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On January 05 2008 21:54 LaLuSh wrote:
I believe Starcraft has a far wider skill cap than we can imagine. And that MBS/auto-mining will help the game surpass anything that SBS could have achieved.
please tell me why you think removing something will make it more?
because apparently this is your logic:
making SC2 easier (youre gonna argue that MBS and automine makes game harder?)
is
some how will increase overall skill level. (because apparently SC progaming reached its limits and the top players arent getting better at all?)
Making the game easier in ANY aspect will make lower the skill ceiling (because theres less stuff to do?). I can just as well argue that since the first couple seconds of SC is all just mining stuff and you should devote APM to other things, lets give players more starting resources so they could decide what building to build right away (like in WC3) so that the APM could be put to good use. You could even give more units earlier in the game (no one does anything the first 2 mins but mining and building supplies anyway) so give them units so now they can scout better + have some earlier battles and make the game more exciting.
the only limitation I could see right now thats preventing the game to be taken to another level is the players, no matter how good or perfect you are at anything, you're not perfect at everything, so theres still room for improvement. If you suddenly make one aspect easier so now everyone has perfect macro (or they wont, but is MBS and automine gonna make the game harder?) but macro would be EASIER, so therefore the skillgap for macroing is lessen, therefore the overall skill level is lessen. The game is still evolving and the players are STILL getting better so thats a good thing. Lowering it would make reaching it that much sooner and if the players arent getting better, the games would not be exciting (or they could be, idk, but then theres no point in e-sport anymore since so many people perfected the game and all the top pros are equally as good as the other its just luck now)
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LaLuSh yes you're right, I flamed unnecessarily. Sorry for calling you stupid and dumb.
The comparison I'm making with LT and Luna is that large army battles happen a lot less often on that map than on Luna because of its smaller middle ground and closer distance between bases. Therefore more 1 base, timing based strategies are used such as 1 base tank drop, 2 gate zealot rush, etc. When you look at some of the current maps, such as Katrina, Blue Storm, Monghwan, Persona, Zodiac, even Monty Hall, they either have a lot more resources than maps of the past and/or have large areas where players clash, which I think by far is the reason you see players having more expansions and units.
As to multi-tasking having to do with the increase in expansions, I don't think they correlate directly. Maybe an increase in mult-tasking leads to new build orders such as FE which allow players to have more units mid game therefore games getting to late game more often and players taking expansions. In starcraft the amount of expansions you take is directly related to your army size, economy, and map control, not to multi-tasking. If you have 3 expansions as terran to your protoss opponent's 3, you can not take a 4th without having an advantage or else it'd be stealing and is not apart of normal gameplay. A player can only take expansions aggressively when he has the advantage to do so, so saying that an increase in expansion aggression is related to an increase in multi-tasking ability is a bad conclusion in this sense.
"However, to completely discard something without knowing whether it has the potential to actually work is also pretty narrow-minded. Wouldn't you agree on that?"
This is all theory, but, say if MBS does increase the ceiling in gameplay, wouldn't then the time and work a player needs to master the game be the same as Brood War? Since in Starcraft II your starting point would be higher? Assuming this is correct, then the only purpose MBS has would be to make the seemingly easier because of the decrease in multi-tasking, but if SCII is as deep as SC, and assuming say, the strategical depth of the game aside from multi-tasking increases, the game will be just as hard to master, so in the end nothing would be accomplished except to make starcraft a game that requires less multi-tasking. Which is exactly what I don't want since the high requirement in multi-tasking is for many, the main appeal of starcraft.
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I guess you can make an argument for MBS saying that it would reward strategical thinking more than multi-tasking, so maybe Koreans won't dominate as much since improvement in multi-tasking comes only from mass gaming and relies much less on talent than strategy. But that would be a very weak assumption since the manner in which strategy and multi-tasking improve has no obvious evidence for people to draw conclusions from. Some people maybe more talented at outthinking their opponent and developing strategies, some people maybe more talented in hand-eye coordination. Foreign amateurs tend to be more strategical minded and creative than Korean amateurs but when it gets to the professional level, people who play the game 10x more than anyone else are better at every aspect, and which it should be for all good strategy games.
