EPTStarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes - Page 4
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CicadaSC
United States1777 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20306 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1209 Posts
On September 19 2025 09:35 RogueTheGOAT wrote: You do know that Zerg used to have a hatchery tech anti-air unit, right? I like how you try to re-design an entire race with one-liners. While this has nothing to do with the patch, just a quick rundown (piggybacking a bit of Vindicare here): 1)Early Anti-Air: Queens are the only early-antiair Zerg has next to investing heavily into spores - which Zergs already do most of the times anyway against Protoss for example. But more importantly, Queens are also the only current Anti-Air that isn't shit. You can't build Corruptors against two Banshees or to chase away the (much faster) 2-3 Oracles. Even if they do, you now have Corruptors (and a very expensive Spire) you can't really do anything with. And Hydralisk could be T1, but then they would obviously need to be nerfed in some way, meaning Zerg loses another T2 option. Compared to Marines or Stalkers these are all not great options. 2)Early defense In general, Queens are the most important defensive tool Zerg has. With the need to rapidely expand to 3-4 bases, you can't wall your stuff. And while Zerglings are fast, they are also outgunned in the early game, which is obviously a good thing. Hellions would have a field-day, Reapers aswell, Adepts probably too. 3)Creep-spread Creep-spread is essential for Zerg. So how would you spread it? Creep tumors need to be spawned from Hatcheries? That slows the creep-spread down so massively, it's unbelievable. Especially considering how fast e.g. Terran can remove Tumors. 4)Injects You could Auto-Inject for sure, but why would you remove needed APM from Zerg when your goal is to nerf Zerg? And if the Hatcheries can inject themselves...for one it would be cheaper than with Queens, but it also just feels...lame? Like a lamer version of Chrono-Boost? And yeah, Macro-Hatcheries clearly solve the problem...just invest 300 Minerals more into a base you don't really need, that should help, especially in the early game. 5)Heal Probably the one thing you could give another/new unit, but I always thought the fact that in some cases Queen Energy becomes more valuable than Minerals was quite a cool mechanic. You cannot throw all of this out. You also can't just give each aspect to a new unit, because Zerg actually kind of needs all of that in the beginning and paying for five units instead of one is way too expensive in all regards (Minerals, Larva, APM). You probably *can* remove the Queen, but the amount of rebalancing you would have to do is insane. Not just for Zerg, but for alle races. Because either you take a lot of early-pressure off of Zerg (aka. nerf the other two) or you give Zerg something to defend, but that something can't be too good at offensive either... I get the impulse, really. I hate the Medievac with a burning passion, especially the instant-pickup. I think it is lame, a "free-out-of-jail"-card and is way too easy. But I know that just removing the Medievac and giving Terran a Dropship and the Medics back will fix anything. Because these two units together are vastly worse than just a Medievac. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1777 Posts
On September 19 2025 10:59 Cyro wrote: Had to check it's not April 1'st. These changes, especially the larger ones, are awful IMO. Revert all please. In future a paragraph arguing for each change and a poll requiring large majority approval would be appropriate Larger changes are the only thing that will get me to come back to the game in any serious matter. Balanced or not, and for the sake of the argument let's just assume the game is perfectly balanced, it's still stale. If not these I would advocate for some other big sweeping changes. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines296 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16080 Posts
On September 19 2025 11:08 Balnazza wrote: I like how you try to re-design an entire race with one-liners. While this has nothing to do with the patch, just a quick rundown (piggybacking a bit of Vindicare here): 1)Early Anti-Air: Queens are the only early-antiair Zerg has next to investing heavily into spores - which Zergs already do most of the times anyway against Protoss for example. But more importantly, Queens are also the only current Anti-Air that isn't shit. You can't build Corruptors against two Banshees or to chase away the (much faster) 2-3 Oracles. Even if they do, you now have Corruptors (and a very expensive Spire) you can't really do anything with. And Hydralisk could be T1, but then they would obviously need to be nerfed in some way, meaning Zerg loses another T2 option. Compared to Marines or Stalkers these are all not great options. 