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On April 19 2009 05:42 jamvng wrote:
i guess against Muta harass, you would either use the Thor or take as quickly as possible to the Medivac...don't see any other options, as always scouting would be key..
later in the game, Hunter Seeker MIssiles would work against Mutas..
and i think that is the problem..
Mutas preparation only required 3-4 minutes in SC and i don't think it will take longer than that in SC2, while on the other hand Thor require Armory and Tech Lab from a Factory. Starport is up only when Factory is up. Nighthawk is up only when Tech Lab is added (time consuming). Hunter Seeker Missile need to be upgrade (another time consuming). Early Engineering Bay and Turret cut Marine production and delayed the build of other buildings.
i,m sure you know in the past 10 years of SC, how many games end in just 8-9 minutes due to aggressive mutas harass.
IMO, Terran is at disadvantage in early game unit.
-Same way you defend against it in BW, 1-base you hold the ramp w/ scvs and marines, expo you either build a bunker or go MnM (marine+maraunder)
well, i guess thats the answer to an early Zerg rush, but how about Mutas harass?
I dont think Nighthawk is really an option here. Indeed, it does a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE damage, but Barrack>>>Factory>>>Double Starport>>>Tech Lab>>>3-4 Nighthawk>>>Upgrade HSM = Your Base Is Already Destroyed
Hunter Seeker Missile can follow the target for 15 seconds, but the movement is kinda slow, think it can catch up with Mutas?
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On April 19 2009 05:38 genryou wrote:
- How does Terran suppose to defend themselves against the brutal Zergling rush?
Since it is easier to fully block ramps now and you don't need to wait for rax to do it since supplies can also act as gates terran defences are stronger than before. No need for bunkers if they can't reach your marines anyway.
On April 19 2009 05:38 genryou wrote:
- Without a Medic, how does Marine suppose to defend against Mutas harass? Stimpack is a suicide and Reaper is just a bunch of Marine + Jetpack.
Medivacs are on the same tech level as mutas and unless zerg spends gas to build things other than zerglings early reapers will harass his economy to death with their 16 damage per hit against light targets and bombs to take out structures.
Also vikings beats mutas unlike wraiths and are built from the factory so you should be able to counter mutas with them too.
On April 19 2009 05:38 genryou wrote:
- Zerg regenerate HP faster when burrowed, Terran could only wait for Medivac to recover HP.
Zerg do not regen faster when burrowed, what gave you that idea?
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Since it is easier to fully block ramps now and you don't need to wait for rax to do it since supplies can also act as gates terran defences are stronger than before. No need for bunkers if they can't reach your marines anyway.
im pretty sure lings can fit between supply depots now
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On April 19 2009 06:34 Typho0n wrote:Show nested quote +
Since it is easier to fully block ramps now and you don't need to wait for rax to do it since supplies can also act as gates terran defences are stronger than before. No need for bunkers if they can't reach your marines anyway.
im pretty sure lings can fit between supply depots now
They don't, they fixed it like a year ago or something, was in one of their Q&A.
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On April 19 2009 06:12 genryou wrote:
Mutas preparation only required 3-4 minutes in SC and i don't think it will take longer than that in SC2, while on the other hand Thor require Armory and Tech Lab from a Factory. Starport is up only when Factory is up. Nighthawk is up only when Tech Lab is added (time consuming). Hunter Seeker Missile need to be upgrade (another time consuming). Early Engineering Bay and Turret cut Marine production and delayed the build of other buildings.
IMO, Terran is at disadvantage in early game unit.
On April 19 2009 05:38 genryou wrote:
- Without a Medic, how does Marine suppose to defend against Mutas harass? Stimpack is a suicide and Reaper is just a bunch of Marine + Jetpack.
IMO you're thinking too much in terms of BW mechanics and timings. It takes quite a while longer to pump out mutas in SC2. And that's if your only gas consumption is going lair then spire. This time around you'll get steamrolled by MnM (marine n marauder) if you don't make enough glings and banelings for example, and the latter cost gas. I just don't think we can base theories on 2 hatch and 3 hatch muta builds versus a terran for the time being.
That being said, I do agree that early game terran seems a bit bland based on what we've seen (which is very little). Basically I think there are some more dangerous threats than muta harass for an early game terran, because that muta harass won't arrive in the early game unless the zerg is completely open to being raped.
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Since it is easier to fully block ramps now and you don't need to wait for rax to do it since supplies can also act as gates terran defences are stronger than before. No need for bunkers if they can't reach your marines anyway.
something like 9/ Depot and 10/ Barrack? Isnt that building Depot first put T at quite at disadvantage against Z in unit count?
Medivacs are on the same tech level as mutas and unless zerg spends gas to build things other than zerglings early reapers will harass his economy to death with their 16 damage per hit against light targets and bombs to take out structures.
