EPTI mean, nobody wrote an article calling him a patch Terran.
Who will win EWC 2025? - Page 3
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RogueTheGOAT
166 Posts
I mean, nobody wrote an article calling him a patch Terran. | ||
Poopi
France12911 Posts
Rogue 2017 and Serral 2018 were also zerg favored, but not as much as zerg 2019 so people thought it was fine  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26361 Posts
On July 18 2025 09:13 Poopi wrote: Rogue 2017 and Serral 2018 were also zerg favored, but not as much as zerg 2019 so people thought it was fine Zerg was so OP in 2018 they didn’t even make a single GSL final | ||
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JJH777
United States4415 Posts
On July 18 2025 09:20 WombaT wrote: Zerg was so OP in 2018 they didn’t even make a single GSL final Zerg was so UP in 2018 they won the most money even if you subtract Serral's earnings completely. Rogue played so bad in every GSL that year. Especially the ro8 match vs Neeb. I think his GSL mental block was real or he would have made at least one finals. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1880 Posts
On July 18 2025 09:20 WombaT wrote: Zerg was so OP in 2018 they didn’t even make a single GSL final It's been the serral factor for almost a decade now. I mean, what, 8 years of dominance? Him being an outlier. Incredible stuff really. | ||
Gluon
Netherlands410 Posts
On July 15 2025 12:18 CicadaSC wrote: HOT TAKE: Serral is NOT a favorite. He showed weakness at Dallas. Now, Clem and Reynor are both in Korea and have been for some time. Who is Serral going to practice ZvT or ZvZ with? No offense but the others he can play with on EU are not on their level. If he was already looking shaky I don't see this helping him. I think Clem and Reynor over the past month, have been looking vulnerable as well. Some say it is because they are hiding builds and to that I have no comment. Maybe it is the case and that's why they've been losing, maybe it's something deeper. We can't know that. Though, I think Maru has to be considered a favorite. The last big lan that had all the players, he won. BGE didn't have all top players, and neither did GSL. They were hard tournaments yes but the roster wasn't as thorough as DreamHack Dallas. Maru #1 fave. I always thought this too but then one of the pros told me Serral just plays against two b-tier pros in archon mode. That suddenly lets you practice against an opponent with the macro and map activity of someone like Clem, without needing Clem.. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16058 Posts
On July 18 2025 14:42 CicadaSC wrote: It's been the serral factor for almost a decade now. I mean, what, 8 years of dominance? Him being an outlier. Incredible stuff really. I mean, Zerg was clearly the best performing race from 2019 to 2022 even disregarding Serral. He wasn't even the best Zerg for large periods during those years. For 2017-2018 and 2023 onwards I agree though that Zerg was pretty balanced (some say UP currently but I think that's just as baseless as saying they were OP in 2018 considering many other Zergs still make deep runs). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26361 Posts
On July 18 2025 09:35 JJH777 wrote: Zerg was so UP in 2018 they won the most money even if you subtract Serral's earnings completely. Rogue played so bad in every GSL that year. Especially the ro8 match vs Neeb. I think his GSL mental block was real or he would have made at least one finals. Are regionals not skewing that? Or a few big money tournaments, or indeed just top-heavy prize pools? 3 different Toss made GSL finals, and we had a TvT final. PvZ Blizzcon final, and GSLvsTW. Just off the top of my head. And I’ve in the past scanned a bunch of 2018 tournaments and the Ro8/Ro4 representation fluctuates quite a lot as well. 2018 was quite a good year for parity. Arguably one of the better ones. Toss may have been the most consistently competitive with different players contributing, a bunch of finals but few golds. Hell you’ve got a foreign Toss doing well in GSL. Serral went monster mode, but other Zs contributed heavily. Not one of Terran’s strongest periods overall, but they still were a factor and Maru having one of the all-time years saw them perform well in the gold medal column at least. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26361 Posts