2)Early defense In general, Queens are the most important defensive tool Zerg has. With the need to rapidely expand to 3-4 bases, you can't wall your stuff. And while Zerglings are fast, they are also outgunned in the early game, which is obviously a good thing. Hellions would have a field-day, Reapers aswell, Adepts probably too. 3)Creep-spread Creep-spread is essential for Zerg. So how would you spread it? Creep tumors need to be spawned from Hatcheries? That slows the creep-spread down so massively, it's unbelievable. Especially considering how fast e.g. Terran can remove Tumors. 4)Injects You could Auto-Inject for sure, but why would you remove needed APM from Zerg when your goal is to nerf Zerg? And if the Hatcheries can inject themselves...for one it would be cheaper than with Queens, but it also just feels...lame? Like a lamer version of Chrono-Boost? And yeah, Macro-Hatcheries clearly solve the problem...just invest 300 Minerals more into a base you don't really need, that should help, especially in the early game. 5)Heal Probably the one thing you could give another/new unit, but I always thought the fact that in some cases Queen Energy becomes more valuable than Minerals was quite a cool mechanic. You cannot throw all of this out. You also can't just give each aspect to a new unit, because Zerg actually kind of needs all of that in the beginning and paying for five units instead of one is way too expensive in all regards (Minerals, Larva, APM). You probably *can* remove the Queen, but the amount of rebalancing you would have to do is insane. Not just for Zerg, but for alle races. Because either you take a lot of early-pressure off of Zerg (aka. nerf the other two) or you give Zerg something to defend, but that something can't be too good at offensive either... I get the impulse, really. I hate the Medievac with a burning passion, especially the instant-pickup. I think it is lame, a "free-out-of-jail"-card and is way too easy. But I know that just removing the Medievac and giving Terran a Dropship and the Medics back will fix anything. Because these two units together are vastly worse than just a Medievac. If I had my way the removal (or at least the scaling back) of the Queen would come hand in hand with a rework to Warp Gate as a late game tool. With both tools removed from the early game arsenal for Protoss and Zerg, you could adjust Terran's early game accordingly. Lock Marauders behind an additional tech structure where Stim would also be researched (Academy anyone?) and adjust tech up speeds in other ways also. There's still my concern that having both Roaches and Hydralisks at Tier 1 would allow Zergs to hit some gnarly ass upgrade timings at Lair tech but those could be adjusted as they emerge. | ||
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Intelligence13
Canada14 Posts
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TeamMamba
100 Posts
On September 19 2025 10:11 WombaT wrote: Yep. I’m not very good at the game, and even I think I could just engage through the new Storm, what the fuck is a Clem going to do? I mean I know we’re in the phase of a bunch of ideas, not all will make it into an actual patch. But this, it just can’t make it in, it’s crazy It’s a dumb idea and it’s even dumber that it actually went through. Feels like the balance council has low IQ. I can somehow “acknowledge” this storm change IF and only if the casting range is similar to the attack range is siege tank or upgraded lurkers. Cause that’s how “zoning” suppose to work | ||
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Agh
United States987 Posts
Approach is just flawed. If you think something needs adjustment then isolate one thing at a time and try to create as much of a vacuum as possible. Fundamentally changing storm and altering energy overcharge at the same time is asinine. We've had 3T/2P/2Z racial split for the top prize money tournaments this year, with RSL S2 and the Memestro tournament wrapping up soon. I'm all for experimental changes but going for ones like these instead of say something like limiting Queens to one per Hatchery and increasing energy and health regeneration, Movespeed, and attack speed doesn't seem fruitful. It's just a process of layering bandaids and patching problems instead of going for the foundation. Then there are things that people just accept as part of the game but have been absurd for the longest time, like Medivac tankiness - and on that note I think the Warp Prism could use 20-30 shields converted into hit points as well. Viking change serves no purpose. It just makes TvT into a greater fiesta than it already is, and is largely unnecessary TvP. The Viper/tank proposition is just absolutely wild, if anything I would have thought it would disable siege mode just for consistency purposes. Aside from the bugfixes and baneling HP everything proposed is dogwater. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25707 Posts
