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Hey Guys,
I'm pretty stuck here. I've tried almost every popular method out there, and pretty much every time I wind up with a pretty decent stream (1280x720, 20fps, 1000 Mb/s) that looks and runs well, but my performance hit is so awful in-game that I can't realistically compete. I usually get around 140 FPS normally, but when streaming it's around 15-40 and I feel input lag as well. Been playing with different settings and bitrates for days.
Here's the crazy part- from what I read, I should be able to handle this, and then some. Here's my system:
Intel Core i7 930 (quad core, hyper threaded)
2X AMD Radeon 5870s running Catalyst 11.6
6 GB of DDR3
Win7 64-bit
Running SC2 in Full-screen Window
Speedtest Results: 11.55Mbps down, 1.41 Mbps up. 0% packet loss, 102ms ping, 2ms jitter to SF, CA, USA
I've tried the following tutorials and configs:
Day 9's PC World Tutorial (VHSC + FME)
Destiny's Tutorial (VHSC + FME)
TeamLiquid Ustream Tutorial (VHSC + FME)
Xsplit Beta 4 RC5
SCFC in place of VHSC
All of these yield nearly identical results when configured properly.
Things I've tried:
1. Disabling AMD's Crossfire. No effect.
2. Rolling back to AMD's Catalyst 11.5. No effect.
3. Trying different CPU affinities between SC2 and FME, VHSC. Only makes problem worse.
4. Tried running FME in console mode. No effect.
5. Tried Ustream AND Justin.TV. No difference.
6. Tried lowering the bitrate as low as 400 bps (audio has been MP3, mono, 22kHz, 48 kbps). In VHSC, tried both VP6 and H.264.
7. Lowered SC2 quality to Medium. No effect.
8. No virus scanners or any other weird stuff running in the background.
One thing that I noticed is unique in my setup is that I have a 1920x1200 16:10 monitor. Anyone else using one? However, I just tell VHSC to grab 1920x1080 (16 ) and just live with the crop so that it doesn't have to do any work down-sampling the pixels. Essentially, my entire philosophy through this whole thing has been to get my computer to do the least amount of work possible while being able to still play SC2 at 1920x1200 (high quality) and have a decent 720p stream.
Forgot to mention... my Core i7 isn't getting nearly saturated... all cores are reporting roughly 30% utilization while streaming and playing SC2. No thermal issues or downclocking is occuring. GPU is around 90%.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
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Well, your GPU has nothing to do with it.
Are you OCed at all?
I'd be happy to help you with OCing if you want.
Oh, what FPS are you trying to stream at?
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I have a similar problem, try using FME 2.5 and report back.
It allows me to stream, albeit it's certainly not ideal as it lacks proper multithreading support which means you're likely to have the lower the resolution to stream at a decent framerate.
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No overclocking at all on this rig.
Yes, tried FME 2.5 as well- still same result 
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On July 23 2011 14:46 Tempest261 wrote:No overclocking at all on this rig. Yes, tried FME 2.5 as well- still same result
What's your target stream FPS, and are you interested in trying to OC to see if it helps? You'd need an aftermarket cooler.
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On July 23 2011 14:55 JingleHell wrote:
What's your target stream FPS
You probably missed it (or the OP edited it in), but he says "20fps".
@OP
- I have the same resolution as you - it's not the problem. 
- I have the i7 920 and it's just barely powerful enough to stream 720p with the current software available. If you feel comfortable about OC'ing, go with JingleHell's suggestion.
- I would definitely change the FPS to 30 for better viewer experience.
- The ingame input lag and the FPS drop is "normal" and is due to the way the screen capture driver works. R1CH explains this in his guide. However in the newest version of XSplit you can try out their GameSource feature which grabs frames in a different (and better) way. It's still early beta though, and some have reported worse FPS than normal. You might have to wait it out.
- XSplit settings: Do not use the "slow/slower presets" - i strongly recommend to go with the "default" and quality around ~7-8. I also recommend setting the bitrate at half your connection speed (though R1CH says 75%)
- I have found one method of improving the ingame experience a tiny bit, and that's by giving SC2 access to all 4+4 cores in the affinity settings. By default SC2 only uses the even cores (on the i7 920).
- When using XSplit it is normal/ok that your specific CPU isn't maxed out. If you wan't to see it go up (really no point in this), fiddle with the before mentioned "slower preset" and watch it.