Reaper Harass does make sense here, never really thought about it.
But still, Barrack>>Factory>>Shadow Ops>>rackTech Lab>>4-6 reaper>>Upgrade D-8.
Also vikings beats mutas unlike wraiths and are built from the factory so you should be able to counter mutas with them too.
Viking is built from Starport last time i read
Zerg do not regen faster when burrowed, what gave you that idea?
Not as fast as Roach but it does regen faster when burrowed.
MO you're thinking too much in terms of BW mechanics and timings. It takes quite a while longer to pump out mutas in SC2. And that's if your only gas consumption is going lair then spire. This time around you'll get steamrolled by MnM (marine n marauder) if you don't make enough glings and banelings for example, and the latter cost gas. I just don't think we can base theories on 2 hatch and 3 hatch muta builds versus a terran for the time being.
heh, i guess i did think too much about Mutas.
SC2 MnM seem quite solid, but with lack of Medic, how do you suppose to break the Spine Crawler line, stimpack is not an option untill Medivac is out.
anyway,i try to do a rough calculation regarding the timing needed for Mutas Harass:
Hatchery>>Spawning Pool(65second)>>Lair (80 second)>>Spire(100 second)>>6 Mutas at once(33 second) = 4-5 minutes top
MnM + Medivac
Barrack(65 second)>>Tech Lab (?? second)>>Factory(55 second)>>Starport(65 second)>>Medivac(45 second) = 4+ minutes depend on the number of MnM, faster without Medivac
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Count 200 gas for lair and 250 for spire iirc.... And consider that using both geysers so early in the game means your spending 100 mins on extractors and then investing a whooping 6 drones on gas mining alone. going straight for muta would be a friggin low econ build.
Why are we still talking about muta again? 
EDIT: Theorizing about MnM sunken busts:
I don't think any reasonable amount of spine crawlers would be a match for MnM though. 3 sunken hits a piece won't kill the army fast enough, and for some reason I picture marauder fire bringing down buildings really fast. And I don't know if zerglings alone could help all that much without baneling/roach assist. (I still think this paragraph doesn't make sense in the context of SC2 but I wrote it anyways :p).
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10387 Posts
Reapers with their D-8 Charges could help greatly in a sunken bust. This leads to the possibility of a MnM+R hanbang sunken bust (which would be awesome haha)
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@Hammy - lets just say that i hate mutas harass, and seeing how weak Terran early game is making me worried even more.
Well, the build doesnt have to be pure Mutas, and it goes the same for T, they can't go pure MnM, at least Nighthawk or Medivac is required.
That being said, Terran doesnt really require a significant amount of gas for Marauder and Infantry Upgrade, lets just say the attack consist of 8 rines + 4 Marauder (80 gas) + Medivac (100 gas) + Starport (100 gas) + Ebay (35 gas) + Upgrade +1 (?? gas) = 300+ gas.
but still, this is just a rough calculation, Terran unit supposed to be more expensive compared to Zerg, plus Turret and Bunker, i can't seem to think which race have more advantage in econ.
Mutas is one thing, there are also Baneling, which require a Nighthawk detection.
Reapers with their D-8 Charges could help greatly in a sunken bust. This leads to the possibility of a MnM+R hanbang sunken bust (which would be awesome haha)
that's a decent strategy too, but producing Reaper require Barrack>>Factory>>Shadow Ops>>Tech Lab which mean delay in the attack. The longer the delay, the more risky will it be for Terran.
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On April 19 2009 07:04 genryou wrote:
Reaper Harass does make sense here, never really thought about it.
But still, Barrack>>Factory>>Shadow Ops>>rackTech Lab>>4-6 reaper>>Upgrade D-8.
It was just one iteration were they had reapers requiring factory, they don't currently.
On April 19 2009 07:04 genryou wrote:
Viking is built from Starport last time i read
Hmm, yes they are...
Anyway there are a ton of things Blizz could tweak, minor balance issues such as timins are really easy to balance. If muta harass or something like that is imba they could just increase the build time of spire or something like that.
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Isn't it the Merc Haven rather than the shadow ops? I'm a bit confused about the T's building's names.
And yeah I totally agree, nighthawks will probably be a top priority for terrans in TvZ anyways. Banelings are quite a terrorizing weapon because of their.... terrible terrible damage.
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It was just one iteration were they had reapers requiring factory, they don't currently.
eh? it dont? i thought Shadow Ops require Factory to be build?
Anyway there are a ton of things Blizz could tweak, minor balance issues such as timins are really easy to balance. If muta harass or something like that is imba they could just increase the build time of spire or something like that.
well, i guess your right.
the timing they have now in SC2 is basically the same as in SC, the only problem here is with Terran's unit early game. Most support unit is high up the tier tree.
Isn't it the Merc Haven rather than the shadow ops? I'm a bit confused about the T's building's names.
