wtf?! That's what sequels ARE. Same mechanics, updated areas and graphics, one or two extra things to build on whats already there, ie GTA series, Tomb Raider series, Soul Calibur series.
The only series that doesn't do that is Final Fantasy, but I'm pretty sure everyone would be pleased if blizzard released SC1 with excellent graphics, a bunch of cool new units, some fancy new abilities and some new map mechanics etc, and a few other bells and whistles. In fact, that's probably one of the only ways Blizzard could do it without going wrong.
I think they SHOULDN'T be different games as in 'that game and that game'. It should be 'that game and its sequel'
i dont like the auto-mining concept at all, what makes starcraft so good is that it requires godly multitasking abilities to be gosu. This removes some of it :<
I was merely pointing out Saline that the idea of new time sinks is nice (especially time sinks that are more than mindless tasks (Somebody against Automining might say here something like "Mindless omg wtf", but lets face it, telling a worker time mine isn't exactly brainy (not to say though that it isn't a crucial part of Starcraft's feel))), but nobody has yet come up with an idea that isn't ludicrous.
How can Starcraft-style RTS gameplay be improved? Sure, there are different ways to do RTS players. But they are all clearly inferior to the way Starcraft does things. And not because we want Starcraft 1.5 or because we are conservatives opposing change.
On the contrary. I can only talk for myself. But changing the game for the sake of change is stupid. Starcraft 2 has big shoes to fill. Not making the game worse on purpose is part of making a good game.
No guts no glory, you can't be afraid of change if you're going to try revolutionizing the genre again. Blizzard has phailed once, and that was WC3. Perhaps they learned a few things.
On February 07 2008 08:30 BlackStar wrote: How can Starcraft-style RTS gameplay be improved? Sure, there are different ways to do RTS players. But they are all clearly inferior to the way Starcraft does things. And not because we want Starcraft 1.5 or because we are conservatives opposing change.
On the contrary. I can only talk for myself. But changing the game for the sake of change is stupid. Starcraft 2 has big shoes to fill. Not making the game worse on purpose is part of making a good game.
You are being somewhat unimaginative here. Here's a way to improve it: Add UUS so large scale battles are about more than how quickly you can attack-move your four groups of units, and concentrate on battle tactics, flanking, positioning, etc. Even pros struggle to move their armies in late game. So Blizzard addressed this.
I'm not saying Automine is the same thing, but Starcraft for all it's glory doesn't have to be the end all and be all, and it's even a possibility that additions to the game will expand on the frantic pace and quickness that made Starcraft legendary.
Changing the game for the sake of change is stupid, but that's not what's going on here. The changes are aimed to a) bring the UI standards into the twenty-first century, and b) create a more face-paced game. If UI improvements can be made without sacrificing the multi-tasking and insane pace of Starcraft, nor upsetting the micro/macro balance, then I'm all for them.
I do agree though that as they stand, these changes threaten the quickness and multi-tasking, and I haven't seen a suggestion that replaces the Macro timesink
Yes the developments made in the last decade of RTS gaming should be put into the game. However, because with technology, we can pretty much do almost whatever we want, artificial limits have to be placed on games now. Think of a game with Auto-ming and MBS. What do players do? Sit around a micro? Play WCIII. Edit: Basically , add things that are practical, don't compromise to n00bs. Add things like UUS, cool new ablities, w/e, dont change the whole game.
HamerD, in general I would agree with you. I feel Starcraft is a special case because it is so perfect by itself. I wouldn't want them to release another expansion pack (like Broodwar) for Starcraft because it would change what we already have and love.
I'm hoping that Starcraft 2 will be similar, but not so similar as to seem like an upgrade of the original. Obviously, some disagree with this. But I'm hoping for NEW gameplay mechanics and NEW situations that we haven't seen before as a result of DIFFERENT responsibilities. GeneralStan put it nicely that SC has a "frantic pace" that everyone loves--because if you fall behind you're toast. SC is tough because automining is part of that frantic pace, but it's not a requirement of it (i.e. SC2 can have other things to do). This is not a thread to promote the existence of other new ideas that might take its place--it's to discuss whether or not manual mining is essential.
I think that, considering that SC2 will include new features, manually telling your drones to gather resources is something that should be given up in favor of some newer, advanced aspect of gameplay.
Can someone correct my logic or does Blizzard need to remove Automating to make SC2 feel like SC (for Zerg) and have the Zerg be viable, as well as keep the uniqueness of PvZ.
note: I'm a n00b but I am only making what I feel are obvious assumptions
Situation: Zerg can automate but have no dedicated worker slot then automating is mostly wasted on them because they will then need to send forces away or have to go back to rally points and manually assign drones to mine. This will put Zerg at a huge disadvantage to other races, because it will require them to effctivly not automate. Using a hatch for workers then switching to forces but econ raids will mean a hatch will need to be able to switch back and forth, dedicating some hatchs to workers the entire game will still be a disadvantage because the drones will have travle time.
