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+ Show Spoiler +On February 02 2014 15:14 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 11:25 Golgotha wrote:
Corsair H100i has a lot more fan rpm than the noctuas. Is there a catch? It's not that much more expensive, and if it's a lot cooler, id take it! They're completely different types of coolers so you can't compare with stuff like this, on top of that, i don't understand decision for 4770k or 780 or 16gb of RAM. If you don't know much about building a computer, why do you want an EVGA CLASSIFIED 780? Are you going to be benching in the 1400mhz range on air with a custom bios on it? If not - get one of the other cards. Likewise if Hyperthreading isn't a big gain for you, you don't want it. Your core clocks on the CPU will be 200mhz lower with it on due to heat, so you'll lose performance in a lot of cases - i've had HT off half of the time on my 4770k so that i could throw an extra 0.1vcore at it, and i use HT all the time for stuff that a lot of people don't. Show nested quote +I have 3 friends with unlocked CPUs and OC motherboards. Only 1 of which purchased an aftermarket cooler and none of which have even attempted to overclock (their computers were purchased in summer 2013). These people are everywhere  "best" means "handles itself best when you use a voltage that is unsuitable for 24/7 gaming load, for the use of temporarily increased performance while running 3dmark11", basically. If you don't want that, the only real difference between the cards are >noise profiles< since it's somewhat difficult to cool 300 watts on a single pcb and i see many people with one 780 run 15% lower performance than another all of the time simply due to not being able to deal with the GPU temperatures because of not liking fan noise, or not having ideal case/case airflow etc. ^If you really care about the difference between one 780 model and another (which is almost entirely irrelevant for 24/7 operation), then stuff like delidding CPU is far more important. Both are way into enthusiast level, which you can do if you really want to, but requires a lot of looking for knowledge and pushing components, and you can't get there simply by spending a lot of money, as much as a lot of people try to. The differences do matter to such people (and to me) but if you're not going to be spending days or weeks at a time reading up on components and pushing them, it just won't make a difference to you. i7 > i5 is one of the most commonly done budget mis-allocations IMO, you need to really, really justify 16gb of RAM (because 8gb is a lot!) and then if you're going past 770/280x on a 1080p60hz to the tier of "supercards" above them, you need to really, really justify that too, otherwise you can extremely easily fall into a situation of making a build for 1.5x the cost of what you actually want, with no real benefit at all I love 780/780ti and even 290 but if you're gonna leave them at stock clocks, they're somewhat questionable decisions. If you're going to pay a ton extra for a "great" or "best" model without pushing it to limits, it's a flat out bad economic decision, unless epeen has a dollar value to you, likewise for 4770k, if you can't list at least some of your programs that would benefit from hyperthreading, you're probably just shooting yourself in the foot. In an expensive build the cost difference isn't much, but throwing stuff in "just because" does not make the best value builds ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OULiXr5.png) This is a build of a friend of mine, the one who did not even OC yet (i talked him almost everything on that list, though he was going to go to 850 on the gpu for kingpin card (limited edition liquid nitrogen benchmarkinging version of classified) for an example of what you have to be careful to avoid Aah lots of ranting about the same thing
Wow...16GB of 2400MHz RAM, 780 Ti, i7 4770K, Liquid cooling, 500GB SSD.
Lemme guess...your friend plays League of Legends 99% of the time and browse on Chrome on the rest.
And lol@no overclocking. Because when you spend $3000, the damn CPU better overclock itself.
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Corsair HX750... lol seriously?
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
Wow...16GB of 2400MHz RAM
It's not that, it's that he spent $294 on the RAM, when the type of IC's that it had were a lottery IIRC and you could get some guaranteed nice kits, 4x4gb for $126 (dual sided hynix mfr that consistently clock to about ~2800c12 on ~1.7-1.75v)
Lemme guess...your friend plays League of Legends 99% of the time and browse on Chrome on the rest.
He plays Planetside 2 quite a bit, sends me shadowplay vids that show FPS dropping to the 40's.. but it's ok and he doesn't need to overclock yet because he "doesn't notice it"
I understand the "dream build with best components" thing, just want to say that you really have to know when you're paying $50-100 for a benefit or when you're paying $50-100 for nothing (like on the RAM) and it often does not make sense to buy a lot of things unless you plan to use them in certain ways. If you pay for X% performance improvement, it's important to take it. If you pay for no gained function, it's generally a waste of money (like a classified 780 that's clocked at ~1050-1200)
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Id like to thank skyr cyro myrr and others who i have forgotten who have helped me out on my pc build. I ended up spending more than my initial budget cause I upgraded to a 770 and cause of coin mining and falling CAD dollar it was abit more coming up to about 1.2k. PC runs super smooth and everything so Im really pleased now I just gota see what I can do with this brick I built :D
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Mah, guys remember that if someone is completely new to PC building in general and isn't up to date with hardware, they're never going to know much. So it's understandable that someone might not realize what the actual benefits (or lack of) for 16 Gb of RAM are, or realize that there's an actual king of Z87 boards under $150, etc.
