On July 01 2025 17:03 MJG wrote: Protoss isn't allowed to win things, but Protoss has recently won THREE things, and such wrongthink will surely be punished by the righteous nerfhammer of the most holy Balance Council.
interesting changes, only thing I really dislike is the storm change, as I think storm is the one Protoss mechanic that creates really dynamic and interesting interactions with high displayablity of skill on both sides.
Other than that I dislike the abduct change mostly for design/lore reasons. Why wouldn't a Viper be able to abduct a tank, when it can even pull a Lurker from under the ground?
Excited for spire, baneling, microbial shroud and Viking changes. Zerg seems to have gotten by far the best changes imo
I like the Spire changes vT, I'd love for muta ling bling to be more viable, vP I'm not sure it will change much. Hopefully it doesn't make Mutas too good in ZvZ. I feel like the abduct change makes no sense, but between blinding clouds and +5 health on banelings I think Zerg will be fine.
Don't like the storm changes, storm was fine in almost all metas, toss just has too many of them rn and the nerf to energy overcharge fixes that. I would also like something to nerf tempests and make Protoss ground better against lurkers, but maybe that's too much to expect of the balance council.
Terran changes seem fine. I'd be open to a change that makes ghosts 2 supply again but a little bit less tanky, but this would also be possibly tricky to balance.
Psionic Storm duration increased from 2.86 to 8.58.
Psionic Storm damage reduced from 10 to 5 damage per tick.
Let's turn the most iconic ability of Protoss into another ability used solely for zoning. The strong, expensive, slow race apparently also can't have anything that is actually good in a fight. The entire racial identity is now in NOT fighting.
On September 19 2025 03:00 Sent. wrote: Those Storm and Microbial Shroud changes are huge.
Anyone knows why they are buffing the Viking and why they are making it cheaper instead of adjusting its combat stats in some way?
Well, terran needs some help in lategame after the Ghost nerf last patch and now Baneling and Shroud buffs. Probably cheaper instead of stronger so maxed terran won't be OP again
I may have to draw upon my old balance whining ways. At least increase storm radius if you're going to make it a zoning tool? Make it so the buffed mass banelings don't just roll through the little tickling cloud?
I'm no oracle but I don't see how this storm change doesn't either lead to massive changes elsewhere or get significantly reworked soon - after a period where no Protoss wins a game that currently requires storm to win, of course.
The storm change is absolutely stupid. The Microbial Shroud change is basically reintroducing Dark Swarm into SC2 only 15 years after the game first came out which is also hilarious.
At what point are they just going to recognize that Abduct was a terrible idea for a spell and replace it entirely. They now have 2 restrictions on what kinds of units it can be used on. How many other units are they gonna add to that list? Tanks in Siege Mode are literally the unit in the tutorial for the spell in the campaign, if you cant abduct those then what the hell is even the point of the spell anymore?
All of this is just more evidence that the balance team is throwing darts at a board with a blindfold on. No actual vision in any of these changes, they're just trying things out to see what sticks, which wouldn't be such a bad idea except we KNOW from years and years of experience that once shit is put on the PTR it RARELY gets removed or majorly adjusted before it hits live realms. No matter how bad the idea is, it must plague the ladder for 6 months before they walk it back and start the entire process over again.
Shroud reducing range damage by 50% make Lurker-Hydra effing un-killable now, like what unit not doing range damage from Terran? At least Protoss get Zealot- Archon. That is just like Dark Swarm in BW now.
And Tank can still be Blinding Cloud, but with Cheaper Viking then Terran can just zone out those Vipers easier. Also, cheaper Vikings meaning no more Colossi build from PvT, nor BLord from ZvT.
The storm and observer changes are just unjustifiable and awful...I'm glad we're getting a patch but these two changes are nonsensical and damaging to the game state. Who approved these? Storm was just fine as an ability, it was energy overcharge that made it problematic. Now that that is nerfed there is no need to butcher storm.
Alright, I was a HUGE advocate of Protoss nerfs, but I'm pretty sure that is going way overboard (especially the storm one). I like the general trend and the underlying ideas, but man will a P ever win something again ?
(HM is jokingly saying in his stream "Ah, Harstem is now in charge", but notice a lot of those changes actually were in a Harstem balance change ideas : . Harstem = balance council confirmed )
Beside the storm change and many of the ideas are interesting. The microbial shroud change can be tweaked. I am very curious to see how it plays out. Combined with tank change, could completely change how the game plays out.
Since I am a big abduct hater. Any nerf to that is welcome. The vikings buff. I don't fully get it. But I hate tier 3 air so any indirect nerf to that I am fine with.
The Golden Armada against Zerg has to be dead if these storm changes go live, right? Storm and Archons are the only things that can hold off Corruptors and Storm is significantly better at that due to range. Now it would just tickle the Corruptors.
While a lot of people would cheer that, Protoss air has to be a threat to Zerg players going lurkers or lurkers become unbeatable after a point.
On September 19 2025 04:11 [PkF] Wire wrote: Is this something that's going to be tested and maybe adjusted before release ? The Blizzard article just gives the raw changes and nothing else.
It's a PTR change so technically these changes are not final yet. Realistically based on how these patches usually go, these changes are gonna hit the live realms with virtually no alterations and we'll be playing under them for several months before any more adjustments are made.
On September 19 2025 04:18 nimbim wrote: I don't mind any of the other changes, but storm I just don't understand. After 8 seconds the fight is mostly over. What's the use case for storm now?
These seem very random. The storm change means banelings are going to roll through it with ease. 50% damage reduction under microbial shroud is A CHOICE, too.
A fact that is super important to note: the "50% damage reduction" on microbial shroud is highly misleading. It does not mean that it will take 50% less damage, what it means is 50% less damage dealt before armor is subtracted. Let me give an example for clarity:
Suppose you have a roach with +3 armor (which means 4 armor total). and a +3 attack marine (9 damage). Then the damage is calculated as 50% of 9 = 4.5, and afterwards the armor is subtracted: 4.5-4=0.5 damage. Without microbial shroud it would have been 9-4=5 damage. So in this situation it is actually 90% less damage taken. In general it will always subtract 50% or more.
This design (choice?) currently has an advantage in that it made it an explicit hard counter to carriers in particular. When it now starts affecting all ranged units it will start feeling very unpredictable as it removes completely different damage percentages from different units and also depends a lot on armor upgrades.
Do we have the work force at SC Blizzard to change how this works?
edit: also they should rename psionic storm to psionic breeze
Uhhhhhh the storm change is WILD. That's definitely a big ol choice right there. Definitely wanted it to be adjusted, but the pendulum on this swings like a game in beta.
The other changes seem....interesting? Guess we're embracing our chaos arc!
I kinda like the direction of things, but the balance will definitely need to be tested. Currently I'm sure it's whack as hell.
Shroud being more like Plaque but less extreme is cool! But need to test if putting several shroud will make a mech comp too weak. Probably fine as long as you're not super tank heavy. Tanks not being abducted anymore is a cool change, blinding cloud and now shroud are already potent vs tanks. Getting ghosts now as Terran is harder (3 supply), so not needing to worry about Abduct as much is nice.
Storm change is WAY too crazy. If you don't want units to blow up so quick, maybe change the damage from 10 per tick to 8 or something. But this will fuck up the balance because certain things need to be able to be killed fast by psistorm. Or else they can run through them and still live. This will completely change things.
