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On October 12 2011 22:48 MaliciousOne wrote:
What are the sensors like on the Roccat mice? I have a friend that was looking at those given that they're now sold in the US.
Most of them have different sensors, several having issues... i havnt heard much about those mice so i dont think they are anything special
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On October 12 2011 22:42 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:48 JayDee_ wrote:On October 11 2011 03:20 Boblhead wrote:On October 11 2011 03:16 JayDee_ wrote:
Steelseries makes terrible mice. They generally have lots of inherent +/- acceleration, prediction, and poor response. I would suggest buying a razer mouse. The abyssus is relatively cheap and high quality. Where is your proof? Please I would like to know why you think "Razer" products are better?. The keyboards suck/ mice are terrible and the only decent things they make are the carrying bags for your keyboard/mouse etc etc. I haven't done a full scientific evaluation. However, I have used multiple steelseries mice (kinzu, xai, etc), all of which displayed the negative qualities I talked about. The company just doesn't know what they are doing. I come from a quake background, where the quality of the mouse you use is of utmost importance. Steeleseries mice are crap for fps. There is one pro quake player who uses an SS mouse, but it is only because he is sponsored by them. It is generally agreed that the DeathAdder, new Abysuss', WMO (microsoft wheel mouse optical), IMO , and the MX518 are mice that track to near perfection. Out of those mice, the Abyssus would be a good choice for an RTS gamer because of its light weight, small frame, and onboard drivers. Razer>SS in terms of mice because Razer uses good consistent sensors with quality drivers, while SS does not. If i were to just go and buy an abyssus on amazon.co.uk etc, what are the chances of getting one that doenst jitter horribly?
Depends on where you get it from. If you get one of the old Abyssi then yes it will jitter. I have the "LoL version" which is new and doesn't jitter. Maybe order directly from Razer?
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On October 13 2011 16:25 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 22:42 Cyro wrote:On October 12 2011 06:48 JayDee_ wrote:On October 11 2011 03:20 Boblhead wrote:On October 11 2011 03:16 JayDee_ wrote:
Steelseries makes terrible mice. They generally have lots of inherent +/- acceleration, prediction, and poor response. I would suggest buying a razer mouse. The abyssus is relatively cheap and high quality. Where is your proof? Please I would like to know why you think "Razer" products are better?. The keyboards suck/ mice are terrible and the only decent things they make are the carrying bags for your keyboard/mouse etc etc. I haven't done a full scientific evaluation. However, I have used multiple steelseries mice (kinzu, xai, etc), all of which displayed the negative qualities I talked about. The company just doesn't know what they are doing. I come from a quake background, where the quality of the mouse you use is of utmost importance. Steeleseries mice are crap for fps. There is one pro quake player who uses an SS mouse, but it is only because he is sponsored by them. It is generally agreed that the DeathAdder, new Abysuss', WMO (microsoft wheel mouse optical), IMO , and the MX518 are mice that track to near perfection. Out of those mice, the Abyssus would be a good choice for an RTS gamer because of its light weight, small frame, and onboard drivers. Razer>SS in terms of mice because Razer uses good consistent sensors with quality drivers, while SS does not. If i were to just go and buy an abyssus on amazon.co.uk etc, what are the chances of getting one that doenst jitter horribly? Depends on where you get it from. If you get one of the old Abyssi then yes it will jitter. I have the "LoL version" which is new and doesn't jitter. Maybe order directly from Razer?
They dont have the LoL version in stock, and they take 4 days to deliver to the UK (costing about $12-14 more in total than other stores) so im still debating what to do... ive heard the LoL version can jitter too and talked to one guy who returned three back-to-back from different stores and still couldnt find one that worked on a qxc
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On October 14 2011 03:44 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 16:25 JayDee_ wrote:On October 12 2011 22:42 Cyro wrote:On October 12 2011 06:48 JayDee_ wrote:On October 11 2011 03:20 Boblhead wrote:On October 11 2011 03:16 JayDee_ wrote:
Steelseries makes terrible mice. They generally have lots of inherent +/- acceleration, prediction, and poor response. I would suggest buying a razer mouse. The abyssus is relatively cheap and high quality. Where is your proof? Please I would like to know why you think "Razer" products are better?. The keyboards suck/ mice are terrible and the only decent things they make are the carrying bags for your keyboard/mouse etc etc. I haven't done a full scientific evaluation. However, I have used multiple steelseries mice (kinzu, xai, etc), all of which displayed the negative qualities I talked about. The company just doesn't know what they are doing. I come from a quake background, where the quality of the mouse you use is of utmost importance. Steeleseries mice are crap for fps. There is one pro quake player who uses an SS mouse, but it is only because he is sponsored by them. It is generally agreed that the DeathAdder, new Abysuss', WMO (microsoft wheel mouse optical), IMO , and the MX518 are mice that track to near perfection. Out of those mice, the Abyssus would be a good choice for an RTS gamer because of its light weight, small frame, and onboard drivers. Razer>SS in terms of mice because Razer uses good consistent sensors with quality drivers, while SS does not. If i were to just go and buy an abyssus on amazon.co.uk etc, what are the chances of getting one that doenst jitter horribly? Depends on where you get it from. If you get one of the old Abyssi then yes it will jitter. I have the "LoL version" which is new and doesn't jitter. Maybe order directly from Razer? They dont have the LoL version in stock, and they take 4 days to deliver to the UK (costing about $12-14 more in total than other stores) so im still debating what to do... ive heard the LoL version can jitter too and talked to one guy who returned three back-to-back from different stores and still couldnt find one that worked on a qxc
Yea the Abyssus is quite the dice roll mouse, never know if you get one with or without problems, although if you don't care for prediction you could try the Salmosa. Or you could try buying from a store and keep returning them until one works. And I bet qxc must be proud that we named a mouse pad after him.
