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On March 02 2013 05:23 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 05:12 SKC wrote:On March 02 2013 05:08 TanGeng wrote:
As a general comment, building guides around Steam's item & abilities template is a terrible idea. While graphically appealing and accessible in game, it leads to simplistic and rigid guidelines that can be easily derailed or quickly obsoleted.
Perhaps you might consider writing up a guide that links in 5 or more different builds with situational factors that favor the selection. With a good understanding of the hero as the underpinnings of the guide.
And just because there are different builds suggested for the same hero doesn't mean that the builds are actually in conflict as they may be aimed at playing against different opponents or opposing play styles. To be honest, guides are helpful for new player that pick a hero they have no idea how to play and could use a quick guide saying how he should build him. That guy won't really understand what makes you pick one build or the other, he just doesn't want to be completelly clueless. In Dota 1 you would alt + tab to a random website for it, ingame guides make it easier. If you already have a decent amount of knowledge about the game, it's much more productive to check outside the game and read diferent sources. It's more accessible in game which is the only real strength that an in-game guide has and brevity is more of a strength. I'm thinking that all of these builds/guides as is will fail TL's standard.
What TL Standard? This is for the general community in-game. TL just has the better intelligence and knowledge such as people like Yango and Flamewheel.
Sven/Luna should be up.
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Gank-Tiny with blink and using combo effectively is way harder to play than carry-tiny. And since Tiny is one of the stronger carries in the game I would suggest removing the Blink dagger to focus more on farming instead of ganking. But as always in Dota "it depends".
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On March 02 2013 05:30 Supercilium wrote:
Gank-Tiny with blink and using combo effectively is way harder to play than carry-tiny. And since Tiny is one of the harder carries in the game I would suggest removing the Blink dagger to focus more on farming instead of ganking. But as always in Dota "it depends".
Can you elaborate on this?
I've seen carry Tiny maybe once your twice during regular games. What makes him easier: what are his flaws in comparison to ganker?
I feel carry Tiny is too much "ahead of the curve" for newer players maybe.
edit: How does he play early the mid-game?
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On March 02 2013 05:31 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 05:30 Supercilium wrote:
Gank-Tiny with blink and using combo effectively is way harder to play than carry-tiny. And since Tiny is one of the harder carries in the game I would suggest removing the Blink dagger to focus more on farming instead of ganking. But as always in Dota "it depends". Can you elaborate on this? I've seen carry Tiny maybe once your twice during regular games. What makes him easier: what are his flaws in comparison to ganker? I feel carry Tiny is too much "ahead of the curve" for newer players maybe. edit: How does he play early the mid-game?
Eh, I wouldn't say he is any harder than ganking tiny (if anything, ganking tiny takes a lot more precision / awareness on how to engage and where to gank), but Its fine if you leave it as is. I guess its hard for me to think of a time where ganking or solo tiny was fine (since he gets outlaned pretty hard by a lot of heroes).
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Decisions, decisions.
So mid tiny is fine or should I slot him lane?
I can definitely set up a draft build for him as carry.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
Could do two separate guides.
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Yes, but I want to stick with one for every hero for now. I can only handle so much as one person and would love to get feedback on all the heroes and rate them up before moving onto alternate guides.
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I edited to try to avoid confusion, but you are to fast. I meant to say carry-tiny is one of the stronger carries in the game. First of all I would say that the execution of gank-tiny is really hard for a new player i.e. Blink+Stun+Chuck should be done within split second. And for a new player I would imagine it takes some time to "rush" a blink dagger, since they miss lasthits. And time is of the essence with blink-tiny since you lose a lot of power when you no longer can instakill someone with the combo.
With carry-tiny you still have your powerful stun and chuck but you focus more on farming and getting Aghanims and other items, for example AC, crit, heart etc. With this build you become stronger as the game goes on instead of weaker.
Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt ^_^
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I honestly think that most of the guides are fine, I can comb over them again but a lot of the suggestions you are getting are very specific while I was under the impression that these guides were supposed to be all-encompassing and accessible for the roles they fill.
I can and will comb over them again for you and in the process upvote everything I see that doesn't need editting but the fact that you have to constantly republish guides and in the process reset their ratings (if im not mistaken) means you'll have to decide a stopping point.