Viking reduction as a mech player is amazing, but sounds broken. It'll now be the same cost as Stalker and wreck them on the ground. They were already stronger before due to the +mechanical damage. Maybe this is an attempt to buff mech though without buffing the cyclone? Bio won't invest enough in Viking upgrades for them to scale well enough vs Chargelot/Stalker/Immortal, and Vikings on the ground don't compliment Bio well. I'm hoping this ends up being a genius change but it doesn't sound balanced.
I'm not sure if buffing Banshee Speed to research quicker was necessary. But I guess it might make TvP mech slightly more rounded due to having less of a window Protoss can all-in you.
Don't really like the Baneling HP being reverted back again. Especially now they have Shroud.
The observer change is weird too. Guess they want pro players to rely less on F2? Whereas being able to go into surveillance as a noob is still nice being able to F2 your army.
One thing I really appreciate though is that while they fixed the Cyclone lockon cd (it was shorter than it was supposed to be), they kept the bugged increased dps according to these notes. I hope they keep the increased dps (but do it properly instead of leaving it as a bug) as it's shown to allow mech TvP to work without breaking the Cyclone in other MUs/scenarios.
Saw HeroMarine streaming a PTR so came in to check the patch notes. Balance Council continues to be a joke. I'm glad I quit the game and have pretty much stopped watching SC2. I can't believe the Council decided to make Storms useless and nerf the Vipers like this. I'm a Terran fan because I like watching Terran micro but this is way too much.
Storm gets nerf to the ground. Storm was something that toss could rely against bio ball. Now it’s total garbage. If they gonna nerf storm at least buff the col and distributor. Also basically timing attack from Zerg with hydra ling bane will have a 100% win rate
Viper cannot abduct siege tanks? lol clown idea
@wombat. The wombat patch got nerf. What you think ?
This is exactly what I have been hoping for, sort of.
Big exciting changes are what we need. Shake up the game because it feels stale right now. NOT balance tweaks. Radical changes. I wanna see pros play this.
Blizzard may as well not patch when we get barely communicated garbage once a year if we're lucky. Patches need to be every 3-6 months or at least have a revisionary patch instead of sticking us with garbage.
On September 19 2025 06:43 monitor wrote: There’s balance and there’s game design. Two distinct aspects of the patch.
I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications.
Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided.
Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core.
On September 19 2025 06:43 monitor wrote: There’s balance and there’s game design. Two distinct aspects of the patch.
I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications.
Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided.
Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core.
Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them...
On September 19 2025 06:43 monitor wrote: There’s balance and there’s game design. Two distinct aspects of the patch.
I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications.
Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided.
Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core.
Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them...
Agreed.
Removing Queens would be as difficult to do as removing Warp Gate would be. You'd need to completely retool the race and totally change around their tech tree in order to make up for all of the things Queens currently do for Zerg.
Is it a good idea to change Zerg so they aren't so dependent on this one catch all of a unit? Absolutely. But it's not as easy as just taking the Mothership Core out. The Mothership core was JUST a defensive bandaid, one that they were able to replace with Shield Batteries. Queens are a defensive bandaid, a very important map control tool, and a production enhancer. Zerg would need replacement mechanics for all of those in order to completely replace the Queen.
Good idea? I think so. But it would be difficult to implement.
On September 19 2025 06:43 monitor wrote: There’s balance and there’s game design. Two distinct aspects of the patch.
I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications.
Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided.
Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core.
Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them...
Agreed.
Removing Queens would be as difficult to do as removing Warp Gate would be. You'd need to completely retool the race and totally change around their tech tree in order to make up for all of the things Queens currently do for Zerg.
Is it a good idea to change Zerg so they aren't so dependent on this one catch all of a unit? Absolutely. But it's not as easy as just taking the Mothership Core out. The Mothership core was JUST a defensive bandaid, one that they were able to replace with Shield Batteries. Queens are a defensive bandaid, a very important map control tool, and a production enhancer. Zerg would need replacement mechanics for all of those in order to completely replace the Queen.
Good idea? I think so. But it would be difficult to implement.
All good points. Beyond just the balance implications, we'd also be removing maybe the single most foundational mechanical aspect of the entire race--hell, maybe of all three races. Your basic cycle/rhythm from the moment you start Zerg is based around Queen injects and spreading creep and moving them accordingly. Taking them out would be burning a decade of muscle memory away for players.
In favor of queens being removed but yes you’d have to completely rework Z (and of course same with removing warpgate - or making it slower than gateways - would also be a huge rework)!
On September 19 2025 06:43 monitor wrote: There’s balance and there’s game design. Two distinct aspects of the patch.
I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications.
Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided.
Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core.
Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them...
That literally described Protoss with the Mothership Core. After they removed it, they had to add Shield Batteries, but those weren't enough, so they added the overcharge ability, but then people complained, so that was removed and Energy Recharge was added, but then people complained, so that is being nerfed and storm gutted.
Larva production could be increased and Zerg players could invest further into macro hatcheries like they do in Brood War.
Protoss will get absolutely fucking butchered if those storm changes go through, what the fuck is that?
Terrans and Zergs will just run through it and kill you.
Luckily Toss can count on the Colossus to fill the AoE role. Wait, Vikings are also cheaper now?
The whole point of surveillance mode is just to stick observers in place, it always was. If that’s an issue, I’d argue nerf its vision range in that mode slightly, be less F2 friendly. Not the opposite. What’s the point in having observers with a bit more vision range that can be killed by anything that can shoot up?
Siege tanks can’t be abducted I also don’t like. Why siege tanks specifically? From my understanding a lot of non-pro players already struggle playing versus mech, so let’s make it harder?
Why not Collosus and Disruptors? Unless you hit a really sharp timing, Vipers render Robo-centric play borderline useless. Indeed, it’s why Toss players go Airtoss in the first place.
Other stuff, I think there’s some interesting tweaks, and other stuff I’m not sure on, but interested to see how it plays out.
The Templar change will completely make Toss unviable at the top level at least, there’s nothing to compensate properly. Templars now suck, so you have to look at another AoE option. Well, if it’s Colossus Terran can squeeze more Vikings out, and Disruptors are already suffering from their last nerf.
In PvZ if Temps now suck, you will just die. Either you play the current meta, and Zergs will just run through your storms and kill you, or you adapt and go Robo, and Zergs will make a few vipers and laugh at you
On September 19 2025 06:43 monitor wrote: There’s balance and there’s game design. Two distinct aspects of the patch.
I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications.
Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided.
Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core.
Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them...
That literally described Protoss with the Mothership Core. After they removed it, they had to add Shield Batteries, but those weren't enough, so they added the overcharge ability, but then people complained, so that was removed and Energy Recharge was added, but then people complained, so that is being nerfed and storm gutted.
Larva production could be increased and Zerg players could invest further into macro hatcheries like they do in Brood War.
Queens also currently provide the only form of anti-air from a unit available before Lair, they are able to heal units and structures and Creep Tumors are currently one of the most powerful tools that any race has.
Even if you think that Creep should be nerfed, these are all simply MUCH bigger facets of the race than just what the Mothership Core used to provide. The fact that Protoss is still a work in progress for replacing that unit should give you an idea of how difficult it would be to remove Queens.
Like I said, the goal is a worthwhile one, but we couldn't even begin to try without serious consideration for everything involved in doing it.
On September 19 2025 09:08 WombaT wrote: Protoss will get absolutely fucking butchered if those storm changes go through, what the fuck is that?
Terrans and Zergs will just run through it and kill you.
Luckily Toss can count on the Colossus to fill the AoE role. Wait, Vikings are also cheaper now?
