You are infuriating. Your post is so far off the mark that I have the real urge to strangle you. Read the bold part again. That is EXACTLY what we are discussing and that is EXACTLY why Koreans are banned from TSL. You would be hard pressed to find an A+ Foreigner out there at all (if there really is one...) but you can find A+ Koreans with a decent regularity and not all of them are even semi-pros...some of them are just damn good. The environment over there provides a ton of incentives for people to get extremely good at SC...something that Nongmin wasn't a part of because he was IN THE UNITED STATES GOING TO HIGH SCHOOL. You don't have to post in this forum to be part of the community because every time Nongmin streams he has at the very least 200-240 viewers and he regularly interacts with the people that watch him, answering questions and explaining strategies. Where do you think most of those viewers come from? Until you understand what the discussions is about and why Korean IP addresses are actually banned you should stop talking.
Um, no. Koreans are not banned because they have the capacity to milk foreign tourny's [though that as an influence im sure], but because theres a split between the foreign community, the Chinese community, and the "the rest" [aka foreign] community. I'm against nogrim getting in the tourny because I have little doubt that hes not more connected in a variety of ways, to Korea, more so than he is any Foreign country he may reside in for schooling.
And stop talking out of your ass.
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Nongmin simply isn't a foreigner. It has nothing to do with him being Korean either. He doesn't participate in our clan leagues or individual leagues.
Why now, 5 years after being in the USA, does he want to compete against other foreigners? Ret and Idra, before their moves to Korea, were competing among other "foreign" players in various leagues. While their participation in the TSL can be debated, their situations are entirely different. What makes Nongmin a foreigner? He lived in the USA? He streamed for TL? Besides that, it would be very hard to consider him a foreigner since he does not compete among us like Idra and ret have in the past. I don't see nongmin winning Gosucups(lol), clanleagues with X clan, or any other foreign individual/clan tournaments.
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On November 12 2009 07:48 yhnmk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:36 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about. You are infuriating. Your post is so far off the mark that I have the real urge to strangle you. Read the bold part again. That is EXACTLY what we are discussing and that is EXACTLY why Koreans are banned from TSL. You would be hard pressed to find an A+ Foreigner out there at all (if there really is one...) but you can find A+ Koreans with a decent regularity and not all of them are even semi-pros...some of them are just damn good. The environment over there provides a ton of incentives for people to get extremely good at SC...something that Nongmin wasn't a part of because he was IN THE UNITED STATES GOING TO HIGH SCHOOL. You don't have to post in this forum to be part of the community because every time Nongmin streams he has at the very least 200-240 viewers and he regularly interacts with the people that watch him, answering questions and explaining strategies. Where do you think most of those viewers come from? Until you understand what the discussions is about and why Korean IP addresses are actually banned you should stop talking. Um, no. Koreans are not banned because they have the capacity to milk foreign tourny's [though that as an influence im sure], but because theres a split between the foreign community, the Chinese community, and the "the rest" [aka foreign] community. I'm against nogrim getting in the tourny because I have little doubt that hes not more connected in a variety of ways, to Korea, more so than he is any Foreign country he may reside in for schooling. And stop talking out of your ass.
Prove it.
No really, prove it. Even if this were the case I was unaware it was impossible to be a part of multiple communities.
Jesus christ man TL is not a secret club house that denies membership to people because they might be in other communities. Do you think that if Flash all of a sudden took interest in this website and started to really interact with the community we'd tell him "Get the fuck out man, you're part of the Korean community."
No...we wouldn't.
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Netherlands4524 Posts
People should stop bringing me and idra into this.
Because me/Idra are in Korea? nongmin should be allowed? It's a skewed arguement. What if me/Idra never went to Korea? would it change nongmin's case?
The question should be weather a person with korean nationality who is an amateur has spend some time abroad is allowed to play in TSL2.
Weather or not Idra/me should play in this is a totally different arguement, yet a valid one. On top of that bringing me up just seems silly right now because im essentially a tourist in Korea that has lived in a progaming house for 6 days and played for 4 of those and spent 2,5 week in korea drinking/hanging out.