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Hi. I might be late to this thread but I have something to say.
I was fixing my mouse along time ago when I ran across this. The readme associated with this mouse recorder says the red blocks does not indicate any problem with the mouse, it is merely the software showing you where it is unable to make a measurement.
Take my MX518, which is often described as being the best mouse ever made.
+ Show Spoiler +
After I made heavy modifications to the way Win7 views the mouse. I am running a custom mouse registry fix, and I am also running win7 in test mode to keep my polling rate fix active.
I believe this phenomenon is due to something called mouse prediction. Mouse prediction is found in every single mouse. It is also very poorly understood by the community at large.
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Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old
+ Show Spoiler +
And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft.
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On October 14 2011 03:44 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 16:25 JayDee_ wrote:On October 12 2011 22:42 Cyro wrote:On October 12 2011 06:48 JayDee_ wrote:On October 11 2011 03:20 Boblhead wrote:On October 11 2011 03:16 JayDee_ wrote:
Steelseries makes terrible mice. They generally have lots of inherent +/- acceleration, prediction, and poor response. I would suggest buying a razer mouse. The abyssus is relatively cheap and high quality. Where is your proof? Please I would like to know why you think "Razer" products are better?. The keyboards suck/ mice are terrible and the only decent things they make are the carrying bags for your keyboard/mouse etc etc. I haven't done a full scientific evaluation. However, I have used multiple steelseries mice (kinzu, xai, etc), all of which displayed the negative qualities I talked about. The company just doesn't know what they are doing. I come from a quake background, where the quality of the mouse you use is of utmost importance. Steeleseries mice are crap for fps. There is one pro quake player who uses an SS mouse, but it is only because he is sponsored by them. It is generally agreed that the DeathAdder, new Abysuss', WMO (microsoft wheel mouse optical), IMO , and the MX518 are mice that track to near perfection. Out of those mice, the Abyssus would be a good choice for an RTS gamer because of its light weight, small frame, and onboard drivers. Razer>SS in terms of mice because Razer uses good consistent sensors with quality drivers, while SS does not. If i were to just go and buy an abyssus on amazon.co.uk etc, what are the chances of getting one that doenst jitter horribly? Depends on where you get it from. If you get one of the old Abyssi then yes it will jitter. I have the "LoL version" which is new and doesn't jitter. Maybe order directly from Razer? They dont have the LoL version in stock, and they take 4 days to deliver to the UK (costing about $12-14 more in total than other stores) so im still debating what to do... ive heard the LoL version can jitter too and talked to one guy who returned three back-to-back from different stores and still couldnt find one that worked on a qxc
A qxc? I use an Allsop XL. You're thinking too much about it. Get one from a source that isn't hocking off reusable mice. If it doesn't work oh well.
else
{ get a logitech mini. if it's good enough for BW pros, it's good enough for you  }
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On October 14 2011 21:12 Srdjan2311 wrote:Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old + Show Spoiler +And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft.
Prediction is found on every mouse. You cannot have a mouse, at all really, without prediction.
Without prediction. Even if you were to draw a straight line in real life. The line would be all over the place.
http://www.overclock.net/mice/771171-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc-7.html
Picture for example. This is what a mouse with zero prediction produces when made to draw a straight line.
![[image loading]](http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/turbosupercharger/image001.png)
And I have been polling my mouse at 500 and 1k for close to 8 years now. Even the newer 518's benefit from it. The skip only means that the mouse was unable to provide an answer to the poll I believe.
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On October 15 2011 14:26 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 21:12 Srdjan2311 wrote:Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old + Show Spoiler +And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft. Prediction is found on every mouse. You cannot have a mouse, at all really, without prediction. Without prediction. Even if you were to draw a straight line in real life. The line would be all over the place. http://www.overclock.net/mice/771171-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc-7.htmlPicture for example. This is what a mouse with zero prediction produces when made to draw a straight line. And I have been polling my mouse at 500 and 1k for close to 8 years now. Even the newer 518's benefit from it. The skip only means that the mouse was unable to provide an answer to the poll I believe.
You are not polling at 1k... your polling rate is unstable and jumping all over the place, from 240hz to 1.1k, with alternating negative and positive acceleration because of it...
I cant draw ANYTHING NEAR that picture, not even close... at 800dpi, moving 1/800'th of an inch up or down interrupts the straight line, and it is impossible to not accidently move that much...
