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Please remember that while this thread is for QQ and venting about the game, racism is not tolerated here on LD. |
On September 27 2017 06:10 BigO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 17:23 harodihg wrote:
I don't think that's how behavior scores work. Yes, sometimes someone on the enemy team throws, but more often than not (probably 80-90% of the time) they're on my team. That isn't cognitive bias or me just forgetting when it happens. I used to keep a DotA log and post about every single game I'd play. So you think Valve is after you? It's very hard to take you seriously if you paint a picture of Valve conspiring to take your mmr or something. I have an idea how we can find out. Play support only for your next 50 games (And you know, try to win and play well). Always try and stay positive and encourage your team if needed. I'm quite sure you will see games turning out to be alot different. I do that (or well, I flame sometimes too if there is something exceptionally retarded going on in my games) and I got a 10k behaviour score. Of course there are still people doing dumb shit in my games as well, but it's very very rare someone intentionally feeds. Like you pretty much have a choice. Keep playing and acting like you have and keep having the games you do. Or change and likely the issues you are experiencing will go away (not 100% but you know, at least there will be less of it).
I play in the same exact MMR bracket on the same servers (42XX NA servers) but have a 9700 (near-perfect) behavior score and it's been literal hundreds of games since I've had a straight intentional feeder or troll. Stupid builds like 28 minute battlefury PA or jungle dragon knight, sure, but basically never anything like the video of the tiny game. On either side. I'm curious what the bounds are for behavior score in matchmaking, but I, too, have a hard time believing it filters one team to have a substantially worse behavior score than the other. If that were true, then surely I'd experience it a lot more often where the enemy team, and not my own, has a troll/feeder.
Of course, that's nearly impossible to test without dotabuff or something stepping in and providing data.
I don't imagine behavior score changes fast enough for "Play support and manner for 50 games" to make much of a difference.
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Again, I don't think "Valve is out to get me" or something like that. I don't know what more you want from me other than just showing you what my games are like. If you don't want to believe that behavior score is used to create teams in matchmaking (they announced it was a short while ago) then why even have it and why are my games like that while yours aren't, am I just unlucky?
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Sweden956 Posts
First off, 50 games of support and PMA is probably enough to get you to at least 8.5k+ regardless of where you start.
And I would asume that low behaviour score matches you with/against people with similiar behaviour score (not 100% sure on this, but it seems that way).
Only reason I have been writing any of this is because it's a problem YOU can fix by changing how YOU act and behave in game. Like, you wouldn't be experiencing this thing with shitty teammates feeding etc (or at least to a much less extent) if you didn't behave in a way that gets you reported, ok?
Like, it is most definitly a problem YOU can fix. If you have no intention of fixing the issue, I don't think you should complain about it since you are probably to some extent also part of the problem.
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28100 Posts
Doing the road to 5k on one of my smurfs. Started at 4.1k 1-2 weeks ago and I'm a bit under 4.8k right now. These are easily the most miserable games I've played in a long time. Won like 10 in a row then the last few days I haven't moved up or down at all because I've had the worst possible luck ever. Like I shouldn't ever have a negative day in the 4k bracket but my teammates have been SO incredibly bad, it's actually mindblowing. I'm sure I will hit 5k before the end of next weekend, but I'm sure I should have already been there a day or two ago rofl.
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On September 27 2017 08:22 harodihg wrote:
Again, I don't think "Valve is out to get me" or something like that. I don't know what more you want from me other than just showing you what my games are like. If you don't want to believe that behavior score is used to create teams in matchmaking (they announced it was a short while ago) then why even have it and why are my games like that while yours aren't, am I just unlucky?
I dont disagree with the fact that behavior score is used to create teams, i disagree with the fact that its harder to climb or u deserve higher rank if ur behavior score is low. U are on even foot with 10k behavior score player as 1k behavior score player in terms of MMR, but obv players u are playing with are monkey dicks just like u do.