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I can easily try OCing- I've done a ton in the past- just have learned over the years that the perf gains are usually not worth the time.... The part of your suggestion that'd doesn't make sense is that the CPU isn't even close to being hammered. If it were the bottleneck, at least one of those cores would be maxed out.
The reason why SC2's default affinity is set to only even cores is that they probably wanted to only run on real cores- not the virtual ones created by hyperthreading. I've tried enabling the virtual cores and it only seems to make the problem worse.
As for the 30 FPS suggestion- I've tried that. 14.98, 15, 20, 25, 29.98, 30, 60- nothing makes a difference in-game.
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On July 23 2011 21:12 Tempest261 wrote:
The part of your suggestion that'd doesn't make sense is that the CPU isn't even close to being hammered. If it were the bottleneck, at least one of those cores would be maxed out.
I do realize the illogical statement I made, but XSplit just doesn't utilize all the power in a multi-core CPU. R1CH wrote about this in his guide. If you use the "slower preset" or even FME you will se the stress more clearly which is why I find the i7 920 barely capable of streaming (@stock clock).
On July 23 2011 21:12 Tempest261 wrote:
As for the 30 FPS suggestion- I've tried that. 14.98, 15, 20, 25, 29.98, 30, 60- nothing makes a difference in-game.
That was merely a suggestion to give the viewer a better experience (less stuttering).
On July 23 2011 21:12 Tempest261 wrote:
I've tried enabling the virtual cores and it only seems to make the problem worse.
I definitely get better ingame input control when allowing SC2 full control over all cores. This is strange.
Am I right in understanding, that your issues currently are the frame drop when enabling XSplit and the ingame input lag? As said, a frame drop is "normal" with XSplit - it's by design. So is the ingame input lag. IMO, streaming is not invisible to the performance in SC2 on a i7 920/930. I'm trying to relay what expectations you have may not be realistic .
Can you post all your current XSplit settings please?
Have you tried the GameSource feature? Im streaming pretty well with that: 720p example 30fps|1000kbit/s|default preset|quality=10 The ingame FPS sits around ~40 which is playable.
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Yeah I'll have to try a few of these settings when I get back to my PC on Tuesday- I'm unfortunately unable to try anything else until then.
I guess most of my confusion stems from my belief (correct me if I'm wrong) that the i7 930 is still a pretty high-end CPU, and that it makes no sense that the utilization is so low... This is with FME as well. I'm actually a GPU design engineer, so in my head I'm saying to myself that if I assume that there isn't some significant O/S level perf issue, driver issue, or SW issue (w/xsplit or FME) here has to be a bottleneck *somewhere* whether it's the CPU, memory, file I/O (if there was paging)... And from the stats that I have running in my 2nd monitor I'm seeing no perceivable bottlenecks.
Let me be clear- the STREAM looks fantastic. I'm seeing very few to no frame drops from Xsplit or FME unless I go absolutely crazy with the settings. I'm not claiming at all to be an expert in how this stuff works (I'm a HW guy) but in a worst case I'd expect a slow CPU to not be able to render a frame on-time for Xsplit/FME, causing the frame to be dropped and utilization to look low like I'm seeing... But I'm not seeing that, and I'd expect that the game would be untouched without one of the cores being pegged since its frames are rendered by the GPU.
Anyway, I appreciate the suggestions and I will give them a chance when I return on Tues.
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Your upload speed seems to be a bit low for a 720p stream. Try to monitor it during streaming, maybe thats the bottleneck. Check if lower stream settings (smaller resolution or bitrate) will affect your problems.
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On July 24 2011 00:22 Tempest261 wrote:
Yeah I'll have to try a few of these settings when I get back to my PC on Tuesday- I'm unfortunately unable to try anything else until then.
I guess most of my confusion stems from my belief (correct me if I'm wrong) that the i7 930 is still a pretty high-end CPU, and that it makes no sense that the utilization is so low... This is with FME as well. I'm actually a GPU design engineer, so in my head I'm saying to myself that if I assume that there isn't some significant O/S level perf issue, driver issue, or SW issue (w/xsplit or FME) here has to be a bottleneck *somewhere* whether it's the CPU, memory, file I/O (if there was paging)... And from the stats that I have running in my 2nd monitor I'm seeing no perceivable bottlenecks.
