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Update: The Gunboat now has two modes:
Dropship Mode-Flies around at Dropship speed, can carry only 4 infantry units, units cannot do anything inside.
Gunboat Mode-Slows down to the speed of a Battlecruiser, all units can now heal/repair/shoot.
This is a continuation of the idea discussion in the New Ideas Thread about the Terran Gunship:
Upgrade from Dropship (purchasable for each dropship)
Dropship
100 Minerals/100 Gas
Carrying Capacity: 8
160 HP
2 Armor
Upgrade for the Dropship:
Gunboat Upgrade
Requires the dropship to "land" for a time, about 10 seconds, in order to add the extra armor/capabilities/engines. During this time it cannot move and is vulnurable to ground attack, but not air. After this time, it turns into a fully operationable gunboat.
(+100 Minerals, 25 Gas)
The Gunboat gains +50 HP and + 2 Armor, but it can now only carry infantry units and it's capacity is reduced to 4. However, the infantry onboard the gunship can now shoot outside of it using the firing slits. Due to the high altitude and velocity of the Gunboat, all weapons range are reduced by 1 instead of increased.
Essentially, you're paying 200 minerals and 125 gas, or 3/4ths of an ultralisk, to get a 250 HP flying thing that can do about 24 damage/second at a smaller range. It's essentially a flying ultralisk, as an ultralisk's attack speed is equal to that of the marines. Not to mention the 4 marines that should be put inside, and you're looking at a 400/125 expensive unit that can easily be sniped by a few immortals or hydras. However, against light air units, such as mutalisks, the Terrans now have an option to attack without using vikings. I'm not too sure about the possibility of launching nukes out of it, but it'd be like dmatrixing a ghost... and making it fly.
Now, the role of the Gunboat in the Terran forces... what is it? As FrozenArbiter pointed out:
+ Show Spoiler +Other things to figure out tho;
- AA only/both?
- It's role in the terran air force: support fighter? Main terran AA vs Zerg, Viking vs protoss ?
I personally think that it should be able to hit both units. With the reduced range, Marines will only have a range of 3, which means that hydralisks/stalkers will be able to snipe it and mutalisks will be able to go toe-to-toe with it. Plus, with the corrupter, you have to be very careful about letting the enemy have floating bunkers with marines inside. That could be painful.
It's role, I feel, is a way to harass enemy ground formations to weaken them for a Terran attack. In TvZ, Terrans would use irradiate on Ultralisks and the like to weaken them so that a raging Zerg army will be less effective. Without irradiate, I feel that the Gunboat can take over this role, acting as the "eraser" trick, as well as passing over enemy ground formations to shred hapless zerglings.
Against Protoss, I see a different role: namely, some Gunboats will carry marines to shred probes, while other Gunboats will carry marauders to slow down, say, stalkers. The momentary slow that the marauders give will give the Gunboats enough time to finishing massacring the probes and allow them to get away from angry protoss stalkers. In addition, Gunboats may be used as a way to deal with Spirit-Toss-esque zealot and templar formations. In the current build, without vultures, zealot-templar is a very real combination that can handle a terran push. With the Gunboat, the Protoss player will be forced to bring along stalkers and immortals and phoenixes, as unlike the banshee, psi-storm will not be as effective against the Gunboat due to it's shooting-on-the-move. It might also be somewhat practical against carriers, as they can take out the interceptors fairly quickly enmasse and still be able to follow the carriers as they get away. However, against most air units, which are usually armored, they will not be nearly as effective. Nor will they be overly useful against stalkers, immortals, siege tank formations, and others, to name a few. However, Gunboats cannot counter Gunboats effectively either, as the marines cannot do enough damage to overwhelm the armor. This leads to an interesting question: how will TvT work?
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United States20661 Posts
Currently it's a medivac. How do you take that into consideration?
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On April 30 2008 10:32 Last Romantic wrote:
Currently it's a medivac. How do you take that into consideration?
if you want to have medivac's that bad upgrade the dropship into a Gunboat and put medics in it. voila.
keep in mind that nothing is permanent, they've changed everything, so why not the dropship again if it's so contentious?
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Sweden33719 Posts
Oh thought you weren't gonna make it, glad to see you did =]
If anyone wants to know why it's ok to post a unit idea outside the New Ideas thread, it's because I asked him to. Considering how it got such a good reception (and loving the idea myself) in the above mentioned thread, I felt it was only right it had a thread of its own.
I want to mention some benefits of this idea, aside from the fact that refitting a dropship and making it into a haphazard fighting vessel is the most terran thing ever.
- It updates an original SC unit, something blizzard seems fond of.
- It solves the medivac issue as pointed out - if they want mobile medics, have the medics able to heal from within the medivac.
- It creates an unique class of unit, distinct from anything zerg or toss has, and I think it might help with some of the complaints about terran being more mundane than Zerg and Toss.
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Why is it called gunboat? I don't like that sound of that lol.. and why arbitrarily reduce the range of the marines to 3 when inside? Doesn't make much sense to me. :X The concept of floating bunkers doesn't sound so bad though.
edit: nvm I read the "high altitude/velocity" part, but still..
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Sweden33719 Posts
I like Gunboat (which I might have mentioned to him..  ), he orginally called it Gunship.
As to why we should reduce the range, well, what range exactly is gonna be hard to determine without testing but I think reducing it from their normal range is almost a must. They would be extraordinarily powerful with the full bunker range, and you can easily come up with fluff reasons for why it should be harder to obtain maximum range from a high altitude/velocity/whatever.
Anyway, moving on. A unit such as this might open up to some interesting abilities as well, perhaps the ability to board enemy vessels (well.. maybe not zerg, but at least terran)? I think there's just a lot of options and ways to go with a unit like this.
Fill it with marines, it becomes a fighting ship, fill it with medics, it's a medivac. Fill it with SCVs it's a mobile repairship?
Right now I'm just free-flow brainstorming, not sure all I'll think of will be very good, but I see so much potential in this unit.
As for its role, I'm not sure it will really be fast enough (the dship is quite slow) to harass enemy units, especially with such short range. But I can see it having a lot of use in island map TvZs or even vs mutalisks in more regular settings.
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So will gunboats allow ghosts to snipe inside? :D As well as stim, heal, etc. of course. Sounds nasty haha, floating snipers AHHH.
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Sweden33719 Posts
See!? Sooooooo terran, of course what abilities will be useable from inside is something balance will have to determine but the possibilites are vast.
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United States7166 Posts
I like it..especially being able to retain their abilities from inside.
Also, NUKE?!?! omg yes!
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I think it's a really cool idea that would add an interesting, and fitting twist to terran dropship play.
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Man if only firebats were in here.....
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the way you have it structured now, I think it might be too weak/expensive, but other than that, I dont really have a problem with it
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how about a dropship with unitaddon C&C style. Its a regular dropship with 1 slot for w/e, put an SCV in and it can drop units AND repair stuff, put a medic in and it can drop AND heal biological, put a firebat in and you got a dropship that does firedamage, etcetc.
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what would the micro be like in this? would all units in the ship attack one unit, or will it be similar to the bc's attack where it can fire on multiple enemies?
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I know that it's just a game, but I have to point out that physics-wise, reducing the range because of increased height makes no sense. If anything, the increased height should INCREASE the range of the marines.
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On April 30 2008 14:23 Luddite wrote:
I know that it's just a game, but I have to point out that physics-wise, reducing the range because of increased height makes no sense. If anything, the increased height should INCREASE the range of the marines.
or one could argue that since infantry are shooting from a moving vehicle, their accuracy is decreased, and that a shorter range would compensate for that.
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Interesting idea, but it isn't balance. It shouldn't be able to attack BOTH air and ground. It's either one or the other or else it is too good. Bunker is already too good as is. A weakness of a units isn't just cost or else people just mass a lot of the most powerful units and run over their opponent.
EDIT: I take it back. It's a bad idea. It is high HP units that ALSO attacks fast which is BADDD. Ultra/BC/Carriers are good against medium/large units because of their high HP, but don't fight so well against weaker units because of their slow attacks. This Gunboat counters small ground, small air, medium ground, medium air so basically almost everything plus it can fly. Oh and it is range and can be repaired. Imagine, having 12 marine with HP of an ultralisk & can fly. That's basically your gunship right there.
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He said it would only hold 4 marines and, like someone already mentioned, would be similar to a flying bunker.
I'm generally against gimmicky type ideas for for SC2, but this one makes sense for the Terran theme and I could see it making for some sexy micro moves.
I would say you shouldn't be able to focus fire on anything with the 4 marines and would just use it similar to like you would use irradiated vessells to raid drones in TvZ, and for various other things.
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I like it, even though it sounds as if the terrans were going to enslave the zerg race, and have raynor the hutt throw kerrigan into the sarlacc pit. Oops! It definitely could be balanced, with the many factors of hp, cost, speed, abilities inside yay/nay, and amount of units it could hold. I feel like the terrans need more upgradeable or versions of units. I love the viking concept, and maybe if a medivac on the field could transform into a mobile bunker, kinda like the old marauder.
+ Show Spoiler +
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We need some candy for the Terran, I feel that they are a bit left out, and that P 'n Z got all the cool stuff. This thing would certainly make that aspect better.
