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Pros:
- Gives players more time to focus on battle and thus being able to control bigger armies which would be good for tv broadcasts and make the game more fun to play.
- Less focus on multitasking and more focus on the managing the important aspects of your base such as choosing which buildings to build, etc.
- Makes game flow better, no attention losses on important battles, etc, to have to go back to base and worry about workers, makes bases "cleaner" will less random workers lying around.
So what do you guys think?
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Little effort put into the op... That's what I think.
The multitask is a HUGE part of starcraft... why would removing it be a Pro? What makes Starcraft so amazing is that it's hard to juggle all these things at once, making it all the more exciting when an awesome move is pulled off. Bisu is a good example of excellent multitask. On the progamer level, there shouldn't be many "random workers lying around"... plus, if you want to focus on big battles with lots of micro, that's Warcraft 3. Automining isn't as huge of a deal as MBS though, MBS will affect Starcraft much more. But this has all been discussed before (and is still being discussed).
I don't believe neither of your threads fit the guidelines, nor provide the proper foundation or basis for discussion.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Mm, I think we do need a Auto-mining thread so I'll leave this open for now and see what happens.
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I can see the bad reviews being written about Starcraft II.
"Cons: WTF where's the auto-mining and multiple building select? This is 2008, not 1998."
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Okay, with the approval of FrozenArbiter I'll just add that I think that automining doesn't have a huge influence on the game, obviously it will be much easier when making expansions, all you need to do is create a worker and you're fine unless you need some defense. Does have an impact but I still think MBS is the bigger factor there. I still have some questions on how it will work for Zerg, they will either need to seperate rally points or something like that, otherwise their units will go to minerals as well - which would suck! But Zerg is still in development so I think that they will find out something. Having seperate rally points drones and then one for units would seem to be a fitting solution, I'd like to see if they can think of something better.
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is awesome32278 Posts
Same problem, you don't need to draw away your attention from your army since its just 1s or 0p or 1sd. Flaking, setting up traps, drops, lurker holds, or whatever replaces those in SC2 is gonna be hard if not impossible someone babysitting their army 99% of their time.
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United States22883 Posts
I think it's a definite no. Along with the MBS thing, look at Kwanro when he does his muta harrass. When he finally remembers to build drones, he still forgets them and leaves them idle.
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Theres no reason for that to impact negatively Starcraft 2, dont use sc standards for sc2, it will be a new game based on the old, and the reason i put that bold on is because all it needs to do is feel like starcraft, it doesnt have to be an exact copy of it on every time mangement and multitasking part of the game.
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is awesome32278 Posts
On January 04 2008 15:39 D10 wrote:
Theres no reason for that to impact negatively Starcraft 2, dont use sc standards for sc2, it will be a new game based on the old, and the reason i put that bold on is because all it needs to do is feel like starcraft, it doesnt have to be an exact copy of it on every time mangement and multitasking part of the game.
It will still be a rts game, and the concepts i named apply to all rts games (micro, macro, harrass, etc).
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I'm against Auto-Mine... MBS perhaps....
It's also been stated somewhere, i don't remember where, that There will be an idle worker notification and hotkey ect identical to the funtion in Wc3. I think that's enough... More Multitasking please.
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Well like MBS it comes down to multitasking.
Starcraft is a game about juggling many things. Your skill in starcraft isnt seen by your ability to just control one group of units. Its about your ability to control multiple bases, units and areas of the map. Your ability to anaylse the situation and quickly respond with the correct action (should I go back to my base and get my probes mining, or should I be here microing my goons?) Your ability to prioritise your actions to maximise your efficiency (Ok ive got 3 drones up at my base not mining, an army that needs re-hotkeying, I've got a lot of minerals building up that I should be spending on lings, etc. What is the most important thing for me to do?)
One argument that we see the pro-noobification people say is that removing redundent tasks will free up desicion making. What they fail to realise is that you reduce the amount of things that need thinking about, you slow the game down by reducing thought and reducing actions.
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Auto-mine is even more of a skill-killer than MBS (and together they're many times worse). Even without MBS, you don't have to go back to your base for more units. If all your production is hotkeyed, you just 0z9z8z7t and the units all make while the screen still shows the battle or whatever you want. You can even have your rally point up there so you never have to move the screen. Mining is different. With MBS and no auto-mine, it's actually harder than the original SC to macro workers (unless you don't use the MBS for ccs/nexuses): you press 0p or 4s and all your bases make another worker, but now you have to use the minimap or F keys to center on your bases, select the old idle worker, and click to mine. Without MBS you still have to double tap each hotkey to center (00p select, gather, etc). The point is, there's no way to macro workers without the screen physically shifting to the mineral patch, and more importantly AWAY from your attacking units. Macroing workers can certainly decide close matches in broodwar - whoever can keep going back and sending his new probe to mine while microing zealot or goon wars will slowly build an advantage in a PvP. Obviously there are still other aspects of macro that require going back to your base, but you make new gateways/factories/pylons less often than you make probes/scvs. If you don't have to go back to your base fairly often the game is basically just a micro tourney where you chose the units. I love micro tourney, but I'd like the choice of when to play melee and when to play an UMS micro tourney. They shouldn't be the same.