The whole point of surveillance mode is just to stick observers in place, it always was. If that’s an issue, I’d argue nerf its vision range in that mode slightly, be less F2 friendly. Not the opposite. What’s the point in having observers with a bit more vision range that can be killed by anything that can shoot up?
Siege tanks can’t be abducted I also don’t like. Why siege tanks specifically? From my understanding a lot of non-pro players already struggle playing versus mech, so let’s make it harder?
Why not Collosus and Disruptors? Unless you hit a really sharp timing, Vipers render Robo-centric play borderline useless. Indeed, it’s why Toss players go Airtoss in the first place.
Other stuff, I think there’s some interesting tweaks, and other stuff I’m not sure on, but interested to see how it plays out.
The Templar change will completely make Toss unviable at the top level at least, there’s nothing to compensate properly. Templars now suck, so you have to look at another AoE option. Well, if it’s Colossus Terran can squeeze more Vikings out, and Disruptors are already suffering from their last nerf.
In PvZ if Temps now suck, you will just die. Either you play the current meta, and Zergs will just run through your storms and kill you, or you adapt and go Robo, and Zergs will make a few vipers and laugh at you
Apparently the Storm change specifically we can directly blame on Harstem.
I seriously don't understand what the thought process is on it at all.
On September 19 2025 06:43 monitor wrote: There’s balance and there’s game design. Two distinct aspects of the patch.
I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications.
Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided.
Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core.
Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them...
That literally described Protoss with the Mothership Core. After they removed it, they had to add Shield Batteries, but those weren't enough, so they added the overcharge ability, but then people complained, so that was removed and Energy Recharge was added, but then people complained, so that is being nerfed and storm gutted.
Larva production could be increased and Zerg players could invest further into macro hatcheries like they do in Brood War.
Queens also currently provide the only form of anti-air from a unit available before Lair, they are able to heal units and structures and Creep Tumors are currently one of the most powerful tools that any race has.
Even if you think that Creep should be nerfed, these are all simply MUCH bigger facets of the race than just what the Mothership Core used to provide. The fact that Protoss is still a work in progress for replacing that unit should give you an idea of how difficult it would be to remove Queens.
Like I said, the goal is a worthwhile one, but we couldn't even begin to try without serious consideration for everything involved in doing it.
You do know that Zerg used to have a hatchery tech anti-air unit, right?
On September 19 2025 06:43 monitor wrote: There’s balance and there’s game design. Two distinct aspects of the patch.
I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications.
Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided.
Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core.
Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them...
That literally described Protoss with the Mothership Core. After they removed it, they had to add Shield Batteries, but those weren't enough, so they added the overcharge ability, but then people complained, so that was removed and Energy Recharge was added, but then people complained, so that is being nerfed and storm gutted.
Larva production could be increased and Zerg players could invest further into macro hatcheries like they do in Brood War.
Queens also currently provide the only form of anti-air from a unit available before Lair, they are able to heal units and structures and Creep Tumors are currently one of the most powerful tools that any race has.
Even if you think that Creep should be nerfed, these are all simply MUCH bigger facets of the race than just what the Mothership Core used to provide. The fact that Protoss is still a work in progress for replacing that unit should give you an idea of how difficult it would be to remove Queens.
Like I said, the goal is a worthwhile one, but we couldn't even begin to try without serious consideration for everything involved in doing it.
You do know that Zerg used to have a hatchery tech anti-air unit, right?
Oh I'm aware, but say we move Hydralisks to Tier 1. Would they be balanced at Tier 1? I don't think so, especially vs Protoss, Hydralisk busts are already meta in ZvP in Brood War, and if Hydralisks got moved to Hatch Tech I certainly think they would become an issue in the match up.
That's only one issue I can think of happening if we just swap Hydralisks to tier 1 without any other changes.
This also still wouldn't change anything about Queens' other roles.
On September 19 2025 09:08 WombaT wrote: Protoss will get absolutely fucking butchered if those storm changes go through, what the fuck is that?
Terrans and Zergs will just run through it and kill you.
Luckily Toss can count on the Colossus to fill the AoE role. Wait, Vikings are also cheaper now?
The whole point of surveillance mode is just to stick observers in place, it always was. If that’s an issue, I’d argue nerf its vision range in that mode slightly, be less F2 friendly. Not the opposite. What’s the point in having observers with a bit more vision range that can be killed by anything that can shoot up?
Siege tanks can’t be abducted I also don’t like. Why siege tanks specifically? From my understanding a lot of non-pro players already struggle playing versus mech, so let’s make it harder?
Why not Collosus and Disruptors? Unless you hit a really sharp timing, Vipers render Robo-centric play borderline useless. Indeed, it’s why Toss players go Airtoss in the first place.
Other stuff, I think there’s some interesting tweaks, and other stuff I’m not sure on, but interested to see how it plays out.
The Templar change will completely make Toss unviable at the top level at least, there’s nothing to compensate properly. Templars now suck, so you have to look at another AoE option. Well, if it’s Colossus Terran can squeeze more Vikings out, and Disruptors are already suffering from their last nerf.
In PvZ if Temps now suck, you will just die. Either you play the current meta, and Zergs will just run through your storms and kill you, or you adapt and go Robo, and Zergs will make a few vipers and laugh at you
Apparently the Storm change specifically we can directly blame on Harstem.
I seriously don't understand what the thought process is on it at all.
I don’t doubt Harstem had the idea. Of pro players he’s quite reasonable in identifying potential issues with his own race, better than most.
But I would assume Harstem had a minor tweak in mind.
He probably said storm is brutally punishing, especially at lower levels and people maybe should get a little more time to mitigate the damage.
I doubt he advocated for a storm nerf that will basically enable you to just walk through it.
Queens do not need to be removed, they need to get a cost increase or a supply cost increase, the unit fills so many roles for the price/supply it cost.
On September 19 2025 09:08 WombaT wrote: Protoss will get absolutely fucking butchered if those storm changes go through, what the fuck is that?
Terrans and Zergs will just run through it and kill you.
Luckily Toss can count on the Colossus to fill the AoE role. Wait, Vikings are also cheaper now?
The whole point of surveillance mode is just to stick observers in place, it always was. If that’s an issue, I’d argue nerf its vision range in that mode slightly, be less F2 friendly. Not the opposite. What’s the point in having observers with a bit more vision range that can be killed by anything that can shoot up?
Siege tanks can’t be abducted I also don’t like. Why siege tanks specifically? From my understanding a lot of non-pro players already struggle playing versus mech, so let’s make it harder?
Why not Collosus and Disruptors? Unless you hit a really sharp timing, Vipers render Robo-centric play borderline useless. Indeed, it’s why Toss players go Airtoss in the first place.
Other stuff, I think there’s some interesting tweaks, and other stuff I’m not sure on, but interested to see how it plays out.
The Templar change will completely make Toss unviable at the top level at least, there’s nothing to compensate properly. Templars now suck, so you have to look at another AoE option. Well, if it’s Colossus Terran can squeeze more Vikings out, and Disruptors are already suffering from their last nerf.
In PvZ if Temps now suck, you will just die. Either you play the current meta, and Zergs will just run through your storms and kill you, or you adapt and go Robo, and Zergs will make a few vipers and laugh at you
Bio ball will literally Stim a move and crush the toss army
Lings and banes literally laugh at it. Now banes will definitely connect no matter what
Basically Terran and Zergs no longer need to bait out storms. They just need to be decisive on the attack and run though it
On September 19 2025 09:08 WombaT wrote: Protoss will get absolutely fucking butchered if those storm changes go through, what the fuck is that?
