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On April 12 2012 22:10 wo1fwood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 20:54 Medrea wrote:
The question to angle snapping or drift control isn't a yes or no answer. Every mice has it to a degree to filter out noise data, and movements that dont make sense in the physical world. Its a question of whether or not the firmware or sensor is actively trying to predict the future as opposed to just doing its job. You can have very basic prediction to even out imperfections in the pad or surface. Advanced prediction to try and smooth out movements a human cannot purposely make. And very advanced prediction that tries to read your mind.
Obviously for gamers the last is undesirable, this is what usually people talk about when they talk about angle snapping. The second one is debatable. The first one is necessary to have a functional mouse. Its adjustable so sometimes quantifying it can be difficult. Every mouse has a different feel. Maybe the question is not %100 as we don't actually know if all mice have AS or not, but based on what I know, I'm inclined to believe that not all mice have angle snapping. Regardless of this consideration however, your conception of prediction is incorrect as prediction == angle snapping (e.g. the path correction feature included in mice). Let me explain. The confusion over this terminology is that when you say prediction (as a filter of garbage data or erroneous movement) I think you are actually talking in part about the jitter tolerance of the mouse which is entirely different. And when you talk about Prediction trying to guess or "predict" the users movements, this is incongruous to how path correction actually works. Angle Snapping/Drift Control/Prediciton is simple really, it takes movement data within a certain deviation threshold and snaps them to the closest axis.
Yeah, this is correct. This is the diagram that Razer uses to explain drift control on their mice:
![[image loading]](http://www.razerzone.com/images/no-drift.jpg)
So it's actually modifying the data to change the movement of the mouse cursor.
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I would put a big Warning! sign next to anything said by mouse manufacturers though. Time and again, most mouse manufacturers either don't know what they are talking about, or are using marketing "tools" to explain technical considerations. It's very murky, and oftentimes extremely misleading. Case in point with how Drift Control is defined by Razer, the picture is correct, but how they describe it is wildly inaccurate.
If you talk directly to an R&D manager, that is however a different story...
Edit: I was curious and nope, sorry the picture is also exaggerated as well as it's showing about a 20 degree change. Sure its exaggerated to explain it better, but still...
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On April 12 2012 23:10 wo1fwood wrote:
I would put a big Warning! sign next to anything said by mouse manufacturers though. Time and again, most mouse manufacturers either don't know what they are talking about, or are using marketing "tools" to explain technical considerations. It's very murky, and oftentimes extremely misleading. Case in point with how Drift Control is defined by Razer, the picture is correct, but how they describe it is wildly inaccurate.
If you talk directly to an R&D manager, that is however a different story...
Edit: I was curious and nope, sorry the picture is also exaggerated as well as it's showing about a 20 degree change. Sure its exaggerated to explain it better, but still...
lol yeah I don't think it's to scale, that mouse would be unusable otherwise.
Based on what I've heard from Razer users I'm pretty confident in their claim that there is no drift control, at least on the Abyssus/Death Adder. Though I believe earlier versions of the Death Adder did have drift control, and Razer released a firmware updated that removed it.
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That picture doesnt show you how drift control functions though. Just what the worst case scenario looks like. I would consider a mouse with that level of drift control a negative on the mouse. And absolutely no prediction whatsoever on a mouse to also be a huge negative. So i guess a yes or a no should be in red.
Users dont have an easy way of quantifying prediction. And quantifying it is important.
You can test 0 prediction mice with ancient mice. I think I have an old microsoft mouse laying around from when opticals were brand new. That one was kinda hard to use comparitively, you could make a hyper quick slash and the line looked like you slowly drew it, but the polling rates and internal updates were also awful back then. Now in the day of 1000hz polling I assume that the effects of prediction, both zero and non zero, have been allayed somewhat.
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On April 13 2012 05:50 Medrea wrote:
That picture doesnt show you how drift control functions though. Just what the worst case scenario looks like. I would consider a mouse with that level of drift control a negative on the mouse. And absolutely no prediction whatsoever on a mouse to also be a huge negative. So i guess a yes or a no should be in red.
Users dont have an easy way of quantifying prediction. And quantifying it is important.
You can test 0 prediction mice with ancient mice. I think I have an old microsoft mouse laying around from when opticals were brand new. That one was kinda hard to use comparitively, you could make a hyper quick slash and the line looked like you slowly drew it, but the polling rates and internal updates were also awful back then. Now in the day of 1000hz polling I assume that the effects of prediction, both zero and non zero, have been allayed somewhat.
Yeah I think the picture is an exagerated example, but that's sort of the only way you can graphically describe what drift control and angle snapping is. How it actually functions is something entirely different.
And yes, the problem with talking about both prediction is there is realistically no way to quantify it. The issue with drift control and acceleration is similar; though you can quantify it there really is no data out there.
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Im alright with the exaggeration. Though it is still an incomplete picture.
When the human hand draws a mark like that guys forehead. It actually does it in a curve. No one makes an actual straight line when aiming.