On September 19 2025 13:38 Agh wrote: I really wish there were comments for the justification and reasoning. The one from the original zealot shield change might actually be overtaken. Approach is just flawed. If you think something needs adjustment then isolate one thing at a time and try to create as much of a vacuum as possible. Fundamentally changing storm and altering energy overcharge at the same time is asinine. We've had 3T/2P/2Z racial split for the top prize money tournaments this year, with RSL S2 and the Memestro tournament wrapping up soon. I'm all for experimental changes but going for ones like these instead of say something like limiting Queens to one per Hatchery and increasing energy and health regeneration, Movespeed, and attack speed doesn't seem fruitful. It's just a process of layering bandaids and patching problems instead of going for the foundation. Then there are things that people just accept as part of the game but have been absurd for the longest time, like Medivac tankiness - and on that note I think the Warp Prism could use 20-30 shields converted into hit points as well. Viking change serves no purpose. It just makes TvT into a greater fiesta than it already is, and is largely unnecessary TvP. The Viper/tank proposition is just absolutely wild, if anything I would have thought it would disable siege mode just for consistency purposes. Aside from the bugfixes and baneling HP everything proposed is dogwater. Agreed 100% | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25707 Posts
On September 19 2025 11:13 CicadaSC wrote: Larger changes are the only thing that will get me to come back to the game in any serious matter. Balanced or not, and for the sake of the argument let's just assume the game is perfectly balanced, it's still stale. If not these I would advocate for some other big sweeping changes. Right so if they’re radical enough, you’ll come back to the game if changes are made. Even if they’re not balanced Whereas people who’ve played the game non-stop for 15 years in some cases, have to put up with daft changes that make laddering a fucking torture? | ||
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RandomPlayer
Russian Federation395 Posts
I love the smaller tweaks, but not storm/plague/viking changes. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9217 Posts
On September 19 2025 13:52 RandomPlayer wrote: If you want to keep the game alive, you may want to bring the changes that make it fun to play, that create new strategies, moments of exploration. I love the smaller tweaks, but not storm/plague/viking changes. There's going to be plenty to explore in ZvP if those changes go through. Lair tech Zerg will get much stronger tools and we might see microbial shroud timing attacks or a return of mass baneling runbys. I hated the latter when it was a thing but the change certainly gives the Zerg more options. | ||
Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On September 19 2025 09:45 WombaT wrote: I don’t doubt Harstem had the idea. Of pro players he’s quite reasonable in identifying potential issues with his own race, better than most. But I would assume Harstem had a minor tweak in mind. He probably said storm is brutally punishing, especially at lower levels and people maybe should get a little more time to mitigate the damage. Storm should scale with MMR imo. Make you earn that damage. Jokes aside, I don't fundamentally hate this change - I hate that a change this massive, that is a design change more than anything else, is made as part of a patch that otherwise (MS and tank change aside) just tweaks a few numbers for balance and leaves everything else as is. I really enjoy Dota's "here's a completely new game" patches, and I thought SC2 needed those desperately back when it was still a big game. This storm change is of that nature, but the rest will likely just be the same game with slightly different metrics. And after years of intricate balancing around every little number, making something as integral as storm is to Protoss so fundamentally different, that simply blows the entire game's balance apart where Protoss is involved. Because other things in the game were balanced with storm in mind the way it was. You're looking at things like medivac healing, marauder health, even Protoss air in PvP where storm is an important counter to mass void ray strategies. My view is this - if you're ready to make changes like that, have the courage to make sweeping design changes across the board. Experiment drastically with how different units function, add or remove abilities, experiment with the attack bonuses of different units, etc. and let players go wild trying to figure out new things. That's what a lot of the excitement of earlier SC2 was about. But all I'm seeing here is storm getting hit for being too punishing - which, at most levels, it probably is - but the same not being applied anywhere else. Unfortunately, that's one of the downsides of having pros more or less self-regulate through the Balance Council. There's always going to be a conflict of interest there which will make them hesitant to propose sweeping changes that would affect their own potential success. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1437 Posts