Situation 2: Zerg has a dedicated work slot. This means Zerg plays totally differently (at least ZvZ I am assuming other match ups). The reason pros never tech past mutilisks is because they don't get the excess money needed to tech from having a worker stream while still producing forces (Might be slightly off but its because they cant build workers). Giving them a dedicated worker slot will totally change this so a Zerg can have an equal army and still replace loses in his worker force.
One doesn't work competivily while the others sacrifices the reason the Zerg play like the Zerg for balance. Neither of which should be acceptible.
to swordsmen: for that problem of Zerg having a disadvantage in automining as they do not have a dedicated worker slot, it can be fixed easily if the hatcheries have two rally points, one for drones and one for other units.
mbs + being able to select more than 12 units handles it. Any more is overkill. how is automining even possible when you want scv's in an army to build and repair?
On February 17 2008 12:04 gwho wrote: mbs + being able to select more than 12 units handles it. Any more is overkill. how is automining even possible when you want scv's in an army to build and repair?
automining means that you can set a rally point for your scvs on a mineral patch and they will automatically start mining.
On February 17 2008 12:04 gwho wrote: mbs + being able to select more than 12 units handles it. Any more is overkill.
Yup. Extreme automation is bad.
MBS is just convenient to me. Like you're able to select multiple units at once, even in SC1 (up to 12), you should also be able to select multiple buildings at once. This is just useful and makes sense, as it will even out the macro/micro imbalance of current SC (macro being more important/time consuming).
how is automining even possible when you want scv's in an army to build and repair?
You just pull workers away from mining? Your own commands have higher priority... it's not like the workers have to mine forever. And once they're inactive, they won't return mining automatically.
I had a long, very civilized, very noob-friendly post written out but then I just realized that it was just plain and simply not what I am feeling right now so I deleted the whole thing and this is what I honestly want to say because honesty and being true to yourself is what matters isn't it.
You bunch of fucking noobs.
I don't even want to start quoting the feces that you low post count fuckers are hurling out. All I'm getting the whole wide way in this thread is you going "this is totally unnecessary and a waste of time" or "it is mindless clicking" or "better use that time on micro, flanking, positioning" you are all trying to hide the fact that you are just inferior.
What is starcraft? That is a good question. A question I feel a lot of people here have no idea about and if you don't know then you should be a bit less so-fucking-sure-of-yourself.
Starcraft is decision making, experience, sense, multitasking and speed. SPEED. FUCKING SPEEEEEEED. Every motherfucker knows that to win a running race all you gotta do is go faster than the other motherfuckers. I don't see anyone complaining that just because they suck at running they want the others to run slower, or have the other people wear bricks instead of shoes, or have it in an anti-gravity room.
Starcraft is made up of a combination of different activities. YOUR ABILITY to retain a clear mind while your army is getting baited, you're getting dropped, your money is building up, your minerals are running dry ALL AT THE SAME TIME makes all the difference in the world.
Sure! Have MBS. Sure! Have unlimited selection. Sure! Have automine.
But the goal of SC2 was to become the next big competitive game, and for that to happen we really don't need these things.
"There will be other things to do to take up your time" I'm guessing you might be referring to similar things like stalkers blink effect and that phoenix thing. Well we already have that in sc1 and it is the siege for tanks, mines for vultures, stim for marines, burrow for lurkers etc etc. I don't see much of a fucking problem here.
I played a bit of WC3 and found the automine such a dumb thing. When I expanded all I had to do was keep that building hotkeyed to 9 or 0 and when I heard the LOL SUP from worker completion I just hit 9 and whatever hotkey to build another worker. And another thing was since undead only needs 5 workers it was ridiculously easy for me.
Anyway I hope that if Blizzard is reading this they make the right decision and go in the right direction. If -competitive- is what they are aiming for, don't get all these features. If you still have doubts, watch some FPVods, like the one above me.
On February 07 2008 08:44 Meh wrote: No guts no glory, you can't be afraid of change if you're going to try revolutionizing the genre again. Blizzard has phailed once, and that was WC3. Perhaps they learned a few things.
Tell them they've failed with WC3 and they will be too puzzled to answer. They don't have the feeling they failed. They think it was a great success. This is why they don't realize how they're screwing up SC2.
On February 17 2008 09:32 CalvinStorm wrote: to swordsmen: for that problem of Zerg having a disadvantage in automining as they do not have a dedicated worker slot, it can be fixed easily if the hatcheries have two rally points, one for drones and one for other units.
You didn't finish reading my post I totally addressed that in the 3rd praragraph (the disclamer doesn't count neither does "Situation:")
I am also fairly disappointed I didn't get more resoponces I thought I had a great point
Like I said before, posters in the SC2 forum should be forced to link to an ICCUP account or something.
The fact is that if you can't play this game well, you don't know wtf you are talking about. To be honest, games are kind of like religion as a topic too - just because it's fairly accessible doesn't mean you are suddenly an expert on your own retarded and misinformed views.
On February 18 2008 01:48 naventus wrote: Like I said before, posters in the SC2 forum should be forced to link to an ICCUP account or something.
Lol yeah, for real.
I mean the only people who seem to think MBS is good are the noobs and their opinions shouldn't mean as much as that of a better player, IF Blizzard wants to make a competative game.
EPT