Though I guess, yes, they should do the homework before buying anything. However, you can't criticize someone who's actually doing his homework and asking for his build to be criticized. Even if the build isn't terribly optimized.
I know I myself half regret not getting an overclocking board/processor to try it out for myself. This rig of mine is great but I kind of want to learn more about overclocking and whatnot. Then again, I did save some € so that's all right (it's not like I NEED the cpu power for what I do, anyway).
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
I'll try to post better^
few people really "need" the cpu power, but there's often the want, given ~1.2-1.5x fps gains in many games and faster encodes etc. Most of the "i need an overclocked CPU" is just a case of "i want more fps" or "i want to stream at higher fps"
Btw guys, as an example of bf4 being cpu/api limited, here's some numbers from yesterday
![[image loading]](http://cdn.overclock.net/e/ec/ec226a20_osif8D2.png)
Right now i run BF4 on 4770K 4.2GHz + 2x780 at 1200MHz. I have nearly constant 145FPS (locked at this value). My settings are, 1080p - All low, no AA, Occlusion off, Mesh Distance =Ultra, resolution scaling 135% (internal resolution is 2592x1458).
^~low settings, ~1.82x 1080p - so basically like running 1080p on a single card. The extra resolution is offset by having two cards.
Most people reporting "constant" fps, or what the fps meter says, have no idea that they are getting a far less smooth experience than they should be. Mantle will be godlike for bf4 because of fixing this. FPS numbers will fly, and even the people partially GPU limited will see slow frames gone. This example has ~15-20% of frames failing to meet 120hz refresh with many of them being far slower (enough to cause massive visual disturbance)
+ Show Spoiler +Also i've been aware more recently of some of the "microstutter" on 60hz screens, that occurs simply because..
If you're at 45fps, you have 3 frames to every 4 refreshes (60/4 = 15, *3)
If you're at 48fps, you have 4 frames to every 5 refreshes (60/5 = 12, *4)
If you're between such ratio's consistently, then motion looks very weird and unsmooth. I heard that you could simulate it in a source engine game by using fps_max = 47 (i think that's the command) - There's ratio's like that everywhere, but between ~45 and ~48fps was one of the worst ones IIRC and it has a subtle but constantly annoying effect on how smooth stuff is, that's one of the main reasons that a higher refresh rate screen is more suited for displaying content even below 60fps (particularly if it is variable refresh rate, like a live rendered game)
^Screen stuff
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When are they going to release Mantle anyway?? They've been teasing the world with this for a few days now.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
About six hours ago
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I just noticed! Lol.
Anyway I'm not going to lie, the entire relationship between FPS and screen refresh rate is something I don't get. I will attempt to find a reasoning (based off that post, cyro) and then we'll see if I got it right:
I know that for example, running a game at FPS under your monitor's refresh rate won't eliminate microstutter. So, as you say, you'll get micro-stutter if you're running 45 fps on a 60 Hz monitor, because 45/60 = 3/4, so for every 4 frames rendered by the monitor, the GPU can only give 3. So 3 frames for 4 refreshes.
Running 60 FPS consistently on a 60 Hz monitor will get 60/60 = 1 frame every every frame the monitor renders. So in theory, the micro-stutter shouldn't exist. Obviously this is an ideal case because most games don't run at exactly 60 fps consistently (it's variable, could be 50 to 80 fps or something). This is also not taking frame time into account (which I'm just going to not consider for these little thoughts of mine).
However running 45 fps on a 120 hz monitor looks smoother overall because 45/120 = 3/8. So 3 frames for 8 refreshes.
I don't get it, do we want the frame/refresh ratio to be higher (1/1 for 60 fps on 60 hz) ? Or do we want it lower (3/8 for 45 fps on 120 hz)
Actually I can't make the heads or tail of it. I'm pretty sure my analysis here is all wrong though. :p
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United States9452 Posts
Microstutter has to do with uneven time between seeing new information on the screen. If something is (constant) X fps for any X, it's not stuttering unless you have VSync on and are thus forcing some delays.