If there's an idle-worker key, I could concede to including that. At least you still have to physically move the screen to a mineral patch to make each new worker mine.
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On January 04 2008 16:12 LonelyMargarita wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Auto-mine is even more of a skill-killer than MBS (and together they're many times worse). Even without MBS, you don't have to go back to your base for more units. If all your production is hotkeyed, you just 0z9z8z7t and the units all make while the screen still shows the battle or whatever you want. You can even have your rally point up there so you never have to move the screen. Mining is different. With MBS and no auto-mine, it's actually harder than the original SC to macro workers (unless you don't use the MBS for ccs/nexuses): you press 0p or 4s and all your bases make another worker, but now you have to use the minimap or F keys to center on your bases, select the old idle worker, and click to mine. Without MBS you still have to double tap each hotkey to center (00p select, gather, etc). The point is, there's no way to macro workers without the screen physically shifting to the mineral patch, and more importantly AWAY from your attacking units. Macroing workers can certainly decide close matches in broodwar - whoever can keep going back and sending his new probe to mine while microing zealot or goon wars will slowly build an advantage in a PvP. Obviously there are still other aspects of macro that require going back to your base, but you make new gateways/factories/pylons less often than you make probes/scvs. If you don't have to go back to your base fairly often the game is basically just a micro tourney where you chose the units. I love micro tourney, but I'd like the choice of when to play melee and when to play an UMS micro tourney. They shouldn't be the same.
If there's an idle-worker key, I could concede to including that. At least you still have to physically move the screen to a mineral patch to make each new worker mine.
Ah, that is a very good point there, and the advantages add up early game especially with a rush or mirror matchup/low economy. I do believe that there is an idle-worker key, but that's only for in the certain circumstance that you build something and forget about that worker, and automine will still be implemented. "Auto-mine is even more of a skill-killer than MBS (and together they're many times worse). " After you explained that I definitely agree with you. Early game MBS isn't as useful as lategame, while auto-mine is useful throughout. I hope they somehow still require much multitasking (not just in form of micromanagement though) to continue the skill gap.
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United States7166 Posts
given that you still have to remember and spend time queuing workers constantly from your bases I think automining is fine and a welcome addition. plus if you say have rally on gas/minerals and want to switch to other you have to focus the screen and do it. there's still enough to do and like he said it would probably help the flow of the game greatly and also help e-sports in general
Also i'd like to point out that the chances of Blizzard not including auto-mining is very slim, slimmer than them not putting in MBS
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On January 04 2008 18:10 Zelniq wrote:
Also i'd like to point out that the chances of Blizzard not including auto-mining is very slim, slimmer than them not putting in MBS Why's that? I would think it's the other way around; I think MBS is essential in order to "upgrade" the UI to compete with other RTS's, but auto-mining is just going over the top. Auto-mining turns everyone into lazy ass-fkucs and is way more of a game-changer than MBS is (well actually both of them together is REALLY BAD).
At least from my experience, going back and remembering to send your workers to mine takes up way more macro-time than just constantly building an army, especially because I am a micro-heavy player, and it's a lot more punishing not keeping up in minerals due to lack of workers than just not spending it. With auto-mine, I'll never have to go back and look at my base worrying about workers, and just constantly press the hotkeys to build workers every once in a while, while I can continue to micro efficiently.
