EPT[D] Auto-Mining? - Page 3
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
Well then don't say it. Because you did say it. This makes me think you're from THAT country. But you're not. Any chance you were born in Romania? What is "lots and lots of things"? Why don't you make a list? PS: It must be a list that does not contain stuff that already exists in SC. Your following argument is not an answer to my new post, I've already argued against it in a previous post and you couldn't find a new argument. You haven't argued me. You have thrown opinions at me. "PS: It must be a list that does not contain stuff that already exists in SC". That is not a valid argument. That is your opinion. My arguments include "stuff that already exists in SC" because MBS and auto-mining will enhance the perfect execution of those "things". Among my arguments your make believe rule for this debate ignored were: Auto-mining and MBS speeds up the game. What earlier took you 1 hour will only take 45 minutes in Starcraft II (figuratively speaking, I don't want you going romanian on me again). This is one of the aspects that I point will keep the level of multitasking constant in the game. The fact that MBS and auto-mine will help the pace of the game evolve much like the pace of Starcraft I has evolved ever since Garimto and Boxer fought it out with their mostly 1 or 2-base strategies. I won't repeat my other arguments. Since I get the notion your make believe rules for this debate will ignore them again and result in another "YES, But HOW WILL THOSE 100 APM TRANSFER [...]"-response. This is all the case in SC. You can't use that as an argument. I don't want to say that again. This is an opinion. Your not making an argument there. My arguments on the contrary argue that simplifying macro tasks will speed up the game mid and late game. That is MY argument . I haven't seen you make one yet. Where are your arguments? "This is all the case in SC."? What is the case in SC? That simplifying macro tasks will speed up the mid and late game in Starcraft II? Is that the case in SC? I don't see how that can be the case in Starcraft. Please explain. I'm making an argument. You respond with an OPINION. You know what? I can't even argue against that because it's too speculative. If you want me to be able to argue with you you must only take facts or probabilities into consideration. If you first start speculating to make an assumption you can't make a valid point. I never once in that quote said I know anything. I used words and sentences such as "what do we know?" and "might" before every claim. And I used them to illustrate a point: "What do we know about the NEW aspects of macro that might emerge in Starcraft II?". This wasn't an argument and as such I didn't want you to ARGUE it. It was a CLAIM. I claimed something "might" happen. See that's the difference between me and you. When I don't make arguments. I make sure I use phrasings like "might" and "I believe", while you on the other hand, present your "arguments" the following way: Do you know how hard it is to control vessels, tanks and 3 groups of m&m's? That's the easiest scenario in a TvZ late game. Progamers can handle that in random situations all over the map even without the use of shortkeys while planting spider mines everywhere and preparing drops. Talking about "careful" micro and "pretty nuts". This is not an argument. This is a claim and an opinion. "That's the easiest scenario in a TvZ late game". You present this as if it were a fact. Do you for a fact know that every T, or at least the majority, agrees with you on this issue? "Progamers can handle that in random situations [...]". You seem pretty confident of this claim. Another one of your "arguments" huh? How many progamers have you talked to? Can you please name your sources? Shall we compare it to something I wrote? However, in response to one of your arguments; Although I agree with you that progamers today already pay meticulous attention to all those things I listed. There is still the issue of why then the players still are improving? I mean, Garimto was paying meticulous attention to everything 7 years ago too, wasn't he? There is always room for improvement. Nada's 400 APM a couple of years ago weren't as efficient as they are today, are they? This is a claim backed up by arguments. My claim: Starcraft II macro and multitasking will evolve to that beyond of SC. My arguments: Why is Starcraft evolving? Why would almost any 2007 or 2008 player beat a player of 2004 or 2005? More arguments: APM for a lot of pros has remained constant the past couple of years, how come they have got better macro and are better at multitasking today with the same APM? Let's look at how you responded to my arguments and by your account "debunked" them: Now to your argumentation. - Expanding aggressively, attacking at multiple fronts while working raiding and harassing, meticulous attention to production and maynarding: This is already the case in SC. Watch progamers play. The better they are at it the better statistics they have. Sea, Stork and Savior are good examples. - Simplifying macro tasks speed up actual macro (? -> all macro is "actual") mid and late game into a literal race for resources: Already the case in SC. - Example about Boxer and "5 way m&m dropping": Sorry, I don't see the relation. "This is already the case in SC". You already well know I'm arguing that this process will SPEED up in Starcraft 2. Only you are IGNORING it in order to have something to refute. "The better they are at it the better statistics they have." Yeah well hello? Am I perhaps arguing against this? Is anyone in the SC community stupid enough to argue against this? I responded to this by arguing that even Starcraft I evolves. There