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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
I don't want to get into a blame game, so I'm not going to put blame on anyone for this issue.
But I really do want to say this. TL needs to really set a strict sense of what "moderation" and "banning" really is. The size of TL has grown to unprecedented lengths, and to be honest, something like this was bound to come up.
I personally think that currently mods are exercising their powers far too often. Of course, serious trolls, advertisers, spammers, and extremely inappropriate behavior (i.e. racism) absolutely need to be stopped and removed.
However, the more I think about this case, the more I think that things related to SC should be left alone. What I mean is that IdrA was clearly flaming Cruncher, but BM has always been a part of the game. It should be Cruncher's responsibility to deal with it like a guy should, especially as a professional SC2 player. IMO TL isn't a playground where everyone needs to hold a parent's hand everywhere they go, but it should be watched over by overseers who make sure nothing gets too out of hand. Moderation like this only incurs more anger and wrath, as people develop personal hatred and animosity towards the power that be.
As for the 90 day ban; I have mixed feelings about this. Firstly, IdrA's tweet was virtually nowhere as bad as I first expected it to be, compared to the punishment. But of course, the targeting of a mod is bad. At the same time, this was outside of TL, and lends to question what power does TL have. If someone did something mean in a LAN party, is that REALLY justification to ban him on a public forum? What if someone had said bad things about a TL mod at a party? All these questions about external issues could be endless. However, one thing is for certain; if TL mods try to continually moderate the outside world, things will get extremely tricky and dangerous for all.
The one thing I really wanted to say is this. This is obviously TL's house, so watch what you say. However, the community that it has fostered has far outgrown the reaches of the walls which once enclosed the original house. We the members of the community are your guests; however, we are not your underlings, we are not owned by TL. And in fact, the community has grown to more than just being "guests"; in essence, through our very contributions to the forums, we are now a part of TL. And though I have absolutely no love whatsoever for IdrA, this time I was disappointed by how the mods dealt with this problem. I'm not saying IdrA should get more leniency because he has helped the foreign SC community grow a lot, though indeed he has. And I'm not saying IdrA should be let off because he helped TL grow a lot, though he has. However, as a member of TL, I think we'd all like to see members be treated nicer by the mods, and given more freedom of speech. Sure, there will always be the really bad people and trolls who spam the site for no reason, but for a professional SC player like IdrA, we all know about him, we know who he is, and nothing he says will really change that. We give him crap all the time, but honestly, we don't kick him out the door because we don't really do that to people we know aren't complete trolls or idiots.
In essence, just saying the mods need to scale back their punishments on things related to SC. Again, for unrelated things like racism trolling spamming etc., by all means. But IdrA is an SC2 pro who loves to take low shots at his opponents, but essentially that's just all bark and he knows it, and only means it like that. He sure is an idiot for constantly doing it, but at the end of the day his job is SC2 and his shots at his opponents are part of the game, and his opponents (also SC2 pros) should be able to handle themselves like professionals, even if their opponent isn't.
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Agree with this, though Greg is a great player and a fun guy this was a bit excessive of him. The twitter update wasn't that insanely bad but still childish and not ok. Also to all the "Cruncher has dual monitors and is cheating etc" all I can say is it doesn't justify Idra's behavior. If it had just been the Cruncher remarks I could see it be justified but the twitter stuff was over the line but 90 might have been a bit much but then again Idra has been a thorn in the tl mods side for quite some time so it's perfectly justified.
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can someone explain to me why he isn't perma banned by now, had this been any other person, they would have, but due to idra being who he is, and his prescence in this community, he somehow gets to be let off with temp bans only?
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Hell .... It's about time!
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TL mod fighting! Keep up the good work TL, just wanted to let you know that your approach to maintaining the best community site in the world is appreciated.