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So yea basically I believe every argument for MBS is faulted at its core
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On January 05 2008 23:51 XCetron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 21:54 LaLuSh wrote:
I believe Starcraft has a far wider skill cap than we can imagine. And that MBS/auto-mining will help the game surpass anything that SBS could have achieved.
please tell me why you think removing something will make it more? because apparently this is your logic: making SC2 easier (youre gonna argue that MBS and automine makes game harder?) is some how will increase overall skill level. (because apparently SC progaming reached its limits and the top players arent getting better at all?) Making the game easier in ANY aspect will make lower the skill ceiling (because theres less stuff to do?). I can just as well argue that since the first couple seconds of SC is all just mining stuff and you should devote APM to other things, lets give players more starting resources so they could decide what building to build right away (like in WC3) so that the APM could be put to good use. You could even give more units earlier in the game (no one does anything the first 2 mins but mining and building supplies anyway) so give them units so now they can scout better + have some earlier battles and make the game more exciting. the only limitation I could see right now thats preventing the game to be taken to another level is the players, no matter how good or perfect you are at anything, you're not perfect at everything, so theres still room for improvement. If you suddenly make one aspect easier so now everyone has perfect macro (or they wont, but is MBS and automine gonna make the game harder?) but macro would be EASIER, so therefore the skillgap for macroing is lessen, therefore the overall skill level is lessen. The game is still evolving and the players are STILL getting better so thats a good thing. Lowering it would make reaching it that much sooner and if the players arent getting better, the games would not be exciting (or they could be, idk, but then theres no point in e-sport anymore since so many people perfected the game and all the top pros are equally as good as the other its just luck now)
I believe this is the more likely scenario if MBS was put into place. The potential of the game would be lower instead of the same or higher. We don't know the potential of SCII, we don't know how good of a game it's gonna be, but people want to make the starting requirement lower so the natural conclusion would be that the depth of the game would be more shallow.
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Welcome in pre-moderated age?
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Like I said, post a fucking replay of your play LaLush and then we will see how much you understand any of the garbage you spout.
I saw that you covered your ass by saying that you just picked the game up again last year, but would you really be so arrogant to criticize a someone ranked much above you in chess with your incomplete understanding of the game?
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How about we remove rally point? That'll really spice things up
How about we disable right click as attack or move? We have to press M and A for those actions.
How about dropship only unload 1 at a time and you have to click it multiple times to unload?
That'll make the pro so pro, that nobody with under 400 apm will get utterly raped, and the skill gap would be so great and fantastic, you have to juggle fucking 20 balls to make things happen?
Would you like that?
If no, then stop bitching about MBS and Automining, it's fucking mundane work that robot could've done better. How do you think starcraft celebrate a good human player? It is celebrated by his choice of strategy, where to attack, how to attack, unit compositions, and when to expand and such.
if yes, then go back and play warcraft 2, and continue to shred your tuneless guitar.
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Oh yeah FYI micro macro isn't that essential on the pro level.
A quote form Draco on what he learned on the pro team:
GosuGamers: Did your gameplay develop the way you liked to? What do you see now, that you didn't see before?
- Yes, my game really developed a lot. There are too many things just to name some aspects of the game which I didn't see before and see now. Generally it's not so much about macro and micro but about experience. Knowledge about builds, timings, decisions during a game and on which situations I should spend more time during a game and on which less.
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easiest way to make game harder = increase game speed
no need to keep out MBS, automine, and smartcast
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On January 06 2008 10:07 evanthebouncy! wrote:
if yes, then go back and play warcraft 2, and continue to shred your tuneless guitar.
WC2 was a great game.
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On January 06 2008 10:42 azndsh wrote:
easiest way to make game harder = increase game speed
no need to keep out MBS, automine, and smartcast
So stuff like - reduce expansion/building costs. Reduce building build times. Reduce unit build times. Maybe even reduce maximum capacity per base (to promote expanding).
This would most likely lead to more battles across multiple locations, provided there were reasonable and cost effective ways to attack across the map with each race. This could also mean a lot of changes in our assumptions about race balance. I'm not sure who would benefit the most from a game where having multiple expansions quickly is critical.
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You realize that's a really lame way to make a game more challenging? Lol, watch some Angry Nintendo Gaming Nerd, or whatever he's called.
Now, Blizzard doesn't know SC as well as some here. They do know how to make a game. They know a game should be easy to learn, hard to master.