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Certainly better than the ill conceived medivac idea. The only issue I can see is that it lacks a smooth transition from Dropship to Gunboat if it's carrying units other than infantry or the capacity is beyond that of the gunboat while in dropship form. I suppose it could auto drop all of its cargo during the gunboat command, but I dunno it doesn't seem like it would be smooth or natural to the unit to have essentially two roles.
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So, would it fire while moving, or does it have to stay to shoot? Considering it's a flying bunker, it makes sense that the marines would be able to fire at all times, but that would make it very imbalanced.
Personally, I don't like it. Since it's basically just a flying bunker, it doesn't really feel fresh or innovative, I'd rather see something new. The step from unloading units to letting them shoot from the inside is too small for me to see it as a truly fun unit with a purpose.
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I think its a decent I idea but would [obviously] need to be balanced heavily [nerfed] , like sushi said to only shoot while stationary, AA or both, ect. Could a reduction in accuracy/increased miss chance be another way to balance it? I also think that once the units are loaded into it maybe you cant unload them. Cause really whats the point of even droping units then [i know since oyu said only infantry, machines would still be used, and reduces 8 to 4, but still], so maybe its a one way upgrade. I also cant help but think of APC's from games like C&C. Versatility of unit combinations aside, isnt this essentially giving marines an increased armor upgrade and the ability to fly? I also would like to remind everyone that terran has [unless they removed it?] drop pods also.
And like FA said, what exactly is the role of this unit? or maybe the more important question is, what is the role of the Banshee bomber? or the Reapers? Seems like they might fill simmilar roles. Im afraid there might just be too many other units/simmilar things in the game already [which of course could be gone tomorrow ;p]
I also like the idea that the dropship itself would be upgraded, then the medivac [which I dislike] could be an alternative upgrade that would add to the Terran versitility theme like the Battle Cruiser being able to choose from two different upgrades.I'd also like to point out one reason the medics/firebats/ect are being jugled around is because Blizzard thinks there are just too many infantry units, this is a good way to add a lot of functionality to infantry without actually adding another unit. Maybe you could take this 'one upgrade or the other' idea to other units too. Make terran really adaptable. Which makes me think of Dawn of War's space marines for example which could upgrade their normal machine guns to flame throwers or plasma rilfles. And now that is like well whats the point of firebats - I know, just an example[hey theres another way to limit the amount of infantry units, but not the function^^]. Scv's being able to upgrade their 'drills' to a weak melee weapon? Lol ok maybe thats kinda silly just throwing ideas out there..Terran adapting to battles [more] dynamically is an exciting thought.
Another problem I see with it, as its essentially a flying bunker I cant help but be reminded of phase cannons and how Blizzard removed them because they thought it was more zerg. So isnt this really like a mobile defense, except even stronger? I realize its further along the tech-tree then the current 'mobile sunkens' (or is it? what tier/when is the uprade - if it is an upgrade - availble?) and that might be divergence enough.
Again, I do like the idea, hope my post doesnt seem negative..
Cheers
EDIT: FA also suggested being able to load SCV's for the ability to repair, which reminds me that originally Starports were like mobile repair stations wernt they? Although I think simply loading/unloading Scvs/medics to give it these abilites is too strong. I think it should be a one way upgrade - and limit the unit versatility a bit, cause a flying bunker with 1 medic, 1 scv, and 2 marines is a little too powerful ;p. So maybe you can only mix offensive infantry units (1 ghost, 3 marines) and not support units.
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I love the idea of such a Gunboat.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
this is a great idea, blizzard take note!!
Balance can be sorted by them, but this is DEFINITELY worth considering strongly
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On April 30 2008 10:46 FrozenArbiter wrote:I like Gunboat (which I might have mentioned to him.. ), he orginally called it Gunship. As to why we should reduce the range, well, what range exactly is gonna be hard to determine without testing but I think reducing it from their normal range is almost a must. They would be extraordinarily powerful with the full bunker range, and you can easily come up with fluff reasons for why it should be harder to obtain maximum range from a high altitude/velocity/whatever. Anyway, moving on. A unit such as this might open up to some interesting abilities as well, perhaps the ability to board enemy vessels (well.. maybe not zerg, but at least terran)? I think there's just a lot of options and ways to go with a unit like this. Fill it with marines, it becomes a fighting ship, fill it with medics, it's a medivac. Fill it with SCVs it's a mobile repairship? Right now I'm just free-flow brainstorming, not sure all I'll think of will be very good, but I see so much potential in this unit. As for its role, I'm not sure it will really be fast enough (the dship is quite slow) to harass enemy units, especially with such short range. But I can see it having a lot of use in island map TvZs or even vs mutalisks in more regular settings.
all of that sounds really really sweet. i'd like to see some marine micro with pop-out to stim, and pop back in.
scourge vs dropship = good...
scourge vs gunboat = bad...
scourge vs gunboat with SCVs or medics = good
basically, sounds like an awesome idea!
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On April 30 2008 18:00 nofAcedAgent wrote:
I think its a decent I idea but would [obviously] need to be balanced heavily [nerfed] , like sushi said to only shoot while stationary, AA or both, ect. Could a reduction in accuracy/increased miss chance be another way to balance it? I also think that once the units are loaded into it maybe you cant unload them. Cause really whats the point of even droping units then [i know since oyu said only infantry, machines would still be used, and reduces 8 to 4, but still], so maybe its a one way upgrade. I also cant help but think of APC's from games like C&C. Versatility of unit combinations aside, isnt this essentially giving marines an increased armor upgrade and the ability to fly? I also would like to remind everyone that terran has [unless they removed it?] drop pods also.
being able to shoot while stationary sounds like a horrible idea. That goes in the category of taking away stack mutas, and making vultures only able to shoot while stationary (i believe that is something they have tested with sc2). while you're at it, you might as well require that gunboats may only board 4 marines, no medics or scvs allowed, and marines are not allowed to unboard once boarded.
starcraft is about hard counters, not about nerfs. stop being a pansy.
bring muta stacking and muta micro back in, and that will be the perfect nerf for gunboats.
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I really really like this idea people at blizzard have to read this ASAP
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On April 30 2008 19:03 Polyphasic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2008 18:00 nofAcedAgent wrote:
I think its a decent I idea but would [obviously] need to be balanced heavily [nerfed] , like sushi said to only shoot while stationary, AA or both, ect. Could a reduction in accuracy/increased miss chance be another way to balance it? I also think that once the units are loaded into it maybe you cant unload them. Cause really whats the point of even droping units then [i know since oyu said only infantry, machines would still be used, and reduces 8 to 4, but still], so maybe its a one way upgrade. I also cant help but think of APC's from games like C&C. Versatility of unit combinations aside, isnt this essentially giving marines an increased armor upgrade and the ability to fly? I also would like to remind everyone that terran has [unless they removed it?] drop pods also.
being able to shoot while stationary sounds like a horrible idea. That goes in the category of taking away stack mutas, and making vultures only able to shoot while stationary (i believe that is something they have tested with sc2). while you're at it, you might as well require that gunboats may only board 4 marines, no medics or scvs allowed, and marines are not allowed to unboard once boarded. starcraft is about hard counters, not about nerfs. stop being a pansy. bring muta stacking and muta micro back in, and that will be the perfect nerf for gunboats.
Lol when did I ever say that you should remove mutas or vultures abillity to hit and attack? Im talking strickly about the 'gunboat' and in the OP he suggest it can only board 4 marines. And how does that go into the "catagory" or stacking mutas, this is a completly new unit, and BTW, you CAN NOT use mutas in SC2 like you can in SC1, its a limitation of the current engine. It wasnt my original idea to limit its ablitiy to shoot and move in the first place, it was Sushimans'. This unit has the potential to be extremely overpower and we are simply thinking of ways to limit that. YEAH, fuck it your right that is pansy, lets let ultras fly and shoot nukes out their eyeballs. Please dont be such an ass ><
Slow down and actually read peoples post (INCLUDING THE OP) thorughly before being so rude with your opinions. We are just free-flowing ideas here, its called brain storming. Are you capable of contributing something usefull?
EDIT: by the way, you saying SC is about 'hard counters' pretty much shows what you know. SC is about SOFT counters. And how are we nerfing a unit that doesnt even exist?
Sorry your post is just filled with complete ignorance and misinformation. Get a clue.
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I like this idea cause I think it will make Terran = imba
Not being sarcastic at all.
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United States42682 Posts
Make it as slow as a reaver. You could turn round and make an argument for reavers being imba in bw because on paper they are. But as deadly as they are in combat they are still very limited by other factors, such as reliance on shuttles, reloads and ease of sniping. Give this a slow move speed and standard marine range and you'll see nice micro used to snipe it. Stalkers blink in, destroy it, blink out. Muta micro picking it off as it lags behind the main army. Basically, however strong a flying bunker may appear on paper, it can easily be balanced by other factors in playtesting. I really liked this idea.
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Exactly. Please guys, stop talking about balance. 150 minerals for a spawning pool was imbalanced, 200 minerals is balanced. What's your problem, omg...
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On April 30 2008 19:31 ForAdun wrote:
Exactly. Please guys, stop talking about balance. 150 minerals for a spawning pool was imbalanced, 200 minerals is balanced. What's your problem, omg...