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On September 27 2017 08:22 harodihg wrote:
Again, I don't think "Valve is out to get me" or something like that. I don't know what more you want from me other than just showing you what my games are like. If you don't want to believe that behavior score is used to create teams in matchmaking (they announced it was a short while ago) then why even have it and why are my games like that while yours aren't, am I just unlucky?
I'm not arguing your games aren't bad, I'm arguing that it doesn't stack one team to be shitty badmanner and the other to be totally fine. If it was that way, I'd be seeing more games that were essentially freewin because some 1k behavior score person on the other team is going to throw for them. That, as I mentioned, virtually never happens (Certainly not with a skew to my team), so I have a hard time believing it does that.
I believe it uses behavior score to matchmake much like it uses MMR to matchmake. Like with MMR, I believe the system is attempting to constrain the range of behavior score to be as small as possible. I have nothing to support this aside from anecdotes, it's just what makes sense to me. Doing what you suggest they do seems like unnecessary and cruel punishment for people that like to yell at each other.
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Okay, so you're with me up to the point where it actually ruins matchmaking for those with low behavior score then.
Would it change your mind if I kept tally and provided proof that a significant number of my games have people throw/ruin the game for my team as opposed to it not often happening for the other?
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![[image loading]](https://snag.gy/LoWDEa.jpg)
I laughed at this more than anything
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On September 27 2017 16:40 harodihg wrote:
Okay, so you're with me up to the point where it actually ruins matchmaking for those with low behavior score then.
Would it change your mind if I kept tally and provided proof that a significant number of my games have people throw/ruin the game for my team as opposed to it not often happening for the other?
Whatever u count as ruins because u dont deserve to play with nice acting people if u are cunt urself. and like i said earlier, if u are not the one who ruins games, there are 4 possible ruiners in ur team and 5 in the other, easy calculus.
Its not that hard to make people ruin games if u want them to, there is really not a way to proof.
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On September 27 2017 16:40 harodihg wrote:
Okay, so you're with me up to the point where it actually ruins matchmaking for those with low behavior score then.
Would it change your mind if I kept tally and provided proof that a significant number of my games have people throw/ruin the game for my team as opposed to it not often happening for the other?
I'd probably have to either experience it myself or see large sample size data, like if dotabuff or something stepped up and provided info. Surely they've got possible access to behavior scores and could show consistent matchmaking where one team had 3+k lower average behavior scores than their opponents.
Then we'd be on to something.
Otherwise I'd just be too tempted to blame it on something like you not having 100% clear view of your opponents all the time so you can't see them griefing, or some shit like that. Idk.
Also his argument against the above post is that matchmaking will intentionally weigh one of the teams down with a substantially lower overall behavior rating, meaning that it's quite possible the 4 other people on his team are statistically more likely to be shitbags than the 5 people on the opposing team. I feel like Haro has said that enough for it to be clear, at this point.
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I only count game ruining as things like dual laning mid, breaking items, or running down mid
things like being a dick/mean or other slight things I don't include into outright game ruining.
@Velzi read my posts from the pages prior, I already responded to essentially what you said lol.
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Fleet, the way I currently see our views on this right now:
Our agreements:
-behavior score is used to match people with similar scores
-low behavior scores are more likely to result in worse games
What we disagree on:
-whether or not BOTH teams wind up having low behavior scores or just one
From personal experience I would say it's more likely they try to put just one, but that's just an anecdote and not an actual argument so I can't really push that point. But I think as far as things go that's the only real contention between us, is it not?
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Sweden956 Posts
So you think it's wrong that people that behaves like cunts/feeds/breaks items etc get matched togheter. And that we should instead let them have the chance to ruin games for people that actually try to have a positive experience playing dota?
Honestly, I don't think you are seeing things correctly, because I'm fairly sure that people with low behaviour scores gets matched with similar people on both teams. I don't "ever" have people intentionally feed etc in my games, on either side.
Just stop blaming matchmaking working as intended and start being nice ingame and none of this will be a problem for you.