If you increase the game speed to make the game more difficult then you are just making the basics of the game more difficult. The game will be hard to learn, easy to master. Starcraft is a very easy game to be able to play the basics. The thing is that you can be extremely skilled and just perform a lot better.
That's how SC2 should be. A casual 30 APM newb should be able to play without realizing he completely sucks. We had no idea about what was possible or how Starcraft would be played a month after it's release. No one wanted to have MBS or automine. Hell, we even played at default speed.
We usually only expanded once. We didn't micro. We just used the units we though was the coolest, etc.
You shouldn't make a game so a beginner can't play it because it's too fast. You should make a game that a beginner can play without any problem or concern. And then you allow the skilled player to get a lot more out of the game. And in multiplayer skill should be rewarded disproportionately compared to other RTS games(except for Starcraft of course).
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On January 06 2008 10:07 evanthebouncy! wrote:
How about we remove rally point? That'll really spice things up
How about we disable right click as attack or move? We have to press M and A for those actions.
How about dropship only unload 1 at a time and you have to click it multiple times to unload?
That'll make the pro so pro, that nobody with under 400 apm will get utterly raped, and the skill gap would be so great and fantastic, you have to juggle fucking 20 balls to make things happen?
Would you like that?
If no, then stop bitching about MBS and Automining, it's fucking mundane work that robot could've done better. How do you think starcraft celebrate a good human player? It is celebrated by his choice of strategy, where to attack, how to attack, unit compositions, and when to expand and such.
if yes, then go back and play warcraft 2, and continue to shred your tuneless guitar.
By being against MBS, we are not suggesting that SC2 should be mechanically more difficult to play than SC. The thing I like about SC is the balance between having enough "mundane work" that you're under pressure in every game but not so much that you get completely raped if you're not 4 billion apm. I feel this balance would be screwed up if something like automining was put into SC2.
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On January 06 2008 11:14 BlackStar wrote:
You realize that's a really lame way to make a game more challenging? Lol, watch some Angry Nintendo Gaming Nerd, or whatever he's called.
Now, Blizzard doesn't know SC as well as some here. They do know how to make a game. They know a game should be easy to learn, hard to master.
If you increase the game speed to make the game more difficult then you are just making the basics of the game more difficult. The game will be hard to learn, easy to master. Starcraft is a very easy game to be able to play the basics. The thing is that you can be extremely skilled and just perform a lot better.
That's how SC2 should be. A casual 30 APM newb should be able to play without realizing he completely sucks. We had no idea about what was possible or how Starcraft would be played a month after it's release. No one wanted to have MBS or automine. Hell, we even played at default speed.
We usually only expanded once. We didn't micro. We just used the units we though was the coolest, etc.
You shouldn't make a game so a beginner can't play it because it's too fast. You should make a game that a beginner can play without any problem or concern. And then you allow the skilled player to get a lot more out of the game. And in multiplayer skill should be rewarded disproportionately compared to other RTS games(except for Starcraft of course).
Surely a beginner could simply play it at a slower speed?
Going back to the main issue, I really don't see a problem with auto-mining (I have many reasons, but that'll be a long post for another day). However, even if it did turn out to be a problem, surely there is an incredibly simple solution:
Create maps where expansions contain both blue minerals and yellow minerals.
That way, when you create a worker, if you want to get the maximum usage/efficiency out of it (which pro's will obviously want), you need to actually directly order it to mine a yellow deposit. Hey presto! All the 'problems' caused by automining disappear! Of course, I am assuming that automine won't have a preference for yellow deposits, but I haven't heard anything that claims it does.
Incidentally, this has an interesting effect on the game. When your workers reach 'saturation' (i.e. you've got a lot more workers than mineral deposits) you will no longer need to order newly built workers to the yellow deposits, since workers just shuffle around the deposits at that point. But this will mean that you will need to remember which expansions have reached saturation and which havent, which adds another thing to think about during a game. If you combine that with bigger maps with more expansion opportunities, this should keep the macro you need to do up to the level of SC1.
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bottom line is automining makes the game EASIER, meaning complete newbs will play better and will make it a LESS competitive game
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On January 06 2008 10:07 evanthebouncy! wrote:
How about we remove rally point? That'll really spice things up
How about we disable right click as attack or move? We have to press M and A for those actions.
How about dropship only unload 1 at a time and you have to click it multiple times to unload?
