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On July 19 2025 00:59 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2025 23:23 WombaT wrote:On July 18 2025 23:06 ejozl wrote:On July 18 2025 06:45 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On July 18 2025 00:17 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 16 2025 09:51 Waxangel wrote:
ByuN rode a favorable/abusive meta to his world championship you don't say? I mean, nobody wrote an article calling him a patch Terran. According to the goat of goat rankings byun in 2016 had one of the strongest years ever, due to winning the most money when other terrans absolutely did not. On one patch and he’s never won another Premier since. He won a major which I think arguably could have counted to be fair. There arguably isn’t another player with a more compelling case to be a ‘patch player’ than Byun. Still an incredible player, and still one of the great StarCraft 2 stories, absolutely a patch player. Unlike other patch players, it wasn’t a meta that covered a lack of skill, but accentuated an area he was atypically, incredibly good at. I mean Rogue is a far bigger patch zerg than ByuN is a patch terran imho, since Rogue basically only started winning when zerg became super strong (hydra patch in 2017, even Elazer got a semifinals at BlizzCon). ByuN was also good at TvT with tankivacs, he beat TY and other strong terrans at the time. Later on his wrist issues and terran being relatively bad prevented him from winning other tournaments, not that he was himself not good enough. Only Maru could win in forever most of the times for terran. Terrans and protoss couldn't really become patch T/P anymore because they were nerfed super quickly, while zerg kept on being strong so we even forgot about calling them patch Z since Z just stayed strong for 3 or 4 years straight, ever since 2019 (2017 and 2018 they were slightly stronger than other races, but it was manageable)
Rarely is a take so bad it matches your username. To call Rogue a patch Zerg is ridiculous and insulting to a player that has an argument for GOAT and is top 3 of all time.
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Northern Ireland27258 Posts
On July 19 2025 02:58 RogueTheGOAT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2025 23:23 WombaT wrote:On July 18 2025 23:06 ejozl wrote:On July 18 2025 06:45 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On July 18 2025 00:17 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 16 2025 09:51 Waxangel wrote:
ByuN rode a favorable/abusive meta to his world championship you don't say? I mean, nobody wrote an article calling him a patch Terran. According to the goat of goat rankings byun in 2016 had one of the strongest years ever, due to winning the most money when other terrans absolutely did not. On one patch and he’s never won another Premier since. He won a major which I think arguably could have counted to be fair. There arguably isn’t another player with a more compelling case to be a ‘patch player’ than Byun. Still an incredible player, and still one of the great StarCraft 2 stories, absolutely a patch player. Unlike other patch players, it wasn’t a meta that covered a lack of skill, but accentuated an area he was atypically, incredibly good at. That very much describes Scarlett and her IEM PyeongChang win.
I don’t even consider a ‘patch player’ to be that derogatory. It’s pretty cutthroat at the top, if a patch suits your style, or you figure out how to abuse it quicker, that can make the difference and it’s part of the game. Even with a beneficial patch you’ve still got to be bloody good to win Premiers.
So no shade from me, I’d rate Byun number one personally because he rode a favourable meta for him to a WC and a GSL.