Let game ruiners play with game ruiners and let us that actually try to have a good time playing dota have it. If you want a better time playing dota, it's entirely possible by just behaving well in game. Or keep being a negative influence on your games and deal with the consequences, but don't blame Valve for actually taking a step towards making matchmaking a better place for those that try to have a positive influence on the game.
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On September 27 2017 18:56 harodihg wrote:
Fleet, the way I currently see our views on this right now:
Our agreements:
-behavior score is used to match people with similar scores
-low behavior scores are more likely to result in worse games
What we disagree on:
-whether or not BOTH teams wind up having low behavior scores or just one
From personal experience I would say it's more likely they try to put just one, but that's just an anecdote and not an actual argument so I can't really push that point. But I think as far as things go that's the only real contention between us, is it not?
You got it, and the disagreement is because we have opposite experiences on that front. I almost always have balanced-feeling games, where you have a disproportionate number of imbalanced-feeling games, driven by teammates who don't give a fuck about winning or playing dota.
It would be stupid to me if their matchmaking algorithms do allow for 1) significantly imbalanced behavior scores between teams and 2) intentionally fucking over bad-mannered people in the process. It'd be like some fucked up bullying people into being nice to each other.
Not saying it's impossible, but if it is true, it is kinda fucked up.
Also something to think about : If the system does strive for imbalanced behavior scores at lower behavior score rating, that still doesn't explain why you get put on the losing side of that transaction more often than not. Unless you're literally bottom of the barrel for behavior scores, you should be on the higher side just as much as you are on the lower.
Explained further : If that's the way the system works, then one game you should get a game where your team's average behavior score is 2000, and the enemy team's is 3.5k. The next game, you could get a game where your avg behavior score is 1800, and the enemy's team is 700. Unless your 1700 behavior rating is basically as low as it goes, then it should swing both ways -even if- the matchmaking system strives for imbalance.
And if you're getting bottomed out and you end up with more 2k avg vs 3k avg, then I think having literally one of the lowest behavior scores on the servers you play is on you.
It's at least an explanation.
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This "Staying in enemy base after they all buy back and die en masse so we can easily lose" should end sometime. Fucking they bought back after a really hard fight, we have no mana, half of the team is dead. Jesus
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28100 Posts
It's super tilting when your incredibly under farmed safe lane carry who has been making terrible decisions all game decides to flame you after the game losing fight even though he's 1000% wrong about what he's saying. Like he just feeds before the fights starts and while we're fighting he's flaming me in voice chat about "how I should have done something, why didn't you use spells, etc". Sorry mate I'm just a QoP, I can't really blink into their doom/storm/lc/riki lineup xD.
Maybe you shouldn't have been sitting in trees on MK in a warded area when you saw 5 enemies walking at you.
Anyway, it's just irritating when I didn't say anything about his shitty play the entire game. I even tried to calm him down when he was being toxic towards other players.
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Yeah, that's extremely insufferable.
When you don't say anything when they fuck up; but they run their mouths if they even think you did (right after they die or do something dumb)
Happened earlier to me in a game I was 6-0 as AM and reluctantly carrying a team when we were down 30-8 on kills and I took rax. The I died once and the 0-11 kotl starts telling me I'm garbage, etc.
Fuck you kotl
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Hmm last few games have all been stomps. Like where your teammates combine for 20+ deaths at the 10 minute mark. Hard to even play the game like that
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28100 Posts
On October 06 2017 06:21 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:
Hmm last few games have all been stomps. Like where your teammates combine for 20+ deaths at the 10 minute mark. Hard to even play the game like that
Since yesterday I've had a 22, 19, and a 15 minute game. The 15 minute game was 18-0 in our favor.
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I played 8 games and had 6 of them griefed, 3 in a row by the same guy.
I ended up in low priority afterwards despite not doing anything to try and upset or throw the game.
F behavior score is actually inescapable and ruins the game entirely. I might as well just make a new account.
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EPT