Terrans and Zergs will just run through it and kill you.
Luckily Toss can count on the Colossus to fill the AoE role. Wait, Vikings are also cheaper now?
The whole point of surveillance mode is just to stick observers in place, it always was. If that’s an issue, I’d argue nerf its vision range in that mode slightly, be less F2 friendly. Not the opposite. What’s the point in having observers with a bit more vision range that can be killed by anything that can shoot up?
Siege tanks can’t be abducted I also don’t like. Why siege tanks specifically? From my understanding a lot of non-pro players already struggle playing versus mech, so let’s make it harder?
Why not Collosus and Disruptors? Unless you hit a really sharp timing, Vipers render Robo-centric play borderline useless. Indeed, it’s why Toss players go Airtoss in the first place.
Other stuff, I think there’s some interesting tweaks, and other stuff I’m not sure on, but interested to see how it plays out.
The Templar change will completely make Toss unviable at the top level at least, there’s nothing to compensate properly. Templars now suck, so you have to look at another AoE option. Well, if it’s Colossus Terran can squeeze more Vikings out, and Disruptors are already suffering from their last nerf.
In PvZ if Temps now suck, you will just die. Either you play the current meta, and Zergs will just run through your storms and kill you, or you adapt and go Robo, and Zergs will make a few vipers and laugh at you
Bio ball will literally Stim a move and crush the toss army
Lings and banes literally laugh at it. Now banes will definitely connect no matter what
Basically Terran and Zergs no longer need to bait out storms. They just need to be decisive on the attack and run though it
Yep.
I’m not very good at the game, and even I think I could just engage through the new Storm, what the fuck is a Clem going to do?
I mean I know we’re in the phase of a bunch of ideas, not all will make it into an actual patch. But this, it just can’t make it in, it’s crazy
Love the idea of the patch a lot. After we get some pro games on it numbers may need to be tweaked. Storm may need to be stronger etc, (or leave some sort of status effect like a DoT?) but after number tweaks where need be I think these ideas look solid. I love Zerg is getting dark swarm and really you won't need to abduct siege tanks when you can microbial shroud or blinding cloud engage. Sure ghost snipes can be good, but let's not forget baneling under cloud will help them to get onto ghost. I think it will just make engagements more committed. Can go wrong for Zerg just as much as it can go well. Where as abducts you are sort of playing a positional grindy game as a way of picking them apart. I like this change as it moves closer to Broodwar.
Had to check it's not April 1'st. These changes, especially the larger ones, are awful IMO. Revert all please. In future a paragraph arguing for each change and a poll requiring large majority approval would be appropriate
On September 19 2025 06:43 monitor wrote: There’s balance and there’s game design. Two distinct aspects of the patch.
I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications.
Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided.
Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core.
Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them...
That literally described Protoss with the Mothership Core. After they removed it, they had to add Shield Batteries, but those weren't enough, so they added the overcharge ability, but then people complained, so that was removed and Energy Recharge was added, but then people complained, so that is being nerfed and storm gutted.
Larva production could be increased and Zerg players could invest further into macro hatcheries like they do in Brood War.
Queens also currently provide the only form of anti-air from a unit available before Lair, they are able to heal units and structures and Creep Tumors are currently one of the most powerful tools that any race has.
Even if you think that Creep should be nerfed, these are all simply MUCH bigger facets of the race than just what the Mothership Core used to provide. The fact that Protoss is still a work in progress for replacing that unit should give you an idea of how difficult it would be to remove Queens.
Like I said, the goal is a worthwhile one, but we couldn't even begin to try without serious consideration for everything involved in doing it.
You do know that Zerg used to have a hatchery tech anti-air unit, right?
I like how you try to re-design an entire race with one-liners.
While this has nothing to do with the patch, just a quick rundown (piggybacking a bit of Vindicare here):
1)Early Anti-Air: Queens are the only early-antiair Zerg has next to investing heavily into spores - which Zergs already do most of the times anyway against Protoss for example. But more importantly, Queens are also the only current Anti-Air that isn't shit. You can't build Corruptors against two Banshees or to chase away the (much faster) 2-3 Oracles. Even if they do, you now have Corruptors (and a very expensive Spire) you can't really do anything with. And Hydralisk could be T1, but then they would obviously need to be nerfed in some way, meaning Zerg loses another T2 option. Compared to Marines or Stalkers these are all not great options.
2)Early defense In general, Queens are the most important defensive tool Zerg has. With the need to rapidely expand to 3-4 bases, you can't wall your stuff. And while Zerglings are fast, they are also outgunned in the early game, which is obviously a good thing. Hellions would have a field-day, Reapers aswell, Adepts probably too.
3)Creep-spread Creep-spread is essential for Zerg. So how would you spread it? Creep tumors need to be spawned from Hatcheries? That slows the creep-spread down so massively, it's unbelievable. Especially considering how fast e.g. Terran can remove Tumors.
4)Injects You could Auto-Inject for sure, but why would you remove needed APM from Zerg when your goal is to nerf Zerg? And if the Hatcheries can inject themselves...for one it would be cheaper than with Queens, but it also just feels...lame? Like a lamer version of Chrono-Boost? And yeah, Macro-Hatcheries clearly solve the problem...just invest 300 Minerals more into a base you don't really need, that should help, especially in the early game.
5)Heal Probably the one thing you could give another/new unit, but I always thought the fact that in some cases Queen Energy becomes more valuable than Minerals was quite a cool mechanic.
You cannot throw all of this out. You also can't just give each aspect to a new unit, because Zerg actually kind of needs all of that in the beginning and paying for five units instead of one is way too expensive in all regards (Minerals, Larva, APM). You probably *can* remove the Queen, but the amount of rebalancing you would have to do is insane. Not just for Zerg, but for alle races. Because either you take a lot of early-pressure off of Zerg (aka. nerf the other two) or you give Zerg something to defend, but that something can't be too good at offensive either...
I get the impulse, really. I hate the Medievac with a burning passion, especially the instant-pickup. I think it is lame, a "free-out-of-jail"-card and is way too easy. But I know that just removing the Medievac and giving Terran a Dropship and the Medics back will fix anything. Because these two units together are vastly worse than just a Medievac.
On September 19 2025 10:59 Cyro wrote: Had to check it's not April 1'st. These changes, especially the larger ones, are awful IMO. Revert all please. In future a paragraph arguing for each change and a poll requiring large majority approval would be appropriate
Larger changes are the only thing that will get me to come back to the game in any serious matter. Balanced or not, and for the sake of the argument let's just assume the game is perfectly balanced, it's still stale. If not these I would advocate for some other big sweeping changes.
On September 19 2025 06:43 monitor wrote: There’s balance and there’s game design. Two distinct aspects of the patch.
I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications.
Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided.
Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core.
Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them...
That literally described Protoss with the Mothership Core. After they removed it, they had to add Shield Batteries, but those weren't enough, so they added the overcharge ability, but then people complained, so that was removed and Energy Recharge was added, but then people complained, so that is being nerfed and storm gutted.
Larva production could be increased and Zerg players could invest further into macro hatcheries like they do in Brood War.
Queens also currently provide the only form of anti-air from a unit available before Lair, they are able to heal units and structures and Creep Tumors are currently one of the most powerful tools that any race has.
Even if you think that Creep should be nerfed, these are all simply MUCH bigger facets of the race than just what the Mothership Core used to provide. The fact that Protoss is still a work in progress for replacing that unit should give you an idea of how difficult it would be to remove Queens.