Let me be clear- the STREAM looks fantastic. I'm seeing very few to no frame drops from Xsplit or FME unless I go absolutely crazy with the settings. I'm not claiming at all to be an expert in how this stuff works (I'm a HW guy) but in a worst case I'd expect a slow CPU to not be able to render a frame on-time for Xsplit/FME, causing the frame to be dropped and utilization to look low like I'm seeing... But I'm not seeing that, and I'd expect that the game would be untouched without one of the cores being pegged since its frames are rendered by the GPU.
Anyway, I appreciate the suggestions and I will give them a chance when I return on Tues.
Actually SC2 is significantly CPU limited, but only uses two cores. Any GPU that has a right to be on an LGA 1366 board isn't going to be the bottleneck to your in-game FPS.
Feel free to take a peek at the RAM benchies I did in SC2 on my 930.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=245087
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2792/13
The second is an article about memory scaling on Bloomfield CPU's.
http://www.techspot.com/review/305-starcraft2-performance/page13.html
There's some more CPU testing results from another source, without the RAM focus.
Is that enough to convince you that you really are having CPU troubles? I'd suggest at least trying it with HT off, even if you don't OC, maybe the virtual cores are causing some weird issue. If that doesn't work, you might try a mild OC, even just up to 3.4 or so, to see if that helps.
My 930 can boot to 3.8 at 1.25v, and overnight P95 stable at 1.25625v. Batch is 3011B106.
If you turn off HT, you can easily get the thermal headroom to OC to probably a minimum of 3.6 or so on the stock cooler if you don't have an aftermarket cooler. Although odd numeral multipliers seem to work better, so a Bclk 200x17/x19 might be easier. Just don't forget to set uncore to 2xRAM clock minimum.
You might need 25-50mv VTT if you try 3.8Ghz. And as always, OC at your own risk.
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On July 24 2011 00:22 Tempest261 wrote:
I'm actually a GPU design engineer, so in my head I'm saying to myself that if I assume that there isn't some significant O/S level perf issue, driver issue, or SW issue (w/xsplit or FME) here has to be a bottleneck *somewhere* whether it's the CPU, memory, file I/O (if there was paging)... And from the stats that I have running in my 2nd monitor I'm seeing no perceivable bottlenecks
I hear you and agree completely, but with streaming I've found it useful not to underestimate CPU usage. Add to that that XSplit is still in beta
@JingleHell
Thanks for those links - good read!
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I have the same problem, except that my in game fps will say 60-70fps, but when i pan the camera, it stutters as if it was reallly 15fps or so
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Wow your computer has almost identical specs too mine. I have been streaming recently as well. I also had similar issues to you as well. One thing I found that made a huge difference when streaming was setting priorities on my processor from the taskmanager. I would set sc2 to high and iTunes and other programs to low, but I left FMLE and VAC as normal. This solved most of my problems. I'm not sure if this is any different that changing affinities or not as I am not super tech savvy, but this solved any problems I was having.
The only reason I tried this was because I knew Sc2 is CPU intensive so I figured it should be the highest priority. I read through the thread and I don't think I saw that suggestion anywhere.
Perhaps this might help you?
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Hey everyone,
So I tried the following:
1. Overclocked my i7 930 to 4.2 GHz. Surprisingly, it's pretty stable after some TLC.
2. Disabled Hyperthreading (related to #1)
3. Disabled crossfire
4. Set FME/Xplit to cores 3,4 and set to normal priority
5. Set SC2 to cores 1,2 and set to high priority.
Results: nada. Pretty much the same result. Awesome perf when not streaming- noticeably reduced performance when streaming.
Pretty close to giving up until my next system build.
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Uhm. Pretty stable meaning? How'd you test and for how long? I'm assuming you know how to test properly if you can get it to boot at 4.2, but still gota ask.
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Stable meaning I haven't had a freeze/crash/bsod- trust me, I've done this before. I also don't see how that question's relevant.... 920's and 930's hitting 4 GHz+ on air is apparently really common.
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On August 01 2011 09:25 Tempest261 wrote:
Stable meaning I haven't had a freeze/crash/bsod- trust me, I've done this before. I also don't see how that question's relevant.... 920's and 930's hitting 4 GHz+ on air is apparently really common.
If you don't understand how asking how you tested and for how long is relevant, and think comparing your chip to random other ones without even referring to batch numbers is relevant, I have trouble believing you do know how to test properly for stability.
But hey, it's your PC that should be capable of streaming that isn't doing it effectively, so since you know it all, go ahead and blow a pile of money instead of troubleshooting.
