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On January 26 2025 12:03 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2025 11:49 FataLe wrote:On January 24 2025 09:08 CicadaSC wrote:On January 23 2025 14:38 FataLe wrote:
I really liked the Serral Astrea game where Serral got 360'd and still managed to win! That's because the matchup is reasonably protoss favored. Serral outskills at the end of the day though to make up for the imbalance. Getting 360'd was Serral being out skilled in terms of positioning, for a series of moments, inside a single game, not because Protoss is favoured. It's very difficult to get 360'd by a Protoss due to how slow their army movement is. Which is why you'll only see single flank, behind the lines warp-ins or wrap arounds. But almost never a full surround. I can't say I follow your thought process here. yeah it doesn't quite work like that. you cant pinpoint a single moment because balance effects the entire game and likely made Astrea even able to get in that position possible in the first place. When Serral says something is imbalanced you dont question it, you accept he knows more about the matchup than you, which he does.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you can blame balance for Serral being out positioned there, in a series he went 4-0 in. I take your point about balance affecting everything, but I don't think that imbalance allowed Astrea to 360 Serral. Astrea is a clever player and catches superior players out all the time. I think you're removing personal agency when you say that, due to imbalance alone, Astrea was able to out position Serral for a series of moments, in a single game. Follow your logic to it's conclusion, does this mean that anyone below Serral's level that plays Protoss (So, everyone) can't EVER have a superior moment in a game, OR that Serral can't EVER make a mistake against such an opponent, for a single moment, in a game? Serral is good, but nobody is THAT good. To your final point, even if Serral believes the match-up to be imbalanced (which has it's own problems, such as appeal to authority fallacy as well as potential bias implications), even if true, that wouldn't invalidate my point, nor prove yours. Sorry mate, I'm not convinced. I don't see it that way at all.
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On January 26 2025 13:43 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2025 12:03 CicadaSC wrote:On January 26 2025 11:49 FataLe wrote:On January 24 2025 09:08 CicadaSC wrote:On January 23 2025 14:38 FataLe wrote:
I really liked the Serral Astrea game where Serral got 360'd and still managed to win! That's because the matchup is reasonably protoss favored. Serral outskills at the end of the day though to make up for the imbalance. Getting 360'd was Serral being out skilled in terms of positioning, for a series of moments, inside a single game, not because Protoss is favoured. It's very difficult to get 360'd by a Protoss due to how slow their army movement is. Which is why you'll only see single flank, behind the lines warp-ins or wrap arounds. But almost never a full surround. I can't say I follow your thought process here. yeah it doesn't quite work like that. you cant pinpoint a single moment because balance effects the entire game and likely made Astrea even able to get in that position possible in the first place. When Serral says something is imbalanced you dont question it, you accept he knows more about the matchup than you, which he does. I'm sorry, but I don't think you can blame balance for Serral being out positioned there, in a series he went 4-0 in. I take your point about balance affecting everything, but I don't think that imbalance allowed Astrea to 360 Serral. Astrea is a clever player and catches superior players out all the time. I think you're removing personal agency when you say that, due to imbalance alone, Astrea was able to out position Serral for a series of moments, in a single game. Follow your logic to it's conclusion, does this mean that anyone below Serral's level that plays Protoss (So, everyone) can't EVER have a superior moment in a game, OR that Serral can't EVER make a mistake against such an opponent, for a single moment, in a game? Serral is good, but nobody is THAT good. To your final point, even if Serral believes the match-up to be imbalanced (which has it's own problems, such as appeal to authority fallacy as well as potential bias implications), even if true, that wouldn't invalidate my point, nor prove yours. Sorry mate, I'm not convinced. I don't see it that way at all.
Serral being out of position is whats balanced or imbalanced? what are you even talking about man? Are you purposefully misinterpreting what I'm trying to say? My point is that PvZ being reasonably protoss favored allowed for this situation to be possible in the first place. No i'm not sying balance is why serral was out of position. I don't know if I can really make my point any more clear. Either way, i am not good enough to personally state on balance, as I make plenty of my own mistakes when I play, and I'm guessing you do too so we should probably refer to the experts on this, aka the Serrals, Clems, and Maxpax's of the world. If any of them dispute serrals claims and say pvz is zerg favored be sure to let me know, or really any pro at all because I haven't heard it. It's odd to me when random people on the forums claim to have a better understanding of balance than the people who play this game for a living.