Either your mouse has far more prediction than you think, or you are using the wrong settings in MSpaint and your line is more than 1 pixel thick (or being software corrected) because i couldnt draw 10% of that picture to save my life at even 400dpi
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On October 15 2011 14:36 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 14:26 Medrea wrote:On October 14 2011 21:12 Srdjan2311 wrote:Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old + Show Spoiler +And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft. Prediction is found on every mouse. You cannot have a mouse, at all really, without prediction. Without prediction. Even if you were to draw a straight line in real life. The line would be all over the place. http://www.overclock.net/mice/771171-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc-7.htmlPicture for example. This is what a mouse with zero prediction produces when made to draw a straight line. And I have been polling my mouse at 500 and 1k for close to 8 years now. Even the newer 518's benefit from it. The skip only means that the mouse was unable to provide an answer to the poll I believe. You are not polling at 1k... your polling rate is unstable and jumping all over the place, from 240hz to 1.1k, with alternating negative and positive acceleration because of it... I cant draw ANYTHING NEAR that picture, not even close... at 800dpi, moving 1/800'th of an inch up or down interrupts the straight line, and it is impossible to not accidently move that much... il attach a picture in a sec
Thats because you have mouse prediction. As I said EVERY mouse has prediction. If a manufacturer is telling you there mouse has no prediction they are lying. Also check how the application works, if it receives no input it calculates the polling rate over the time.
Also read the link.
Also try to understand what "polling rate" means. The motherboard doesn't try to rip the bits out of the mouse, thats not how it works. Polling rate is how often the motherboard checks the device for input. If the change state is still 0, it moves on. Thats why that application will read a lower polling rate.
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
On October 15 2011 14:39 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 14:36 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:26 Medrea wrote:On October 14 2011 21:12 Srdjan2311 wrote:Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old + Show Spoiler +And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft. Prediction is found on every mouse. You cannot have a mouse, at all really, without prediction. Without prediction. Even if you were to draw a straight line in real life. The line would be all over the place. http://www.overclock.net/mice/771171-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc-7.htmlPicture for example. This is what a mouse with zero prediction produces when made to draw a straight line. And I have been polling my mouse at 500 and 1k for close to 8 years now. Even the newer 518's benefit from it. The skip only means that the mouse was unable to provide an answer to the poll I believe. You are not polling at 1k... your polling rate is unstable and jumping all over the place, from 240hz to 1.1k, with alternating negative and positive acceleration because of it... I cant draw ANYTHING NEAR that picture, not even close... at 800dpi, moving 1/800'th of an inch up or down interrupts the straight line, and it is impossible to not accidently move that much... il attach a picture in a sec Thats because you have mouse prediction. As I said EVERY mouse has prediction. If a manufacturer is telling you there mouse has no prediction they are lying. Also check how the application works, if it receives no input it calculates the polling rate over the time. Also read the link.
That depends how you define prediction... as far as ive seen it used before, it is used only to describe forcing straight lines to be drawn ("predicting" the line you was trying to draw with an inaccurate hand)
with that definition, yeah, all mouse have prediction.
But nobody uses that definition
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On October 15 2011 14:44 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 14:39 Medrea wrote:On October 15 2011 14:36 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:26 Medrea wrote:On October 14 2011 21:12 Srdjan2311 wrote:Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old + Show Spoiler +And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft. Prediction is found on every mouse. You cannot have a mouse, at all really, without prediction. Without prediction. Even if you were to draw a straight line in real life. The line would be all over the place. http://www.overclock.net/mice/771171-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc-7.htmlPicture for example. This is what a mouse with zero prediction produces when made to draw a straight line. And I have been polling my mouse at 500 and 1k for close to 8 years now. Even the newer 518's benefit from it. The skip only means that the mouse was unable to provide an answer to the poll I believe. You are not polling at 1k... your polling rate is unstable and jumping all over the place, from 240hz to 1.1k, with alternating negative and positive acceleration because of it... I cant draw ANYTHING NEAR that picture, not even close... at 800dpi, moving 1/800'th of an inch up or down interrupts the straight line, and it is impossible to not accidently move that much... il attach a picture in a sec Thats because you have mouse prediction. As I said EVERY mouse has prediction. If a manufacturer is telling you there mouse has no prediction they are lying. Also check how the application works, if it receives no input it calculates the polling rate over the time. Also read the link. That depends how you define prediction... as far as ive seen it used before, it is used only to describe forcing straight lines to be drawn ("predicting" the line you was trying to draw with an inaccurate hand) with that definition, yeah, all mouse have prediction. But nobody uses that definition
It is important to recognize that as the true definition, since it is indeed what is going on.
It is true that some less than reputable mice have overdone prediction. But it is important to note that there is no clear line between prediction and not prediction. How aggressive the prediction is for a mouse is up to the developer only.
EDIT: Also by recognizing that all mice have prediction, it enables us to measure its effects, especially as far as polling rate is concerned.
As we can see from that article, the true enemy is polling rate. Faster polling rates means less prediction is required.
You know that graph where the MX518 draws all straight lines and the intellimouse doesn't? At default poll rate this mouse draws a lot of overtly straight lines. At 1k I am able to make slight gradients that were impossible with a lower polling rate.