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On August 01 2011 09:27 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 09:25 Tempest261 wrote:
Stable meaning I haven't had a freeze/crash/bsod- trust me, I've done this before. I also don't see how that question's relevant.... 920's and 930's hitting 4 GHz+ on air is apparently really common. If you don't understand how asking how you tested and for how long is relevant, and think comparing your chip to random other ones without even referring to batch numbers is relevant, I have trouble believing you do know how to test properly for stability. But hey, it's your PC that should be capable of streaming that isn't doing it effectively, so since you know it all, go ahead and blow a pile of money instead of troubleshooting.
Hey man, I'm an ASIC design engineer- I've not only designed high-speed digital ASICs, but fabricated chips with my bare hands. I understand how ASIC binning works. Not to mention the countless hours of overclocking that I've done for well over a decade on my personal systems. We do not need to waste time vetting my understanding of clock speeds and gate timings. I've stress tested with Prime 95 for hours and trust me, it's stable.
I say your question was irrelevant because either the system would have crashed, or not crashed, during streaming. It was solid. The CPU held out at a solid 4.2 GHz the entire time. Again, do not understand the relevance of the question.
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See, now you answered. I'm not sure how you can not know that it's possible to have an OC that boots and sort of runs, but isn't completely stable, and doesn't perform like it should. It's actually pretty easy. That's why I asked (And I did mention that I was pretty sure the question wasn't relevant for you personally, since you got it to that speed.)
Plenty of people are dumb enough to google it, use someone else's settings, and assume it will work for them perfectly, and then not have a functional OC. Since you just said "pretty stable", I just wanted to verify for sure.
Oh, and your profession doesn't mean much, plenty of people in high tech jobs are horrendous at other PC related stuff.
I really think there's something going on here, your hardware should be fine.
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I looked at your profile system pic and spec and assuming you haven't changed much, our systems are near identical. O/C'ed i7 930, 6 GB DDR3, EVGA FTW3- even the CPU heatsink- I have the same exact one. Only difference are the GPUs.
I'll try sanitizing my codecs and trying again from scratch. Do you stream? If so, what do you use and what are your settings?
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I don't stream, don't have the upload, and don't feel like paying out the ass for the upload. The profile should be up to date. I could squeeze more out of the CPU if I didn't have the RAM oc'ed so far, but my VTT is hitting the danger line, and the memory is handy when you multitask like a demon.
That said, a 930 at an obscene OC should have no trouble with a reasonable stream. I don't have any solid numbers to back that with, but if anything you can use at home can stream, a 930 at those clocks can.
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I agree with you, this has to be something software related. Thanks for helping me rule out the hardware. As a side note, I think I remember reading somewhere that Destiny has a overclocked 930, and his stream is probably one of the best I've seen. I've tried his tutorial, but haven't had much luck with it (he uses FME). After sanitizing my codec situation, I'll give it another go.
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Yeah, Day9 was running a 920@4.0 before his new rig and that was fair up until the end, even with his (apparently) terrible ambient temps.
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On August 01 2011 09:45 JingleHell wrote:
See, now you answered. I'm not sure how you can not know that it's possible to have an OC that boots and sort of runs, but isn't completely stable, and doesn't perform like it should. It's actually pretty easy. That's why I asked (And I did mention that I was pretty sure the question wasn't relevant for you personally, since you got it to that speed.)
Plenty of people are dumb enough to google it, use someone else's settings, and assume it will work for them perfectly, and then not have a functional OC. Since you just said "pretty stable", I just wanted to verify for sure.
Oh, and your profession doesn't mean much, plenty of people in high tech jobs are horrendous at other PC related stuff.
I really think there's something going on here, your hardware should be fine.
What settings did you use for prime95 to test for hours? You can pass fft, but fail blend. I just recently also read that you can get p95 stable, and then have it fail once there's a GPU load. That's actually what happened to me a few hours ago.
I thought I had my 2500k @ 4.8 stable, and League of Legends kept bugging out on me. I didn't know this could happen until today because well, this never happened until today.
That being said, I'm fairly certain the hardware is fine as long as you know these things are in good order:
Temps are good
Upload speed is good
You have the right settings
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Any stabilization in frames when you turn V-sync on?
The only things i can think of are either something has gone wrong with your encoder; or you said that only 30% of your processor is being used when SC2 is open, have you tried messing with your processor affinity, it may override your programs to utilize all of your cores/processing power.