On July 19 2025 04:36 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2025 00:59 Poopi wrote:On July 18 2025 23:23 WombaT wrote:On July 18 2025 23:06 ejozl wrote:On July 18 2025 06:45 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On July 18 2025 00:17 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 16 2025 09:51 Waxangel wrote:
ByuN rode a favorable/abusive meta to his world championship you don't say? I mean, nobody wrote an article calling him a patch Terran. According to the goat of goat rankings byun in 2016 had one of the strongest years ever, due to winning the most money when other terrans absolutely did not. On one patch and he’s never won another Premier since. He won a major which I think arguably could have counted to be fair. There arguably isn’t another player with a more compelling case to be a ‘patch player’ than Byun. Still an incredible player, and still one of the great StarCraft 2 stories, absolutely a patch player. Unlike other patch players, it wasn’t a meta that covered a lack of skill, but accentuated an area he was atypically, incredibly good at. I mean Rogue is a far bigger patch zerg than ByuN is a patch terran imho, since Rogue basically only started winning when zerg became super strong (hydra patch in 2017, even Elazer got a semifinals at BlizzCon). ByuN was also good at TvT with tankivacs, he beat TY and other strong terrans at the time. Later on his wrist issues and terran being relatively bad prevented him from winning other tournaments, not that he was himself not good enough. Only Maru could win in forever most of the times for terran. Terrans and protoss couldn't really become patch T/P anymore because they were nerfed super quickly, while zerg kept on being strong so we even forgot about calling them patch Z since Z just stayed strong for 3 or 4 years straight, ever since 2019 (2017 and 2018 they were slightly stronger than other races, but it was manageable) Rarely is a take so bad it matches your username. To call Rogue a patch Zerg is ridiculous and insulting to a player that has an argument for GOAT and is top 3 of all time.
Top 5, maybe :p
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This would not be a thread about SC if it did not lapse into a debate about balance and the GoaT.
That said, I'm excited to see whether this EWC might eventuate a shift in the GoaT ranking. For example, the unlikely event of Rogue winning it all would greatly bolster his claim, although I still think it would not suffice to put him above #3. Another improbable but interesting scenario would be Serral bombing out spectacularly and Maru winning the title, which would go a long way of closing the already small gap between them.
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United Arab Emirates5 Posts
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Think it's time to finally get another Protoss world champ! I'm picking a Mary v Clem TvP finals where Clem defends his title. Also Mary finally ends his losing streak vs Serral this tourny
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On July 20 2025 04:05 sc2turtlepants wrote:
Think it's time to finally get another Protoss world champ! I'm picking a Mary v Clem TvP finals where Clem defends his title. Also Mary finally ends his losing streak vs Serral this tourny
Clem winning the title with his Protoss off-race would actually be hilarious. Finally, another WC title for Protoss, but one achieved by a Terran main. If I were a Protoss player, this would trigger me into oblivion, haha.
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I don't know if any Koreans (or folks who speak Korean) are watching Crank's stream these days. He often has insights into what kind of form Korean players are in, especially Maru and Byun re: their ongoing injuries. Byun's injuries are more openly talked about since they seem to have some psychological triggers, but Maru's are less talked about. My uninformed perspective is that his injuries have significantly influenced his play over the last few years. There was some time after he had surgery or injections that he seemed to be back to normal but recently it's clear that he's in pain when he plays--he's constantly grabbing his shoulder like he used to back when he was injured. I believe Crank may have said at some point recently that Maru got a delay or exemption from his military service due to his shoulder injury.
Maru's play the last couple years gives me later career Mvp vibes in that it feels like he somewhat reduces extremely fast and micro-intensive multiprong attacks in favor of more strategic eco-boost gambles and sharp timing attacks. He seems to also mostly have given up on his late game turtling strategies. Some of this is surely due to meta shifts (in particular the harsh ghost supply increase). But I wonder how much of it is an honest acknowledgment that his normal aperture of being able to play almost any style of play very effectively is somewhat reduced due to his injuries.
That was a long post to basically say that I wouldn't be surprised to see Maru underperform expectations. I'm really excited to see what Classic, Rogue, and Reynor can do. Hero, Clem, and Serral I expect to be on point.
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On July 20 2025 06:28 rwala wrote:
I don't know if any Koreans (or folks who speak Korean) are watching Crank's stream these days. He often has insights into what kind of form Korean players are in, especially Maru and Byun re: their ongoing injuries. Byun's injuries are more openly talked about since they seem to have some psychological triggers, but Maru's are less talked about. My uninformed perspective is that his injuries have significantly influenced his play over the last few years. There was some time after he had surgery or injections that he seemed to be back to normal but recently it's clear that he's in pain when he plays--he's constantly grabbing his shoulder like he used to back when he was injured. I believe Crank may have said at some point recently that Maru got a delay or exemption from his military service due to his shoulder injury.