The OP of the thread is talking about balance man, its part of the discussion. I dont understand what your problem with talking about balance is. Discussing these things are how you get instresting new unit ideas in the first place.. "hey everyone lets stop thinking!" ><
Just consider the Valkyrie for example. It can only attack air, now thats is in part to balance it, but it also a defining atribute of the unit. So if it helps you, then just think of it as unit atributes/abilites. Like I said this is how you come up with new ideas I really dont get why its bothering you that people are discussing this - are we forcing you to read the thread? You can easily just stay out. Try contributing something usefull. because "shut up" or "stupid idea" doesnt help anyone. "please stop talking about balance because it profoundly affects me as a person and i think i might die if you continue to have intelligent disscussion!!!1" 
BTW how many years was it before the pool was "balance to 200"? Yeah it was quite a few years..
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I think if something is conceptually sound, as this is, any balance side effects can (and will) be worked out in alpha/beta
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Absolutley Plexa, I agree true balance can only come from playtesting, I still dont see the harm in discussing these things.
I mean you mind as well just delete the op and replace it with "new idea: flying APC"
O well - time to stop investing energy in this thread, cheers guys 
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 30 2008 13:37 useLess wrote:
what would the micro be like in this? would all units in the ship attack one unit, or will it be similar to the bc's attack where it can fire on multiple enemies?
Should it behave like a bunker in that you can't target it? This is another interesting thing to decide.
Btw booh! I'm the only one who likes the name gunboat better than gunship :D crap!! I think a gunship is a flying thingy while a gunboat is, well, a boat? Oh well, Gunship sounds cool too!
On April 30 2008 14:44 [X]Ken_D wrote:
Interesting idea, but it isn't balance. It shouldn't be able to attack BOTH air and ground. It's either one or the other or else it is too good. Bunker is already too good as is. A weakness of a units isn't just cost or else people just mass a lot of the most powerful units and run over their opponent.
EDIT: I take it back. It's a bad idea. It is high HP units that ALSO attacks fast which is BADDD. Ultra/BC/Carriers are good against medium/large units because of their high HP, but don't fight so well against weaker units because of their slow attacks. This Gunboat counters small ground, small air, medium ground, medium air so basically almost everything plus it can fly. Oh and it is range and can be repaired. Imagine, having 12 marine with HP of an ultralisk & can fly. That's basically your gunship right there.
For this reason I believe it should be anti-air only, as mentioned.
However, while I do think it's possible to come up with good ideas for the game, I think we need to leave the balancing of the ideas largely to blizzard (and later us, in the beta).
Doesn't mean we can't discuss the potential balance, it just means I don't think we have the complete picture and can probably not reach any definitive conclusions
And like FA said, what exactly is the role of this unit? or maybe the more important question is, what is the role of the Banshee bomber? or the Reapers? Seems like they might fill simmilar roles. Im afraid there might just be too many other units/simmilar things in the game already [which of course could be gone tomorrow ;p]
Yeah, this and your comment on 'why ever unload' makes me think AA only is best.
This way we give terrans a good AA unit vs light air (if it can't focus fire, like a bunker, it fits the light air counter role even better), something I currently believe they lack (unsure about the vikings, but its missiles seem more suited for taking out bigger things, ie they look like goliath missiles or wraith missiles, both who were sort of bad vs mutas for instance).
A problem with no focus fire tho, is that they will be quite ineffective on their own until you reach a certain number.. However that might be fine.
EDIT: FA also suggested being able to load SCV's for the ability to repair, which reminds me that originally Starports were like mobile repair stations wernt they? Although I think simply loading/unloading Scvs/medics to give it these abilites is too strong. I think it should be a one way upgrade - and limit the unit versatility a bit, cause a flying bunker with 1 medic, 1 scv, and 2 marines is a little too powerful ;p. So maybe you can only mix offensive infantry units (1 ghost, 3 marines) and not support units.
Yeah I wasn't thinking we should let it use all 3 roles at once, maybe make it so you have to have 2 units of the type you want it to be or something
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On April 30 2008 14:44 [X]Ken_D wrote:
Interesting idea, but it isn't balance. It shouldn't be able to attack BOTH air and ground. It's either one or the other or else it is too good. Bunker is already too good as is. A weakness of a units isn't just cost or else people just mass a lot of the most powerful units and run over their opponent.
EDIT: I take it back. It's a bad idea. It is high HP units that ALSO attacks fast which is BADDD. Ultra/BC/Carriers are good against medium/large units because of their high HP, but don't fight so well against weaker units because of their slow attacks. This Gunboat counters small ground, small air, medium ground, medium air so basically almost everything plus it can fly. Oh and it is range and can be repaired. Imagine, having 12 marine with HP of an ultralisk & can fly. That's basically your gunship right there.
The Gunboat cannot counter armored units as well as Ultra/BC/Carriers. First of all, it's only 4 marines, non stimmed, unless you're going to add a medic in there, which in case would have 3 marines, stimmed. Thats 6+6+6 damage, which if used against say any unit with armor would be rather uneffective. It doesn't really counter "small ground" "small air" et. al, either. A Gunboat with 4 marines will lose to a bunker with 4 marines, for instance. Bam. You basically lose 100 Minerals and 125 gas, for instance. Also, against stationary defenses such as spore colonies, missile turrets, and photon cannons, the Gunboat will not be very effective because of the base armor, and they can be "diseased," which should make sense because the Gunboat's tech tier is almost as late as the defiler. It's not like the Dropship, which only requires the Starport and a Research Lab thingy. It may require other tech, or maybe a research upgrade at the lab or something, that wil make it relatively late game.
I mean, if you look at SC1, one of the things that Terran really lacked was a tough, damage dealing, late-game unit. Sure, you had the BC, but when was the last time you saw those used? Whereas the Zerg have Ultralisks and the Protoss has Archons/Carriers/W/E, the Terrans didn't really have anything-they focused mainly on mid-game units. The Gunboat might change how things work. Not to mention it's like morphing a guardian, except that it's vulnerable to ground attack for a period.
Someone mentioned earlier a loaded dropship might work if changed to a dropship. The landing feature will cause all troops on board to leave and land next to the dropship as it's being worked on, removing any mechanical issues.
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On April 30 2008 19:21 Kwark wrote:
Make it as slow as a reaver. You could turn round and make an argument for reavers being imba in bw because on paper they are. But as deadly as they are in combat they are still very limited by other factors, such as reliance on shuttles, reloads and ease of sniping. Give this a slow move speed and standard marine range and you'll see nice micro used to snipe it. Stalkers blink in, destroy it, blink out. Muta micro picking it off as it lags behind the main army. Basically, however strong a flying bunker may appear on paper, it can easily be balanced by other factors in playtesting. I really liked this idea.
The problem with making it slow is that it's role as an "irradiater" is essentially useless, as it won't be able to do anything.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Hm, I'm not too fond of that part - if the dropship can fire at ground units, you'd never need to unload to assault zerg bases when you drop for one. It would also overlap, a little, with the banshee.
If it's AA only, it will be easier to balance, it will fill a niche that is currently empty ever since they removed the last AA only terran unit, and we would avoid it becoming too good. Seeing as how terrans have the thor now, and the siege tank was never a slouch, I don't think the terrans are in desperate need of a very strong lategame unit either.
I agree we can't make it reaver slow tho, about the speed it had as a dropship (maybe sliiiiightly less?) seems fine.
Btw anyone have any thoughts on what I mentioned about possibly allowing it to board other flying units (well, other flying terran units at least, or perhaps only capital ships)? I'm not sure it would fit well but maybe.
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I love this idea...well, not exactly what you are presenting here, but it's very close. A upgrade to dropship which allows Terran infantry use their abilities from inside is great!
GB + Medics = medivac
GB + SCV = repair ship
GB + Reapers = Bomber (not exactly overlapping with Banshee, which has single attack now)
GB + Ghost = oh well, that's something! Snipe, EMP, nukes (and droppods, if they returned)
Isn't that screaming *versatility*?!
Nukes could easily be imba, but fun as hell  .
I's very cool and interesting concept....definitely worth testing I think.
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On April 30 2008 20:33 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Hm, I'm not too fond of that part - if the dropship can fire at ground units, you'd never need to unload to assault zerg bases when you drop for one. It would also overlap, a little, with the banshee.
If it's AA only, it will be easier to balance, it will fill a niche that is currently empty ever since they removed the last AA only terran unit, and we would avoid it becoming too good. Seeing as how terrans have the thor now, and the siege tank was never a slouch, I don't think the terrans are in desperate need of a very strong lategame unit either.
I agree we can't make it reaver slow tho, about the speed it had as a dropship (maybe sliiiiightly less?) seems fine.
Btw anyone have any thoughts on what I mentioned about possibly allowing it to board other flying units (well, other flying terran units at least, or perhaps only capital ships)? I'm not sure it would fit well but maybe.
If it can attack land, I think it'll be very difficult to balance. If it can't, I don't think it'll get much use. There's basically nothing you'd want to take on with this thing if it can only attack air. The only good thing I can think about it is that it can shoot scourge before they get to the ship, but scourge haven't even been mentioned for SC2 afaik.In the end, nobody's gonna pay extra minerals/gas for a dropship with half capacity that can't kill drones. For a second I thought it might be useful as a new corsair role, but why not use a viking instead?