On July 18 2025 18:47 Charoisaur wrote: I mean, Zerg was clearly the best performing race from 2019 to 2022 even disregarding Serral. He wasn't even the best Zerg for large periods during those years. For 2017-2018 and 2023 onwards I agree though that Zerg was pretty balanced (some say UP currently but I think that's just as baseless as saying they were OP in 2018 considering many other Zergs still make deep runs). I think other Zergs, relative to Serral were at their strongest when ZvP was at its most imbalanced. Which includes part of the period, if not necessarily all of it, that you’re talking about. If you’re already the ZvP GOAT (and IMO have the strongest single matchup the game’s seen) and close to invincible in the matchup at times, playing in an imbalanced meta is a boost, but not a huge one. It does however help other Zergs quite a bit to reliably beat Toss, and at times some of those Zergs may have been as good or better at ZvZ, or indeed ZvT than Serral. Now, it’s hard to tell how the pendulum has swung. In theory Serral being so good at ZvP should give him that edge back, given overall Toss have got a bump in the matchup. But his mastery of the attritional late game seems really bloody hard to pull off reliably. | ||
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
On July 18 2025 22:04 WombaT wrote: I think other Zergs, relative to Serral were at their strongest when ZvP was at its most imbalanced. Which includes part of the period, if not necessarily all of it, that you’re talking about. If you’re already the ZvP GOAT (and IMO have the strongest single matchup the game’s seen) and close to invincible in the matchup at times, playing in an imbalanced meta is a boost, but not a huge one. It does however help other Zergs quite a bit to reliably beat Toss, and at times some of those Zergs may have been as good or better at ZvZ, or indeed ZvT than Serral. Now, it’s hard to tell how the pendulum has swung. In theory Serral being so good at ZvP should give him that edge back, given overall Toss have got a bump in the matchup. But his mastery of the attritional late game seems really bloody hard to pull off reliably. Because ZvZ has been Serral's weakness in the past, I think people are severely underestimating Serral's ZvZ right now. Yes, it's a volatile matchup, but Serral has lost a single ZvZ in 2024 and 2025 combined (to Dark) and is a ludicrous 24-3 in maps against Reynor since losing to him in HSC 2 years ago. Not to say he can't lose, Solar was very close recently, but imo ZvZ is Serral's best matchup. Classic, herO (okay maybe not herO, he's looked lost v Z recently) and maybe even Zoun are much more dangerous to Serral than Reynor and Solar. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3482 Posts
On July 18 2025 06:45 RogueTheGOAT wrote: I mean, nobody wrote an article calling him a patch Terran. According to the goat of goat rankings byun in 2016 had one of the strongest years ever, due to winning the most money when other terrans absolutely did not. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3482 Posts
On July 17 2025 19:23 jodljodl wrote: Off the top of my head, I don't think so. It's awesome, isn't it? This is what balance looks like, 3 races are able to rake up more players than if there're only 2 races.. also, I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with a tvz finals followed by a protoss nerf. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26361 Posts
On July 18 2025 22:42 dysenterymd wrote: Because ZvZ has been Serral's weakness in the past, I think people are severely underestimating Serral's ZvZ right now. Yes, it's a volatile matchup, but Serral has lost a single ZvZ in 2024 and 2025 combined (to Dark) and is a ludicrous 24-3 in maps against Reynor since losing to him in HSC 2 years ago. Not to say he can't lose, Solar was very close recently, but imo ZvZ is Serral's best matchup. Classic, herO (okay maybe not herO, he's looked lost v Z recently) and maybe even Zoun are much more dangerous to Serral than Reynor and Solar. Just Serral things really. Even now he’s still got a 58% match win rate to Clem, 68% with Reynor. His ZvZ is super strong, I think he could conceivably have a bad day and lose to any of the EWC Zergs. I wouldn’t bet on it, but I can see that happening. ZvT, I genuinely don’t see him losing to anyone who isn’t Clem, or Maru. I know Maru’s record is awful against Serral lately, but if he’s rested, and he’s got some fun stuff up his sleeves, he could do it. Last time out, in an awful map in Radhuset Maru almost managed it. For me, one of the all-time greatest sets in terms of sheer level of play. If Maru can play like that for a few sets, he might be able to do it. ZvP, I don’t know. I’ve seen Serral struggle more than he usually does the last few months, but he’s disappeared since and has been cooking presumably. We’ll have to see what he’s cooked up. It sounds completely bonkers, despite his past record I can still see him going into EWC with ZvZ as his Achilles Heel. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26361 Posts