Like I said, the goal is a worthwhile one, but we couldn't even begin to try without serious consideration for everything involved in doing it.
You do know that Zerg used to have a hatchery tech anti-air unit, right?
I like how you try to re-design an entire race with one-liners.
While this has nothing to do with the patch, just a quick rundown (piggybacking a bit of Vindicare here):
1)Early Anti-Air: Queens are the only early-antiair Zerg has next to investing heavily into spores - which Zergs already do most of the times anyway against Protoss for example. But more importantly, Queens are also the only current Anti-Air that isn't shit. You can't build Corruptors against two Banshees or to chase away the (much faster) 2-3 Oracles. Even if they do, you now have Corruptors (and a very expensive Spire) you can't really do anything with. And Hydralisk could be T1, but then they would obviously need to be nerfed in some way, meaning Zerg loses another T2 option. Compared to Marines or Stalkers these are all not great options.
2)Early defense In general, Queens are the most important defensive tool Zerg has. With the need to rapidely expand to 3-4 bases, you can't wall your stuff. And while Zerglings are fast, they are also outgunned in the early game, which is obviously a good thing. Hellions would have a field-day, Reapers aswell, Adepts probably too.
3)Creep-spread Creep-spread is essential for Zerg. So how would you spread it? Creep tumors need to be spawned from Hatcheries? That slows the creep-spread down so massively, it's unbelievable. Especially considering how fast e.g. Terran can remove Tumors.
4)Injects You could Auto-Inject for sure, but why would you remove needed APM from Zerg when your goal is to nerf Zerg? And if the Hatcheries can inject themselves...for one it would be cheaper than with Queens, but it also just feels...lame? Like a lamer version of Chrono-Boost? And yeah, Macro-Hatcheries clearly solve the problem...just invest 300 Minerals more into a base you don't really need, that should help, especially in the early game.
5)Heal Probably the one thing you could give another/new unit, but I always thought the fact that in some cases Queen Energy becomes more valuable than Minerals was quite a cool mechanic.
You cannot throw all of this out. You also can't just give each aspect to a new unit, because Zerg actually kind of needs all of that in the beginning and paying for five units instead of one is way too expensive in all regards (Minerals, Larva, APM). You probably *can* remove the Queen, but the amount of rebalancing you would have to do is insane. Not just for Zerg, but for alle races. Because either you take a lot of early-pressure off of Zerg (aka. nerf the other two) or you give Zerg something to defend, but that something can't be too good at offensive either...
I get the impulse, really. I hate the Medievac with a burning passion, especially the instant-pickup. I think it is lame, a "free-out-of-jail"-card and is way too easy. But I know that just removing the Medievac and giving Terran a Dropship and the Medics back will fix anything. Because these two units together are vastly worse than just a Medievac.
If I had my way the removal (or at least the scaling back) of the Queen would come hand in hand with a rework to Warp Gate as a late game tool.
With both tools removed from the early game arsenal for Protoss and Zerg, you could adjust Terran's early game accordingly. Lock Marauders behind an additional tech structure where Stim would also be researched (Academy anyone?) and adjust tech up speeds in other ways also.
There's still my concern that having both Roaches and Hydralisks at Tier 1 would allow Zergs to hit some gnarly ass upgrade timings at Lair tech but those could be adjusted as they emerge.
On September 19 2025 09:08 WombaT wrote: Protoss will get absolutely fucking butchered if those storm changes go through, what the fuck is that?
Terrans and Zergs will just run through it and kill you.
Luckily Toss can count on the Colossus to fill the AoE role. Wait, Vikings are also cheaper now?
The whole point of surveillance mode is just to stick observers in place, it always was. If that’s an issue, I’d argue nerf its vision range in that mode slightly, be less F2 friendly. Not the opposite. What’s the point in having observers with a bit more vision range that can be killed by anything that can shoot up?
Siege tanks can’t be abducted I also don’t like. Why siege tanks specifically? From my understanding a lot of non-pro players already struggle playing versus mech, so let’s make it harder?
Why not Collosus and Disruptors? Unless you hit a really sharp timing, Vipers render Robo-centric play borderline useless. Indeed, it’s why Toss players go Airtoss in the first place.
Other stuff, I think there’s some interesting tweaks, and other stuff I’m not sure on, but interested to see how it plays out.
The Templar change will completely make Toss unviable at the top level at least, there’s nothing to compensate properly. Templars now suck, so you have to look at another AoE option. Well, if it’s Colossus Terran can squeeze more Vikings out, and Disruptors are already suffering from their last nerf.
In PvZ if Temps now suck, you will just die. Either you play the current meta, and Zergs will just run through your storms and kill you, or you adapt and go Robo, and Zergs will make a few vipers and laugh at you
Bio ball will literally Stim a move and crush the toss army
Lings and banes literally laugh at it. Now banes will definitely connect no matter what
Basically Terran and Zergs no longer need to bait out storms. They just need to be decisive on the attack and run though it
Yep.
I’m not very good at the game, and even I think I could just engage through the new Storm, what the fuck is a Clem going to do?
I mean I know we’re in the phase of a bunch of ideas, not all will make it into an actual patch. But this, it just can’t make it in, it’s crazy
It’s a dumb idea and it’s even dumber that it actually went through. Feels like the balance council has low IQ.
I can somehow “acknowledge” this storm change IF and only if the casting range is similar to the attack range is siege tank or upgraded lurkers. Cause that’s how “zoning” suppose to work
I really wish there were comments for the justification and reasoning. The one from the original zealot shield change might actually be overtaken.
Approach is just flawed. If you think something needs adjustment then isolate one thing at a time and try to create as much of a vacuum as possible. Fundamentally changing storm and altering energy overcharge at the same time is asinine.
We've had 3T/2P/2Z racial split for the top prize money tournaments this year, with RSL S2 and the Memestro tournament wrapping up soon.
I'm all for experimental changes but going for ones like these instead of say something like limiting Queens to one per Hatchery and increasing energy and health regeneration, Movespeed, and attack speed doesn't seem fruitful. It's just a process of layering bandaids and patching problems instead of going for the foundation.
Then there are things that people just accept as part of the game but have been absurd for the longest time, like Medivac tankiness - and on that note I think the Warp Prism could use 20-30 shields converted into hit points as well.
Viking change serves no purpose. It just makes TvT into a greater fiesta than it already is, and is largely unnecessary TvP. The Viper/tank proposition is just absolutely wild, if anything I would have thought it would disable siege mode just for consistency purposes.
Aside from the bugfixes and baneling HP everything proposed is dogwater.
On September 19 2025 13:38 Agh wrote: I really wish there were comments for the justification and reasoning. The one from the original zealot shield change might actually be overtaken.
Approach is just flawed. If you think something needs adjustment then isolate one thing at a time and try to create as much of a vacuum as possible. Fundamentally changing storm and altering energy overcharge at the same time is asinine.
We've had 3T/2P/2Z racial split for the top prize money tournaments this year, with RSL S2 and the Memestro tournament wrapping up soon.
I'm all for experimental changes but going for ones like these instead of say something like limiting Queens to one per Hatchery and increasing energy and health regeneration, Movespeed, and attack speed doesn't seem fruitful. It's just a process of layering bandaids and patching problems instead of going for the foundation.
Then there are things that people just accept as part of the game but have been absurd for the longest time, like Medivac tankiness - and on that note I think the Warp Prism could use 20-30 shields converted into hit points as well.
Viking change serves no purpose. It just makes TvT into a greater fiesta than it already is, and is largely unnecessary TvP. The Viper/tank proposition is just absolutely wild, if anything I would have thought it would disable siege mode just for consistency purposes.