Also how does it perform in other games?
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Have you tried something as simple as not playing in fullscreen?
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i don't think your upload speed can handle those settings
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I think his problem is not related to his stream quality, but his actual in-game performance drops when trying to stream?
Which is weird if they are at 30% with no downclocking?
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My friend has similar specs to yours and he had the same issues with in-game performance dropping. Now I know you all are thinking that the hardware isn't the problem but here's how my buddy fixed his issues. He only had 4 gbs of RAM at the time, so when he upped it 8 gbs he stopped experiencing any in-game frame lag or stuttering.
Why? I don't know, not a computer guru so fuck off, but I'm just putting it out there for you guys to think about.
i7 930 isn't as great as those newer CPU chips but by all means it should be able to handle streaming. Even I was able to stream on a crappy dual core before I upgraded.
Your upload speed is really low too so even at a 1000 bitrate I wouldn't be surprised if you experience some issues there too, but I doubt it'd impact you in-game performance of course. Most likely it's an oddball software problem as you guys have said which is weird since this is happening across different programs.
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If your friend went from 4GB to 8GB of RAM, the specs are very different in some ways that would be rather huge if it was a memory related issue.
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On August 01 2011 23:11 JingleHell wrote:
If your friend went from 4GB to 8GB of RAM, the specs are very different in some ways that would be rather huge if it was a memory related issue.
Yeah there must've been some random thing that would have made memory the issue because I'm quite sure you'd still be able to stream and play SC2 off 4 gbs of ram. But it goes to show how when you have issues with streaming it can be the result of a lot of weird things.
I have an i5 2400 now that is great to use for streaming. But when I used a small program called NicoLime to aid with streaming, the in-game frame rate drops dramatically. So it's definitely possible to have a small bug in coding or w/e to screw up your in-game performance.
The OP should make a post on the xsplit forums or some other forums to see if the developers could look into it.
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On August 01 2011 08:59 Tempest261 wrote:
[...]
Results: nada. Pretty much the same result. Awesome perf when not streaming- noticeably reduced performance when streaming.
But what exactly did you drop down to? From 100+ to 30-40? I know you've stated some figures in the OP, but I'm asking asking after trying out our suggestions.
I must tell you again, and I think I've said three times in this thread - you *will* see a significant performance drop when streaming. It is by design of the capture driver - at least while we wait for GameSource to be released. The real question is: Are you expecting the impossible? If you simply are of the conviction that an avg. ~30FPS with ~0,2 sec ingame delay is unplayable, then streaming is properly not for you.
I've spent literally weeks messing around with streaming. The *only* way I can get a almost undetectable performance drop @720p is the following: Setting my desktop resolution to 1280x720 (I'm using the GPU scaling feature in CCC to compensate) and using the current beta feature of GameSource. And I'm not OC'ing btw. I can still feel I'm streaming though.
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On August 02 2011 00:27 HellGreen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 08:59 Tempest261 wrote:
[...]
Results: nada. Pretty much the same result. Awesome perf when not streaming- noticeably reduced performance when streaming. But what exactly did you drop down to? From 100+ to 30-40? I know you've stated some figures in the OP, but I'm asking asking after trying out our suggestions. I must tell you again, and I think I've said three times in this thread - you *will* see a significant performance drop when streaming. It is by design of the capture driver - at least while we wait for GameSource to be released. The real question is: Are you expecting the impossible? If you simply are of the conviction that an avg. ~30FPS with ~0,2 sec ingame delay is unplayable, then streaming is properly not for you. I've spent literally weeks messing around with streaming. The *only* way I can get a almost undetectable performance drop @720p is the following: Setting my desktop resolution to 1280x720 (I'm using the GPU scaling feature in CCC to compensate) and using the current beta feature of GameSource. And I'm not OC'ing btw. I can still feel I'm streaming though.
You might be on to something. This could all be perception on my part. I don't watch a lot of streams, but I watch Destiny's stream more than any, and it just seems like his stream looks smoother than my in-game experience, which is saying a lot.
It's funny- with Xsplit, I literally see SC2's in-game FPS counter drop from 130+ to 30-40. I notice this a lot. When using FME instead, the frame counter REPORTS 130+ but it feels like 30-40, if not worse. There is also a lot of freezing while panning.