I do like the idea though.
edit to clarify: my point is that, if it can't attack land, I don't see it filling a niche very easily since it'll likely be more expensive and less powerful than other options. The SCVs repairship and medics medivac thing are great ideas, but as far as infantry, I don't see how this is going to be better than a standard dropship full of mnm unless it can shoot land too.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Well for one; Island maps, it could become the primary terran air unit seeing as how it protects the dships AND it ferries your ground units. Or you can upgrade 1 or 2 and have them guard your other dships etc.
The problem with no air-to-ground are in part remedied by the fact that you can actually drop the marines down and attack.
The exact details will have to be worked out, but I can definitely see it becoming a speciality upgrade for maps with islands etc. Maybe if the ground attack is nerfed it'd be possible to have to it attack ground, but it's problematic if the unit becomes too strong.
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Im really liking the sound of these suggestions from the OP, FA and others.
I've notice a lot of concern about the potential 'balance' issue of the gunboat but a lot of people have missed an important factor in cost. While the dship + gunboat upgrade costs x/x (OP suggested 100/100 + 100/25 = 200/125) That's not the 'entire cost' of your gunboat. You have to load it up with 4 marines (or a combination of other infantry units) for it to be effective at all. Thats another 200 minerals right there, so for a flying unit dealing 6+6+6+6 you've paid 400/125. Thats quite a significant investment for one unit. Not only mineral and gas wise, this is also 4 psi for marines, and (probably) 2 psi for the gunboat. 6 Psi is a large chunk of control to be flying around and if the terran were to lose this gunship it would be as costly as a protoss losing a reaver+shuttle in SC1. (just as big a blow in psi count, 25 more gas) . Either way you slice it, if the terran gets too happy over turrets/hydras/pheonix it would cost them BIG TIME. though im not sure what the effects of lockdown would have. Do the marines stop firing? or is there simply no movement etc?
I dont like the idea of it being limited to AA only, as the gunship reminds me of the gunship from HL2. It simply makes sense for the unit to hassle the ground or worker line from the skies. It's a fitting image and a role that makes sense. I can't picture it being the best AA unit anyway. Imagine a zerg releasing 9 mutas on it. after 5/6 shots each that gunship is history along with the marines inside it.
Adding these thoughts, its my feeling that the gunship wouldnt be imba for terran - even with Air and ground capabilities. Obviously the smart terran could unload when his gunship gets to low health, but when you blow a bunker on the ground, the marines dont usually last long - im assuming anything that could kill a gunship would have the ability to clean up the marines.
Moving on.
The thought of a band of marines hijacking another terran dship or flyer makes me tingle. It would add such a new dynamic to the game, however could make for some very frustrating situations and seems almost too much. As a concept i love it, but im personally not convinced in terms of its effect on gameplay ^.^
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I like the idea. Gunship >>>> Medivac.
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On April 30 2008 20:33 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Hm, I'm not too fond of that part - if the dropship can fire at ground units, you'd never need to unload to assault zerg bases when you drop for one. It would also overlap, a little, with the banshee.
If it's AA only, it will be easier to balance, it will fill a niche that is currently empty ever since they removed the last AA only terran unit, and we would avoid it becoming too good. Seeing as how terrans have the thor now, and the siege tank was never a slouch, I don't think the terrans are in desperate need of a very strong lategame unit either.
I agree we can't make it reaver slow tho, about the speed it had as a dropship (maybe sliiiiightly less?) seems fine.
Btw anyone have any thoughts on what I mentioned about possibly allowing it to board other flying units (well, other flying terran units at least, or perhaps only capital ships)? I'm not sure it would fit well but maybe.
The problem with the Gunboat being only AA is simple: it will only be effective against mutalisks. It will be just as situational as the Valkyrie, and nobody will ever use it.
As for when you need to have ground troops, the answer is, quite frankly, all the time. Against spore colonies, gunboats will not be very effective, and if the enemy has too many corrupters, you could lose quite a few gunboats and give the enemy a large amount of flying bunkers to deal with that can't be attacked by siege tanks. You would have to be very careful with them. In addition, you still need siege tanks to deal with swarm and whatnot. Gunboats can't bypass swarm. Siege Tank splash can. Thus, Gunboats will be very easily countered and will not be very useful if they are purely AA. They'll end up like Valkyries.
With low amounts of armor penetration, they won't be able to do much else, they would, in fact, be just like a Valkyrie.
EDIT: Perhaps a way to render it's anti-ground capacities to be nerfed somewhat is to not allow focus-firing, like a bunker. Without the ability to focus on ground units, it will be difficult to, say, wipe out Ultralisks or Lurkers. Of course, drone and zergling formations will be butchered, but by reducing attack damage or accuracy, the Gunboat's anti-protoss use will be situational at best.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Well I was hoping they would be like a useful valkyrie or a corsair =) However you might be right, I'm just worried they'll end up being used to attack drones etc instead of dropping the marines.
Might not be an issue And them never being used is also a good point, it's hard to find the right balance, easy to make them either overpowered or underpowered, but I'm sure blizzard can figure it out.
EDIT: Did they change the banshee from splash to single attack? Because I thought they still had the multiple targets thing, which I felt a Gunship/boat with Air-to-Ground (AtG from here on out) would overlap with.
If the attack has been changed, the no-targetting system would be pretty unique.
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I've got an idea for this.
How about giving the gunboat the ability to switch like the viking into a anti-ground/anti air role?
When the gunboat's flying, units inside could only attack air, and if you had two or three of them filled with firebats and flew them into the middle of a mutalisk cluster, they would tear the mutas to shreds.
If you fill a flying gunboat with ghosts, you could use their abilities air-to-ground (but not normal attacks) from a mobile and armored position - and a ghost gunboat would basically become a science vessel, with the ability to emp, snipe (aka irradiate), lockdown (if in the game) cloak (maybe), or even nuke, if it's balanced. The abilities would run off the ghost's combined mana pools, which could appear as a bar on the gunboat - the more ghosts inside, the more mana.
Fill it with medics, and you have your medivac dropship back, with however many medics you stick inside worth of healing.
Depending on how many scv's you put inside, it could gain an increasing passive repair effect on itself, like a roach.
When you let the gunboat land, you plant it like a building on the grid, and it acts just like a bunker, though with less hp and air armor. The units inside can now attack ground units. Imagine landing a gunship filled with Firebats in the middle of a mineral line (require a lot of timing) , or dropping multiple gunships to create an instant wall-off, or using them as very fast static defenses in a contain or slowpush?
Balance could be achieved by fiddling with the health, making it take a certain time to transform, the build time, only being able to add units while it's in the ground state, and limiting air-to-air and ground-to-ground.
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United States42682 Posts
You could just make it ungradable. Unlike a bunker which uses the marines attack x4 give the gunboat a load of fixed damage attacks. The role would change as the enemy grades changed, for example it'd become less useful late game against zerg ground with carapace but if the zerg didn't grade air it'd be just as useful there. Gives it a more defined role in the game without making it less effective.
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I think that by making the gunship like a bunker, which cannot focus fire on units, it balances itself creates its own little niche in the terran air arsenal, as it would pretty much act as a corsair in that regard, working well against masses of lightly armored air units. The fact that it's an air unit and inconvenient to mass, especially if you have to upgrade/load each one to use and if the health stays the same as the unupgraded dropship means that due to the high investment (dropship + four marines) and low health, players would be cautious of using them as a bread-and-butter unit.
I really love the concept though, and hope blizzard does implement this! Terran seems to have gotten less personality compared to Protoss and Zerg...
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On April 30 2008 21:46 shimmy wrote:
I like the idea. Gunship >>>> Medivac.
totally. Huge bump on this one. Following the discussion with eyes and ears wide open. Sounds like a fantastically versatile unit that could absolutely be made a great tool in the terran arsenal, especially considering the various terrains and obstacles Blizzard have shown so far on the maps.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 30 2008 22:18 Plutonium wrote:
I've got an idea for this.
How about giving the gunboat the ability to switch like the viking into a anti-ground/anti air role?
When the gunboat's flying, units inside could only attack air, and if you had two or three of them filled with firebats and flew them into the middle of a mutalisk cluster, they would tear the mutas to shreds.
If you fill a flying gunboat with ghosts, you could use their abilities air-to-ground (but not normal attacks) from a mobile and armored position - and a ghost gunboat would basically become a science vessel, with the ability to emp, snipe (aka irradiate), lockdown (if in the game) cloak (maybe), or even nuke, if it's balanced. The abilities would run off the ghost's combined mana pools, which could appear as a bar on the gunboat - the more ghosts inside, the more mana.
Fill it with medics, and you have your medivac dropship back, with however many medics you stick inside worth of healing.
Depending on how many scv's you put inside, it could gain an increasing passive repair effect on itself, like a roach.
When you let the gunboat land, you plant it like a building on the grid, and it acts just like a bunker, though with less hp and air armor. The units inside can now attack ground units. Imagine landing a gunship filled with Firebats in the middle of a mineral line (require a lot of timing) , or dropping multiple gunships to create an instant wall-off, or using them as very fast static defenses in a contain or slowpush?