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On November 12 2009 07:48 yhnmk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:36 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about. You are infuriating. Your post is so far off the mark that I have the real urge to strangle you. Read the bold part again. That is EXACTLY what we are discussing and that is EXACTLY why Koreans are banned from TSL. You would be hard pressed to find an A+ Foreigner out there at all (if there really is one...) but you can find A+ Koreans with a decent regularity and not all of them are even semi-pros...some of them are just damn good. The environment over there provides a ton of incentives for people to get extremely good at SC...something that Nongmin wasn't a part of because he was IN THE UNITED STATES GOING TO HIGH SCHOOL. You don't have to post in this forum to be part of the community because every time Nongmin streams he has at the very least 200-240 viewers and he regularly interacts with the people that watch him, answering questions and explaining strategies. Where do you think most of those viewers come from? Until you understand what the discussions is about and why Korean IP addresses are actually banned you should stop talking. Um, no. Koreans are not banned because they have the capacity to milk foreign tourny's [though that as an influence im sure], but because theres a split between the foreign community, the Chinese community, and the "the rest" [aka foreign] community. I'm against nogrim getting in the tourny because I have little doubt that hes not more connected in a variety of ways, to Korea, more so than he is any Foreign country he may reside in for schooling. And stop talking out of your ass.
And to point it out... yet again... Idra and Ret are far more connected to the Korean community than nongmin could be. They LIVE and TRAIN in Korea. Nongmin is a student who has been attending highschool here for four years!
And stop talking out of your ass.
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On November 12 2009 07:48 yhnmk wrote:
Um, no. Koreans are not banned because they have the capacity to milk foreign tourny's [though that as an influence im sure], but because theres a split between the foreign community, the Chinese community, and the "the rest" [aka foreign] community. I'm against nogrim getting in the tourny because I have little doubt that hes not more connected in a variety of ways, to Korea, more so than he is any Foreign country he may reside in for schooling.
And stop talking out of your ass.
Ok then, please ban the Russian community as well as the Polish community since they are huge communities that rarely interact with us "foreigners" here at teamliquid.
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On November 12 2009 07:51 ret wrote:
People should stop bringing me and idra into this.
Because me/Idra are in Korea? nongmin should be allowed? It's a skewed arguement. What if me/Idra never went to Korea? would it change nongmin's case?
The question should be weather a person with korean nationality who has spend some time abroad is allowed to play in TSL2.
Weather or not Idra/me should play in this is a totally different arguement. On top of that bringing me up just seems silly right now because im essentially a tourist in Korea that has lived in a progaming house for 6 days and played for 4 and spent 2,5 week in korea drinking/hanging out.
No korean IP's = no ret and no idra.
if you weren't allowed to play i would support Nong not playing.
so basically yes it would change Nong's case.
do you have korean IP address ? well the answer to that + the rules makes it clear to who relies on the past instead of the rules.
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On November 12 2009 07:52 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 07:48 yhnmk wrote:On November 12 2009 07:36 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 07:29 yhnmk wrote:lol its not unfair, its about who they fundamentally are. Nongrim is a Korean who is temporarily residing in a Foreign country, and at the time of the tsl, not even that. Idra and Ret are foreigners, members of the foreign community, who are temporarily residing in Korea. If Nongrim was a permanent resident of America, an argument could be made- but he is not, and therefore is not a member of the foreign community, and...as a result no argument can be mad but that of a bleeding heart. On November 12 2009 07:29 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 07:24 yhnmk wrote:
Uh...because Ret and Idra are foreigners within Korea, just as Nongmin is a Korean in a foreign county [and in this case, not even that]. I hate to reiterate the OP, but being a certain nationality is not a legitimate reason for banning someone from a tournament. Nongmin is not a 'korean' in the sense that he enjoys the benefits that koreans get for having sponsors and tournaments in korea because he has not lived in Korea since 2005. We are not talking about Korean in the sense of professionalism, in which case Ret and Idra would fall under that definition. Were talking about Korean based on culture, activity within the community, etc. A Foriegner is still a Foreigner even if hes living in Korea, because its presumed [accurately] that he will return, a Korean is still a Korean even if hes living in a Foreign country. He's only in America on a temporary basis, he barely posts here, how is he even really involved? If you asked Nogrim what he was, he would not say American [etc] he would say hes a Korean student in America, thats kind of the fundamental split im talking about. You are infuriating. Your post is so far off the mark that I have the real urge to strangle you. Read the bold part again. That is EXACTLY what we are discussing and that is EXACTLY why Koreans are banned from TSL. You would be hard pressed to find an A+ Foreigner out there at all (if there really is one...) but you can find A+ Koreans with a decent regularity and not all of them are even semi-pros...some of them are just damn good. The environment over there provides a ton of incentives for people to get extremely good at SC...something that Nongmin wasn't a part of because he was IN THE UNITED STATES GOING TO HIGH SCHOOL. You don't have to post in this forum to be part of the community because every time Nongmin streams he has at the very least 200-240 viewers and he regularly interacts with the people that watch him, answering questions and explaining strategies. Where do you think most of those viewers come from? Until you understand what the discussions is about and why Korean IP addresses are actually banned you should stop talking. Um, no. Koreans are not banned because they have the capacity to milk foreign tourny's [though that as an influence im sure], but because theres a split between the foreign community, the Chinese community, and the "the rest" [aka foreign] community. I'm against nogrim getting in the tourny because I have little doubt that hes not more connected in a variety of ways, to Korea, more so than he is any Foreign country he may reside in for schooling. And stop talking out of your ass. And to point it out... yet again... Idra and Ret are far more connected to the Korean community than nongmin could be. They LIVE and TRAIN in Korea. Nongmin is a student who has been attending highschool here for four years!