Maru's play the last couple years gives me later career Mvp vibes in that it feels like he somewhat reduces extremely fast and micro-intensive multiprong attacks in favor of more strategic eco-boost gambles and sharp timing attacks. He seems to also mostly have given up on his late game turtling strategies. Some of this is surely due to meta shifts (in particular the harsh ghost supply increase). But I wonder how much of it is an honest acknowledgment that his normal aperture of being able to play almost any style of play very effectively is somewhat reduced due to his injuries.
That was a long post to basically say that I wouldn't be surprised to see Maru underperform expectations. I'm really excited to see what Classic, Rogue, and Reynor can do. Hero, Clem, and Serral I expect to be on point.
I trust maru can do it. From the threads that were made about Crank's statements re maru's injuries, he got an exemption. This was prior to dh dallas, which he won.
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On July 19 2025 20:22 calyonrhodes wrote:
I haven’t been this excited for a tournament in a long time. This year, many players have a genuine chance to win, unlike last year’s EWC where Clem just felt unstoppable.
Iirc, he felt unstoppable during it, not before... especially after it was clear that he probably wouldn't face any Terrans throughout the tournament and his first win against Serral, who didn't lose a single match since winning Kato with a 20-1 map score.
And yeah, I also am super excited... for the first time it doesn't completely feel like that a tournament is either won by Clem or Serral... Dallas, when they both were kicked out rather surprisingly, was really important for that. To me, these two are still the favorites but it isn't as clear as usual. I am also super interested in how Rogue (first WC since military), Reynor (having mixed results lately) and Classic (Having beaten the whole top 10 except Maru in the last 2 months) and Maru (big question mark) will perform... yeah... just a really interesting setup this time.
On July 20 2025 05:07 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2025 04:05 sc2turtlepants wrote:
Think it's time to finally get another Protoss world champ! I'm picking a Mary v Clem TvP finals where Clem defends his title. Also Mary finally ends his losing streak vs Serral this tourny Clem winning the title with his Protoss off-race would actually be hilarious. Finally, another WC title for Protoss, but one achieved by a Terran main. If I were a Protoss player, this would trigger me into oblivion, haha.
Lol, good catch.. didn't even think about it like that before :D
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Russian Federation193 Posts
LOL GSL season 2 runner-up isn't an option in this poll )))
Go Rogue!
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Classic outperforming Clem in predictions on the front poll? The bookmakers slightly favor Clem over Serral though. Classic doesn't seem to be on their radar... perhaps this is an opportunity to go for a lucky shot :D
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On July 20 2025 19:51 EEk1TwEEk wrote:
LOL GSL season 2 runner-up isn't an option in this poll )))
Go Rogue!
to be fair the ranking wasnt an opinionated poll it was just ripped off aligulac. I do think Rogue has a real shot if he can dodge the top protoss players.
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On July 20 2025 14:40 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2025 20:22 calyonrhodes wrote:
I haven’t been this excited for a tournament in a long time. This year, many players have a genuine chance to win, unlike last year’s EWC where Clem just felt unstoppable.
Iirc, he felt unstoppable during it, not before... especially after it was clear that he probably wouldn't face any Terrans throughout the tournament and his first win against Serral, who didn't lose a single match since winning Kato with a 20-1 map score.
Yeah, saying that Clem "felt unstoppable" or entered EWC 2024 as the clear favorite is retrospective bias.
The overwhelming favorite for EWC 2024 was Serral, who won both major events leading up to EWC, Katowice 2024 and Dallas 2024, without losing a single series. Also we must remember that Serral's Katowice 2024 win even included a clean 3-0 sweep over Clem himself.
Clem became the favorite when it turned out that his TvZ was in peak form even by his standards and that he could avoid TvT altogether.
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On July 21 2025 00:46 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2025 14:40 PremoBeats wrote:On July 19 2025 20:22 calyonrhodes wrote:
I haven’t been this excited for a tournament in a long time. This year, many players have a genuine chance to win, unlike last year’s EWC where Clem just felt unstoppable.