Aside from the bugfixes and baneling HP everything proposed is dogwater.
On September 19 2025 10:59 Cyro wrote: Had to check it's not April 1'st. These changes, especially the larger ones, are awful IMO. Revert all please. In future a paragraph arguing for each change and a poll requiring large majority approval would be appropriate
Larger changes are the only thing that will get me to come back to the game in any serious matter. Balanced or not, and for the sake of the argument let's just assume the game is perfectly balanced, it's still stale. If not these I would advocate for some other big sweeping changes.
Right so if they’re radical enough, you’ll come back to the game if changes are made. Even if they’re not balanced
Whereas people who’ve played the game non-stop for 15 years in some cases, have to put up with daft changes that make laddering a fucking torture?
On September 19 2025 13:52 RandomPlayer wrote: If you want to keep the game alive, you may want to bring the changes that make it fun to play, that create new strategies, moments of exploration.
I love the smaller tweaks, but not storm/plague/viking changes.
There's going to be plenty to explore in ZvP if those changes go through. Lair tech Zerg will get much stronger tools and we might see microbial shroud timing attacks or a return of mass baneling runbys. I hated the latter when it was a thing but the change certainly gives the Zerg more options.
On September 19 2025 09:08 WombaT wrote: Protoss will get absolutely fucking butchered if those storm changes go through, what the fuck is that?
Terrans and Zergs will just run through it and kill you.
Luckily Toss can count on the Colossus to fill the AoE role. Wait, Vikings are also cheaper now?
The whole point of surveillance mode is just to stick observers in place, it always was. If that’s an issue, I’d argue nerf its vision range in that mode slightly, be less F2 friendly. Not the opposite. What’s the point in having observers with a bit more vision range that can be killed by anything that can shoot up?
Siege tanks can’t be abducted I also don’t like. Why siege tanks specifically? From my understanding a lot of non-pro players already struggle playing versus mech, so let’s make it harder?
Why not Collosus and Disruptors? Unless you hit a really sharp timing, Vipers render Robo-centric play borderline useless. Indeed, it’s why Toss players go Airtoss in the first place.
Other stuff, I think there’s some interesting tweaks, and other stuff I’m not sure on, but interested to see how it plays out.
The Templar change will completely make Toss unviable at the top level at least, there’s nothing to compensate properly. Templars now suck, so you have to look at another AoE option. Well, if it’s Colossus Terran can squeeze more Vikings out, and Disruptors are already suffering from their last nerf.
In PvZ if Temps now suck, you will just die. Either you play the current meta, and Zergs will just run through your storms and kill you, or you adapt and go Robo, and Zergs will make a few vipers and laugh at you
Apparently the Storm change specifically we can directly blame on Harstem.
I seriously don't understand what the thought process is on it at all.
I don’t doubt Harstem had the idea. Of pro players he’s quite reasonable in identifying potential issues with his own race, better than most.
But I would assume Harstem had a minor tweak in mind.
He probably said storm is brutally punishing, especially at lower levels and people maybe should get a little more time to mitigate the damage.
Storm should scale with MMR imo. Make you earn that damage.
Jokes aside, I don't fundamentally hate this change - I hate that a change this massive, that is a design change more than anything else, is made as part of a patch that otherwise (MS and tank change aside) just tweaks a few numbers for balance and leaves everything else as is. I really enjoy Dota's "here's a completely new game" patches, and I thought SC2 needed those desperately back when it was still a big game. This storm change is of that nature, but the rest will likely just be the same game with slightly different metrics. And after years of intricate balancing around every little number, making something as integral as storm is to Protoss so fundamentally different, that simply blows the entire game's balance apart where Protoss is involved. Because other things in the game were balanced with storm in mind the way it was. You're looking at things like medivac healing, marauder health, even Protoss air in PvP where storm is an important counter to mass void ray strategies.
My view is this - if you're ready to make changes like that, have the courage to make sweeping design changes across the board. Experiment drastically with how different units function, add or remove abilities, experiment with the attack bonuses of different units, etc. and let players go wild trying to figure out new things. That's what a lot of the excitement of earlier SC2 was about. But all I'm seeing here is storm getting hit for being too punishing - which, at most levels, it probably is - but the same not being applied anywhere else.
Unfortunately, that's one of the downsides of having pros more or less self-regulate through the Balance Council. There's always going to be a conflict of interest there which will make them hesitant to propose sweeping changes that would affect their own potential success.
Getting Dark swarm on opponent's side of map is legitimately a win condition in BW. Game is as good as over moment 1 dark swarm gets casted near your natural against a Zerg
IDK how it would be good idea to add it in sc2 where armies move so much faster across map and zerg has multiple mobility tools to make it even faster. Even at 50% it's a ridiculous spell. With how much damage there is in SC2 200 fights, a 50% reduction would single handedly swing fight
On September 19 2025 06:23 CicadaSC wrote: This is exactly what I have been hoping for, sort of.
Big exciting changes are what we need. Shake up the game because it feels stale right now. NOT balance tweaks. Radical changes. I wanna see pros play this.
Removing Protoss from professional play is definitely a radical change.
EDIT:
I'm going to keep saying it until I'm blue in the face.
We need them to revert to a patch that we know is balanced from available data.
Trying to fix the game without the expertise required to do so is only making it more and more broken with every attempt.
Go and look at the data. It gets worse and worse the further we get from Blizzard's last patch.
Let me start by saying I've been playing StarCraft 2 since the first StarCraft1/BW came out, I was playing on LAN at home, so I'm that old. I always thought that when they created SC2 they took the best things from SCBW and made a terrible copy of it. The things that have been introduced instead are either poorly made units or structurally wrong dynamics for an RTS. I always thought the balancing team had hamsters on a wheel in the brain. With this latest Patch I realized that the balance team is made up of drunken monkeys, with hamsters in their brains. I'm so sorry. Bye.
Spire and Baneling buff both seem like good tweaks, although baneling buff + storm changes are odd to stick together.
Microbial shroud seems pretty insane - budget dark swarm. When armor is involved, doesn't this mitigate a metric ton of damage? Even a bad version of dark swam seems pretty OP.
Energy overcharge tweak seems perfect.
Mothership - fine, I guess.
Hard to truly judge the psionic storm change without seeing it in action, but my first impression is that it basically neuters the spell, does it not? Most games I watch, units are not sitting in storms. They are either spread out and don't get hit much, or they get pulled out of it. A large portion also just continue walking through the storm until they get out on the other side naturally. This feels like you are cutting storms damage in half. Also feels like it swings late game PvZ to favor the Zerg as corruptors already just dodge storms. It really feels like if they want to go in this direction the damage should be 7 or 8. One thing I do like about this change is the way the spell would interface with lurkers/mines/tanks - could lead to some repositioning battles.
Its amazing to me to look back and see how nerfed every protoss unit is when compared to the start of LotV. All 3 sources of splash are now weaker than before, zealts don't have charge damage, stalkers/adepts both nerfed.
DT Blink - fine I guess, might bring more of its usage back which will be potentially important with the other changes. Feels like the delay could have simply been reverted instead.
Obs change - Who asked for this? Why would you ever put in surveillance mode? It will just die immediately to whatever shows up - in all 3 matchups.. Now it seems like you should just put the thing on patrol instead - which is gonna drive the F2 peeps (like Hero) absolutely bonkers. This seems like an awful change.
Siege Tank - Vipers have always been a garbage design and abduct far too powerful. This is better from a balance perspective but a flavor fail. Abducting siege tanks was the iconic move from the campaign.