The picture would have you believe that drift control makes you draw horizontal lines, when the reality is that it promotes straight lines. Worst case scenario control forces straight lines especially in conjunction with old mice. Modern day mice with normal prediction levels will reproduce the curve. Manufacturers want an accurate mouse as much as anyone does so if it were as easy as no prediction then pretty much all manufacturers would be doing it.
Accel is different though. I dunno what idiot thought accel was a good thing but they need to go away. Im sure its because old people liked it.
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Mouse accel is fine. I don't think I can name a single Quake pro who doesn't use accel nowadays, and those guys have faster reaction times and accuracy than any other player I've seen. It's more about the idiot who thought it was a good idea to give a gaming mouse built-in accel that you can't turn off. Just having built-in hardware accel makes it so hard to fine tune a cfg.
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On April 13 2012 09:53 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Mouse accel is fine. I don't think I can name a single Quake pro who doesn't use accel nowadays, and those guys have faster reaction times and accuracy than any other player I've seen. It's more about the idiot who thought it was a good idea to give a gaming mouse built-in accel that you can't turn off. Just having built-in hardware accel makes it so hard to fine tune a cfg.
How much accel (I assume simple, linear accel?) do Quake pros use?
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On April 13 2012 16:26 IPS.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 09:53 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Mouse accel is fine. I don't think I can name a single Quake pro who doesn't use accel nowadays, and those guys have faster reaction times and accuracy than any other player I've seen. It's more about the idiot who thought it was a good idea to give a gaming mouse built-in accel that you can't turn off. Just having built-in hardware accel makes it so hard to fine tune a cfg. How much accel (I assume simple, linear accel?) do Quake pros use?
I'm not sure of this exactly, but I do know that QL players can change the threshold and magnitude of how much accel they have in game when they have it turned on (not windows accel). Basically they can change how much, and when accel starts to kick in, so it's more predictable than any previous windows variant.
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Why the fuck do quake live pros use acceleration when every other FPS in history reviles it? Is that even correct?
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... maybe they are all using 200 dpi mice!?
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On April 12 2012 09:06 rops wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:33 Cyro wrote:On April 12 2012 05:47 TheToast wrote:On April 12 2012 05:43 Cyro wrote:On April 12 2012 05:25 TheToast wrote:On April 12 2012 05:20 rops wrote:On April 12 2012 04:49 TheToast wrote:On April 12 2012 02:51 rops wrote:I had a old razer deathadder but the scroll button broke, so i bought the new one. When i installed it i noticed that it responded strange. I entered paint and drew some circles.. then it looked like this: ![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15564967/razer35.jpg) Anyhow. i disregarded this and bought a Steelseries sensei. it worked very fine until a couple of days ago when it all started again. now it is the same error with the responding. i have tried to change ports and drivers, nothing helped. now i dont know what to do anymore, i need help BADLY  ((((( I'm not sure what you mean by "the error with the responding". Are you talking about the fact that the circles are going in a generally upper-right direction? That could be caused by a number of things including the mouse surface and what settings you've got in windows. Can you be more specific about exactly what the problem is? They are always going downwards... if i make clockwise circles, they are ending up in the bottom right corner, and anti clockwise they are ending up bottom left. and if i make up-down moves the cursor is going down.. and same with left-right moves. i am using a cloth mat, but the thing is that it worked a couple of days and then it went to the same problem. i feel it affect my moves when i play so i cant make proper moves. Well I don't see how that would affect your gameplay, unless you are regularly moving your mouse around in a circle... The Xai has built in acceleration, so it's hard to make any determinations about what the correct movement should be, given that it all depends on the rate at which you are moving the mouse. As for the death adder, what is your mouse sensitivity set to in Windows and in SC2? Also, did you mess with any sensitivity setting in the driver config other than DPI? I can confirm this happens to me (and i noticed it previously) with 3500dpi deathadder on every hardware DPI setting and with/without onboard sensitivity changes. qck+, straight downwards glide whatever i do, it is unnoticable with frequent (or even infrequent) adjustment playing a game such as sc2, but several Osu beatmaps have me not lifting the mouse for minutes at a time, which means i have to gradually glide 20-30cm upwards, and it leaves no room then to maneuver when i have to move the mouse cursor upwards. It is fine for FPS, where you can anticipate the very slight downwards drag and compensate for it, as it seems to be very linear and predictable. I dont seem to get any left/right drag at all, it is always directly downwards, and i can reproduce it to move down the entire height of qck+ (40cm vertical) in as little as ~5 seconds without actuly moving the cursor up or down on screen. Hmm... I remember reading somewhere that this was actually a glitch with Window's mouse engine. Am I crazy or has anyone else heard this too? Didnt hear this before. I am using 6/11 with accel disabled and also one of the registry fixes that was reccomended to me, not sure which how did you fix it? i really cant play with it on, ive tried every reg fix etc and i use the 6/11 sens etc. the funny thing is that it worked and suddenly it just went back to the buggy moves
I didnt fix it. I compensate for it as well as i can and it doesnt affect me all that much. I use either 450dpi though or more recently 1800dpi with 2 on-the-fly-sensitivity (effective 360dpi?) because i wanted to experiment with it after reading some about the hardware 1800dpi tracking better than the other settings in various ways (unsure) and the dragging effect seems predictable enough to compensate for as long as you have room to move mouse and adjust it infrequently (every 30-60s minimum?) so you are not floating off the top of the pad.