Balance could be achieved by fiddling with the health, making it take a certain time to transform, the build time, only being able to add units while it's in the ground state, and limiting air-to-air and ground-to-ground.
Working off of plutonium's idea. I think the gunboat should be made to change appearance depending upon what kinds of units are inside of it. For example, it should get like a crane arm when there are scv's inside, a medic cross when there are medics, and miniguns when marines are inside. That way its purpose, and its priority from an enemy's perspective, becomes much more evident.
However, at such a point that you can put any unit inside, the gunship idea becomes too unbalanced. I think that when you build a medivac and switch it to a gunship, it remains a gunship and only marines can go inside.
For even further balance purposes, those marines shouldn't be able to disembark. However, in order to compensate for such a loss, the gunship should become faster and have a dedicated anti-air attack. (maybe heat seaking missiles?)
I caution against making the gunship so versitile that any unit can go inside and contribute its own respective powers. Then, allot of the other terran units become obsolete (IE: banshee).
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If you think about it, there's already precedent for this type of unit from Starcraft Ghost's Grizzly, which seems to be very similar to this concept.
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On April 30 2008 19:21 Kwark wrote:
Make it as slow as a reaver. You could turn round and make an argument for reavers being imba in bw because on paper they are. But as deadly as they are in combat they are still very limited by other factors, such as reliance on shuttles, reloads and ease of sniping. Give this a slow move speed and standard marine range and you'll see nice micro used to snipe it. Stalkers blink in, destroy it, blink out. Muta micro picking it off as it lags behind the main army. Basically, however strong a flying bunker may appear on paper, it can easily be balanced by other factors in playtesting. I really liked this idea.
It can be have normal dropship speed without units. With units, it can't move. This is a offensive defensive unit. If only cannons and sunkens can fly anywhere too.
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On April 30 2008 20:23 Caller wrote:
The Gunboat cannot counter armored units as well as Ultra/BC/Carriers. First of all, it's only 4 marines, non stimmed, unless you're going to add a medic in there, which in case would have 3 marines, stimmed. Thats 6+6+6 damage, which if used against say any unit with armor would be rather uneffective. It doesn't really counter "small ground" "small air" et. al, either. A Gunboat with 4 marines will lose to a bunker with 4 marines, for instance. Bam. You basically lose 100 Minerals and 125 gas, for instance. Also, against stationary defenses such as spore colonies, missile turrets, and photon cannons, the Gunboat will not be very effective because of the base armor, and they can be "diseased," which should make sense because the Gunboat's tech tier is almost as late as the defiler. It's not like the Dropship, which only requires the Starport and a Research Lab thingy. It may require other tech, or maybe a research upgrade at the lab or something, that wil make it relatively late game.
I mean, if you look at SC1, one of the things that Terran really lacked was a tough, damage dealing, late-game unit. Sure, you had the BC, but when was the last time you saw those used? Whereas the Zerg have Ultralisks and the Protoss has Archons/Carriers/W/E, the Terrans didn't really have anything-they focused mainly on mid-game units. The Gunboat might change how things work. Not to mention it's like morphing a guardian, except that it's vulnerable to ground attack for a period.
Someone mentioned earlier a loaded dropship might work if changed to a dropship. The landing feature will cause all troops on board to leave and land next to the dropship as it's being worked on, removing any mechanical issues.
Lacking late-game? No, they had tanks which help supports countered everything ground mid to late game. SC1 BC might be lacking, but SC2 BC fixed a lot of their weakness. I don't think Zerg or Protoss would mind trading in their Carriers or Ultralisk for Tanks, another mobile defense. Gunboat moves, spores don't. Why fight spores when you can attack areas where spores aren't? 1 gunship by itself sounds not so strong, but who makes just 1 of anything? Try 8 gunships. Just like 4 marines aren't good, but they become a force to deal with when at 24.
Forget about upgrading a dropship like zerg, just make it come straight out of the starport like the valkryie. People tend to have to think more when they have to pay upfront more.
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I really hate the argument of "well.. it also requires 4 marines which is +200 minerals." It's a nonissue because Terran makes marines anyways. Take for instance Protoss with their Red Archon. Protoss wants to use maelstorm spell just to fight against fast mutalisk. Most of the time, they don't just have DT laying around like marines. They would make expensive DT inorder to have a Red Archon, not have Red Archon whenever they wanted. When 1 marine cost cheaply 50 minerals each and have to make them anyways, it's almost a nonissue to the cost.
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Sweden33719 Posts
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APPROVE IN PLACE OF TORPEDO CANNON FOR BC
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Neat idea, sounds balanced, usefull and I can already imagine how cool this thing would look like in action.
Id even let reapers use their bombs from that dropship 
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On April 30 2008 20:54 adelarge wrote:I love this idea...well, not exactly what you are presenting here, but it's very close. A upgrade to dropship which allows Terran infantry use their abilities from inside is great! GB + Medics = medivac GB + SCV = repair ship GB + Reapers = Bomber (not exactly overlapping with Banshee, which has single attack now) GB + Ghost = oh well, that's something! Snipe, EMP, nukes (and droppods, if they returned) Isn't that screaming *versatility*?! Nukes could easily be imba, but fun as hell . I's very cool and interesting concept....definitely worth testing I think.
having a ghost in a gunboat kind of gives away its location... but it does get extra defense before it can be killed. i'd say you are sacrificing stealth for hp.
in the early middle game, you'll be able to have GB more likely filled with marines, medics, scvs, or reapers. only later will you have ghosts in GBs. I'd imagine that gunboats will come out from starports, so ghosts would be a completely different branch of the tech tree...
that's good though. ghosts in gunboats seem very strong, and shouldn't be available until end game, such as TvT end game.
I already really dislike the warcraft3 thing where if a dropship dies, all the units just occupy the ground underneath it. That is retarded. starcraft2 and gunboats should keep the starcraft model where if a dropship dies, all the units die that are inside.
also, I changed my mind about scourge. most likely, scourge>gunboats, as marines will not have enough time to kill the scourge before they hit the gunboat, but maybe instead of 2 scourge, it will require 4.
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This unit sounds cool to me. Since so many other things are in limbo why not keep this on the table as an option.
On April 30 2008 14:44 [X]Ken_D wrote:EDIT: I take it back. It's a bad idea. It is high HP units that ALSO attacks fast which is BADDD. Ultra/BC/Carriers are good against medium/large units because of their high HP, but don't fight so well against weaker units because of their slow attacks. This Gunboat counters small ground, small air, medium ground, medium air so basically almost everything plus it can fly. Oh and it is range and can be repaired. Imagine, having 12 marine with HP of an ultralisk & can fly. That's basically your gunship right there.
I think the archons are comparable, especially if the gunboats range is decreased.
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gunboat? i hope you're not proposing water units now.
starcraft + water = bad. just like
cats + water = bad
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As much as I love gunships, I have to say that IMO, this is too command&conquer-ish. One of the reasons SC is great is that each unit has a relatively specific role. I think a flying bunker that changes based on the units loaded inside is too versatile. In other RTS games, the firepower and versatility of gunships is offset by either their cost, low health or weakness against a specific unit. Alot of people are saying that we should dismiss the issue of balance for now. I agree that this idea is totally cool and I'd love to see it implemented somehow but there are a finite number of ways you can adjust balance. Personally, I'm against the "oh...it's too power... lets make it more expensive" psychology. Spawning pool for 150min was imba for a very different reason. I don't really know what I'm trying to get at. I'll stop.
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On May 01 2008 06:54 gwho wrote:
gunboat? i hope you're not proposing water units now.
starcraft + water = bad. just like
cats + water = bad
Did you even read the thread?
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I would like it if you could get an upgrade at the control tower one that allows for medivac and one that allows for gunboating. With some balance it would be amazing. I would, I have to say, actually prefer a ground gunboat, like a bunker on wheels :O.
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It's called an APC.
As for the +200 minerals, it's not about the actual trouble of having marines on hand (which everybody does,) it's what you won't be able to do with them. The "everybody has marines" argument would make sense if we were addressing the building-marines time aspect of it, but we aren't, just the 200 minerals (you just paid for them earlier.) A note; an anti-air gunship would not be especially great, in my opinion. An AA-only marine-loaded dropship has less hit points, takes more supply, and is more expensive than a Scout, if you're using it as a combat unit. If it's a transport with defense, it's a slow shuttle that can load two zealots and shoot like a corsair. Hardly impressive.
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I think it should have a default weapon. Like chainguns with a range of 5 and 5 damage?
Because without it, your name is completely invalid.
You wouldn't call a Huey a gunship because it has no default weapon. You'd call an Apache, Hercules, or a HIND a gunship.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Meh I think the point is the marines man the guns / fire out of the ship.
Names don't have to make complete sense.
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How would firebats work with a gunboat?
If the gunboat allows for medics, scvs, and ghosts, then it should allow for firebats. But with 4 firebats and splash damage, a single run would destroy the mineral lines completely.
And names don't have to make sense.
I bring to mind the "Scout", which I've never seen used for scouting.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Firebats would definitely not be able to fire from air to ground tho, I mean come on, flames wont have that kind of reach
Firebats aren't in the game right now anyway, I don't think.
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well... not that saying things matters all that much,
and I think the conversation going on over all this is probably more important than just saying it again in a more official thread:
Yeah! I would love to see the gunship/gunboat put into the game. Balance issues would have to be sorted out of course but I think it's a great idea.