Viking Cost - Is this trying to help out mech or something, have a bunch of walking vikings?? Are Vikings not fine as they are? This seems like another indirect nerf to colossus which is a bad idea given that you are also tweaking storm.
Drilling Claws - obnoxious ability as always, but fine I guess.
Hyperspeed Rotors - good minor buff. Speed banshees are cool.
Overall, most is tolerable to me, but I hate the storm/obs changes. Changing storm while also nerfing/buffing 3 other things adjacent to storm seems terrible. Shroud design change could be far too strong (or end up being rarely seen like the current interation). Also leery on the Viking change - maybe just 25 minerals instead of 25/25. Just make the smaller tweaks and go from there. Don't push too hard too fast. (Or if you are going to do this sort of thing, push WAY harder and WAY faster all over the place.)
The Zerg council has struck again, and it's a home run!
Let's increase Baneling health, while nerfing storm's damage by 50%! A brilliant idea, truly brilliant. Can't wait for the cute little green blobs of joy to finally roll in unabstructed!
Also, now that storm is useless in PvT, let's make the Viking insanely cheap for no apparent reason! The colossus must stay useless at all costs! Fabulous changes, truly fabulous. Protoss was winning almost 1/3 of the big events this year, can't have that! Also, they're performing really well in the 200$ weekly cups!!111 Bring down the righteous hammer of nerf.
On September 19 2025 16:34 SharkStarcraft wrote: The Zerg council has struck again, and it's a home run!
Let's increase Baneling health, while nerfing storm's damage by 50%! A brilliant idea, truly brilliant. Can't wait for the cute little green blobs of joy to finally roll in unabstructed!
Also, now that storm is useless in PvT, let's make the Viking insanely cheap for no apparent reason! The colossus must stay useless at all costs! Fabulous changes, truly fabulous. Protoss was winning almost 1/3 of the big events this year, can't have that! Also, they're performing really well in the 200$ weekly cups!!111 Bring down the righteous hammer of nerf.
Let's nerf the late game Skytoss army by gutting Storm's damage, but let's also decrease Spire Cost so Corruptors can be spammed easier and then for good measure let's change Microbrial Shroud so that Lurkers are now even more ridiculous than they were before and they were already so strong that Protoss felt forced into building an air based army to deal with them in the first place.
Oh and Storm is also nigh useless against Terran now too just for good measure.
Yea I knew they were gonna cycle back and bring Protoss back down because that's how the cycle always goes, but this time around they are doing it in an especially stupid way.
On September 19 2025 18:30 tigera6 wrote: My best idea from a night lack of sleep: make storm deal no damage to Toss unit and Heal Shield, bring up the bullshit to match the Shroud.
I don't think the answer to terrible changes are even more terrible changes.
Would be cool to get a decent treatment as at this point I don't feel we should get hyped that we get SOMETHING on PTR anymore. And by decent I mean some explanation about the thought process behind the changes that aren't bug fixes.
It's good to experiment and try out bold(er) changes, but then also please give us some details about the thought process behind them.
This is still the same self-introduced design problem that stems from introducing more AoE options for Protoss. If you want to change AoE options for Protoss to feel more distinct, touch the freaking Disruptor and make it shoot Force Fields or something. Or make the Tempest deal splash damage against ground and turn it into a proper air Siege Tank.
This feels like just slinging shit at the wall again and see what might stick.
On September 19 2025 18:34 Creager wrote: Would be cool to get a decent treatment as at this point I don't feel we should get hyped that we get SOMETHING on PTR anymore. And by decent I mean some explanation about the thought process behind the changes that aren't bug fixes.
It's good to experiment and try out bold(er) changes, but then also please give us some details about the thought process behind them.
This is the entirety of the thought process:
On July 01 2025 17:03 MJG wrote: Protoss isn't allowed to win things, but Protoss has recently won THREE things, and such wrongthink will surely be punished by the righteous nerfhammer of the most holy Balance Council.
On September 19 2025 18:34 Creager wrote: Would be cool to get a decent treatment as at this point I don't feel we should get hyped that we get SOMETHING on PTR anymore. And by decent I mean some explanation about the thought process behind the changes that aren't bug fixes.
It's good to experiment and try out bold(er) changes, but then also please give us some details about the thought process behind them.
On July 01 2025 17:03 MJG wrote: Protoss isn't allowed to win things, but Protoss has recently won THREE things, and such wrongthink will surely be punished by the righteous nerfhammer of the most holy Balance Council.
Not sure if anybody at Blizzard actually counts wins per race, you're expecting too much here, I think.
On September 19 2025 18:34 Creager wrote: Would be cool to get a decent treatment as at this point I don't feel we should get hyped that we get SOMETHING on PTR anymore. And by decent I mean some explanation about the thought process behind the changes that aren't bug fixes.
It's good to experiment and try out bold(er) changes, but then also please give us some details about the thought process behind them.
This is the entirety of the thought process:
On July 01 2025 17:03 MJG wrote: Protoss isn't allowed to win things, but Protoss has recently won THREE things, and such wrongthink will surely be punished by the righteous nerfhammer of the most holy Balance Council.
Not sure if anybody at Blizzard actually counts wins per race, you're expecting too much here, I think.
The worst part is that Blizzard doesn't, but some of the remaining competitors spend their time doing what arguably amounts to anonymously rigging the game so that they can make more money.
I no longer accept that these changes are made in good faith, and i don't think that these guys should have access to modify the game design and balance now or ever again. They are severely harming our game.
IMO the game should be reverted to one of the Blizzard patches (decided by the community) and the council dissolved as a failed experiment due to far too much bias, too little accountability and the inability to fix mistakes (even massive ones) for a prolonged period of time.
On September 19 2025 18:34 Creager wrote: Would be cool to get a decent treatment as at this point I don't feel we should get hyped that we get SOMETHING on PTR anymore. And by decent I mean some explanation about the thought process behind the changes that aren't bug fixes.
It's good to experiment and try out bold(er) changes, but then also please give us some details about the thought process behind them.
This is the entirety of the thought process:
On July 01 2025 17:03 MJG wrote: Protoss isn't allowed to win things, but Protoss has recently won THREE things, and such wrongthink will surely be punished by the righteous nerfhammer of the most holy Balance Council.
Not sure if anybody at Blizzard actually counts wins per race, you're expecting too much here, I think.
Bold of you to assume that Blizzard are the ones driving these changes.
These changes are been driven by casters/players who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the controls.
Blizzard need to revert to one of their own patches (many of them were much more balanced than the current patch as per balance data readily available on Liquipedia) or else we're going to continue having year upon year of completely skewed tournament results stemming from poorly thought out, minimally tested design changes, like what we've had during this patch due to Energy Overcharge.
That storm change will make storm completely worthless , if you seriously suggest changes like these, it is seriously questionable you have any idea about the game. Longer duration storm is indirect buff to medivacs healing and bio which is already borderline to strong against protoss.
It is an indirect buff to banling / ling runby since they can just run straight through the storm into the mineral line without dying. It will be easier to save your workers from storm harassment. To even suggest this change clearly says how this balance council is not fit for the job.
Yo, why are they picking on observers? Does someone have a good explanation as to why it’s not balanced if it stays cloaked? I apologize in advance is this was answered, but I haven’t read every comment.
On September 19 2025 20:31 BisuDagger wrote: Yo, why are they picking on observers? Does someone have a good explanation as to why it’s not balanced if it stays cloaked? I apologize in advance is this was answered, but I haven’t read every comment.