So, to sum it up, I think you could be 100%- I am expecting too much. But on that same note, I have no idea how these guys play all day like that. Maybe they get used to it? But the input lag and stuttering drives me crazy to the point where it's not worth it for me.
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On August 01 2011 17:22 mahnini wrote:
i don't think your upload speed can handle those settings
This could be. I *have* tried very low bitrates, but even still, I do get dropped frames on the output. Do we have any evidence that this would actually affect in-game SC2 performance? I really thought that would just hurt the stream.
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On August 01 2011 16:49 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Have you tried something as simple as not playing in fullscreen?
Playing in windowed full-screen- true full screen flashes like mad in the stream.
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On August 01 2011 15:46 johnprospekt wrote:
Any stabilization in frames when you turn V-sync on?
The only things i can think of are either something has gone wrong with your encoder; or you said that only 30% of your processor is being used when SC2 is open, have you tried messing with your processor affinity, it may override your programs to utilize all of your cores/processing power.
Also how does it perform in other games?
Tried turning on VSYNC. No help. Good idea, though.
I just tried a game of Dirt 3 while streaming. It's as smooth as glass. No perceivable stutter, input lag, or any other issues. The CPU gets pegged even higher- around 70-80% across all cores, compared to SC2's 30%. I'm really scratching my head after this test...
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I have a similar issue to you, stream is fine, but ingame it's like 30-40 FPS down from 100+.
the cores on my 965 4.0ghz OC hit around 80% when streaming 720p and playing in 1080p... which blows my mind as I hear other people with weaker processers with way less utilisation.
8GB ram, 5870 vapor-x stock...
Playing 1080p fullscreen windowed no Vsync..
I just purchased the personal license for xsplit, so I'll try GameSource out tonight and see if it makes a difference...
It's very depressing putting alot of money into a rig, expecting it to be able to stuff like this with no problem.. but it doesnt!! T_T
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On August 02 2011 07:28 Tempest261 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 17:22 mahnini wrote:
i don't think your upload speed can handle those settings This could be. I *have* tried very low bitrates, but even still, I do get dropped frames on the output. Do we have any evidence that this would actually affect in-game SC2 performance? I really thought that would just hurt the stream.
Even if the upload speed can't handle bitrate you're attempting, it shouldn't affect in-game performance (it does not in my experience). Obviously though, your in-game performance will be affected by the settings themselves (either too high stream settings, too high Sc2 settings, both, some other software issue as it seems to be with you).
Still, I really think that CPU should be able to handle playing @ medium and streaming 720p or close to it, especially OC'd like that.
My experience:
+ Show Spoiler +Core i5 2500k @ 4GHz (a bit stronger than your cpu, yes I know)
I play at 1600x900, Ultra GPU settings, High CPU settings.
Using Xsplit, 960x540 I think, quality 6, 1Mb bitrate
I have "2.1 Mb" upload speed (not really it seems, see below).
It plays very smooth but when I watch the stream afterward, it's somewhat choppy, with the frame rate dropping/freezing quite often. Local recording is not like that. So for me, it's an upload limitation.
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I believe Destiny still uses FME and by my experience it feels less sluggish, but it maxed out my (non OC'ed) i7 920 and created stream lag, plus I also like the additional features in XSplit better.
On August 02 2011 07:39 Tempest261 wrote:
I just tried a game of Dirt 3 while streaming. It's as smooth as glass. No perceivable stutter, input lag, or any other issues. The CPU gets pegged even higher- around 70-80% across all cores, compared to SC2's 30%. I'm really scratching my head after this test...
Were you gaming online? And is that game fair to compare with SC2 in terms of CPU load and network communication-wise? I'm not sure. However, if you want you can do a similar test in SC2, try playing "vs. AI" (use the 'custom game' button under "Single Player"). I find this much less sluggish (units are more responsive) when streaming. Which supports the fact that SC2 is hard to please when streaming online games.
@Upload speed:
It is my experience that @720p/30fps you will see upload spikes going up to about 1.4-1.5 Mbit/s, but the far majority of the time, it will stay way below 1 Mbit/s. Your viewers may experience lag during big fights though this can be limited with the quality setting. Yes, theoretically a maxed out upload will interfere with your gaming experience (by eating all bandwidth), but with 1 Mbit/s available it will not be a consistent delay (because you use much less for the most part).