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
On October 15 2011 14:39 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 14:36 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:26 Medrea wrote:On October 14 2011 21:12 Srdjan2311 wrote:Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old + Show Spoiler +And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft. Prediction is found on every mouse. You cannot have a mouse, at all really, without prediction. Without prediction. Even if you were to draw a straight line in real life. The line would be all over the place. http://www.overclock.net/mice/771171-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc-7.htmlPicture for example. This is what a mouse with zero prediction produces when made to draw a straight line. And I have been polling my mouse at 500 and 1k for close to 8 years now. Even the newer 518's benefit from it. The skip only means that the mouse was unable to provide an answer to the poll I believe. You are not polling at 1k... your polling rate is unstable and jumping all over the place, from 240hz to 1.1k, with alternating negative and positive acceleration because of it... I cant draw ANYTHING NEAR that picture, not even close... at 800dpi, moving 1/800'th of an inch up or down interrupts the straight line, and it is impossible to not accidently move that much... il attach a picture in a sec Thats because you have mouse prediction. As I said EVERY mouse has prediction. If a manufacturer is telling you there mouse has no prediction they are lying. Also check how the application works, if it receives no input it calculates the polling rate over the time. Also read the link. Also try to understand what "polling rate" means. The motherboard doesn't try to rip the bits out of the mouse, thats not how it works. Polling rate is how often the motherboard checks the device for input. If the change state is still 0, it moves on. Thats why that application will read a lower polling rate.
I understand what it means.
The program works fine.
If you are not moving your mouse, "if the change state is still 0" then the application simply doenst update.
A new line is added for every poll while the mouse is moving, and nothing changes while the sensor is not reading movement.
Whatever setting i use, my polling rate stays the same. If it is set to 1000hz, it fluxuates from 998 to 1002 or so, if i set 250hz, it sits around 248-252. Your mouse seems to be broken as hell with those readings, and with the massive fluxuations in polling rate
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On October 15 2011 14:48 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 14:39 Medrea wrote:On October 15 2011 14:36 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:26 Medrea wrote:On October 14 2011 21:12 Srdjan2311 wrote:Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old + Show Spoiler +And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft. Prediction is found on every mouse. You cannot have a mouse, at all really, without prediction. Without prediction. Even if you were to draw a straight line in real life. The line would be all over the place. http://www.overclock.net/mice/771171-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc-7.htmlPicture for example. This is what a mouse with zero prediction produces when made to draw a straight line. And I have been polling my mouse at 500 and 1k for close to 8 years now. Even the newer 518's benefit from it. The skip only means that the mouse was unable to provide an answer to the poll I believe. You are not polling at 1k... your polling rate is unstable and jumping all over the place, from 240hz to 1.1k, with alternating negative and positive acceleration because of it... I cant draw ANYTHING NEAR that picture, not even close... at 800dpi, moving 1/800'th of an inch up or down interrupts the straight line, and it is impossible to not accidently move that much... il attach a picture in a sec Thats because you have mouse prediction. As I said EVERY mouse has prediction. If a manufacturer is telling you there mouse has no prediction they are lying. Also check how the application works, if it receives no input it calculates the polling rate over the time. Also read the link. Also try to understand what "polling rate" means. The motherboard doesn't try to rip the bits out of the mouse, thats not how it works. Polling rate is how often the motherboard checks the device for input. If the change state is still 0, it moves on. Thats why that application will read a lower polling rate. I understand what it means. The program works fine. If you are not moving your mouse, "if the change state is still 0" then the application simply doenst update. A new line is added for every poll while the mouse is moving, and nothing changes while the sensor is not reading movement. Whatever setting i use, my polling rate stays the same. If it is set to 1000hz, it fluxuates from 998 to 1002 or so, if i set 250hz, it sits around 248-252. Your mouse seems to be broken as hell with those readings, and with the massive fluxuations in polling rate
There are no fluctuations. The device is overpolled on purpose. The application is reading normal. All polls take place around 1000, 500, or 250. This is normal for all overpolled devices. Newer mice update faster than mine is all this means.
Overpolling is not dangerous or harmful to accuracy in any way. Remember you are just checking to see if the device has changed anything.
EDIT: And some 333's but Ill mention that later.
UPDATE: Here is another picture, this is me going fairly psychotic with the mouse. Compare with the poster that was below me earlier.
+ Show Spoiler +
Notice that the values are all way way lower. This is because way less change happened between polled movements, and I was really whipping my mouse around. Also notice that there were no skipped values. Also the perceived polling rate was a constant 1000 or 500.
This is because even though the MX518 is really old mouse, it updates faster than 250 times a second. It updates faster than 500 times a second in fact. But users do not understand how important this is. Because users are polling there mouse well below the update value of the mouse, prediction plays a bigger role in there mousing practices than it should.
And to emphasize again. Polling is done by the motherboard. Not the mouse. Saying my mouse is broken, and pointing to polling rate, makes no sense.