will always emerge new players who are BETTER, FASTER and more EFFICIENT than the previous generation. And old players will evolve with them. Anyway, that's no the point since this isn't a response to MY arguments. My arguments always were about MBS and automining evolving macro/multitasking in Starcraft II. By making it easier it would evolve into a new level where players pay more attention to timing and expanding aggressively. I'm sure you would have said "This is the case" regarding the game mechanics seven years ago too when Garimto and Boxer were playing like a bunch of noobs by today's standards. In 4-5 years, I bet Savior's and Bisu's abilities too will seem strangely human. But that's not the point. The point is: You don't seem to understand English. Since you aren't responding to my true ARGUMENTS. The next argument: Simplifying macro tasks will speed up the "actual macro". By actual macro I mean the time it takes to dominate the map, to use up resources. Again, I'm using the Garimto analogy. Back then Resources maybe lasted 1½-2 hours if a game would truly come to a dead tie. Today's evolved macro and multitasking means more rapid expanding patterns, more rapid production patterns, and faster mined out maps. This is what I predicted for SC2. That was my argument. Your response, had NOTHING to do with my argument. Your response was a CLAIM, made without any arguments. This is why no one can argue you ForAdun. Because you don't make arguments. You make claims unsupported by arguments and vent opinions as facts. And that last example about Boxer. "Sorry I don't see the relation?". Are you kidding me? You asked me how multitasking would be more demanding, how micro would take up more of your APM. I answered by illustrating a complex multitasking situation that might sometime occur in the dreams of our dreams. That was my answer to your question. It's simple and I'm increasingly getting the notion that you're just playing around with me. It's kind of hard to argue you ForAdun. Since your arguments rather constitute opinions. Or claims unsupported by the least shred of arguments. And as anyone knows: There is no arguing opinions. Answers and arguments I would expect from someone unbiased and non-fundamentalistic about their belief in the greatness of traditional UI are: * Why Auto-mining and MBS won't increase the speed of the game? * Why "--" won't increase the rate and aggressivity at which players expand (something that has been increasing ever since the start of progaming at the rate multitasking and macro has evolved in players of the original Starcraft)? * Why my arguments aren't arguments as opposed to yours? (remember, simply claiming that they aren't valid arguments isn't a real argument. You have to EXPLAIN and support your claim with arguments, like I do). * If I claim that the speed and skill of the game increases, and if it were to be true, why would it then be illogical to assume that multitasking and macro remains constant in SC2 or even that it even *oh I'm feeling blasphemous* increases? Wouldn't that be a logical conclusion to such a claim? If macro is simplified -> players evolve and become faster at performing the same tasks (already occuring process in professional Starcraft) -> A typical game of 1 hour might decrease to 45-50 minutes -> The amount of multitasking would remain constant/increase. Ok. Now I've spelled out my arguments so clearly that even a 2 year old should be able to understand them. If you keep responding to your own imaginary perceptions of my arguments, I won't ever again bother getting into a dispute with you. I don't have very high expectations. Please surprise me. | ||
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Lunaticman
Sweden1097 Posts
good arguments  | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On January 05 2008 03:04 IntoTheWow wrote: lalush, my head hurts after reading you. Why so IntoTheWow? Because of any annoying oddities in my English or is it because of my opinions on Auto-mining and MBS? Let's play DotA and forget all about this... My head hurts too :/ From ForAdun's "arguments". Or the philibustering nature of my posts perhaps? | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
Just becouse, it's RTS ffs, u gotta do it YOURSELF, not by some "stupid" triggers. If you can't do it better than ur opponent, u suck compared to him. Cry me a river, improve, get better @ multitasking, and try again. :D Rallypoints from buildings are IMO ok, units move there, don't attack anything (ur shame if there were mines on path ur goons walked), and stop there. Just stop, waiting for your commands. That's how i like it, RTS! <3 | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On January 05 2008 04:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: That's how i like it, RTS! <3 That doesnt make it out of place in sc2, it only makes you sound biased and all it tells us is that you are gonna hate new features. I see a lot of people who believe that Blizzard cant make a damn sequel! Most of theyr arguments are "WHOA WC3 SUCKZOR HEROS XP MBS LOL!!!! Dont let them do it to sc!!!!" And i agree that sc is a much better spectator esport than wc3, but that doesnt mean that after 10 years of starcraft they cant make sc2 as good because "there core is gone" or because "it was luck", tons of money are into this, pro players, devs, everyone is working on it, you realy believe that all those longtime hardcore sc fans will let theyr game become some micro fights around the map ? Theres so much possibility for time wasting activities that arent SBS and sending worker to mines, its a new game that isnt even Beta yet, have faith, Blizzard delivers. | ||
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XCetron
5226 Posts