I think the best thing to do right NOW is to leave your guides that are already good for what they are intended (jungle N'aix, jungle LD, mid gank tiny) alone if they are deemed sufficient and make a notepad/googledocs of what other builds you need to make for those heroes (lane naix, offlane lone druid, safe lane lone druid, safe lane carry tiny, etc. etc.)
edit: I agree that carry tiny is a better build nowadays for sure, Aghanim's buff to him made it incredibly strong and Blink still has a place on him just not in his core. However, pubs also have the problem of not having the greatest mechanics and laning skills which I think carry tiny needs unless he's getting trilaned (also uncommon in lower level pubs). It's debatable but both builds definitely should be presented at some point IMO
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On March 02 2013 04:59 Torte de Lini wrote:
Updated Spectre, Updated Antimage.
Updated Sven, Luna
I'm looking for a second opinion about your CK suggestion since I was told to add that earlier.
I'll update Tiny but I still think its main items (blink, and arcane boots) are pretty amazing and make him easy to play/understand his role/duties, etc.
I'll update his situational/extension, etc.
I agree with swapping out soul ring for drum. Treads drum gives you more speed, hp, etc and should give you enough mana that you'll be okay as long as you don't spam your spells randomly. I don't think soul ring is awful, but it's definitely more situational on CK than drums.
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Treads/Drums/Armlet is standard core on CK.
Soul Ring is good but isn't for every game. I buy it on him if people aren't buying Arcane Boots in pubs.
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Situational it is.
Dazzle re-re-reupdated.
Somehow it didn't update before.
CK updated
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On March 02 2013 10:13 Torte de Lini wrote:
Situational it is.
Dazzle re-re-reupdated.
Somehow it didn't update before.
CK updated
Since no one else is thanking you - thanks for your hard work on this Torte. Clearly a thankless job.
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Thanks for your feedback and criticisms!
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some feedback,
1. For OD I would rather have force staff as core and blink as situational. Although the force staff nerf to damage hurts, the item itself I feel is better than a blink dagger for int carries.
2. For dark seer laning I would suggest using soul + tranquils, especially for off-lane solo'ing instead of arcanes + soul ring.
3. BKB on QOP is almost core against recent 5 man lineups.
4. Storm Spirits get arcanes only to be disassembled into bloodstone parts, after which many opt to build threads.
5. Enigma jungle is best played as a role 3 IMHO, and the ideal starting build with standard gold is 3 clarities and a part of soul ring, making for the earliest possible soul ring.
No time yet to go through the lot of guides, but went through some of my common heroes and they were pretty good.
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I'll need to relook into OD's build, but so far, Yango states Force as Situational, not core.
On February 25 2013 05:04 TheYango wrote:
OD: Starting items should have either an RoP or a Mantle of Intelligence depending on whether you're getting Tranquils or not. Arcanes suck, you're an autoattack hero. Treads or Tranquils, followed by Mek, BKB, Sheep. Force Atos is gimmicky, it's not actually a good build. You're a carry, just because you scale off Intel doesn't mean you can totally neglect autoattack stats. Force Staff and Atos are situational, along with AC, Shiva's, Blink, and Ghost Scepter (Blink is a good escape the same way it is on Puck, since you can Astral yourself->Blink away). Skill order pre-6 should be Astral->Aura->Astral->Aura->Astral, not Aura first.
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On March 02 2013 13:44 Torte de Lini wrote:I'll need to relook into OD's build, but so far, Yango states Force as Situational, not core. Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 05:04 TheYango wrote:
OD: Starting items should have either an RoP or a Mantle of Intelligence depending on whether you're getting Tranquils or not. Arcanes suck, you're an autoattack hero. Treads or Tranquils, followed by Mek, BKB, Sheep. Force Atos is gimmicky, it's not actually a good build. You're a carry, just because you scale off Intel doesn't mean you can totally neglect autoattack stats. Force Staff and Atos are situational, along with AC, Shiva's, Blink, and Ghost Scepter (Blink is a good escape the same way it is on Puck, since you can Astral yourself->Blink away). Skill order pre-6 should be Astral->Aura->Astral->Aura->Astral, not Aura first.
He also lists Blink as situational though, not ahead of Force Staff. Blink as a core on OD just feels weird, it's definatelly not an item picked every OD game, I personally don't see it often at all.
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I thought Mek/Force Staff/BKB was the core with a choice between Shiva's/Atos/Sheep after that.
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I played a game where I went Blink, BKB and Meka
Was pretty awkward, sitll won.
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EPT