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On October 15 2011 14:52 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 14:48 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:39 Medrea wrote:On October 15 2011 14:36 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:26 Medrea wrote:On October 14 2011 21:12 Srdjan2311 wrote:Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old + Show Spoiler +And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft. Prediction is found on every mouse. You cannot have a mouse, at all really, without prediction. Without prediction. Even if you were to draw a straight line in real life. The line would be all over the place. http://www.overclock.net/mice/771171-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc-7.htmlPicture for example. This is what a mouse with zero prediction produces when made to draw a straight line. And I have been polling my mouse at 500 and 1k for close to 8 years now. Even the newer 518's benefit from it. The skip only means that the mouse was unable to provide an answer to the poll I believe. You are not polling at 1k... your polling rate is unstable and jumping all over the place, from 240hz to 1.1k, with alternating negative and positive acceleration because of it... I cant draw ANYTHING NEAR that picture, not even close... at 800dpi, moving 1/800'th of an inch up or down interrupts the straight line, and it is impossible to not accidently move that much... il attach a picture in a sec Thats because you have mouse prediction. As I said EVERY mouse has prediction. If a manufacturer is telling you there mouse has no prediction they are lying. Also check how the application works, if it receives no input it calculates the polling rate over the time. Also read the link. Also try to understand what "polling rate" means. The motherboard doesn't try to rip the bits out of the mouse, thats not how it works. Polling rate is how often the motherboard checks the device for input. If the change state is still 0, it moves on. Thats why that application will read a lower polling rate. I understand what it means. The program works fine. If you are not moving your mouse, "if the change state is still 0" then the application simply doenst update. A new line is added for every poll while the mouse is moving, and nothing changes while the sensor is not reading movement. Whatever setting i use, my polling rate stays the same. If it is set to 1000hz, it fluxuates from 998 to 1002 or so, if i set 250hz, it sits around 248-252. Your mouse seems to be broken as hell with those readings, and with the massive fluxuations in polling rate There are no fluctuations. The device is overpolled on purpose. The application is reading normal. All polls take place around 1000, 500, or 250. This is normal for all overpolled devices. Newer mice update faster than mine is all this means. Overpolling is not dangerous or harmful to accuracy in any way. Remember you are just checking to see if the device has changed anything. EDIT: And some 333's but Ill mention that later. UPDATE: Here is another picture, this is me going fairly psychotic with the mouse. Compare with the poster that was below me earlier. + Show Spoiler +Notice that the values are all way way lower. This is because way less change happened between polled movements, and I was really whipping my mouse around. Also notice that there were no skipped values. Also the perceived polling rate was a constant 1000 or 500. This is because even though the MX518 is really old mouse, it updates faster than 250 times a second. It updates faster than 500 times a second in fact. But users do not understand how important this is. Because users are polling there mouse well below the update value of the mouse, prediction plays a bigger role in there mousing practices than it should. And to emphasize again. Polling is done by the motherboard. Not the mouse. Saying my mouse is broken, and pointing to polling rate, makes no sense.
If polling is done on the motherboard always, why do i have a hardware switch on my mouse to adjust it?
You shouldnt be getting those results on mouse movement recorder either way with perfect tracking
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On October 15 2011 15:27 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 14:52 Medrea wrote:On October 15 2011 14:48 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:39 Medrea wrote:On October 15 2011 14:36 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:26 Medrea wrote:On October 14 2011 21:12 Srdjan2311 wrote:Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old + Show Spoiler +And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft. Prediction is found on every mouse. You cannot have a mouse, at all really, without prediction. Without prediction. Even if you were to draw a straight line in real life. The line would be all over the place. http://www.overclock.net/mice/771171-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc-7.htmlPicture for example. This is what a mouse with zero prediction produces when made to draw a straight line. And I have been polling my mouse at 500 and 1k for close to 8 years now. Even the newer 518's benefit from it. The skip only means that the mouse was unable to provide an answer to the poll I believe. You are not polling at 1k... your polling rate is unstable and jumping all over the place, from 240hz to 1.1k, with alternating negative and positive acceleration because of it... I cant draw ANYTHING NEAR that picture, not even close... at 800dpi, moving 1/800'th of an inch up or down interrupts the straight line, and it is impossible to not accidently move that much... il attach a picture in a sec Thats because you have mouse prediction. As I said EVERY mouse has prediction. If a manufacturer is telling you there mouse has no prediction they are lying. Also check how the application works, if it receives no input it calculates the polling rate over the time. Also read the link. Also try to understand what "polling rate" means. The motherboard doesn't try to rip the bits out of the mouse, thats not how it works. Polling rate is how often the motherboard checks the device for input. If the change state is still 0, it moves on. Thats why that application will read a lower polling rate. I understand what it means. The program works fine. If you are not moving your mouse, "if the change state is still 0" then the application simply doenst update. A new line is added for every poll while the mouse is moving, and nothing changes while the sensor is not reading movement. Whatever setting i use, my polling rate stays the same. If it is set to 1000hz, it fluxuates from 998 to 1002 or so, if i set 250hz, it sits around 248-252. Your mouse seems to be broken as hell with those readings, and with the massive fluxuations in polling rate There are no fluctuations. The device is overpolled on purpose. The application is reading normal. All polls take place around 1000, 500, or 250. This is normal for all overpolled devices. Newer mice update faster than mine is all this means. Overpolling is not dangerous or harmful to accuracy in any way. Remember you are just checking to see if the device has changed anything. EDIT: And some 333's but Ill mention that later. UPDATE: Here is another picture, this is me going fairly psychotic with the mouse. Compare with the poster that was below me earlier. + Show Spoiler +Notice that the values are all way way lower. This is because way less change happened between polled movements, and I was really whipping my mouse around. Also notice that there were no skipped values. Also the perceived polling rate was a constant 1000 or 500. This is because even though the MX518 is really old mouse, it updates faster than 250 times a second. It updates faster than 500 times a second in fact. But users do not understand how important this is. Because users are polling there mouse well below the update value of the mouse, prediction plays a bigger role in there mousing practices than it should. And to emphasize again. Polling is done by the motherboard. Not the mouse. Saying my mouse is broken, and pointing to polling rate, makes no sense. If polling is done on the motherboard always, why do i have a hardware switch on my mouse to adjust it? You shouldnt be getting those results on mouse movement recorder either way with perfect tracking
I think I might just have to make a blog post about this. Polling rate/prediction interplay is so poorly understood by the community at large.