In SC:BW my problem is that even though I'm continuously making workers via hotkeys, I'm too busy microing, or macroing something else (queuing up my army or buildings) and the minerals I'm not gaining every time I forget to send a worker to mine adds up, and it adds up to a HUGE amount I lose over the course of the game, especially when I have many expansions up (late game). With MBS, my performance is only going to improve slightly, but with auto-mining my mineral income is always going to be in top shape as long as I make sure the workers are queued up, meaning I'm a freakin macro god while I'm microing all my units efficiently at the same time, just because I know how to use hotkeys.On January 04 2008 16:12 LonelyMargarita wrote:
Auto-mine is even more of a skill-killer than MBS (and together they're many times worse). Even without MBS, you don't have to go back to your base for more units. If all your production is hotkeyed, you just 0z9z8z7t and the units all make while the screen still shows the battle or whatever you want. You can even have your rally point up there so you never have to move the screen. Mining is different. With MBS and no auto-mine, it's actually harder than the original SC to macro workers (unless you don't use the MBS for ccs/nexuses): you press 0p or 4s and all your bases make another worker, but now you have to use the minimap or F keys to center on your bases, select the old idle worker, and click to mine. Without MBS you still have to double tap each hotkey to center (00p select, gather, etc). The point is, there's no way to macro workers without the screen physically shifting to the mineral patch, and more importantly AWAY from your attacking units. Macroing workers can certainly decide close matches in broodwar - whoever can keep going back and sending his new probe to mine while microing zealot or goon wars will slowly build an advantage in a PvP. Obviously there are still other aspects of macro that require going back to your base, but you make new gateways/factories/pylons less often than you make probes/scvs. If you don't have to go back to your base fairly often the game is basically just a micro tourney where you chose the units. I love micro tourney, but I'd like the choice of when to play melee and when to play an UMS micro tourney. They shouldn't be the same.
If there's an idle-worker key, I could concede to including that. At least you still have to physically move the screen to a mineral patch to make each new worker mine. Agreed with everything said, basically summed up everything else I wanted to say, and a bit more.
edit@below post: and in the same boat MBS is non-negotiable as well. the only point i wanted to make is that if one or the other was going to be taken out, it'd be auto-mining, not MBS.
oh, and i like said, i'm a micro-oriented player; obviously auto-mining favors my style of play, why would i dislike it? 
i'm neither for or against MBS/auto-mining/blah, and will take SCII for what it is. it's just these things lower the competitive skill requirement and may ultimately make the game not able to succeed the original as the most competitive RTS ever; but whatever, it's for blizzard to decide what they want to do.
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As much as you might dislike the idea I can guarantee you that it's in the same folder as smartcasting - it's completely non-negotiable. Blizzard would get so much flak for removing this from a modern RTS game, not to mention it was already in warcraft 3. You can hypothesize all the negative skilll-denegrating effects you like, but it's simply not worth discussing.
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oh shit i forgot blizzard people reads this thread, i'm completely kidding along with the gigantic worker, i was just making fun of noobs who want to decrease the amount of multi-tasking along with MBS, and sorry FA for trolling
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A lot of conservatives here.
I'm definitelly pro auto-mining.
StarCraft II isn't really going to be StarCraft I.
They have to change a lot of stuff... and skill, action usage doesn't have to be determined by drawing workers to mine, or clicking dozens of buildings to build the same unit.
Imagine mass parallel battles with multitasking micro between them, while making a drop and expanding at the same time. Meanwhile choosing the right units to build and deciding what strategy to go next...
Does it require mutitasking and APM ? Yes it does.
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Auto-mine is completely fine with me.
You've still got to macro 9p0p anyway -_-
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On January 04 2008 20:25 Zanno wrote:
As much as you might dislike the idea I can guarantee you that it's in the same folder as smartcasting - it's completely non-negotiable. Blizzard would get so much flak for removing this from a modern RTS game, not to mention it was already in warcraft 3. You can hypothesize all the negative skilll-denegrating effects you like, but it's simply not worth discussing.
Eh, I didn't know about that, who told you? Gosh...
I'm glad to see so many arguing against automining, I hope that makes Blizzard think. Really think, not just wonder.
Automining indeed has a much bigger impact than MBS. The longer a game takes the more expansions/idle workers you have. You also can't have all your expos on shortkeys but in SC2 you can. Compared to SC you'll need I guess about 5-10 times less attention to expo-management because of automining.
Let me explain. I'll use random numbers but I'll try to stay realistic.
Say you got 3 expos. First of all you need to build workers (say 3 each expo) which takes at least 5 seconds, for the average player it takes 6-7 seconds, for a beginner it takes about 10 seconds. 1 set of workers finishes after 20 seconds so 3 workers finish after 60 seconds (60 is very inaccurate because routines are different for everyone, I'm only talking about an ideal case).
Assumption: You must spend 5-10 seconds on producing a few workers from 3 expos.
After 60 seconds the workers are done and you have to send each set of workers to each expo. This would probably take about the same amount of time: 5-10 seconds.
This can be misleading because logically we all combine both steps while playing, so I can't simply sum it up. I can only guess random numbers once more. If the 5-10 seconds are realistic then I'd say with both steps combined you'll need 6-11 seconds for the whole course.
Once more: this is not accurate, it can't be. I just want to show how much time must be added to each minute in an ideal case without automining.
With automining the whole course of action decreases to about zero.
For a progamer that would be 5-6 seconds less every 60 seconds.
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EPT