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On May 08 2011 09:11 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 09:04 R0YAL wrote:On May 08 2011 07:32 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:27 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:25 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? You're just being stubborn. It was quite obvious that cruncher knew what idra was doing and he prepared perfectly for it. I don't see how cruncher being connected to idra's stream isn't proof enough. If he wasn't cheating and cared to avoid any accusations he would have closed the stream as soon as he was matched with idra. How is that obvious? I've played and seen hundreds of games where someone seems completely prepared, just because of luck or intuition. Just because someone looks ready doesn't mean they were cheating. I see nothing wrong with using the stream to join at the same time as Idra, then minimizing it. What's the difference between having it open and minimized? The difference is that it's pretty common for people to have dual monitors and CrunCher is OBVIOUSLY not going to admit to cheating. It's totally expected for him to say he had it minimized and muted because it was already proven that he was connected to the stream so it's not like he could deny that part. He lied about what cannot be proven/disproven. Him and IdrA have a grudge and IdrA constantly beats and BMs CrunCher. There's your motive. IdrA had every right to be angry about the situation, and banning him for something like this is totally unreasonable and biased towards CrunCher. Innocent until proven guilty. Thats as fair as it gets. If Cruncher received a ban for this with no hard evidence of the fact, then tons of other people would be in an uproar saying how unjust and unfair it is. On May 08 2011 07:55 scrim wrote:So teamliquid bans people for something that didn't even happen on the forums? Shouldn't they ban huk then? Huk bmed idra at mlg on shattered temple, making him upset DURING a set. Something like that is NOT acceptable. But then again, huk is on teamliquid, so he has super priviliges. Nazgul also bmed idra at mlg dallas. + Show Spoiler + during a set is not acceptable either. But then again, nazgul is on teamliquid, so he has super priviliges. NICE MODERATION User was temp banned for this post. How can you compare that to this? "You got blinked" is no where near the degree of bm that calling someone a waste of life is. On top of that Nazgul and Huk said that in a game, not in the forums where it is against the rules to insult people in such ways. just regarding you response to scrim (since he is banned now he cant reply), the bm matter is pretty subjective. you cant say 'no where near the degree of bm that calling someone a waste of life is.' since you and me or anybody are not Nazgul/Huk/Idra. different people react differently to different bm. and your last line seems suggests that 'if you are doing bm in game but not on forum, you are fine'? then you seems to forget that this is a gaming forum. in the end of the day tho, bm is bm.
My point was that if IdrA called Cruncher a waste of life on b.net instead of the forum then he would not be banned. It was directed at the guy I quoted.
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Haha, a thread about Idra getting banned gets nearly double the posts than the one about that Razer sponsorship-thing. Just shows how popular he is.
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On May 08 2011 10:57 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 10:54 askTeivospy wrote:
I actually want an honest answer, how can you feature streams where people use racial obscenities / antihomosexual remarks / just act stupid in general on one hand and then on the other say that what IdrA did (for the initial 2 day ban) is against Team Liquid. No offense, but just because you hand out bans / warnings doesn't mean that you guys aren't hypocrites
Monitor the featured and POLICE the feature streams. Its hilarious when you have people speaking out loud worse than what you can read in IdrA's chat idra didnt get banned for anything stream related though.
I didn't say he did, its a separate issue that I'm calling the moderators out on to fix. There are so many better players in the non featured streams who actually have some class it makes the featured (and by extension TL) just look like a bunch of 4chan idiots
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I think TL made a good decision. Based on the log that Kennigit posted, they are even too lenient with their treatment to IdrA. Instead of banning him for 2 days for every slur he spouts, they should make the ban length longer and longer so there's a chance he would learn not to do it. 2 days ban seem a little light.
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On May 08 2011 10:57 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 10:55 Az0r_au wrote:On May 08 2011 10:54 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 10:53 Az0r_au wrote:On May 08 2011 10:49 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 10:47 Az0r_au wrote:On May 08 2011 10:45 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 10:43 Az0r_au wrote:On May 08 2011 10:38 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 10:36 Az0r_au wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 08 2011 10:23 mahnini wrote:
what people are forgetting is that TL has high standards for the conduct of their users. due to the explosion of new users and lack of sufficient manpower to moderate a lot of people think TL is just some forum where you can post whatever you feel like with no repercussions. that couldn't be anywhere further from the truth.
this is going to sound super elitist but i don't care because it's the truth. TL is one of the foundations for why sc2 is the way it is today. TL is one of the reasons western esports even stands a chance. for 10 years through thick and thin our little community kept cranking out coverage of a video game from across the world that many have heard of but few truly understood. all the mods and staff you see aren't here doing it for the money or power, they do it because they love the game and the community. hot_bid, chill, kennigit? they all started as regular users who browsed the forum and loved the game. through contributions to the site and dedication they were selected to be among the proud few who could call themselves TL staff.
think about how easy it is today for you to get a stream to watch sc2 and remember that back in 2005 TL members would stay up till 2am on irc hoping that one of our members MAYBE could get their hands on a korean stream. remember that when WCG had no idea what TL was or how to get a proper caster TL's support and encouragement helped propel tasteless to caster fame.