On July 18 2025 23:06 ejozl wrote: According to the goat of goat rankings byun in 2016 had one of the strongest years ever, due to winning the most money when other terrans absolutely did not. On one patch and he’s never won another Premier since. He won a major which I think arguably could have counted to be fair. There arguably isn’t another player with a more compelling case to be a ‘patch player’ than Byun. Still an incredible player, and still one of the great StarCraft 2 stories, absolutely a patch player. Unlike other patch players, it wasn’t a meta that covered a lack of skill, but accentuated an area he was atypically, incredibly good at. | ||
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TeamMamba
199 Posts
I guess we should all start calling mvp for a patch terran since he dominates when Terrans were heavily favourite Let’s also call innovation a patch terran too since he won all his GsL during HoTS when Terran widow mines were op and broken as fuck Maru also had his fame increased due to proxy patch. Hell let’s just call everyone a patch player | ||
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Poopi
France12911 Posts
On July 18 2025 23:23 WombaT wrote: On one patch and he’s never won another Premier since. He won a major which I think arguably could have counted to be fair. There arguably isn’t another player with a more compelling case to be a ‘patch player’ than Byun. Still an incredible player, and still one of the great StarCraft 2 stories, absolutely a patch player. Unlike other patch players, it wasn’t a meta that covered a lack of skill, but accentuated an area he was atypically, incredibly good at. I mean Rogue is a far bigger patch zerg than ByuN is a patch terran imho, since Rogue basically only started winning when zerg became super strong (hydra patch in 2017, even Elazer got a semifinals at BlizzCon). ByuN was also good at TvT with tankivacs, he beat TY and other strong terrans at the time. Later on his wrist issues and terran being relatively bad prevented him from winning other tournaments, not that he was himself not good enough. Only Maru could win in forever most of the times for terran. Terrans and protoss couldn't really become patch T/P anymore because they were nerfed super quickly, while zerg kept on being strong so we even forgot about calling them patch Z since Z just stayed strong for 3 or 4 years straight, ever since 2019 (2017 and 2018 they were slightly stronger than other races, but it was manageable) | ||
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Lorch
Germany3691 Posts
Last big SC2 championship will also be won by Toss. Seems like peotry to me  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26361 Posts
On July 19 2025 00:59 Poopi wrote: I mean Rogue is a far bigger patch zerg than ByuN is a patch terran imho, since Rogue basically only started winning when zerg became super strong (hydra patch in 2017, even Elazer got a semifinals at BlizzCon). ByuN was also good at TvT with tankivacs, he beat TY and other strong terrans at the time. Later on his wrist issues and terran being relatively bad prevented him from winning other tournaments, not that he was himself not good enough. Only Maru could win in forever most of the times for terran. Terrans and protoss couldn't really become patch T/P anymore because they were nerfed super quickly, while zerg kept on being strong so we even forgot about calling them patch Z since Z just stayed strong for 3 or 4 years straight, ever since 2019 (2017 and 2018 they were slightly stronger than other races, but it was manageable) The cope in this post is like, off the charts. Byun got massively outperformed not just by Maru, but TY as well subsequently. Cure as well. Hell Gumiho is inconsistent but has a GSL subsequently and some other tournies Rogue’s still making GSL finals in 2025 after military, Byun hasnt threatened to do that in closing in a decade. Byun was only ever an S tier player on one patch. He didn’t win before, he hasn’t won since. He’s as definitional a patch player as you can hope to see in the wild. He’s still very good. ‘Merely’ being A tier still means you’re incredible at the game, but he’s an A tier player. All his results point to that. Before his 2016 and after it. | ||
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RogueTheGOAT
166 Posts
On July 18 2025 23:23 WombaT wrote: On one patch and he’s never won another Premier since. He won a major which I think arguably could have counted to be fair. There arguably isn’t another player with a more compelling case to be a ‘patch player’ than Byun. Still an incredible player, and still one of the great StarCraft 2 stories, absolutely a patch player. Unlike other patch players, it wasn’t a meta that covered a lack of skill, but accentuated an area he was atypically, incredibly good at. That very much describes Scarlett and her IEM PyeongChang win. | ||
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toinewx
53 Posts
As for Clem and Serral, they will choke. That's my prediction. TLDR: Korean winning, Foreigners choking. Let's check back in 1 week | ||
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