IDK how it would be good idea to add it in sc2 where armies move so much faster across map and zerg has multiple mobility tools to make it even faster. Even at 50% it's a ridiculous spell. With how much damage there is in SC2 200 fights, a 50% reduction would single handedly swing fight | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1233 Posts
On September 19 2025 06:23 CicadaSC wrote: This is exactly what I have been hoping for, sort of. Big exciting changes are what we need. Shake up the game because it feels stale right now. NOT balance tweaks. Radical changes. I wanna see pros play this. Removing Protoss from professional play is definitely a radical change. EDIT: I'm going to keep saying it until I'm blue in the face. We need them to revert to a patch that we know is balanced from available data. Trying to fix the game without the expertise required to do so is only making it more and more broken with every attempt. Go and look at the data. It gets worse and worse the further we get from Blizzard's last patch. | ||
digmouse
China6330 Posts
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KarlSiegt
Italy36 Posts
I always thought that when they created SC2 they took the best things from SCBW and made a terrible copy of it. The things that have been introduced instead are either poorly made units or structurally wrong dynamics for an RTS. I always thought the balancing team had hamsters on a wheel in the brain. With this latest Patch I realized that the balance team is made up of drunken monkeys, with hamsters in their brains. I'm so sorry. Bye. | ||
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Russano
United States426 Posts
Spire and Baneling buff both seem like good tweaks, although baneling buff + storm changes are odd to stick together. Microbial shroud seems pretty insane - budget dark swarm. When armor is involved, doesn't this mitigate a metric ton of damage? Even a bad version of dark swam seems pretty OP. Energy overcharge tweak seems perfect. Mothership - fine, I guess. Hard to truly judge the psionic storm change without seeing it in action, but my first impression is that it basically neuters the spell, does it not? Most games I watch, units are not sitting in storms. They are either spread out and don't get hit much, or they get pulled out of it. A large portion also just continue walking through the storm until they get out on the other side naturally. This feels like you are cutting storms damage in half. Also feels like it swings late game PvZ to favor the Zerg as corruptors already just dodge storms. It really feels like if they want to go in this direction the damage should be 7 or 8. One thing I do like about this change is the way the spell would interface with lurkers/mines/tanks - could lead to some repositioning battles. Its amazing to me to look back and see how nerfed every protoss unit is when compared to the start of LotV. All 3 sources of splash are now weaker than before, zealts don't have charge damage, stalkers/adepts both nerfed. DT Blink - fine I guess, might bring more of its usage back which will be potentially important with the other changes. Feels like the delay could have simply been reverted instead. Obs change - Who asked for this? Why would you ever put in surveillance mode? It will just die immediately to whatever shows up - in all 3 matchups.. Now it seems like you should just put the thing on patrol instead - which is gonna drive the F2 peeps (like Hero) absolutely bonkers. This seems like an awful change. Siege Tank - Vipers have always been a garbage design and abduct far too powerful. This is better from a balance perspective but a flavor fail. Abducting siege tanks was the iconic move from the campaign. Viking Cost - Is this trying to help out mech or something, have a bunch of walking vikings?? Are Vikings not fine as they are? This seems like another indirect nerf to colossus which is a bad idea given that you are also tweaking storm. Drilling Claws - obnoxious ability as always, but fine I guess. Hyperspeed Rotors - good minor buff. Speed banshees are cool. Overall, most is tolerable to me, but I hate the storm/obs changes. Changing storm while also nerfing/buffing 3 other things adjacent to storm seems terrible. Shroud design change could be far too strong (or end up being rarely seen like the current interation). Also leery on the Viking change - maybe just 25 minerals instead of 25/25. Just make the smaller tweaks and go from there. Don't push too hard too fast. (Or if you are going to do this sort of thing, push WAY harder and WAY faster all over the place.) | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2234 Posts
Let's increase Baneling health, while nerfing storm's damage by 50%! A brilliant idea, truly brilliant. Can't wait for the cute little green blobs of joy to finally roll in unabstructed! Also, now that storm is useless in PvT, let's make the Viking insanely cheap for no apparent reason! The colossus must stay useless at all costs! Fabulous changes, truly fabulous. Protoss was winning almost 1/3 of the big events this year, can't have that! Also, they're performing really well in the 200$ weekly cups!!111 Bring down the righteous hammer of nerf. | ||
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