On January 05 2008 05:51 D10 wrote: That doesnt make it out of place in sc2, it only makes you sound biased and all it tells us is that you are gonna hate new features. I see a lot of people who believe that Blizzard cant make a damn sequel! Most of theyr arguments are "WHOA WC3 SUCKZOR HEROS XP MBS LOL!!!! Dont let them do it to sc!!!!" And i agree that sc is a much better spectator esport than wc3, but that doesnt mean that after 10 years of starcraft they cant make sc2 as good because "there core is gone" or because "it was luck", tons of money are into this, pro players, devs, everyone is working on it, you realy believe that all those longtime hardcore sc fans will let theyr game become some micro fights around the map ? Theres so much possibility for time wasting activities that arent SBS and sending worker to mines, its a new game that isnt even Beta yet, have faith, Blizzard delivers. yea they delivered the soulhunter, lol? | ||
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scunite
Canada6 Posts
I Was Always Frustrated About My SCV'S running to the minerals when i take my eye of the command center for 1 minute | ||
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
On January 05 2008 02:42 YinYang69 wrote: I think hand speed and multitasking will still play a large role. But instead of using your APM for mindless mechanical things such as building workers and checking on them every 40 seconds you now can focus more on mental things such as building and defense placement, army positioning, proper tank spreading, what have you. People mechanically superior will still have a huge advantage, but their actions won't be spent on robot like mechanics. I love this point. It completely ignores massive amounts of strategical thinking that occured in starcraft and dismisses them as robot mechanics. This is the sign of a bad starcraft player, who does not realise that there is so much more to an aspect of the game than just the clicking that goes along with it. Thinking tasks that Auto-mining will reduce/remove Battlesense: Your ability to read the battlefield and find pockets of time where it is safe to jump back to your base and macro. Or your ability to judge if it is worth the risk to go back. Prioritisation: Ability to be able to recognise all the tasks that need doing and being able to order them in urgency and importance. More tasks requires more prioritisation. Multitasking: The ability for you to coordinate both macro and micro tasks, not forgetting to macro because you were preoccupied with something else. Thinking clear under pressure: Pressure builds up in starcraft when you have heaps to do, and not a whole heap of time to do it. Ever feel flustered when you reach lategame and feel that everything is running really sloppy? Thats your brain choking under the pressure of having soo much to deal with. Now these are just a few examples. The simple fact is that there is a hell of a lot more to macro actions than just robot clicking, if you dissmiss parts of the game as that, then you are missing out on the subtleties of starcraft. | ||
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
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Dariush
Romania330 Posts
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JensOfSweden
Cameroon1767 Posts
Besides you get all anal about semantics regarding what's an "argument" and what's a "claim" | ||
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XCetron
5226 Posts
On January 05 2008 07:45 Dariush wrote: With auto-mining and MBS implemented , SC2 and guitar hero will share the same pro-gamers. this is simply impossible but its a funny thought. | ||
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soulseras
4 Posts
On January 05 2008 03:54 LaLuSh wrote: Answers and arguments I would expect from someone unbiased and non-fundamentalistic about their belief in the greatness of traditional UI are: * Why Auto-mining and MBS won't increase the speed of the game? Over in the MBS thread, tasteless was talking about his experiences with the pre-alpha build that he got to play at Blizzcon. I'll let his words do the talking: i already played sc2 at blizzcon. i was given a private showing of it with testie and some other people who were invited to be there by blizzard. i played for hours the first day and continued to play as the event progressed. if your so ill informed about the progression of SC2 you don't even know people have played it yet i'm surprised you'd even bother to post in this thread. anyways, the game is very VERY similar to SC1. basically SC2 is a face lift from SC. They've improved the graphics and added new units while removing less used ones. The game looks great and it will obviously be very successful. The only element that needs fixing is the interface. You can do many of the same builds you could do in the original SC. For instance i opened up with a 10/12 gate one game, then teched to to my cyber core (it has another name in sc2) and upgraded blink since that has replaced the dragoon range upgrade. I then went 3 gate stalker rush w/ blink. Unfortunately the computer was playing most of the macro game for me with auto mining, MBS and other stuff. * Why "--" won't increase the rate and aggressivity at which players expand (something that has been increasing ever since the start of progaming at the rate multitasking and macro has evolved in players of the original Starcraft)? Back when Boxer and Garimto were noobing it up, expanding was seen as a major risk and was to be avoided unless necessary. The game evolved as a result of people pushing different boundaries. You can accredit many micro tricks used by terran (especially splitting up marines against lurkers) to Boxer playing around with and pushing his micro. I'm not sure who