Adjusting the master update rate of the device doesnt change anything on the motherboards side. If you had a 50k polling rate button on your mouse it would only show what the motherboard was taking polls at, which is determined by what drivers were installed.
And I already explained why my values are perfectly normal so try to go back and check up on that. If the values were not shifting between 1k and 500 THEN I would be in trouble. The MX 518 does not create data a full 1,000 times a second, when the null value is found (Null does not mean Zero, they are two different things), the value is re-polled by the motherboard on the next pass, that creates a net 500 polling rate. If it takes 3 times, 333, and 4 times 250. Which ones pop up more is determined by speed of the mouse, and how the update rate of the mouse divides into the polling rate.
That application will not draw lines when the value is ZERO ( this is NOT the same as NULL). ZERO is the value the mouse provides the motherboard when a change has not occured.
This is why PS/2 peripherals will always have an edge. The motherboard doesn't poll those devices. PS/2 technology works on hardware interrupts.
EDIT: Keyboards work this way as well. However ALL USB keyboards only create data 200 times a second. That is why certain keyboards like the thermaltake mechanical i believe, one of the keyboards that says it supports 1k polling rate, is bullshit.
That being said I have one non-mouse device that IS polled at 1k, and that is my beatmania controller. Beatmania is impossible to play with only 125 hz polling rate. And the device is so simply constructed (11 outputs) that it can be polled however many times you want to.
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
On October 15 2011 15:37 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 15:27 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:52 Medrea wrote:On October 15 2011 14:48 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:39 Medrea wrote:On October 15 2011 14:36 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:26 Medrea wrote:On October 14 2011 21:12 Srdjan2311 wrote:Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old + Show Spoiler +And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft. Prediction is found on every mouse. You cannot have a mouse, at all really, without prediction. Without prediction. Even if you were to draw a straight line in real life. The line would be all over the place. http://www.overclock.net/mice/771171-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc-7.htmlPicture for example. This is what a mouse with zero prediction produces when made to draw a straight line. And I have been polling my mouse at 500 and 1k for close to 8 years now. Even the newer 518's benefit from it. The skip only means that the mouse was unable to provide an answer to the poll I believe. You are not polling at 1k... your polling rate is unstable and jumping all over the place, from 240hz to 1.1k, with alternating negative and positive acceleration because of it... I cant draw ANYTHING NEAR that picture, not even close... at 800dpi, moving 1/800'th of an inch up or down interrupts the straight line, and it is impossible to not accidently move that much... il attach a picture in a sec Thats because you have mouse prediction. As I said EVERY mouse has prediction. If a manufacturer is telling you there mouse has no prediction they are lying. Also check how the application works, if it receives no input it calculates the polling rate over the time. Also read the link. Also try to understand what "polling rate" means. The motherboard doesn't try to rip the bits out of the mouse, thats not how it works. Polling rate is how often the motherboard checks the device for input. If the change state is still 0, it moves on. Thats why that application will read a lower polling rate. I understand what it means. The program works fine. If you are not moving your mouse, "if the change state is still 0" then the application simply doenst update. A new line is added for every poll while the mouse is moving, and nothing changes while the sensor is not reading movement. Whatever setting i use, my polling rate stays the same. If it is set to 1000hz, it fluxuates from 998 to 1002 or so, if i set 250hz, it sits around 248-252. Your mouse seems to be broken as hell with those readings, and with the massive fluxuations in polling rate There are no fluctuations. The device is overpolled on purpose. The application is reading normal. All polls take place around 1000, 500, or 250. This is normal for all overpolled devices. Newer mice update faster than mine is all this means. Overpolling is not dangerous or harmful to accuracy in any way. Remember you are just checking to see if the device has changed anything. EDIT: And some 333's but Ill mention that later. UPDATE: Here is another picture, this is me going fairly psychotic with the mouse. Compare with the poster that was below me earlier. + Show Spoiler +Notice that the values are all way way lower. This is because way less change happened between polled movements, and I was really whipping my mouse around. Also notice that there were no skipped values. Also the perceived polling rate was a constant 1000 or 500. This is because even though the MX518 is really old mouse, it updates faster than 250 times a second. It updates faster than 500 times a second in fact. But users do not understand how important this is. Because users are polling there mouse well below the update value of the mouse, prediction plays a bigger role in there mousing practices than it should. And to emphasize again. Polling is done by the motherboard. Not the mouse. Saying my mouse is broken, and pointing to polling rate, makes no sense. If polling is done on the motherboard always, why do i have a hardware switch on my mouse to adjust it? You shouldnt be getting those results on mouse movement recorder either way with perfect tracking I think I might just have to make a blog post about this. Polling rate/prediction interplay is so poorly understood by the community at large. Adjusting the master update rate of the device doesnt change anything on the motherboards side. If you had a 50k polling rate button on your mouse it would only show what the motherboard was taking polls at, which is determined by what drivers were installed. And I already explained why my values are perfectly normal so try to go back and check up on that. If the values were not shifting between 1k and 500 THEN I would be in trouble. The MX 518 does not create data a full 1,000 times a second, when the null value is found (Null does not mean Zero, they are two different things), the value is re-polled by the motherboard on the next pass, that creates a net 500 polling rate. If it takes 3 times, 333, and 4 times 250. Which ones pop up more is determined by speed of the mouse, and how the update rate of the mouse divides into the polling rate. That application will not draw lines when the value is ZERO ( this is NOT the same as NULL). ZERO is the value the mouse provides the motherboard when a change has not occured.This is why PS/2 peripherals will always have an edge. The motherboard doesn't poll those devices. PS/2 technology works on hardware interrupts. EDIT: Keyboards work this way as well. However ALL USB keyboards only create data 200 times a second. That is why certain keyboards like the thermaltake mechanical i believe, one of the keyboards that says it supports 1k polling rate, is bullshit. That being said I have one non-mouse device that IS polled at 1k, and that is my beatmania controller. Beatmania is impossible to play with only 125 hz polling rate. And the device is so simply constructed (11 outputs) that it can be polled however many times you want to.