You always want, all other things equal, the fps to be higher.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
Sorry i didn't make it clear:
45fps, 48fps, 50fps on 60hz are good. They fit into 3:4, 4:5 and 5:6 ratio nicely. It's values between them that you don't want. You got that backwards from the info i wrote
More info in thread, i won't steal/quote everything - http://www.overclock.net/t/1460151/important-question-tearing-less-frames-perceived/0_30
Microstutter has to do with uneven time between seeing new information on the screen. If something is (constant) X fps for any X, it's not stuttering unless you have VSync on and are thus forcing some delays.
As explained in that thread, if frame 1 takes for example 18ms to render, then it can cut off the first 10% of frame 2 on the second refresh cycle. This means that you only see the bottom 90% of frame 2 in that refresh - and the top 10% is added on >16.7ms later< in the third refresh - then the second frame gets continually refreshed again on refresh 3, until frame 3 starts 20% of the way down the screen.
Next frame starts 30% down, one after that 40% down, then 50, then 60 - which creates a noticeable stuttering effect. There is a delay, it's just not in a conventional place, the part of the screen that has the old frame on it before the new frame was ready does not get the new frame until an extra refresh cycle hits it - then it receives the old frame, not the new one which is about to finish* and be refreshed onto the rest of the screen.
*but is not finished yet because FPS is lower than refresh rate
^It's not a big problem most of the time, just slight loss of smoothness. It becomes a bigger problem at those weird ratios and around between ~45-48fps was where i noticed it worse - there was one camera panning scene in Heaven 4.0 that put me at that fps range on my hardware and it looks terrible on my 60hz screen yet completely normal on this one at 144hz
I just brought up because i see a lot of people say ">60hz refresh only helps with >60fps" which is true, but ONLY when frametimes are constant, like watching a movie, and only if you want to see entirely whole frames (basically, if you are maintaining vsync)
It doesn't really hold up when you're playing a game with variable frametimes and without vsync, in such cases 120/144hz is superior to 60hz in smoothness at many framerates below 60, and especially considering that framerate averages do not really matter, only individual frametimes (and there's always dips/spikes everywhere, it is the nature of averaging many many numbers)
This must be even harder to understand than it is to write
Regarding Mantle, i'm seeing numbers like this everywhere:
![[image loading]](http://cdn.overclock.net/2/2d/2d15c233_01-battlefield-4-siege-of-shanghai-chart.png)
^Seems that if you don't GPU limit yourself by using too high settings for your hardware, gains are pretty crazy. Anybody attempting to abuse a 120hz screen would see the same gains on any hardware, as long as they used settings and resolution appropriate for 120fps on the GPU that they had. This is a 4770k with a 290 i believe.
Edit: Nope - MP Benchmark:
Map: Siege of Shanghai
Setup: Core i7-3770K, 16 GB DDR3-1333, Radeon R9 290X @ 1.000/2.500 MHz, Windows 8.1 x64, Catalyst 14.1 Beta
Players: 64 players
Of course this is stock CPU, also they're probably hurting their DX performance significantly by using that RAM - but overclocking won't make a performance increase of 1.76x and it's pretty insane that something as simple as a new API could do this.
The FPS in Star Swarm is somewhat random because it's not deterministic, but they give you a few other numbers like batch counts etc. Also - they kinda have the marketing strategy of make the gains so big that a variance in benchmark FPS does not do much to hide the differences - ![[image loading]](http://scr3.golem.de/screenshots/1401/Mantle-API-Test/thumb620/02-star-swarm-chart.png)
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Been trying to understand this for a million minutes, can't wrap my head around it. Sorry, thanks for the explanations, but I just can't figure it out.
I'll try again later when I've digested the little I did understand. :p
Edit: shit, random BSOD.
'Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: BlueScreen
OS Version: 6.1.7600.2.0.0.256.1
Locale ID: 3081
Additional information about the problem:
BCCode: 50
BCP1: FFFFF900C2A53030
BCP2: 0000000000000000
BCP3: FFFFF960003218BD
BCP4: 0000000000000000
OS Version: 6_1_7600
Service Pack: 0_0
Product: 256_1
Files that help describe the problem:
C:\Windows\Minidump\040613-13119-01.dmp
C:\Users\Chris\AppData\Local\Temp\WER-13852-0.sysdata.xml'
^That's what I get. Heres dump: http://wikisend.com/download/476786/Crash 2.rar
2 minutes of research indicate faulty RAM or something?