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On April 30 2008 21:46 shimmy wrote:
I like the idea. Gunship >>>> Medivac.
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Although actually someone brought up a good idea earlier, involving the use of the Gunboats having to land in order to attack ground. However, I am not too sure about this, because it would take away from the sort of harrassing that may occur.
My solution for balance is simple: give the Gunboat two modes. In one mode, it is able to move with the speed of a dropship, but the units inside cannot do anything. In the other mode, which will take two seconds to switch between, the gunship moves about the speed of a BC, but the units can now shoot out of. While the modes are switching, the Gunboat is unable to move or shoot. So it's like a flying bunker siege tank. You can call the two modes "Dropship Mode" and "Gunboat Mode."
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I think I'm missing something but it just sounds like a complicated air unit. Although making marines viable later game is cool, It's just an air unit 0.o It also sounds kind of expensive for a harass unit and terran already has stuff that can harass.
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firebats aren't in the game, but what about team melee mode? can protoss/zerg units go in the gunboat?
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On May 01 2008 05:04 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Dark archon.
Lol. I don't know why I always call them Red Archons other than they're red. I don't use dark archons much neither my opponent.
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On May 01 2008 05:30 evanthebouncy! wrote:
APPROVE IN PLACE OF TORPEDO CANNON FOR BC
The gunship doesn't fill in the role of what the SC2 BC splash damage (torpedo cannons?) did. The new SC2 BC splash damage made SC1 TvT significantly improve and decrease the duration of late game.
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Instead make it a mid game upgrade for the bunker to lift off and fly at dropship speed... It has to land again to fire..... or perhaps even remain stationary in the air... Should prolly be a slight hp buff or range buff with the upgrade depending on pricing and prereq tech
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On May 01 2008 08:00 EmeraldSparks wrote:
It's called an APC.
As for the +200 minerals, it's not about the actual trouble of having marines on hand (which everybody does,) it's what you won't be able to do with them. The "everybody has marines" argument would make sense if we were addressing the building-marines time aspect of it, but we aren't, just the 200 minerals (you just paid for them earlier.) A note; an anti-air gunship would not be especially great, in my opinion. An AA-only marine-loaded dropship has less hit points, takes more supply, and is more expensive than a Scout, if you're using it as a combat unit. If it's a transport with defense, it's a slow shuttle that can load two zealots and shoot like a corsair. Hardly impressive.
"I need an APC pickup"
"mid air is like sex. if you don't have it, it's all you think about. if you do have it, it's nothing special."
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anyways, about the gunboat. I think it can land for certain units to fire from inside. for example, though for marines, medics, scvs, and ghosts to do stuff, it can stay flying (but can't move when ghost is doing calldown), the gunboat will have to land for other units to be able to fire from inside, such as marauders, and firebats.
basically, any unit that has attack that can attack ground or air, will be able to shoot from inside the gunboat even when its flying. but if the unit only has a ground to ground attack (marauder, firebat, vulture, etc), then the gunboat will have to land for it to attack ground, and the gunboat will not be able to attack air.
it only makes sense. if a unit can attack land and ground, it should be able to attack land and ground while flying. but if a unit can only attack ground, then it will not be able to attack air while flying, and it will only be within reach of ground when it has landed.
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i propose a namechange. something like hover APC - which is what it is. that may be a horrible name, but gunboat really doesn't fit at all. boatboat boat boats go on water. ship can be air or water. but if it goes on land, pleaes don't call it a boat. esp if it converted from the dropship.
also, converting/upgrading/evolving a unit is a very zerg race mechanic, and if something like the gunboat was to be made, it should be a separate unit, or construction by the scv, not a conversion from an existing unit.
question: if it's comparable to an ultra in tanking abilities, the thor then really gets pushed out of its niche, as already troubled that it is with the seige tank.
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On April 30 2008 10:32 Last Romantic wrote:
Currently it's a medivac. How do you take that into consideration?
medivacs don't allow units to fire from it right?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 02 2008 01:38 gwho wrote:
i propose a namechange. something like hover APC - which is what it is. that may be a horrible name, but gunboat really doesn't fit at all. boatboat boat boats go on water. ship can be air or water. but if it goes on land, pleaes don't call it a boat. esp if it converted from the dropship.
also, converting/upgrading/evolving a unit is a very zerg race mechanic, and if something like the gunboat was to be made, it should be a separate unit, or construction by the scv, not a conversion from an existing unit.
question: if it's comparable to an ultra in tanking abilities, the thor then really gets pushed out of its niche, as already troubled that it is with the seige tank.
Gunboat/Gunship >>>>>>>> hover APC, APC is a boring name and this thing flies (possibly in space) so it needs a naval (space) or airforcy (assuming it's atmosphere only) name imo. APC is just kinda meh, it's already an APC before you upgrade it.
Converting/upgrading is a very zerg mechanic since when? Because the only race to have had any evolving is zerg? Yeah, but patching on some armorplates and adding a couple of gun-ports is, lorewise, about as terran as you can get.
In fact, there's precedence for this in the current SC2 build - battlecruisers currently have the choice between upgrading yamato or the air-to-ground plasma thingy, on an individual basis.
I'm strongly opposed to the unit being built on its own as this would 1) remove an interesting terran mechanic 2) take up another slot in the starport. 3) We would have 2 different dropships -_- can't happen.
Finally I don't see a 250 hp flying air unit competing with a X hundred HP ground unit
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i agree with frozenarbiter. The Viking isn't some norwegian warrior with a sword and the shield. Why the hell isn't it?
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This idea is actually very good and interesting, imho. The problem is that Blizzard, although following suggestion, will refuse to adopt a concept entirely created outside of their dev team
Yet this still is very promising
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On May 02 2008 05:35 minus_human wrote:This idea is actually very good and interesting, imho. The problem is that Blizzard, although following suggestion, will refuse to adopt a concept entirely created outside of their dev team Yet this still is very promising
The idea for the Supply Depots retracting into the ground was admittedly swiped verbatim from a poster on TL.
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You're calling this flying dropship a boat?
That's like calling a submarine a gunplane.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 02 2008 06:03 5HITCOMBO wrote:
You're calling this flying dropship a boat?
That's like calling a submarine a gunplane.
The name is my fault, he called it Gunship, I suggested gunboat cause I like that more -.- But I'm obviously alone.
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Gunboat/Gunship >>>>>>>> hover APC, APC is a boring name and this thing flies (possibly in space) so it needs a naval (space) or airforcy (assuming it's atmosphere only) name imo. APC is just kinda meh, it's already an APC before you upgrade it.
i agree, hover APC is terrible, and i even shotmyself in that post. i was just alluding to the essense of what it literally is - and the name might maybe reflect it's true nature if the name is going to be as literal as "gunboat". Another poster said, "the viking is not an axe weilding warrior", but there is a difference between a name like viking/ corsair, (which is more like an image name) and something more literal like boat or tank. u wouldn't call the firebat a helicoptor right? too literal.
Converting/upgrading is a very zerg mechanic since when? Because the only race to have had any evolving is zerg? Yeah, but patching on some armorplates and adding a couple of gun-ports is, lorewise, about as terran as you can get.
since always. no other unit in SC actually turned into another unit. even archons were a combined unit. even the viking's transformation is reversible, and more like a function than a unit changing into another. THAT is a great terran mechanic, my friend. with the gunboat, we're talking along more parallel lines of overlord->overseer, with dropship->gunboat.
In fact, there's precedence for this in the current SC2 build - battlecruisers currently have the choice between upgrading yamato or the air-to-ground plasma thingy, on an individual basis.
touche~!, that is individual upgrades to the same unit. And i'm actually in support of the individual upgrade mechanic as being a terran staple. theres a great thread about it for the thor on the bnet forums. and on sc2 armory (neosteel plating - passive) , (flak cannons - antiAir) (something - for ground heavy assault). perhaps they could bring it down to other units too, instead of just the biggest beefy ones.
I'm strongly opposed to the unit being built on its own as this would 1) remove an interesting terran mechanic 2) take up another slot in the starport. 3) We would have 2 different dropships -_- can't happen. -i still think changing a unit is really a zerg mechanic.
-another slot on the starport would be bad, if there are too many. but then again, the protoss already has tons of air units.
-indeed, two very similar units would be very badFinally I don't see a 250 hp flying air unit competing with a X hundred HP ground unit
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On May 02 2008 05:44 Plutonium wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2008 05:35 minus_human wrote:This idea is actually very good and interesting, imho. The problem is that Blizzard, although following suggestion, will refuse to adopt a concept entirely created outside of their dev team Yet this still is very promising The idea for the Supply Depots retracting into the ground was admittedly swiped verbatim from a poster on TL.
i don't think blizzard is opposed to incorporating premade ideas. it would be more of an issue of being able to work it in along with everything else. and maybe also them seeing this thread, post it up on bnet
The name is my fault, he called it Gunship, I suggested gunboat cause I like that more -.- But I'm obviously alone.
actually the title is gunboat, yo
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Sweden33719 Posts
No I talked to him in PM before he started this thread, he made the post originally in the thread for Ideas etc, technically you aren't allowed to make posts about new unit ideas outside that thread, but this was so good so I told him to make one.