Iirc, he felt unstoppable during it, not before... especially after it was clear that he probably wouldn't face any Terrans throughout the tournament and his first win against Serral, who didn't lose a single match since winning Kato with a 20-1 map score. Yeah, saying that Clem "felt unstoppable" or entered EWC 2024 as the clear favorite is retrospective bias. The overwhelming favorite for EWC 2024 was Serral, who won both major events leading up to EWC, Katowice 2024 and Dallas 2024, without losing a single series. Also we must remember that Serral's Katowice 2024 win even included a clean 3-0 sweep over Clem himself. Clem became the favorite when it turned out that his TvZ was in peak form even by his standards and that he could avoid TvT altogether.
Yeah, Serral was obviously the clear favorite at EWC. Serral in 2024 looked like he hit the single highest peak in SC2 that any player had ever achieved , until EWC. He won Katowice while losing only one map to Dark in some ZvZ coinflip.
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On July 21 2025 00:46 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2025 14:40 PremoBeats wrote:On July 19 2025 20:22 calyonrhodes wrote:
I haven’t been this excited for a tournament in a long time. This year, many players have a genuine chance to win, unlike last year’s EWC where Clem just felt unstoppable.
Iirc, he felt unstoppable during it, not before... especially after it was clear that he probably wouldn't face any Terrans throughout the tournament and his first win against Serral, who didn't lose a single match since winning Kato with a 20-1 map score. Yeah, saying that Clem "felt unstoppable" or entered EWC 2024 as the clear favorite is retrospective bias. The overwhelming favorite for EWC 2024 was Serral, who won both major events leading up to EWC, Katowice 2024 and Dallas 2024, without losing a single series. Also we must remember that Serral's Katowice 2024 win even included a clean 3-0 sweep over Clem himself. Clem became the favorite when it turned out that his TvZ was in peak form even by his standards and that he could avoid TvT altogether.
Didn't he drop a total of 3 maps in those two tournaments? 1 against Dark and 2 against Oliveira? Absolutely nuts run... especially as this was during his military time.
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most likely terran to win = Maru
most likely toss to win = Classic
most likely zerg to win = Serral
most likely overall = Classic
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On July 15 2025 07:09 dysenterymd wrote:
One of these players will win:
Serral, Clem, herO, Classic, Maru
Reynor tier:
Reynor + Zoun**
Can do some serious damage and make a deep run, but won't win:
Cure, SHIN, Rogue, Solar
Might have an okay run but won't pull any big upsets:
Showtime, Trigger, Astrea, ByuN, Zoun
Pretty much agree although I do think the Zergs not named Serral have a miniscule chance to win. Much more Solar and SHIN though.
Cure is going to crash out unless he found a magical TvP solution, and Showtime just needs to win 2 series against people he's beaten fairly recently to make the bracket.
Also think Zoun belongs in Reynor tier
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Northern Ireland27258 Posts
On July 21 2025 06:04 Agh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2025 07:09 dysenterymd wrote:
One of these players will win:
Serral, Clem, herO, Classic, Maru
Reynor tier:
Reynor + Zoun**
Can do some serious damage and make a deep run, but won't win:
Cure, SHIN, Rogue, Solar
Might have an okay run but won't pull any big upsets:
Showtime, Trigger, Astrea, ByuN, Zoun
Pretty much agree although I do think the Zergs not named Serral have a miniscule chance to win. Much more Solar and SHIN though. Cure is going to crash out unless he found a magical TvP solution, and Showtime just needs to win 2 series against people he's beaten fairly recently to make the bracket. Also think Zoun belongs in Reynor tier
I think Solar and SHIN need the bracket to play out in their favour, but I wouldn’t rule em out aye. I think they’re very dangerous, but assuming all of Serral, Clem and Maru are in good form, I can see them both being capable of beating them, but not all of them in a run.
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EPT