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On November 12 2009 07:51 ret wrote:
People should stop bringing me and idra into this.
Because me/Idra are in Korea? nongmin should be allowed? It's a skewed arguement. What if me/Idra never went to Korea? would it change nongmin's case?
Well yea it would change Nongmin's case.
Nongmin is about to head back to Korea for a few months before heading back to the USA for college. This would force him to play on a Korean IP address for the duration of the tournament.
The big deal here is that not only is Nongmin a part of the foreign community but that he was denied entrance on the rule that there are no Korean IP addresses allowed in the tournament.
You haven't been brought up much because everyone knows you haven't been there long but I mean if you played in the TSL where would you be playing from?
Probably a Korean IP address right?
Same thing with Idra.
They bent the rules with you is why this discussion is taking place. If Idra had never been allowed to play from his Korean IP address than the rule would still be absolute and then no one would have a leg to stand on.
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Netherlands4524 Posts
I didn't know about the Korean IP Adress rule. I still don't think you can compare Idra to nongmin. One has american nationality and one has korean. What stops other korean amateurs from participating if nongmin is allowed? Ones that have stayed abroad for a certain period of time but then went back to korea and always kept in touch with the game?
Btw I'd like to note I'm completly neutral on this issue. Nongmin has contributed a lot with his stream and I wouldn't mind seeing him participate. Just think you guys are making wrong arguements by bringing up idra and to a lesser extent me.
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On November 12 2009 07:57 ret wrote:
I didn't know about the Korean IP Adress rule. I still don't think you can compare Idra to nongmin. One has american nationality and one has korean. What stops other korean amateurs from participating if nongmin is allowed?
Btw I'd like to note I'm completly neutral on this issue. Just think you guys are making wrong arguements by bringing up idra and to a lesser extent me.
TSL #1 rules http://razertsl.teamliquid.net/rules
I don't think they have posted an updated or new version of their rules yet.
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On November 12 2009 07:57 ret wrote:
I didn't know about the Korean IP Adress rule. I still don't think you can compare Idra to nongmin. One has american nationality and one has korean.
Btw I'd like to note I'm completly neutral on this issue.
1 can break the rules the other can't ?
i lost you around the CAN break the rules part...
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On November 12 2009 07:50 syzygy wrote:
Nongmin simply isn't a foreigner. It has nothing to do with him being Korean either. He doesn't participate in our clan leagues or individual leagues.
Why now, 5 years after being in the USA, does he want to compete against other foreigners? Ret and Idra, before their moves to Korea, were competing among other "foreign" players in various leagues. While their participation in the TSL can be debated, their situations are entirely different. What makes Nongmin a foreigner? He lived in the USA? He streamed for TL? Besides that, it would be very hard to consider him a foreigner since he does not compete among us like Idra and ret have in the past. I don't see nongmin winning Gosucups(lol), clanleagues with X clan, or any other foreign individual/clan tournaments.
seriously?
since when did the definition of foreigner include competing in tournaments before?
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Netherlands4524 Posts
At the time Idra's case was reviewed and an exception was made based on circumstances surrounding Idra. Perhaps that should be re-evualated, perhaps not.
Nongmin is totally different case with different factors involved.
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the idra issue establishes precedent for others with nong to be allowed to play. The question is would this even be brought up if he didnt have to go back to korea for a short time before college. There are a lot of individuals that were born in korea that now live in the US that play sc, the nationality shouldn't be and (i dont think is) the issue here. Its the IP add
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EPT