I mentioned I liked the name gunboat more, so he must have gone with it (very nice of him ).
since always. no other unit in SC actually turned into another unit. even archons were a combined unit. even the viking's transformation is reversible, and more like a function than a unit changing into another. THAT is a great terran mechanic, my friend. with the gunboat, we're talking along more parallel lines of overlord->overseer, with dropship->gunboat.
The thing is that's all a gunboat/ship is supposed to be - the ship lands, upgrades a couple of things, then lifts off again looking mostly the same just with some added armor-plating and guns pointing out the sides of the ship.
It's not morphing into something completely different at all =p
i don't understand what u mean.
The Thor is groundbased, I'm not sure how high its HP are but probably pretty high.
The Gunship/Gunboat wouldn't have nearly as high HP, would be a flier etc - the two would fill completely different niches.
Also, about the unit name, how isn't Gunship or Gunboat close enough of a match to what the unit actually is? It's not like we are calling it The oiled lightning and giving it the speed of a reaver
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since always. no other unit in SC actually turned into another unit. even archons were a combined unit. even the viking's transformation is reversible, and more like a function than a unit changing into another. THAT is a great terran mechanic, my friend. with the gunboat, we're talking along more parallel lines of overlord->overseer, with dropship->gunboat.
if you looked at the updated part of the idea, it's giving it a second ability-namely, the ability to slow down but let the units shoot outside/heal, at the cost of some minerals/gas and 4 passenger room/vehicles. This will render drone harassment less available without ground support of some sort as slow air units are very vulnerable to... well, everything that can shoot air. Think of it as an air version of siege build.
In that sense, it isn't really turning into a completely different unit. It just gains some visual addons and a few bonuses.
Whereas, with zerg, you have the following:
Mutalisk --> Guardian, completely different unit
Mutalisk --> Devourer, completely different unit
Hydralisk --> Lurker, completely different unit
Zergling --> Baneling, completely different unit
In this case, it's Dropship--> Gunboat. They both look more or less the same, and they both carry troops. They have similar roles, except one is a bit more aggressive and the other is more pacifist. On the other hand, none of the zerg mutations have even remotely similar roles.
and i decided that the "gunship" is a bit overused in terminology these days. If Dropship --> Medivac, then Dropship --> Gunboat, no?
although i don't care either way ^_^
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Why not just pay upfront for Gunboat instead of the upgrade bit? Upgrade/morphing is so zerg. Why would Terran have to morph their units at all?
If exceptions are made then what's to stop other race characteristics from carrying over with Nth Starcraft games/patch/expansion? Look what happened with WC3 TFT, everybody gets the same units except it's a little bit different. I prefer Blizzard keep each race uniqueness intact. There was ways to implement new ideas without having to cross the race boundaries.
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You upgrade a CC into a Planetary Fortress by taking some time, plating more armor, and sticking a turret on it. You upgrade a Dropship into a Gunboat by taking some time, plating more armor, and sticking a turret on it.
What's the problem?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 02 2008 08:50 [X]Ken_D wrote:
Why not just pay upfront for Gunboat instead of the upgrade bit? Upgrade/morphing is so zerg. Why would Terran have to morph their units at all?
If exceptions are made then what's to stop other race characteristics from carrying over with Nth Starcraft games/patch/expansion? Look what happened with WC3 TFT, everybody gets the same units except it's a little bit different. I prefer Blizzard keep each race uniqueness intact. There was ways to implement new ideas without having to cross the race boundaries.
The idea makes perfect sense lorewise, it's really nothing like zerg.
If the dropship had mutated into a gigantic toaster I would see your point but it's an upgrade - something no zerg unit has btw, they all mutate into something completely different - where the dropship lands, tacks on some armor and gunports, and lifts off again looking 90% the same.
Having the gunship be its own unit, built in the starport, means terran will have 2 dropships, which is obviously completely ridiculous -_-
And as the guy above me pointed out, the planetary fortress upgrade to the command center isn't much different.
If you don't like the idea it's fine but this insistence on it being 'zergy' drives me crazy -.-
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hey, maybe someone already suggested this, or there is some reason not to, why use a dropship to turn into a gunboat? Ok, what would it actually do? Its an ultralisk in the air, right? Terran already have the Viking, reaper, and banshee to do worker hits, so it doesn't need to be fast. So heres the idea, why can't bunkers be upgraded to fly, just like most of the production and tech buildings? They could be the same speed as the other flying buildings, so useless for hit and run, but would still be great tank support, or just all out Ultra style attacks. They would be upgraded or whatever mid/late game, so Protoss would have the long range warp ray to take them out before they got near, and the Zerg corrupter could just infest, so its got an easy counter already.
Ok, so obviously, you can't just have it fly at only 100 min, so somethings gotta give.
1- make bunkers expensive, get them mid/late game something like, give them 50 extra hp, tack on 125 gas or something
2- Make them individually upgrade, like the gunboat, zerg style, maybe call it an addon, probably 100 min, 100 gas
3- Give a super expensive mid game upgrade, like 300 min, 300 gas, and have them be able to lift off then
Anyway, the reason I like this idea is that it makes bunkers useful in the late game. Nobody builds them in SC, because they just get in the way once you start Tank pumping, or whatever, but if they could be useful as a scout-in-force, perfect mutalisk counter for a tank push, or just a frontal attack, sopeople might build them again. Also, I just don't like the idea of making my dropships only be able to carry 4 infantry units. I know, you should think ahead or whatever, but it could get really annoying, needing 2 tanks on a ledge, and oops, I just converted my last dropship into a gunboat, dang. Anyway flying bunkers just sounds like Terran to me, with the whole, "we will adapt to any situation" motto.
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On May 05 2008 00:58 WoodenSpider wrote:
hey, maybe someone already suggested this, or there is some reason not to, why use a dropship to turn into a gunboat? Ok, what would it actually do? Its an ultralisk in the air, right? Terran already have the Viking, reaper, and banshee to do worker hits, so it doesn't need to be fast. So heres the idea, why can't bunkers be upgraded to fly, just like most of the production and tech buildings? They could be the same speed as the other flying buildings, so useless for hit and run, but would still be great tank support, or just all out Ultra style attacks. They would be upgraded or whatever mid/late game, so Protoss would have the long range warp ray to take them out before they got near, and the Zerg corrupter could just infest, so its got an easy counter already.
Ok, so obviously, you can't just have it fly at only 100 min, so somethings gotta give.
1- make bunkers expensive, get them mid/late game something like, give them 50 extra hp, tack on 125 gas or something
2- Make them individually upgrade, like the gunboat, zerg style, maybe call it an addon, probably 100 min, 100 gas
3- Give a super expensive mid game upgrade, like 300 min, 300 gas, and have them be able to lift off then
Anyway, the reason I like this idea is that it makes bunkers useful in the late game. Nobody builds them in SC, because they just get in the way once you start Tank pumping, or whatever, but if they could be useful as a scout-in-force, perfect mutalisk counter for a tank push, or just a frontal attack, sopeople might build them again. Also, I just don't like the idea of making my dropships only be able to carry 4 infantry units. I know, you should think ahead or whatever, but it could get really annoying, needing 2 tanks on a ledge, and oops, I just converted my last dropship into a gunboat, dang. Anyway flying bunkers just sounds like Terran to me, with the whole, "we will adapt to any situation" motto.
the problem with making bunkers fly is that they can just be spammed by scvs, and its a lot more unrealisttic to be adding engines on to something that cant be flying.
Besides it's not like all of your dropships are turning into bunkers. Bunkers are still very useful and the fact that there are no medics make them even more important.
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i like it 
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Good point, i forgot about the scv spamming.. I guess it's b/c they are so big. But why can't you do that to battlecruisers? it's the same idea. these would have a little more firepower, but would be slower, and have no armor. I guess in that case it would overlap the battlecruiser a lot, but still, it could add an interesting point. Maybe go with that, make scvs be able to commanded to auto repair from inside, or something. It could kinda be like the roach. And if you did scv spam, that significantly increase the cost of using the flying bunkers. The reason it's easy to do when defending your base is that they are all lying around anyway, but if you have, say 8 scvs brought along to repair the bunkers, that's another 400 min. But that is a good point, if they did do a flying bunker upgrade or something, it would have to be more expensive, at least gas-wise, than I said above. But agin, I still think Blizzard should at least think about it.
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10387 Posts
I'm not sure if this was mentioned in the thread (sorry if it was), but would the gunboat be able to focus fire all of its marines, or will it just hit four different targets as it flies by? Will they be able to stim inside the gunboat?
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On May 05 2008 15:08 ArvickHero wrote:
I'm not sure if this was mentioned in the thread (sorry if it was), but would the gunboat be able to focus fire all of its marines, or will it just hit four different targets as it flies by? Will they be able to stim inside the gunboat?
I should think to just leave it basically a flying bunker. Also, logically, there's nothing stopping a marine from using stimpacks while inside a building/ship. Blizzard of course didn't realize this "problem" until long after SC1 was released. So this feature logically should be implemented in SC2 ( Wasn't it in SC2 bunkers already. Can someone confirm this?) though it could have been left for the micro upkeep.