It's purely to make Protoss more difficult because either:
a) Your Observers are invisible, but will be included in an F2. b) Your Observers are visible, but will not be included in an F2.
I actually think the Surveillance/Oversight modes on Observers and Overseers are dumb, but removing them would be a better option than only punishing Protoss for using them.
On September 19 2025 20:31 BisuDagger wrote: Yo, why are they picking on observers? Does someone have a good explanation as to why it’s not balanced if it stays cloaked? I apologize in advance is this was answered, but I haven’t read every comment.
If I had to guess it would be to balance out the HT rework so Protoss can't just zone out everything too easily. Makes the Observer weaker so Protoss defenses aren't just impenetrable. The HT may be too weak and not zone out anything but I believe that is the philosophy.
This might be the stupidest change I've ever seen ? Am I missing something here?
On September 19 2025 20:31 BisuDagger wrote: Yo, why are they picking on observers? Does someone have a good explanation as to why it’s not balanced if it stays cloaked? I apologize in advance is this was answered, but I haven’t read every comment.
It was not. We have no justification or explanation for any of the changes and we have no idea who is trying to push them either.
I think this is the worst patch attempt i've seen in 15 years
On September 19 2025 20:31 BisuDagger wrote: Yo, why are they picking on observers? Does someone have a good explanation as to why it’s not balanced if it stays cloaked? I apologize in advance is this was answered, but I haven’t read every comment.
If I had to guess it would be to balance out the HT rework so Protoss can't just zone out everything too easily. Makes the Observer weaker so Protoss defenses aren't just impenetrable. The HT may be too weak and not zone out anything but I believe that is the philosophy.
This is probably the justification, but it would only make sense if a long, weak storm were actually a problematically-strong zoning tool. But as people have pointed out, this storm can pretty much just be walked through, and it's not like HTs have super long range anyway. And it certainly doesn't justify breaking a basic rule of the game and the unit and adding a random annoyance for Toss players only.
The synchronicity of these changes, as people have pointed out, is actually the most bonkers thing about this. For PvZ, you've nerfed Protosses' principal way of dealing with Corruptors to practical uselessness, while at the same time making Corruptors come out faster. Alright, so you've effectively ended Skytoss as a viable late-game strategy, making Protoss go ground. But you've also nerfed Protosses' principal way of dealing with Banelings to practical uselessness, while at the same time buffing Banelings' HP. And for some inconceivable reason you've also given Zerg ground Dark Swarm, buffing Banelings even further but also making Lurkers (already too strong for Protoss ground to be viable) unbeatable.
For PvT, you've nerfed one of Protosses' most important tools for dealing with the infinite bioball. Alright, so Protoss will go Robo. But wait, you've also buffed Vikings, the cheap, spammable counter to Colossus, making them even more cheap and spammable. And wait, it's worse than that, because your main tool for dealing with Vikings was in fact psi storm: ipso facto rendering Skytoss also unplayable against Terran. Okay, so I guess Protoss can just go pure ground without Templar or Colossus, and use nerfed Disruptors and/or Immortal Zealot and have both die to bioballs? Or do adept rushes every game???? But wait, mines have also been buffed. And, for some reason, Banshees.
Of course, all these consequences might conceivably be worth if it there was a big, new concept that required these balance issues. But the big, new concept is just...making Storm, one of the most iconic abilities into the game, into yet another weak zoning tool? As if Protoss didn't already have zoning tools, and as if this change didn't make Storm strictly weaker even as a zoning tool?
Look, I've generally been pro-Balance Council and have defended them for many, many patches. I think they've come up with some good, interesting concepts, shaking things up while keeping the game reasonably balanced. I haven't believed in the Zerg Cabal conspiracy theories. But this proposed patch is utterly absurd, and in itself practically vindicates every claim ever made about the Balance Council being reactive and basing their changes around mob-dynamic buffing and nerfing of races.
Protoss, esp. Energy Overcharge, has been overtuned in the last patch: prominent pros were annoyed with Toss. Fine, fine. I think the claims are exaggerated, but retune Toss to make Clem happy. Buff Terran and Zerg with some cool new stuff of their own.
But the thing is, there are no interesting concepts in this proposed patch: the only way to read this is literally just Protoss being punished and nerfed into virtual unplayability. I can't imagine what kind of process would result in this patch. If this is the model for balancing, then something's clearly gone massively wrong somewhere.
Here's a very simple idea - make storm damage stack, keep the longer duration and damage. If you want storm to be a zoning tool, sure. But then let me storm an area and, if you walk through it, commit another storm to punish an overextension. Energy management on HT would become more important. It's an easy way to make the interaction with high templar both less punishing on quick initial burst damage and more skillful in that the decision-making on both sides becomes more important.
But if you're just going to 1A your army into mine through a choke point, let me storm that area 5 times and blow it to oblivion.
On September 19 2025 20:31 BisuDagger wrote: Yo, why are they picking on observers? Does someone have a good explanation as to why it’s not balanced if it stays cloaked? I apologize in advance is this was answered, but I haven’t read every comment.
If I had to guess it would be to balance out the HT rework so Protoss can't just zone out everything too easily. Makes the Observer weaker so Protoss defenses aren't just impenetrable. The HT may be too weak and not zone out anything but I believe that is the philosophy.
But the thing is, there are no interesting concepts in this proposed patch: the only way to read this is literally just Protoss being punished and nerfed into virtual unplayability. I can't imagine what kind of process would result in this patch. If this is the model for balancing, then something's clearly gone massively wrong somewhere.
It's the same process as every other non-Blizzard balance patch.
A bunch of people with no game design experience and no game development experience attempt to balance a complex strategy game, but end up making things worse because they haven't got a single fucking clue what they're doing.
EDIT:
I'll slightly walk that back because the very first patch that the balance clowncil did was good, but that's largely because they came at it with an incredibly focused/limited concept of what needed changing.
On September 19 2025 21:41 MiCroLiFe wrote: Perhaps terran can win vs protoss now?
Hopefully, the game has been quite terrible as of late. Why do they say it's purely a blizzard made patch though? I highly doubt anyone at Blizzard is still working on sc2, even part time, so why is there this rumor that the patch has not been made by the usual balance council?
It will be professional players who are maintaining contact with Blizzard through whatever communication channels they used before ESL started coordinating things.
Judging from the content of this PTR, I just can't tell whoever proposed these changes were serious about the game or not. The competitive part of SC2 has already dwindled so much that one terrible patch might trigger its collapse (the last one was pretty close to doing so). An even more drastic patch will be the one successfully finishing the job.
On September 19 2025 19:00 MJG wrote: Blizzard need to revert to one of their own patches (many of them were much more balanced than the current patch as per balance data readily available on Liquipedia) or else we're going to continue having year upon year of completely skewed tournament results stemming from poorly thought out, minimally tested design changes, like what we've had during this patch due to Energy Overcharge.
Two things: 1) The balance of the game is not independent of the map pool.
This is one of my biggest criticisms historically with Blizzard is that they make permanent changes to the game based on things being overly strong on a specific map pool. e.g. 2018 Raven nerf because Backwater let Terran players turtle on 4 bases for free which gave Maru (and only Maru) the gas needed to mass ravens.
2) You'd never get people to agree on when.
I'd go with the Blizzcon game state of 2017 as the last time the game felt balanced in all match ups, but choosing that would entail things like returning the Mothership Core and casting a negative light on the results of a lot of fan favorite players, so even if people agreed it was balanced, it would never be chosen.
EPT
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