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On August 03 2011 08:05 HellGreen wrote:I believe Destiny still uses FME and by my experience it feels less sluggish, but it maxed out my (non OC'ed) i7 920 and created stream lag, plus I also like the additional features in XSplit better. Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 07:39 Tempest261 wrote:
I just tried a game of Dirt 3 while streaming. It's as smooth as glass. No perceivable stutter, input lag, or any other issues. The CPU gets pegged even higher- around 70-80% across all cores, compared to SC2's 30%. I'm really scratching my head after this test... Were you gaming online? And is that game fair to compare with SC2 in terms of CPU load and network communication-wise? I'm not sure. However, if you want you can do a similar test in SC2, try playing "vs. AI" (use the 'custom game' button under "Single Player"). I find this much less sluggish (units are more responsive) when streaming. Which supports the fact that SC2 is hard to please when streaming online games. @Upload speed: It is my experience that @720p/30fps you will see upload spikes going up to about 1.4-1.5 Mbit/s, but the far majority of the time, it will stay way below 1 Mbit/s. Your viewers may experience lag during big fights though this can be limited with the quality setting. Yes, theoretically a maxed out upload will interfere with your gaming experience (by eating all bandwidth), but with 1 Mbit/s available it will not be a consistent delay (because you use much less for the most part).
I've tried both playing SC2 on ladder and against AI... both feel exactly the same.
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On August 03 2011 21:19 Tempest261 wrote:
I've tried both playing SC2 on ladder and against AI... both feel exactly the same.
Just to make it clear, did you use the "Single Player - Play versus AI" feature? The one in "Multiplayer" is significantly slower for me. I believe the first doesn't use the internet at all/isn't connected to B.net - the difference is really quite noticeable (do also try without streaming). If you don't feel any difference, I'm honestly baffled
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I've been having the same issues as a lot of people in this thread. i7 920 @ 3.8GHz, 6GB DDR3 RAM @ 1600MHz, EVGA GTX 275. I can run pretty much any game at a great fps but if I try to stream it whether it be with XSplit, FMLE, or Procaster, I get awful video lag that makes streaming games frustrating. I have 25 Up/Down and have tried reducing the bitrate, the quality of the stream, game settings in games I stream. Nothing works.
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@Lafali
Have you tried the feature in XSplit called GameSource? It captures using DirectX which gives better performance than the traditional frame-capture method. However afaik it's only available to subscribers.
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No I have not, I plan on subscribing to XSplit soon though. I don't get how I see streams at great framerates all the time especially when its people with lower specs than me and whatever I stream looks awfully choppy.
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I have posted about the same thing on XSplit forums. So here is the deal and a short term work around for the issue...
Most of you have computers which are more than powerful enough to stream at your selected settings but it is causing you to have in game FPS drops even though CPU is at a cruising speed while broadcasting.
If you have the head room as far as CPU usage goes, bump up the broadcasting FPS to 60fps or higher if you can. It will increase your IN GAME FPS AS WELL. This is not a long term solution, and terrible news for people streaming with lower end comps as it does eat up a ton more CPU usage but hey, it is what it is. I went from 30-40 FPS in LoL to 45+ which is at least playable. I am not running the fastest machine either... a stock 965 Phenom.
I have not tried using Game Source yet as I am not a subscriber and there is no guarantee that it will fix this issue, although people seem to be "hinting" that it makes in-game FPS better. Someone needs to do the research. And much like the OP, I am very sensitive when it comes to in game inputs and FPS drops, any FPS drop is considered unacceptable to me in LoL. It blows my mind that people can play with 30fps all day and not even notice it, but I guess we all have our preferences.
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Interesting suggestion.
But bumping the FPS from 30 to 60 will require twice the bandwidth, or reduce the quality by 50% using the same amount of bandwidth. However if you have the extra resources this may help those of you who think playing at ~30 FPS is bad .
The GameSource feature is going to change this (I predict) - according to my tests I get 30-45 ingame FPS when streaming at 30FPS *and* the ingame sluggish unit control is gone. . GameSource is said to shine on high quality streams - Source
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HellGreen, so if I am reading you correct your are currently using GameSource and still only getting 30-45 fps, just with better unit control? What is your CPU usage while broadcasting?
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@interspool
Yes, that is correct. It's sitting around 60-65% (with quality=10, 720p, 30fps, default preset)
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I have a personal license for Xsplit, used GameSource, had no difference.
It's still in beta, obviously, so hopefully we'll see a greater improvement next revision!
