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NOTE: I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT FOG OF WAR, they are different things.
Taken from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=85283
This is a discussion about the shroud of darkness and if it is good/bad and if it should or should not be in sc2.
Here is a description of the different layers of fog/shroud:
On January 03 2009 17:16 geno wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 16:42 Ancestral wrote:On January 03 2009 16:32 .risingdragoon wrote:
x x For anyone who might still be confused, I've created some visual aides using the SC2 Battle Report! The current (or at least recent) incarnation of the SC2 minimap and the types of fog on it. Unexplored vs Explored vs Visible x.
Poll: SC2: Shroud of Blackness
(Vote): Remove it (like they did in War3).
(Vote): Keep it (like in BW).
(Vote): Undecided.
(Vote): Other.
if you vote other, please explain.
Me personally I think the shroud of blackness is good and the removal of it in warcraft3 is newbifying the game. Players who know maps and study them and practice them more are not rewarded for this.
Expanding is 1000 times easier (send your drone to the exact spot to morph without even scouting). Like I said if a noob doesn't know the map he can still see all the little nooks and crannies on the map used for proxying and find your hidden expo with a 1 click scout (or easy waypoint macroing).
Also it is a bit of an art/skill to navigate an overlord in just the right place on the map without even seeing the terrain or anything at all. Think of it like sailing on the open sea.
Furthermore the unexplored terrain can be easily confused with explored terrain and can screw you up late game if you are scouting but are distracted and can't see exactly where the scout is going or has been.
The fully black fog of war also makes the game more ominous, as you do not know what is to be expected from the darkness. This is good for spectating.
It also adds to the universe/story of the game imo (if you wanna take this as an argument). supposeably the opposing factions have just landed/discovered this new land and are just starting out in this unknown place. It just adds that mysterious factor to even multiplayer gaming when you aren't sure what to expect.
Some people actually like exploring and figuring out things on their own.
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Your arguments dont hold up.
New players/n00bs dont play on different maps or new maps. Players who study and practise maps arnt rewarded at all as they are vs other people who have studied and practised the map.
Shroud of Blackness just encourages 1 map play like we see in Broodwar.. where all new/lesser skilled players play on one map and one map only.
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On January 04 2009 08:35 Crompee wrote:
Your arguments dont hold up.
New players/n00bs dont play on different maps or new maps. Players who study and practise maps arnt rewarded at all as they are vs other people who have studied and practised the map.
Shroud of Blackness just encourages 1 map play like we see in Broodwar.. where all new/lesser skilled players play on one map and one map only.
your arguments don't hold up "n00b".
people are going to play whatever the fuck maps they want regardless of fog of war.. And yes this means every "n00b" and their mom is going to play BGH2010. Yea, they may be more willing to play on new maps with the shroud removed but that doesn't mean that anyone will. People conform to standards, if no one joins your obscure map games that's because they don't care to because they like their BGH. If they wanna play new maps they are already willing to learn, they don't need the shroud removed to get them to join a map.
PS- learn to type/spell.
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Sweden33719 Posts
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This is not even a question, Wc3 method all the way. Misclicks caused by not seeing what the map looks like are bad. Making people less likely to play maps they dont know = bad.
Basically everything about it is bad.
Btw what you said about expanding is false, you can't place your hatchery before you've scouted the terrain - I've tried this in WC3.
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On January 04 2009 08:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:
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This is not even a question, Wc3 method all the way. Misclicks caused by not seeing what the map looks like are bad. Making people less likely to play maps they dont know = bad.
Basically everything about it is bad.
Btw what you said about expanding is false, you can't place your hatchery before you've scouted the terrain - I've tried this in WC3.
QFT.
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On January 04 2009 08:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:
--;
This is not even a question, Wc3 method all the way. Misclicks caused by not seeing what the map looks like are bad. Making people less likely to play maps they dont know = bad.
Basically everything about it is bad.
Btw what you said about expanding is false, you can't place your hatchery before you've scouted the terrain - I've tried this in WC3.
I know you can't place buildings without scouting them but you can move the worker to the exact location before you do.
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To address the "no shroud newbifies the game" angle, isn't that sort of an artificial measurement of skill anyways?
I mean, there is a difference between knowing maps and studying and practicing them, as you said, and knowing the basic layout of the map. Just because there isn't shroud doesn't mean that new players are going to know the perfect places to stick their siege tanks, or whether or not it is worth it to break the destructible for a flank (for example).
Arguing about it seems to be much ado about nothing, that's all.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On January 04 2009 08:43 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 08:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:
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This is not even a question, Wc3 method all the way. Misclicks caused by not seeing what the map looks like are bad. Making people less likely to play maps they dont know = bad.
Basically everything about it is bad.
Btw what you said about expanding is false, you can't place your hatchery before you've scouted the terrain - I've tried this in WC3. I know you can't place buildings without scouting them but you can move the worker to the exact location before you do.
Yes, and?
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If they nickel and dime all the little elements of skill; automining, MBS, shroud, MUS, etc. Then the game gets watered down. Where does it end with the simplification?
PS- do not derail this thread about MBS or whatever, I'm just using that as an example.
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On January 04 2009 08:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 08:43 CharlieMurphy wrote:On January 04 2009 08:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:
--;
This is not even a question, Wc3 method all the way. Misclicks caused by not seeing what the map looks like are bad. Making people less likely to play maps they dont know = bad.
Basically everything about it is bad.
Btw what you said about expanding is false, you can't place your hatchery before you've scouted the terrain - I've tried this in WC3. I know you can't place buildings without scouting them but you can move the worker to the exact location before you do. Yes, and?
Ok, you can already create a map in BW where you can have explored fog of war all over the place. So why don't they do that in proleagues?