I've never touched my RAM. :/
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On February 02 2014 20:44 Incognoto wrote:Been trying to understand this for a million minutes, can't wrap my head around it. Sorry, thanks for the explanations, but I just can't figure it out. I'll try again later when I've digested the little I did understand. :p Edit: shit, random BSOD. Show nested quote +'Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: BlueScreen
OS Version: 6.1.7600.2.0.0.256.1
Locale ID: 3081
Additional information about the problem:
BCCode: 50
BCP1: FFFFF900C2A53030
BCP2: 0000000000000000
BCP3: FFFFF960003218BD
BCP4: 0000000000000000
OS Version: 6_1_7600
Service Pack: 0_0
Product: 256_1
Files that help describe the problem:
C:\Windows\Minidump\040613-13119-01.dmp
C:\Users\Chris\AppData\Local\Temp\WER-13852-0.sysdata.xml' ^That's what I get. Heres dump: http://wikisend.com/download/476786/Crash 2.rar 2 minutes of research indicate faulty RAM or something? I've never touched my RAM. :/
Hi Chris!
Could be caused by a ton of stuff - that's one reason i'd say not to delid CPU's that won't benefit from the better temperatures, now if it happens continuously you have to freak out about damaging your IMC during delid. Don't freak out though. Yet >.>
Bluescreen happens occasionally because the wind blows the wrong way, pretty much.
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I just updated to AMD's mantle drivers this morning. What makes you say it's the a GPU driver problem?
Hmm, I've been using the computer for a while since the delid without any problem. How long has it been? I would say 2 weeks maybe? Obviously damage from back then could show up now, though I don't think (read hope not) that it's the case. I did reinstall windows yesterday though.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
I was (half) joking
+ Show Spoiler +I wonder how many people "don't notice" 5:09 in this
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I said that because of that "dxgkrnl.sys" file mentioned in the bottom half of the window in that screenshot. That file is a part of DirectX stuff, so I thought of graphics first.
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Fixed old PC.
Thank you for the insights, MisterFred and Myrmidon.
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Looking for build recommendations. My budget is around $750 - $875 max.
What is your budget? $750 -$875
What is your monitor's native resolution?
Don't have one currently. Also looking for recommendations with a separate $200 budget.
What games do you intend to play on this computer? What settings?
I want to be able to play games like BF4, SC2, and Elder Scrolls Online on high settings.
What do you intend to use the computer for besides gaming?
Internet browsing, movies, music, etc.
Do you intend to overclock?
Not necessarily concerned with it.
Do you intend to do SLI / Crossfire?
I'm not sure the budget would allow for it even if I did. But no I don't.
Do you need an operating system?
I will be able to get one free through my university.
Do you need a monitor or any other peripherals and is this part of your budget?
Monitor. Not part of this budget. But, I am looking for something in the $150 - $200 range. I would prefer it to be 24 inches.
If you have any requirements or brand preferences, please specify.
No.
What country will you be buying your parts in?
United States
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On February 03 2014 13:58 Tapatio wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Looking for build recommendations. My budget is around $750 - $875 max.
What is your budget? $750 -$875
What is your monitor's native resolution?
Don't have one currently. Also looking for recommendations with a separate $200 budget.
What games do you intend to play on this computer? What settings?
I want to be able to play games like BF4, SC2, and Eldorado Scrolls Online on high settings.
What do you intend to use the computer for besides gaming?
Internet browsing, movies, music, etc.
Do you intend to overclock?
Not necessarily concerned with it.
Do you intend to do SLI / Crossfire?
I'm not sure the budget would allow for it even if I did. But no I don't.
Do you need an operating system?
I will be able to get one free through my university.
Do you need a monitor or any other peripherals and is this part of your budget?
Monitor. Not part of this budget. But, I am looking for something in the $150 - $200 range. I would prefer it to be 24 inches.
If you have any requirements or brand preferences, please specify.
No.
What country will you be buying your parts in?
United States
$900 with monitor, if you want to spend more money you could add a SSD and/or a nicer case and/or get the 4670.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks
CPU: Intel Core i5-4570 3.2GHz Quad-Core Processor ($189.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: ASRock H81M-HDS Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($51.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: A-Data XPG V1.0 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($72.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($59.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 760 2GB Video Card ($249.99 @ Newegg)
Case: Fractal Design Core 1000 USB 3.0 MicroATX Mid Tower Case ($38.98 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: Rosewill Capstone 450W 80+ Gold Certified ATX Power Supply ($59.99 @ Amazon)
Monitor: Asus VS239H-P 23.0" Monitor ($165.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $889.91
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-02-03 01:46 EST-0500)
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EPT