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Other addons can be added guns on the ship even one devastating cannon to it so the price is benefitable. What it has rocket pods or flare so that enemy aircraft or ground missille will miss for a few seconds when the ship is under heavy fire
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Sweden33719 Posts
Having flares (with a limit, like vulture mines) could create some extremely interesting micro situations.. I think the helicopters in World in Conflict have that ability and I thought it was pretty cool.
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Hmm...
What about this then...
The Gunboat, as mentioned before, has two modes: the normal "dropship" mode, where it carries 4 units and travels at dropship speed, but the units cannot shoot, and the "gunboat" mode, where it slows down to the speed of, say, a Battlecruiser, but the units can now shoot/heal while in the Gunboat. Upgrading each dropship (using an SCV to "finish building" the dropship) gives it two flares, which work by acting as if the dropship is actually a ground unit on higher elevation: i.e. there is a reduced chance to hit for a few seconds. This could be used to act as a way to escape because the transition time to gunboat and dropship mode and back is a few seconds.
To address the concern that there will be no need to have infantry outside of the gunboat, my question is: how are you going to get the gunboat to escape without infantry support from fast pursuit units like the Warp ray and the Corrupter? I envision a unit of Gunboats and Dropships working in tandem, with the Gunboats clearing an area for the Dropships to land, the dropships landing their troops and wrecking havoc, then the Dropship infantry patrolling the area defending against corrupters and hydralisks while the Gunboats transition into Dropship mode, and then all the air units making their escape.
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i really like the idea of an upgrade for dropship that allows the units inside to shoot
very nice
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flying nuke launchers : )
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The Gunboat, as mentioned before, has two modes: the normal "dropship" mode, where it carries 4 units and travels at dropship speed, but the units cannot shoot, and the "gunboat" mode, where it slows down to the speed of, say, a Battlecruiser, but the units can now shoot/heal while in the Gunboat.
Perfect.
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how about nuking from gunboat
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So how do you suggest corruptors and gunboats mix? Can a gunboat get corrupted? Do you lose control over the units inside for the time it lasts or not? Does zerg get control over their abilities? Or shouldn't it be able to be corrupted at all? What efficient counter do you suggest for zerg against a flying stimming marauding sniping bunker? Or a mass of them?
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On June 03 2008 02:11 dogen wrote:
So how do you suggest corruptors and gunboats mix? Can a gunboat get corrupted? Do you lose control over the units inside for the time it lasts or not? Does zerg get control over their abilities? Or shouldn't it be able to be corrupted at all? What efficient counter do you suggest for zerg against a flying stimming marauding sniping bunker? Or a mass of them?
if you've let your opponent get a mass of these gunship things either you should have 200/200 ultralisks or you're really far behind.
If a Gunboat gets corrupted by a corrupter, it will stop moving and act as a hovering bunker. The units inside will be able to use, for instance, snipe or lockdown, if they're researched, as well as heal (for applicable units), and they can shoot outside and at their respective ranges. It'd be just like it got mind controlled, except its stationary. When a dropship got mind controlled, all of the units belonged to the mind controlling player, so I don't see why this should be any different.
Because of the short range and the relatively slow speed, a group of hydralisks can easily put a stop to it, as well as the disease of the infester, and dark swarm will render your units hard to kill by a Gunboat. Each Gunboat is a huge investment, it's like an Ultralisk, plus the marines inside make ti equal to an ultralisk and 6 zerglings. Plus, since it does marine damage, armored units will take little damage against it because instead of say 24 damage it does 6+6+6+6 damage, which against 2 armor is only 16 damage.
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It seems interesting. I don't know the exact implications of how this would work. One thing to consider would be its speed. If it moves a lot slower, then it wouldn't be a dropship at all anymore, but more like... a flying bunker that costs gas.
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Well, it wouldn't have to be a bunker.
It could function just as a regular dropship with its normal given capacity, but with, say, 2-4 gunports to allow for Vietnam-style shooting from helicopters while not significantly affecting game balance (ie. no active abilities), and the dropships are still expensive and still must be filled by marines/marauders/whatever. When destroyed, the inhabitants of said dropship would also be killed.
This would allow for some measure of self defence, even if slightly pathetic, while not (omfgwhyisit)pwning the air.
Plus, for those that say this idea would imba for Terran, wouldn't all the places the dropship can attack already be attack-able by the much cheaper Vikings?
And the primary purpose of the dropship is to TRANSPORT and SUPPORT, not PWN.
It's just a thing to make the dropship seem like something you would take to a combat zone, not a cargo plane.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Vand00r.. that's the idea ;p
And it's essentially a flying bunker, although weaker!
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So how is our presentation of this to Blizzard coming along?
Anyone made any form of direct contact on the subject?
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Sweden33719 Posts
It was submitted in last months monthly report, that's about the extent of the contact I have =p
Manifesto might have more connections but I dunno =]
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Good stuff, need to keep picking on them about this one.
As mentioned in the thread, this is exactly the kind of unit Blizzard USUALLY goes all wet and dreamy about.
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Theres a unit like this in CnC3.
I don't like it even if it wasn't already a CnC3 unit.
I don't like it.
With no scourges in the game, imagine a dropship raid only it doesn't have to drop anymore, and on top of that, you try chase it with mutas, mutas cant move and shoot anymore, but the rines inside the Dropship can shoot while the dropship is running away, this is just such a lame idea, this would be even lamer than iradiate on your vessels (at least this caries risks from scourges), but the all mighty dropship of doom has 0 risks!
Great idea! Just awesome! How the hell didn't some one in blizzard think of this?!
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On June 25 2008 21:46 eugen1225 wrote:
Theres a unit like this in CnC3.
I don't like it even if it wasn't already a CnC3 unit.
I don't like it.
With no scourges in the game, imagine a dropship raid only it doesn't have to drop anymore, and on top of that, you try chase it with mutas, mutas cant move and shoot anymore, but the rines inside the Dropship can shoot while the dropship is running away, this is just such a lame idea, this would be even lamer than iradiate on your vessels (at least this caries risks from scourges), but the all mighty dropship of doom has 0 risks!
Great idea! Just awesome! How the hell didn't some one in blizzard think of this?!
a) yugoslavia
b) did you actually read the thread? i said that if the dropship is trying to run away it would either be very slow, or it wouldn't be able to shoot to run away. And the corrupter is a huge risk there, not to mention its much more expensive than a vessel.
and theres a unit like the siege tank in cnc its called artillery
and theres a unit like the marine its called the infantry
and theres a unit like the golaith called the wolverine
and there used to be a unit like the firebat, it was called flamethrower infantry
just b/c its vaguely like something in cnc3 doesn't mean its bad.
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Haha, yeah, C&C's APC and its various incarnations. Thus, the possibility of a non-flying but mobile bunker also sounds like a cool idea. haha.
Scourge will be back. They have to. They saved many Zergs' asses at critical moments so many times. Kerrigan will be considered stupid not to bring them back or is she planning a defection back to the Terrans? Heheh
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Mebbe the corrupters will get a suicide option or something.
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Before I'll dig in I think you should know:
It should be renamed to Gunship not Gunboat
I like it, US Army uses flying planes with guns on the board too! And those are called Gunships...
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This was already brought up a couple of times before. The name was because FA suggested it and OP complied with it. But I just had this reason come to mind right now which is:
That I haven't heard any or much of boats but rather more of ships or vessels used in classification of space vehicle types. So naming it a boat really sounds unsuitable compared to ship. Hmm.. maybe because of 'rowboat' which implies we need to row? in space. So yeah, I support the motion to rename it to gunship.
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I oppose.
It has crap attack.
Actually, screw the firing slits option.
Why don't we have an upgrade for the dropship that turns it into a ground-pounding (only) AC-130 of the future but removes its transport ability?
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how about a dropship that once upgraded, can drop bombs or something instead of infantries.
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Another thing I don't know if was brought up is new standard Ghost's attack.
He has now 5 damage +30 bonus versus light units!! and this would be devastating against workers / HT's / etc...?
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On June 28 2008 04:00 MrRammstein wrote:
Before I'll dig in I think you should know:
It should be renamed to Gunship not Gunboat
I like it, US Army uses flying planes with guns on the board too! And those are called Gunships...
Isn't a Battlecruiser supposed to be a giant ship?
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gunboats saw use in the vietnam war patrolling the rivers. They're basically patrol boats that have guns on them
the a-10 warthog and the apache helicopter are referred to as "gunships"
yeah its fine to refer to any space faring vessels as ships, and vessels themselves connote ships
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I always thought that the name Phantom would be used for Terran because of all their other apparition names: Ghost, Banshee, Wraith...
Anyways, what about we add a new unit, lets call it the Engineer. The Engineer can enter vehicles or buildings and make them more efficient, or in the case of the Dropship, it enters it and changes it into the Gunboat (Gunship? Gunplane? Gundam?)...or a Medivac or something...
Okay, I felt like I had a good idea but now I have no idea where I'm going with this...
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The engineer should also be able to make a turret. They could make his role more useful by allocating him some mana to repair it. This mana could be replenished by another structure he could build. The "repair" skill could be auto-castable and he could then spend the rest of the game sitting behind his wretched sentry-gun, I mean turret, repairing it, and do nothing else of any use whatsoever.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/82/OriginalCarkoonSkirmishSarlaac.jpg)