I knew ps/2 keyboards didnt have the input lag from USB polling or the 3nkr issues, but without polling on mice etc, too, what is the justification for using USB? ps/2 seems superior in every way aside from the "hot plug-in" or whatever that really doesnt matter for anything
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On October 15 2011 16:27 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 15:37 Medrea wrote:On October 15 2011 15:27 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:52 Medrea wrote:On October 15 2011 14:48 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:39 Medrea wrote:On October 15 2011 14:36 Cyro wrote:On October 15 2011 14:26 Medrea wrote:On October 14 2011 21:12 Srdjan2311 wrote:Prediction has nothing to do with your mouse being broken. You overclocked the polling rate to 1000hz and mx518 is stable only up to 250hz. So run your hidusbf again and set it to 250 if you want your mouse to survive without permanent damage. Screenshot from my mx518 4 years old + Show Spoiler +And prediction isn't found in every single mouse, even the old deathadder 3g has toggleable prediction, even older intelli series and wmo have no prediction and so on, not that it matters in starcraft. Prediction is found on every mouse. You cannot have a mouse, at all really, without prediction. Without prediction. Even if you were to draw a straight line in real life. The line would be all over the place. http://www.overclock.net/mice/771171-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc-7.htmlPicture for example. This is what a mouse with zero prediction produces when made to draw a straight line. And I have been polling my mouse at 500 and 1k for close to 8 years now. Even the newer 518's benefit from it. The skip only means that the mouse was unable to provide an answer to the poll I believe. You are not polling at 1k... your polling rate is unstable and jumping all over the place, from 240hz to 1.1k, with alternating negative and positive acceleration because of it... I cant draw ANYTHING NEAR that picture, not even close... at 800dpi, moving 1/800'th of an inch up or down interrupts the straight line, and it is impossible to not accidently move that much... il attach a picture in a sec Thats because you have mouse prediction. As I said EVERY mouse has prediction. If a manufacturer is telling you there mouse has no prediction they are lying. Also check how the application works, if it receives no input it calculates the polling rate over the time. Also read the link. Also try to understand what "polling rate" means. The motherboard doesn't try to rip the bits out of the mouse, thats not how it works. Polling rate is how often the motherboard checks the device for input. If the change state is still 0, it moves on. Thats why that application will read a lower polling rate. I understand what it means. The program works fine. If you are not moving your mouse, "if the change state is still 0" then the application simply doenst update. A new line is added for every poll while the mouse is moving, and nothing changes while the sensor is not reading movement. Whatever setting i use, my polling rate stays the same. If it is set to 1000hz, it fluxuates from 998 to 1002 or so, if i set 250hz, it sits around 248-252. Your mouse seems to be broken as hell with those readings, and with the massive fluxuations in polling rate There are no fluctuations. The device is overpolled on purpose. The application is reading normal. All polls take place around 1000, 500, or 250. This is normal for all overpolled devices. Newer mice update faster than mine is all this means. Overpolling is not dangerous or harmful to accuracy in any way. Remember you are just checking to see if the device has changed anything. EDIT: And some 333's but Ill mention that later. UPDATE: Here is another picture, this is me going fairly psychotic with the mouse. Compare with the poster that was below me earlier. + Show Spoiler +Notice that the values are all way way lower. This is because way less change happened between polled movements, and I was really whipping my mouse around. Also notice that there were no skipped values. Also the perceived polling rate was a constant 1000 or 500. This is because even though the MX518 is really old mouse, it updates faster than 250 times a second. It updates faster than 500 times a second in fact. But users do not understand how important this is. Because users are polling there mouse well below the update value of the mouse, prediction plays a bigger role in there mousing practices than it should. And to emphasize again. Polling is done by the motherboard. Not the mouse. Saying my mouse is broken, and pointing to polling rate, makes no sense. If polling is done on the motherboard always, why do i have a hardware switch on my mouse to adjust it? You shouldnt be getting those results on mouse movement recorder either way with perfect tracking I think I might just have to make a blog post about this. Polling rate/prediction interplay is so poorly understood by the community at large. Adjusting the master update rate of the device doesnt change anything on the motherboards side. If you had a 50k polling rate button on your mouse it would only show what the motherboard was taking polls at, which is determined by what drivers were installed. And I already explained why my values are perfectly normal so try to go back and check up on that. If the values were not shifting between 1k and 500 THEN I would be in trouble. The MX 518 does not create data a full 1,000 times a second, when the null value is found (Null does not mean Zero, they are two different things), the value is re-polled by the motherboard on the next pass, that creates a net 500 polling rate. If it takes 3 times, 333, and 4 times 250. Which ones pop up more is determined by speed of the mouse, and how the update rate of the mouse divides into the polling rate. That application will not draw lines when the value is ZERO ( this is NOT the same as NULL). ZERO is the value the mouse provides the motherboard when a change has not occured.This is why PS/2 peripherals will always have an edge. The motherboard doesn't poll those devices. PS/2 technology works on hardware interrupts. EDIT: Keyboards work this way as well. However ALL USB keyboards only create data 200 times a second. That is why certain keyboards like the thermaltake mechanical i believe, one of the keyboards that says it supports 1k polling rate, is bullshit. That being said I have one non-mouse device that IS polled at 1k, and that is my beatmania controller. Beatmania is impossible to play with only 125 hz polling rate. And the device is so simply constructed (11 outputs) that it can be polled however many times you want to. I knew ps/2 keyboards didnt have the input lag from USB polling or the 3nkr issues, but without polling on mice etc, too, what is the justification for using USB? ps/2 seems superior in every way aside from the "hot plug-in" or whatever that really doesnt matter for anything
I think you got this now, but just to make sure. I don't have accel of any kind (pos or neg) from overpolling the device, but I am pretty sure that wasn't entirely what you meant.