PS- (I know that you can see ooze upon map spawn with this on, but they could just reveal terrain everywhere but start locations/mains to avoid this problem)
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On January 04 2009 08:37 CharlieMurphy wrote:
your arguments don't hold up "n00b".
Yea, they may be more willing to play on new maps with the shroud removed but that doesn't mean that anyone will. People conform to standards, if no one joins your obscure map games that's because they don't care to because they like their BGH. If they wanna play new maps they are already willing to learn, they don't need the shroud removed to get them to join a map.
PS- learn to type/spell.
So, people will be more willing to play on new maps with the shroud removed? but no-one will play on them?
I dont understand your logic. If removing the shroud encourages more maps to be played at lower level, then where's the downside to it? At the moment on ICCUP, in the D ranks we just have Python with the only real map being played with the reason as thats the map everyone knows.
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On January 04 2009 08:41 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 08:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:
--;
This is not even a question, Wc3 method all the way. Misclicks caused by not seeing what the map looks like are bad. Making people less likely to play maps they dont know = bad.
Basically everything about it is bad.
Btw what you said about expanding is false, you can't place your hatchery before you've scouted the terrain - I've tried this in WC3. QFT.
Could you at least add something more to your post? I hate it when people say "GFT", "this", or even nothing at all. It gives me the impression that all you're trying to do is raise your post count.
Why are so many people so damn lazy to try new maps? I could take literally 10 seconds to look at a standard new map and play without too much trouble. Plus, this separates the newbies from the more experienced players. I think all the people who want shroud of darkness removed are just bitter because they have trouble with it.
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The warcraft 3 method is much better. I am deterred from playing new maps because its annoying to try and memorize hundreds of different maps, especially when playing on iccup and I don't know half of the maps of the weeks, I would be more inclined to play them if I didn't have to have them all prememorized.
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On January 04 2009 08:49 Crompee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 08:37 CharlieMurphy wrote:
your arguments don't hold up "n00b".
Yea, they may be more willing to play on new maps with the shroud removed but that doesn't mean that anyone will. People conform to standards, if no one joins your obscure map games that's because they don't care to because they like their BGH. If they wanna play new maps they are already willing to learn, they don't need the shroud removed to get them to join a map.
PS- learn to type/spell. So, people will be more willing to play on new maps with the shroud removed? but no-one will play on them? I dont understand your logic. If removing the shroud encourages more maps to be played at lower level, then where's the downside to it? At the moment on ICCUP, in the D ranks we just have Python with the only real map being played with the reason as thats the map everyone knows.
.............. People will play 1 map because its easier to play 1 map than it is to play 10 no matter if they have maphack on or not. Are you stupid? How do you not understand this.
Besides, the ladder will most likely be AMM like war3, and it will have 10+ maps for you to thumbs up/down anyways. There is no argument here at all about "MORE MAPS FROM SHROUD OMG".
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On January 04 2009 08:50 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 08:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 04 2009 08:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:
--;
This is not even a question, Wc3 method all the way. Misclicks caused by not seeing what the map looks like are bad. Making people less likely to play maps they dont know = bad.
Basically everything about it is bad.
Btw what you said about expanding is false, you can't place your hatchery before you've scouted the terrain - I've tried this in WC3. QFT. Could you at least add something more to your post? I hate it when people say "GFT", "this", or even nothing at all. It gives me the impression that all you're trying to do is raise your post count. Why are so many people so damn lazy to try new maps? I could take literally 10 seconds to look at a standard new map and play without too much trouble. Plus, this separates the newbies from the more experienced players. I think all the people who want shroud of darkness removed are just bitter because they have trouble with it.
lol are you joking? thats a "Q" as in "Quoted For Truth."
GTF /= QFT
ps - its GTFO anyways lol
BOT, I totally agree with you though. They are just lazy.
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On January 04 2009 08:52 CharlieMurphy wrote:
.............. People will play 1 map because its easier to play 1 map than it is to play 10 no matter if they have maphack on or not. Are you stupid? How do you not understand this.
Yes but wheres the harm in making it easier to play more than one map?
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The Warcraft 3 method is fine. Black shroud doesn't newbify the game at all because you still need to practice and study the map to be good at it. Removing black shroud isn't going to automatically insert all the secrets and knowledge into the player. You still have to research it ahead of time to master the metagame.
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Then we might as well remove the map preview already implemented in BW if you want people to fucking open up the map editor and scrutinize a map...
I see nothing detrimental about this and like someone said above, you're not gonna know every nook and cranny right off the bat WHILE YOU ARE PLAYING. (edit: i'd like to add that a lot of knowledge of a map would come from experience on it, simply analyzing it on a screenshot/editor isn't enough)
You are trying to preserve some useless "skill," its not even skill its plain knowledge that would be easily learned anyways.
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I can't believe someone would be against this. This isn't like MBS or automine, this doesn't massively change the game. Learning where everything is on a map takes 4-5 plays, this way it takes 1. Big deal. People who truly learn the map aren't concerned with this shit, they'll be concerned with things like building positioning and whatnot and that's not easy to learn on the fly. Hell, even if someone showed me a map with this shit on and they've played it plenty before I'd still probably lose because I don't know the map.
tbh I think it'd be even better if the game would tell you which start location your opponent is at on a 3+ player map because there's no skill in getting lucky and you scouting him before he scouts you.
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On January 04 2009 08:59 crazie-penguin wrote:
Then we might as well remove the map preview already implemented in BW if you want people to fucking open up the map editor and scrutinize a map...
I see nothing detrimental about this and like someone said above, you're not gonna know every nook and cranny right off the bat WHILE YOU ARE PLAYING.
You are trying to preserve some useless "skill," its not even skill its plain knowledge that would be easily learned anyways.
studying preflop is different than having a cheat sheet real time.
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