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On January 27 2025 13:25 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2025 13:43 FataLe wrote:On January 26 2025 12:03 CicadaSC wrote:On January 26 2025 11:49 FataLe wrote:On January 24 2025 09:08 CicadaSC wrote:On January 23 2025 14:38 FataLe wrote:
I really liked the Serral Astrea game where Serral got 360'd and still managed to win! That's because the matchup is reasonably protoss favored. Serral outskills at the end of the day though to make up for the imbalance. Getting 360'd was Serral being out skilled in terms of positioning, for a series of moments, inside a single game, not because Protoss is favoured. It's very difficult to get 360'd by a Protoss due to how slow their army movement is. Which is why you'll only see single flank, behind the lines warp-ins or wrap arounds. But almost never a full surround. I can't say I follow your thought process here. yeah it doesn't quite work like that. you cant pinpoint a single moment because balance effects the entire game and likely made Astrea even able to get in that position possible in the first place. When Serral says something is imbalanced you dont question it, you accept he knows more about the matchup than you, which he does. I'm sorry, but I don't think you can blame balance for Serral being out positioned there, in a series he went 4-0 in. I take your point about balance affecting everything, but I don't think that imbalance allowed Astrea to 360 Serral. Astrea is a clever player and catches superior players out all the time. I think you're removing personal agency when you say that, due to imbalance alone, Astrea was able to out position Serral for a series of moments, in a single game. Follow your logic to it's conclusion, does this mean that anyone below Serral's level that plays Protoss (So, everyone) can't EVER have a superior moment in a game, OR that Serral can't EVER make a mistake against such an opponent, for a single moment, in a game? Serral is good, but nobody is THAT good. To your final point, even if Serral believes the match-up to be imbalanced (which has it's own problems, such as appeal to authority fallacy as well as potential bias implications), even if true, that wouldn't invalidate my point, nor prove yours. Sorry mate, I'm not convinced. I don't see it that way at all. Serral being out of position is whats balanced or imbalanced? what are you even talking about man? Are you purposefully misinterpreting what I'm trying to say? My point is that PvZ being reasonably protoss favored allowed for this situation to be possible in the first place. No i'm not sying balance is why serral was out of position. I don't know if I can really make my point any more clear. Either way, i am not good enough to personally state on balance, as I make plenty of my own mistakes when I play, and I'm guessing you do too so we should probably refer to the experts on this, aka the Serrals, Clems, and Maxpax's of the world. If any of them dispute serrals claims and say pvz is zerg favored be sure to let me know, or really any pro at all because I haven't heard it. It's odd to me when random people on the forums claim to have a better understanding of balance than the people who play this game for a living.
What I'm seeing is your argument basically amounts to you robbing every Protoss of any personal agency whatsoever this patch and you justify your position using bias and fallacy. When Serral goes 4-0 in a series it's because it's skill (fair enough), but when that opponent has a single cool moment (which that player is actually known for against better players, mind you*) in the series, you think it's due to imbalance. Sorry Astrea, that really cool out maneuvering you did there actually meant nothing because Cicada watched an interview of Reynor and Serral saying that Protoss is favoured in the matchup so anything you do doesn't actually count this patch and genuine mistakes aren't possible as a Z this patch either, despite the community having a meltdown over this very patch due to the pro's on the balance team's bias' and politcal sway (again, appeal to authority fallacy). I'll say it again, even if the match-up IS imbalanced, that doesn't prove your point, nor does it invalidate mine. There's no point trying to point to them to help you here. Ultimately though, I'm just wondering how you actually think, in a series that Serral absolutely dominated, that one of the only cool moments the Protoss managed to actually pull off is because the match up is Protoss favoured and Serral doesn't make mistakes and cannot, even for a single moment, be outplayed by a Protoss this patch. Alright mate, well good luck with that.
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EPT