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On April 13 2012 20:08 Medrea wrote:
Why the fuck do quake live pros use acceleration when every other FPS in history reviles it? Is that even correct?
If you have a really low sensitivity, you need a really long time to turn around in-game. That isn't all that bad, when you're playing CS, but in Quake it is. If you have acceleration which is activated when passing a certain threshold (say 2 m/s?!) you are able to combine the benefits of two worlds: precision and speed. The acceleration won't mess with your mind a lot, since it only activates when you turn around - and at such high movement speeds you can't be that precise anyways ...
I wonder if such a threshold acceleration would make sense for SC 2.
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On April 13 2012 22:32 IPS.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 20:08 Medrea wrote:
Why the fuck do quake live pros use acceleration when every other FPS in history reviles it? Is that even correct? If you have a really low sensitivity, you need a really long time to turn around in-game. That isn't all that bad, when you're playing CS, but in Quake it is. If you have acceleration which is activated when passing a certain threshold (say 2 m/s?!) you are able to combine the benefits of two worlds: precision and speed. The acceleration won't mess with your mind a lot, since it only activates when you turn around - and at such high movement speeds you can't be that precise anyways ... I wonder if such a threshold acceleration would make sense for SC 2.
2m/s is a pretty average speed for a low sens player though. You'd probably want it to be at least 3m/s so that your normal movement isn't being messed with.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On April 13 2012 22:32 IPS.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 20:08 Medrea wrote:
Why the fuck do quake live pros use acceleration when every other FPS in history reviles it? Is that even correct? If you have a really low sensitivity, you need a really long time to turn around in-game. That isn't all that bad, when you're playing CS, but in Quake it is. If you have acceleration which is activated when passing a certain threshold (say 2 m/s?!) you are able to combine the benefits of two worlds: precision and speed. The acceleration won't mess with your mind a lot, since it only activates when you turn around - and at such high movement speeds you can't be that precise anyways ... I wonder if such a threshold acceleration would make sense for SC 2.
SC2 uses a 2d UI and thus operates a lot better using a sensitivity that never requires liftoff or adjustment from the mouse, and is also pixel based instead of degrees of rotation etc, so i think any acceleration at all would be bad
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Just seeing if any expert can pinpoint a great mouse for me. I want one with a nice reliable and 'true' sensor. So no drift control, no pixel skipping, acceleration or any of that jazz. Just raw input or whatever is closest to the sensor in the copperhead or diamondback 3g.
Grip: Fingertip with back of mouse very close to palm
Sensitivity: I need minimum of 1200dpi and the highest I use is 1800
Budget: Reasonable
One or two side buttons on left of the mouse is nice but not necessary.
I play HoN, SC2, CS:S, QuakeLive,
Mice with nice rubberised surfaces I do like. I'm using TT-esports Black Element and I'm noticing all sorts of funny stuff happening with the sensor and I just don't agree with the shape and/or laser placement.
I'm looking at the razer salmosa as my mouse of choice the Razer Copperhead isn't so easy to get (and a lot more expensive than it used to be)
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Wait wasn't it the QL players that invented the 180 no scope?
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On April 14 2012 06:42 Medrea wrote:
Wait wasn't it the QL players that invented the 180 no scope?
I've no idea, I never scope on QL. I'd like to think it was Halo ^^
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On April 13 2012 16:26 IPS.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 09:53 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Mouse accel is fine. I don't think I can name a single Quake pro who doesn't use accel nowadays, and those guys have faster reaction times and accuracy than any other player I've seen. It's more about the idiot who thought it was a good idea to give a gaming mouse built-in accel that you can't turn off. Just having built-in hardware accel makes it so hard to fine tune a cfg. How much accel (I assume simple, linear accel?) do Quake pros use?
It's done through the in-game settings/configs so I have no idea how to say it aside from the in-game value. Cypher, who has one of the strongest railguns in Quake, uses a Razer Abyssus at 450 DPI with an in-game sensitivity of 4 and acceleration at 0.1. Rapha, who's notorious for missing a lot of flick rails, uses a WMO 1.1 at 400dpi with an in-game sensitivity of 5 and acceleration at 0.48 (which is more than twice the accel the average Quake pro has). A few QL pros still don't use accel (they just slipped my mind for whatever reason).
On April 13 2012 20:08 Medrea wrote:
Why the fuck do quake live pros use acceleration when every other FPS in history reviles it? Is that even correct?
Because Quake isn't like every other FPS. In Quake, you're expected to be able to track targets with your LG while also being able to flick rails and midair rockets while strafe jumping. There are a few players who use different sensitivities+accel for each weapon (like no accel when LG is out), but the vast majority just use accel all across.
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That boggles my mind. Fortunately I know in the very least they don't use the "enhance pointer precision" option in windows and use something in QL itself, which I would trust more.
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EPT