That'll make the pro so pro, that nobody with under 400 apm will get utterly raped, and the skill gap would be so great and fantastic, you have to juggle fucking 20 balls to make things happen?
Would you like that?
If no, then stop bitching about MBS and Automining, it's fucking mundane work that robot could've done better. How do you think starcraft celebrate a good human player? It is celebrated by his choice of strategy, where to attack, how to attack, unit compositions, and when to expand and such.
if yes, then go back and play warcraft 2, and continue to shred your tuneless guitar.
We're not saying to make the game more mechanical, we're saying to keep the main structure of the game as it is, which is SBS. And it's not mundane work, it's multi-tasking which is what makes starcraft different from the other rts which require way less multi-tasking.
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On January 06 2008 12:59 Mammoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2008 11:14 BlackStar wrote:
You realize that's a really lame way to make a game more challenging? Lol, watch some Angry Nintendo Gaming Nerd, or whatever he's called.
Now, Blizzard doesn't know SC as well as some here. They do know how to make a game. They know a game should be easy to learn, hard to master.
If you increase the game speed to make the game more difficult then you are just making the basics of the game more difficult. The game will be hard to learn, easy to master. Starcraft is a very easy game to be able to play the basics. The thing is that you can be extremely skilled and just perform a lot better.
That's how SC2 should be. A casual 30 APM newb should be able to play without realizing he completely sucks. We had no idea about what was possible or how Starcraft would be played a month after it's release. No one wanted to have MBS or automine. Hell, we even played at default speed.
We usually only expanded once. We didn't micro. We just used the units we though was the coolest, etc.
You shouldn't make a game so a beginner can't play it because it's too fast. You should make a game that a beginner can play without any problem or concern. And then you allow the skilled player to get a lot more out of the game. And in multiplayer skill should be rewarded disproportionately compared to other RTS games(except for Starcraft of course).
Surely a beginner could simply play it at a slower speed? Going back to the main issue, I really don't see a problem with auto-mining (I have many reasons, but that'll be a long post for another day). However, even if it did turn out to be a problem, surely there is an incredibly simple solution: Create maps where expansions contain both blue minerals and yellow minerals. That way, when you create a worker, if you want to get the maximum usage/efficiency out of it (which pro's will obviously want), you need to actually directly order it to mine a yellow deposit. Hey presto! All the 'problems' caused by automining disappear! Of course, I am assuming that automine won't have a preference for yellow deposits, but I haven't heard anything that claims it does. Incidentally, this has an interesting effect on the game. When your workers reach 'saturation' (i.e. you've got a lot more workers than mineral deposits) you will no longer need to order newly built workers to the yellow deposits, since workers just shuffle around the deposits at that point. But this will mean that you will need to remember which expansions have reached saturation and which havent, which adds another thing to think about during a game. If you combine that with bigger maps with more expansion opportunities, this should keep the macro you need to do up to the level of SC1.
i don't understand this
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On January 06 2008 12:25 skyglow1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2008 10:07 evanthebouncy! wrote:
How about we remove rally point? That'll really spice things up
How about we disable right click as attack or move? We have to press M and A for those actions.
How about dropship only unload 1 at a time and you have to click it multiple times to unload?
That'll make the pro so pro, that nobody with under 400 apm will get utterly raped, and the skill gap would be so great and fantastic, you have to juggle fucking 20 balls to make things happen?
Would you like that?
If no, then stop bitching about MBS and Automining, it's fucking mundane work that robot could've done better. How do you think starcraft celebrate a good human player? It is celebrated by his choice of strategy, where to attack, how to attack, unit compositions, and when to expand and such.
if yes, then go back and play warcraft 2, and continue to shred your tuneless guitar. By being against MBS, we are not suggesting that SC2 should be mechanically more difficult to play than SC. The thing I like about SC is the balance between having enough "mundane work" that you're under pressure in every game but not so much that you get completely raped if you're not 4 billion apm. I feel this balance would be screwed up if something like automining was put into SC2.
Okay I think single building selection classify as mundane work, if your definition of mundane work is different from mine, then I guess we'll leave things as it is.
I don't like alot of the sc mechanics. I would love to select multiple sunkens, for instance, to have a group of sunken hotkeyed so I can snipe marines when they go for a sunk break, and such feature cannot be w/ out MBS.
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EPT