Merc Heaven it is before they changed it to Shadow Ops.
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Okay, but then what's the building that allows you to make Ghosts?
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Well, no matter what you say if you watch this battle report you see that he gets a "merc compound" and gets out reapers before he builds a factory, they even selects the merc compount at 05:26.
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On April 19 2009 07:58 Hammy wrote:
Okay thanks, but then what's the building that allows you to make Ghosts?
Ghost Academy, if i,m not mistaken.
EDIT: Theorizing about MnM sunken busts:
I don't think any reasonable amount of spine crawlers would be a match for MnM though. 3 sunken hits a piece won't kill the army fast enough, and for some reason I picture marauder fire bringing down buildings really fast. And I don't know if zerglings alone could help all that much without baneling/roach assist. (I still think this paragraph doesn't make sense in the context of SC2 but I wrote it anyways
this is just a rough calculation.
consider that sunken hv 20 damage point and the range of 7, 300 HP
Marauder = 14 damage point, range 6, 125 HP
Marine = 6 damage point, range 4, 50 HP
stimpack is not an option of course until you get a Medivac
i,m not really sure but isnt that Marauder deal concussive damage? (25% large unit, 50% medium unit)
Marine, well, probably woud get killed before getting near the sunken line
Reaper's D-8 require upgrade
just a tought but i think MnM alone cant break the sunken line XP
Well, no matter what you say if you watch this battle report you see that he gets a "merc compound" and gets out reapers before he builds a factory, they even selects the merc compount at 05:26.
ah, you were right.
now that i think about it, if you build MnM, you have to cut Reaper production, and if you goes Reaper, you need to cut Marauder production. MnM + Reapers + D-8 upgrade = alot of gas
there also the need of Medivac and Nighhawk too.
*sigh*
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In BW, by the time the muta harass starts, the terran is usually able to have a starport up by then. WIth a few Medivacs, the rines wud be able to stand their own against the mutas especially with 15 more HP than in BW.
THis is only if you go bio. If you go mech, you have the Thor, if you fast tech to STarport, you'll be able to get Vikings out pretty quickly, which would beat Mutas.
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On April 19 2009 08:11 genryou wrote:
i,m not really sure but isnt that Marauder deal concussive damage? (25% large unit, 50% medium unit)
Have you checked up on starcraft 2 at all? There is no such thing as concussive damage or explosive damage any longer. However marauders do bonus damage vs large (armored in this game) and as such works pretty much like a dragoon but they got enough normal damage to actually be a threat vs lings too.
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On April 18 2009 17:57 Retsukage wrote:Show nested quote +
What I'm trying to say is they're not ready to show off all the tech trees and units because they're not finished coding them
Ive played the game 3 times, twice during both blizzcons and once during WWI. two of those times had full tech trees fully available to show off and display and play out competitively with other competitors at the event. On top of this they actually showed a spur of the moment match between the Progamers Yello and Sonkie at Blizzcon live for everyone to watch....... This argument doesn't really work...
What you played were specific *builds* of the game. Finalizing a build so that it can be played in full by everyone takes a great deal of time and effort. It shaves off weeks from the programming schedule because everyone has to drop what they're working on and come together to create this workable demo. They even have to work out all the bugs so it doesn't crash midgame constantly. In Blizzard's case it was worth it for the publicity and marketing PR they gained through events like Blizzcon.
But again, they can't spend all that time to create a working build for alpha testers to "play for fun" over and over again. It's way too inefficient.
They're constantly scrapping old units and building new ones, creating new tech trees, etc. And even then there are updates to their AI, geometry, terrain, etc. that all need to be taken into account. They can't just make minor alterations to previous builds. I'm not a programmer myself, so I'm not familiar with the finer details of the alpha phase, but there are many, many complexities when creating a brand new 3D game with a new engine.
This is most definitely scripted to show off a few specific units. Even as they were playing programmers were most likely telling them what to do and where to send their units, or at least giving them general guidelines.
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Please latent, can you stop talking about things that you have no clue about...
Alpha phase just means the phase before beta, beta is the public testing phase and currently only people hired by blizzard are testing so it is in alpha. Alpha do not mean that they are still having major crashes or that they are still remaking the game engine from scratch...
They have kept the same unit lineup for a year now, it is fairly stable I would say, they did some graphic changes on the units and moved some tech around. Anyway, Blizzard do got balance testers. Balance testers tests the games balance, to do that they need to play real games such as this one. Is it so damn hard to believe that they did like they said they would do and just took the most interesting of those balance testing games?
And yes, they did state that that was what they were doing, are you saying that they are lying?
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You people are crazy 
Leave it for beta
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I found the BR awesome and fun to watch, and was a real teaser that showed alot of good from the game (which is the reason of doing these - great promo).
I can't wait to play this game..
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