started playing around with expansions and economy to be honest, but it was based off of what he discovered that caused the rate of expansions to increase. Of course, running more expansions requires you to have more concentration on each expansion because as far as sc1 ui limitations dictate, you have to hop back to each nexus/command center/hatchery to produce a peon, come back just before or after it's finished, send it to a mineral patch, and queue up another one. Most people do not hotkey their nexuses/command centers/hatcheries for the sole purpose of being able to build peons out of them. Automining takes one step out of that whole process, sending the miner to the patch. In sc1, not doing that means your economy is not going to quicken, and the game in a sense 'punishes' you for not multitasking quick enough. In fact, this new process almost rewards queuing up multiple peons and just letting the expo sit there for awhile, what with the extra micro and micro based multitasking that you're broadcasting. So I've gone through all of that, but how is it going to prove that it's not going to increase the rate of expansions? From a game play perspective, it's not going to be safe to time the expansions sooner. I may sound like people did back then, but going off of current information, and not speculation is all that I can currently do. In fact, with these changes, it seems that the process of expanding becomes easier, but that doesn't make securing an expansion any easier than it was before. Professionals in sc1 currently time their expansions very well, based on when they'll be safe and most benefit from it. An extreme example would be that you don't see many people 14cc expand in tvt, even though that would certainly be expanding more aggressively and often than the current game situation shows. * Why my arguments aren't arguments as opposed to yours? (remember, simply claiming that they aren't valid arguments isn't a real argument. You have to EXPLAIN and support your claim with arguments, like I do). No comment on this one... I need to pick this next one apart a little... * If I claim that the speed and skill of the game increases Okay... and if it were to be true redundant... why would it then be illogical to assume that multitasking and macro remains constant in SC2 or even that it even *oh I'm feeling blasphemous* increases? It wouldn't be illogical because as you said, the speed and skill of the game increased. The problem is that we are saying that the speed and skill is being reduced by introducing features such as automining and MBS. As I've already said, you're removing actions from what you need to do, which is removing part of the speed required to keep up with the game. I personally view how pros can keep track of all of these things as skill, otherwise we'd all be able to do it. Wouldn't that be a logical conclusion to such a claim? Yes, but as I already outlined, the claim is faulty... If macro is simplified -> players evolve and become faster at performing the same tasks (already occuring process in professional Starcraft) -> A typical game of 1 hour might decrease to 45-50 minutes -> The amount of multitasking would remain constant/increase. I don't see the correlations here. If macro is simplified -> the players obtain tools to become more efficient at performing the same tasks they did in sc1 -> A typical game of 1 hour will see more workers being built and immediately used, meaning bigger armies on both sides... I don't see how workers being sent to patches ends a game sooner. You seem to be implying that the map will be mined out, but that hardly happens in the proleagues currently... -> The amount of multitasking would remain constant in a best case scenario due to having to control multiple fronts, due to tasks back at base taking less time. Ok. Now I've spelled out my arguments so clearly that even a 2 year old should be able to understand them. If you keep responding to your own imaginary perceptions of my arguments, I won't ever again bother getting into a dispute with you. I don't have very high expectations. Please surprise me. I hope this noob fulfills some of your expectations, but I wont be surprised if I get strawmanned to death as well. Or just the ban hammer... | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
No, i don't sound like biased, no, i don't hate new features (becouse they even are not features, they just don't belong in any decent rts). and i never insulted WC3 in any point @ my comment, sry :/ no nice time for u :D but, i rest my case, we'll c when sc2 comes out.. then there's gonna b more flaming around :D | ||
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liosama
Australia843 Posts
ban auto-mining | ||
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MaTaAeRuKaNa
United States95 Posts
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
=( Peace, if anyone wanna play dota on us east pm me time to chill | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
If that's really what's gonna make you lose, you may want to consider playing a different game. | ||
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
On January 05 2008 17:14 5HITCOMBO wrote: As long as zerg have a separate rally point for drones and units, I'm willing to suck it up and have my opponents send peons to patches as well as me. If that's really what's gonna make you lose, you may want to consider playing a different game. Come on. You should know thats not the reason why we are arguing this. We arent arguing this because we think we are going to lose with it in. We argue it because we think its an important part of starcraft that is being made redundant for the sake of noobs not getting frustrated. | ||
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