Why do we use USB at all? More power to the product (backlights, USB hubs, any other onboard device and so forth), and more inputs. PS/2 keyboards will never recognize more than the standard amount of keys, so media keys, side buttons, volume knobs etc, these are never recognized.
Thats it. For absolute fidelity, you will definitly see some pro players use PS/2 keyboard. They are the fastest. Das Keyboard purists insist upon it in fact.
With good reason too, its a direct line into the hardware.
EDIT: For mice its a little bit more up in the air. But for keyboards, unless you have an addiction to those extra keys, PS/2 will always be superior in the e-sports mentality.
UPDATE: PS/2 yields no benefits for mice as long as the mouse is polled properly. Polled properly means that the motherboard is checking on the mouse as fast as the mouse is taking measurements. So for a 666 hz mouse. 500 is underpolling the mouse, 1k is proper polling. However for absolute fidelity it still will not beat PS/2 (though it will come damn close). But the industry for mice is very driver driven. I suggest USB slot for mice overall.
ADDENDUM: For modern day motherboards, go 1k polling rate or bust. Older motherboards will freeze when forced to 1k. For those 500hz should be fine.
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interesting read, thx for the info Medrea. If i'm understanding correctly what the zowie guy said is basically they took the sensor from ikari optical which has prediction(in the commonly known meaning) and made the polling rate 1000hz and now the mouse has less prediction(in the other meaning). What happens then with the deathadder 3g (a mouse with no prediction in the commonly known meaning) which is stable at 1000hz unlike the mx518. Even less prediction? Or is the mouse being able to respond to every poll from the motherboard somehow a bad thing? I'm not clear on this. And what reason do you have to assert that your results in the mouse movement recorder are a consequence of prediction if the mentioned deathadder even with the prediction firmware passes the test and mx518 does not. Could you run the latest mmr 1.7(link) with these parameters:
MouseMovementRecorder.exe -alwayscatchup -showcatchupdelay
It will show the actual delay between the mouse movement and the pointer movement (up to a max of 500 microseconds before it gives up). Im curious what are your results at 1000hz mx518.
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On October 15 2011 23:40 Srdjan2311 wrote:
What happens then with the deathadder 3g (a mouse with no prediction in the commonly known meaning) which is stable at 1000hz unlike the mx518. Even less prediction?
Ok I need to make something clear. There is no instability. I am overpolling the device. The results are EXACTLY as expected. Here is how the breakdown works. The MX518 in my hand I estimate updates around 800 times a second (actually a little higher or lower than that but for example purposes this will do), varying on a bunch of different factors.
The first poll reads nothing. .200ms later the mouse updates.
-poll reads the mouse. .400 ms later the mouse updates.
-poll reads the mouse. .600 ms later the mouse updates.
-poll reads the mouse. .800 ms later the mouse updates.
-poll reads the mouse. Hard to say since it is the exact same time in this example, but lets say the mouse has not produced a value yet. If it doesn't here it will definitly will on the next poll.
The polling rate will be measured by that application as 500/1000/1000/1000/500. It is normal and perfectly stable.
It is easy to figure out what to expect given those flags you gave me.
-alwayscatchup -showcatchupdelay
+ Show Spoiler +
Yes as expected. Consistent mu's of 500 the whole way, because the device is overpolled not overpolled, it is because of windows 7 5/11. Also a good screenshot for reading the phenomenon above.
Notice how the pattern is always 2 to sometimes 4 1k's and then a 500. I tried my best to whip the mouse around as much as I could. The pattern is VERY stable. The imperfections you see are a combination of human error, and sometimes imprecision. In the screenshot above, I was probably making a turn.
EDIT: After rereading through I found that some people could be confused by the green blocks. The green blocks means the mouse on screen moved less than the mouse told the operating system.
This is NOT negative acceleration. This is lower total velocity. Quite simply, I lowered my sensitivity in windows from 6/11 to 5/11. I don't have to worry about pixel skipping, afaik win7 fixed that problem.
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![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34863088/Skip.png)
![[image loading]](http://www4.slikomat.com/11/1014/dkc-mx518.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34863088/Stable.png)
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34863088/skipless.png)
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