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**follow up**
Just built another computer. Stock i7 2600. Streaming 720p @ 25fps and in-game in LoL I am getting 60fps. It is butter smooth and if I pay close attention to the CPU usage, Hyper Threading DOES come into play. CPU usage on any one core (including the HT cores) never rises above I'd say 65%. This results in a fluid stream as well as a perfect in game experience.
I made a post about this on XSplit forums as well. Previously I was 100% certain that running a stream in 25fps would result in no more than 30fps gameplay. Turns out I was wrong. I don't know if I have a faster computer, or Hyper threading to thank, but this does not seem to be the case any longer.
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On August 14 2011 10:28 interspool wrote:
**follow up**
Just built another computer. Stock i7 2600. Streaming 720p @ 25fps and in-game in LoL I am getting 60fps. It is butter smooth and if I pay close attention to the CPU usage, Hyper Threading DOES come into play. CPU usage on any one core (including the HT cores) never rises above I'd say 65%. This results in a fluid stream as well as a perfect in game experience.
I made a post about this on XSplit forums as well. Previously I was 100% certain that running a stream in 25fps would result in no more than 30fps gameplay. Turns out I was wrong. I don't know if I have a faster computer, or Hyper threading to thank, but this does not seem to be the case any longer.
I guess there is something on wrong on my end, then. I've got an i7 @ 3.8GHz, 6GB DDR3 RAM @ 1600MHz, and a GTX 275. I get perfect fps in SC2 and LoL when I'm not streaming but the fps drops a good bit and there is video lag when I stream, nothing is smooth even if I do happen to have 60 fps.
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(OP) UPDATE: Since my last post, I've since moved, and also completely switched my ISP. I was at 12 Mb down, 1 Mb up. I'm now at 20 Mb down, (and more importantly) 2 Mb up. Speeds tested and verified multiple times.
Result? Nothing has changed. This all but kills the silly theory that internet speed has anything to do with local, in-game framerate issues. I (re)-tested with both Xplit and my very conservative Adobe FME settings.
As interspool posted above- this definitely seems like a CPU issue, but an odd one as those of us with the common i7 920/930 in question rarely see CPU utilization get pegged, even when streaming. Nevertheless, it seems that those with the latest Sandybridge architecture are in great shape.
If any of you i7 920/930 users out there figure out how to have a decent stream while getting 60+ FPS in SC2, please share your settings with us. Otherwise, I'm shelving the whole idea of streaming until my next PC upgrade, which will probably be a while from now.
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My suspicion is that this is a memory or cache contention issue, possibly limited to a particular stepping of CPU.
Really difficult to prove though. If it's true, decreasing the number of threads used for video processing should help a lot, but you probably can't handle 720p with a single thread without massive overclocking. Increasing memory bandwidth may help. Removing a memory stick and dropping to dual-channel would be an interesting test.
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Destiny streams with a 930 clocked at like 4ghz or something like that, have you contemplated overclocking?
If I can stream with a q6600 a first generation quad core with minimal lag IG you should be able to stream
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On September 05 2011 15:20 Boblhead wrote:
Destiny streams with a 930 clocked at like 4ghz or something like that, have you contemplated overclocking?
If I can stream with a q6600 a first generation quad core with minimal lag IG you should be able to stream
Yeah, if you look a few posts back (no fault to you, this thread is huge), you'll see that I tried that. I'm up to 4.2 GHz and holding. No change.
I think in his case at least, it might be that he was just able to overcome it with skill. For me, I can't stand the feel of the frame drop *at all*, especially for something like SC2. It's gotta be 60 FPS or I'm not doing it. I'm curious to know what FPS he gets/got with that system (CTRL-ALT-F). At the moment, I hover around 40 FPS, but it definitely "feels" even worse.
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Just as dTox mentioned, dxtory works great.
I am running the trial version right now and i get absoultely no in game performacne drops
As mentioned, the downside is that I will likely have to pay for it.
My only issue now is that my stream is very choppy
Xsplit says I am only uploading at 500 or kbps but my connection is 5 Mbps upload so I am a little lost, but hopefully I can fix it
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Is anybody else getting this problem where Xsplit won't let me add a camera? It worked fine the other day and now there is no "Add Camera" option at the bottom and "File -> Add Camera" doesn't do anything.
Edit: Nvm, it started working again...
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EPT
But maybe its best to just keep it to this thread