TLPD? possibly the most comprehensive starcraft database in existence? made from the ground up by TL staff and volunteers. our strategy forums are probably the most informative english resources in the world, they have to be moderated and still we don't consider them to be perfect. articles, fpvods, commentaries? our users put their heart and soul into churning these out because they knew somewhere out there in our community there was someone who would appreciate it.
people need to stop considering TL a separate entity or some conglomerate of egotistic admins. TL is YOU. every single poster, viewer, or reader is part of TL. everything on this site is user generated by people who care and it's a damn shame when one of only sites that will literally take a stand for the community and uphold it's integrity is seen as some overzealous, overmoderated, egotistic, site for elitists.
if that's elitist then i'm an elitist and that's just how it is. While I agree that previous TL members have made TL what it is today and you all deserve full credit for bringing your small community to the mainstream, main stream e-sports (atleast in NA) contains BM and smack talk. Try watching Halo or CoD, every frag is accompanied by an insult to the dead players mother or his sexuality. I feel that because of TL's beginnings as a tight nit community, the "old guard" has a very sheltered view and thin skinned view on manners in general. Sooner or later TL will have to deal with the fact that BM is a part of e-sports and a very entertaining part at that. Most casual viewers dont watch e-sports because they can appreciate the finer points of a 45 minute macro game. They watch it for their favourite players and their rivalries or to see people "get owned" etc. The FPS communities as I know them are looked upon as shit compared to TL, same with the WoW community. I don't think that is what we want this to become. I'm not saying we should emmulate those communities, but at the same time TL needs to realise the value of bm/rivalries to e-sports as a whole. I don't see any value to what idra does. It's beyond bm. It's beyond personality. It's immaturity. This is exactly what I talk about with being thin skinned. Calling someone a name on a forum is really not that note worthy in the world of gaming EXCEPT on teamliquid. It's more too it than just bm, idra makes people think it's ok to act like him, those people come here, post like shit, are ignorant, and lower the quality of the community. I can't think of any other player that has this much effect on his fans. EXACTLY!! Now you see my point. He's the most popular player in NA by a LARGE margin BECAUSE of the way he acts. You see how this is tying back in to my first post about how TL will eventually have to address BM as an issue? Yes, he has the biggest immature fanbase. Not a good thing. A fan is a fan when sponsors are concered... We are talking about the community. As you can see in this thread theres people actually still thinking what idra said on twitter wasnt a bad thing. Now thats ignorance and being blinded by fanboyism. Which is not good.
First off I don't at all condone what idra said on twitter. Instigating hundreds of people to harass someone is not OK. That's sort of the point i'm trying to make. TL wont be able to keep itself isolated from these sort of incidents as sc2 grows. The site may have to choose between growing itself with these new "fan boys" or sticking to its old ways. Obviously I don't have absolute knowledge of TL's sponsor deals, but I can assume that an increase in traffic even if from undesirable individuals would result in a more likely sponsorship deal or better sponsorship terms.
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@zeru, stop hating Idra that much, its bad for your health.
As Idra fan, I can agree with TL decisions here. Not that Idra probably care if he is banned or not, lol.
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is awesome32274 Posts
On May 08 2011 08:24 Bao wrote:
So people voice their disagreement with the mods and get warned/temp banned for their post? I really don't understand what is going on here.
BaoPMPermalink
i think idra said it best -- the tl admins need to get the sand out of their vaginas
lol
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A 90-day ban is too good for him. The guy shouldn't be allowed on TL ever again, and if I were running a major tournament, I wouldn't let him enter.
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As much as people are enthralled by Idra's play style, his dedication and pure skill at Starcraft, is his overall image really as clear cut?
Maybe he doesn't care what his fans or anyone else thinks of him, maybe he does, maybe he uses it to his advantage, maybe there always has to be a rebel without a cause to make the "gl hf gg wp" nice guy mentality that is most of Starcrafts player base a realistic venture. Maybe there doesn't.
Something that comes to mind, in-directly relating to the ban is that Idra stated he "wouldn't be streaming for 2 days due to the ban, everyone PM **** if this affects you" even though TL has no affiliation with Justin.tv, where Idra streams. This has a negative impact on everyone, including himself and most importantly he's seemed to be asking people to play his personal army while taking away his stream away from the fans, giving them a pseudo ultimatum and what's worse, people followed through.
Considering this, previously he has bashed 2 popular Starcraft commentators for their "questionable service to the community". I'm not denying Idra's input to the community, more then I could ever give, however I'l leave it up to others to judge who is "winning" here and to really sit back and look at everything in perspective.
Everything aside, upon registering, I seem to remember reading something along the lines of: "This is our House.", must just have been me.
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The ban on IdrA felt very abusive and personal by the staff. Just my opinion.
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gogo tl pwn all these fanboys, time to lay the hammer down
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 08 2011 11:07 Gackt_ wrote:
The ban on IdrA felt very abusive and personal by the staff. Just my opinion.
I thought opinions were based around the facts.
On May 08 2011 11:09 TT1 wrote:
gogo tl pwn all these fanboys, time to lay the hammer down
yeah man,totally.
Today I can clearly say IdrA fanboys are a billion times worse than Bisu or stork fanboys.
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good job tl, hope idra learns something ..
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On May 08 2011 06:55 Aeres wrote:
I think IdrA should be forced to sing Rebecca Black's "Friday" at MLG Columbus, in lieu of a 90-day ban. :D
hahahahaha XD
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EPT
